New Mechanic: The Rage Effect

Immortal

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#1
Clash Tournaments with the video explanation.

Basically all characters now deal higher knockback when they themselves are at higher %. A similar feature is found in Tekken games so Harada is probably responsible.

Important to note that this does not affect damage.

Edit: People like ChillySundance can't read so I'm making it bigger. This does not affect damage. It's knockback. Not damage. Damage is a different thing. Plz.

If you're at high percent and your opponent is at low percent, it's a mixed bag. More knockback pushes your opponent further away, but it also makes you do more hitstun (in all smash games, knockback is proportional to hitstun). I know a 0% Mario against a 0% opponent often can't combo dthrow to utilt because of insufficient hitstun (just barely drops, like 1f too little hitstun), but a high percent Mario might be able to make that link. I'm not sure for combo purposes this system is really going to make a difference in terms of the volume of what's possible; it will be more likely another variable to make things situationally different so your combos have to be more organic and less training mode memorized.
One interpretation from Reddit:

I like this. It's new, it makes KOing easier, and it actually sort of helps with balancing a scenario in which someone is a stock ahead of the other. The person with a stock lead but with high percent only has increased knockback, so that coupled with vectoring could disallow some combo potential at earlier percents, making it harder for you to increase your lead. Meanwhile, if the opponent with the stock deficit is having trouble getting the kill and is taking a bit of harass as a result, getting hit will directly make getting the kill easier.
 
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Chiroz

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#5
Ok, now this mechanic. I like it!

I wonder if it scales with weight, because otherwise heavier characters who can survive longer will get more use of this mechanic. Someone should test if it does scale with weight.
 
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Signia

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#8
Yet another variable to consider when wondering how far something will knockback? First VI, now this?

Btw, in those "what mechanic would ruin Smash 4 for you" threads on reddit I said it would be comeback mechanics. It's not as bad as giving you an advantage for being down on stocks, though. In fact, this could be used to keep leads. A big part of the game is "getting extra credit," where you are closely tied in percentage until someone gets a kill. The opponent with a fresh stock must finish their opponent off in order restore the balance, while the other player tries to at least tack on a bit of percentage so they can have the advantage once they die.

The primary way of keeping leads in close matches just got buffed.

But, it's still a comeback mechanic within each stock. If I land a 60% Mario Dthrow combo, hit them with a few bairs and they're at 95% and I'm at zero, my knockback is gimped because I'm at 0%, so I can't kill for another 30%, while my opponent now has an easier time racking up damage just because I hit them first. It'll take less hits for them to do the same damage as it usually would, just because I'm in lead? Bad design for testing skills. Not the end of the world, though.

Edit: stop liking this post people, it's mostly wrong. Damage doesn't increase, only knockback.
 
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#9
Depending on how much this effect actual gameplay will decide if I will buy a WiiU and Smash4

I've always said inconstant elements in knock back or hit stun would make me not buy the game and here we are.

What have you done Sakurai, what have you done....

edit: ~sighs after a few minutes to collecting himself~ What needs to happen now is someone need to figure out the formula of increase for attacks knockback from 0% to 150% as clearly it's not static. Once we know that then everyone worth their salt will have to memorize the rate of knockback scaling with their percentage and the knock back typically seen at their opponent percentage.

Best case scenario this just make the game overall deeper, worst we will all wonder how come we can't kill or combo when we should and blame it on this.
 
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#10
ehhhhh, I really hate game mechanics that reward and offer handicaps to a player for losing/messing up (ironc I know since I do main Lucario) but it doesn't look like it's particularly strong. Not X-factor leagues of bs anyway.
If someone is at a high percent because they are legitimately losing/messing up, there's a high chance they're going to keep losing/messing up, so rewarding them with more knockback is pretty meaningless. If someone is at a high percent because they are getting read/vectoring badly/having bad movement/what have you, they can still use that reward to make a comeback and as you said the effects aren't strong enough to make that comeback guaranteed.

I don't really see a reason to hate this yet.

Yet another variable to consider when wondering how far something will knockback? First VI, now this?

Btw, in those "what mechanic would ruin Smash 4 for you" threads on reddit I said it would be comeback mechanics. It's not as bad as giving you an advantage for being down on stocks, though. In fact, this could be used to keep leads. A big part of the game is "getting extra credit," where you are closely tied in percentage until someone gets a kill. The opponent with a fresh stock must finish their opponent off in order restore the balance, while the other player tries to at least tack on a bit of percentage so they can have the advantage once they die.

The primary way of keeping leads in close matches just got buffed.
You know those situations where someone kills you, and you come back and immediately kill them? THAT got buffed. Like raykz said, this doesn't have anything to do with damage dealt. If you fail to immediately kill them though your moves will start staling and they will cement their win even harder.
 
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Chiroz

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#11
Yet another variable to consider when wondering how far something will knockback? First VI, now this?

Btw, in those "what mechanic would ruin Smash 4 for you" threads on reddit I said it would be comeback mechanics. It's not as bad as giving you an advantage for being down on stocks, though. In fact, this could be used to keep leads. A big part of the game is "getting extra credit," where you are closely tied in percentage until someone gets a kill. The opponent with a fresh stock must finish their opponent off in order restore the balance, while the other player tries to at least tack on a bit of percentage so they can have the advantage once they die.

The primary way of keeping leads in close matches just got buffed.

But, it's still a comeback mechanic within each stock. If I land a 60% Mario Dthrow combo, hit them with a few bairs and they're at 95% and I'm at zero, my knockback is gimped because I'm at 0%, so I can't kill for another 30%, while my opponent now has an easier time racking up damage just because I hit them first. It'll take less hits for them to do the same damage as it usually would, just because I'm in lead? Bad design for testing skills. Not the end of the world, though.


I think this mechanic only affects knockback, not damage. Which would mean it would be harder for him to combo you since he is at a higher % than if he was at a low %. It helps you keep the lead for playing well, and also kind of allows him to catch up to your lead once you are 1 stock ahead. I think this will be a fun mechanic.
 
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KuroganeHammer

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#12
Here's some tests using handicap vs 100% Jiggs vs 300% Zelda's Bthrow:

300% - 119 KB
200% - 119 KB
150% - 119 KB
125% - 116 KB
100% - 112 KB
80% - 109 KB
60% - 107 KB
50% - 105 KB
40% - 104 KB
30% - 103 KB
20% - 103 KB
10% - 103 KB
0% - 103 KB

while my opponent now has an easier time racking up damage
Calm down, it only affects knockback.

Edit:

omg the tears in this thread, all of you are reported.
 
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Chiroz

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#13
Here's some tests using handicap vs 100% Jiggs vs 300% Zelda's Bthrow:

300% - 119 KB
200% - 119 KB
150% - 119 KB
125% - 116 KB
100% - 112 KB
80% - 109 KB
60% - 107 KB
50% - 105 KB
40% - 104 KB
30% - 103 KB
20% - 103 KB
10% - 103 KB
0% - 103 KB


Calm down, it only affects knockback.

Edit:

omg the tears in this thread, all of you are reported.


It builds faster in mid %'s from 50-150% basically, before 50% it builds very slow and after 150% it basically stops. This mechanic seems to have been implemented to help players KO easier so people don't survive until 200%.
 

Amazing Ampharos

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#14
I decided to test this out with the demo. It's definitely a very real though not very strong mechanic. I kept using Mario's dash attack (the strong initial hitbox) against a 0% Pikachu for a variety of Mario percentages. This move has a fairly high base knockback so it was a good test case; I recorded the knockback as reported by the "max launcher speed" in the end of game statistics (which notably use very, very different values than Brawl used; these numbers would be in the thousands in Brawl!). Here's my data table:

Mario's fresh dash attack (strong hitbox that does 8%) against a 0% Pikachu:

Mario Percent Pikachu launch force
0% 72
36% 72
38% 72
40% 72
45% 73
48% 73
53% 74
66% 75
71% 75
74% 76
81% 76
85% 77
95% 78
103% 78
111% 79
118% 80
128% 81
144% 82
159% 83

It seems that it starts taking effect at some percentage greater than 0%, probably around 40% with each 10% damage Mario takes adding about 1.4% to the total knockback. This probably caps out at some point, but level 9 Pikachu gets hard to survive against at these very high percentages so I can't find the cap value easily though it seems to be at least 15% extra knockback in the 150s of percents. For sanity I repeated the same test with Mario usmash but only got a two values:

0% 41
70% 43

This is about congruent with the dash attack results and notably confirms that the knockback is scaled as a percentage of the original knockback and not as an absolute value (since Mario's usmash has a lot less knockback against a 0% Pikachu than his dash attack, the total knockback added by being at 70% is less).

I can also confirm that being down a stock has no effect at all on this system; I died to Pikachu and hit with a fresh hit at 0%, and it was back to good old 72. This effect is also totally non-random; I always got very consistent results for any given percentage range with no unexpected variation. This testing was very aggrevating to do since the AI didn't really cooperate at all, but this should paint a very clear picture of exactly how this mechanic works.

EDIT: Aerodrome beat me to the punch, but I gathered a whole lot more data and didn't cheat with the full game and its bountiful resources so, uh, there!
 
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#15
Here's some tests using handicap vs 100% Jiggs vs 300% Zelda's Bthrow:

300% - 119 KB
200% - 119 KB
150% - 119 KB
125% - 116 KB
100% - 112 KB
80% - 109 KB
60% - 107 KB
50% - 105 KB
40% - 104 KB
30% - 103 KB
20% - 103 KB
10% - 103 KB
0% - 103 KB


Calm down, it only affects knockback.

Edit:

omg the tears in this thread, all of you are reported.
T___T t-thank you Aerodrome-sama
 

Chiroz

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#17
I dig it. I'm digging everything so far in Smash 4. :applejack:

Yep, I am liking this mechanic. It's literally there to help you KO. The actual effect is so subtle that you won't care about it if you are low % and your opponent is high %, but you will be excited when both of you are higher %.
 

ChillySundance

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#18
If someone is at a high percent because they are legitimately losing/messing up, there's a high chance they're going to keep losing/messing up, so rewarding them with more knockback is pretty meaningless. If someone is at a high percent because they are getting read/vectoring badly/having bad movement/what have you, they can still use that reward to make a comeback and as you said the effects aren't strong enough to make that comeback guaranteed.

I don't really see a reason to hate this yet.



You know those situations where someone kills you, and you come back and immediately kill them? THAT got buffed. Like raykz said, this doesn't have anything to do with damage dealt. If you fail to immediately kill them though your moves will start staling and they will cement their win even harder.
As a matter of principle though, you shouldn't be getting rewarded for Ki'ing badly/having bad movement/what have you. If you're getting hit, you're messing up. You shouldn't be rewarded with extra damage because you're 'behind'. That kind of handicapping is both uncompetitive and disrespectful to players. (aw you poor baby, you're losing? Here, let me give you a damage boost so you can have a chance at winning instead of making an entirely skill-based comeback.)
 

Immortal

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#20
If you're getting hit, you're messing up. You shouldn't be rewarded with extra damage because you're 'behind'. That kind of handicapping is both uncompetitive and disrespectful to players. (aw you poor baby, you're losing? Here, let me give you a damage boost so you can have a chance at winning instead of making an entirely skill-based comeback.)
Again everyone please pay attention. This does not give you extra damage, it gives you knockback, which actually makes it harder for you to deal damage.
 
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SixSaw

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#21
Yep, I am liking this mechanic. It's literally there to help you KO. The actual effect is so subtle that you won't care about it if you are low % and your opponent is high %, but you will be excited when both of you are higher %.
And what if you are at high percent and your opponent is at low percent? Most of your combos are now less effective? Not a fan of this at all.
 

Metal B

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#22
And what if you are at high percent and your opponent is at low percent? Most of your combos are now less effective? Not a fan of this at all.
But if gives you an advantage, the more damage you can deal to your opponent, since you have an easier time KOing them now. So if your dominating hard, you get bonus knockback in the end.
 
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#23
This will be really interesting

If the gap between players is small, it can help make the lead smaller. HOWEVER
If the player in the lead racks up enough damage and the losing player is unable to finish him, the player in the lead -- with his rage buff -- could take another stock, thus putting him two stocks ahead.

I think this is a very fun mechanic, as even though it helps players close the gap, if you play really well it can actually help you get even more ahead. This puts tension on the whole match as a result as the losing player doesn't want that to happen, while also helping reducing the winning players' lead. Overall I think matches will be a lot closer and more intense and we will get the occasional epic match where someone gets a lead and dominates with his rage buff.
 
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ChillySundance

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#24
Again everyone please pay attention. This does not give you extra damage, it gives you knockback, which actually makes it harder for you to deal damage.
since "true" combos in this game tend to dissolve at 30% for most characters, it's not like this will do anything but aid you once your opponents are already flying/KI'ing past the follow up mark. More knockback is definitely what you want at higher percentages, since KOing is hard due to Ki, recovery and blast zones
 

Amazing Ampharos

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#25
Yeah, Mario's fresh dash attack does 8% damage no matter what percentage Mario is at (you can do 6% if you get the late hit which was extremely aggrevating for testing since it has very slightly weaker knockback; 71 at 0% instead of 72).

If you're at high percent and your opponent is at low percent, it's a mixed bag. More knockback pushes your opponent further away, but it also makes you do more hitstun (in all smash games, knockback is proportional to hitstun). I know a 0% Mario against a 0% opponent often can't combo dthrow to utilt because of insufficient hitstun (just barely drops, like 1f too little hitstun), but a high percent Mario might be able to make that link. I'm not sure for combo purposes this system is really going to make a difference in terms of the volume of what's possible; it will be more likely another variable to make things situationally different so your combos have to be more organic and less training mode memorized.
 
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ChillySundance

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#27
Either way it will be interesting to see how it affects hitstun against low % opponents and also if it has a 'cap' at all (like Aura buff)
 

SixSaw

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#29
But if gives you an advantage, the more damage you can deal to your opponent, since you have an easier time KOing them now. So if your dominating hard, you get bonus knockback in the end.
"Bonus knockback" is not necessarily an advantage vs low% opponents. Unless it makes the difference between killing or not, lower knockback is more conducive to comboing and building damage. I see this as condemning high percent characters whether they be ahead or behind to a hit and run playstyle which is just less fun and interesting for everyone involved.

Not to mention this mechanic further erodes the relationship between on-screen percentage and how far characters will actually fly when struck, which imo is just a poor design choice.
 

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#31
you're not getting extra damage saugdakjfge uvsukdj bjxewlg;h
If you're at high percent and your opponent is at low percent, it's a mixed bag. More knockback pushes your opponent further away, but it also makes you do more hitstun (in all smash games, knockback is proportional to hitstun).
These bear repeating. :applejack:
 
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KuroganeHammer

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#32
"Bonus knockback" is not necessarily an advantage vs low% opponents. Unless it makes the difference between killing or not, lower knockback is more conducive to comboing and building damage. I see this as condemning high percent characters whether they be ahead or behind to a hit and run playstyle which is just less fun and interesting for everyone involved.

Not to mention this mechanic further erodes the relationship between on-screen percentage and how far characters will actually fly when struck, which imo is just a poor design choice.
ugh you're not reading either.

Why is no one in this thread reading?

pls read this quote

...... pls. ;___;
If you're at high percent and your opponent is at low percent, it's a mixed bag. More knockback pushes your opponent further away, but it also makes you do more hitstun (in all smash games, knockback is proportional to hitstun). I know a 0% Mario against a 0% opponent often can't combo dthrow to utilt because of insufficient hitstun (just barely drops, like 1f too little hitstun), but a high percent Mario might be able to make that link. I'm not sure for combo purposes this system is really going to make a difference in terms of the volume of what's possible; it will be more likely another variable to make things situationally different so your combos have to be more organic and less training mode memorized.
 
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RedCap-BlueSpikes

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#33
I have a feeling a certain someone at Namco, *coughharadacough*, decided to put this in. Tekken 6 and I believe Tekken Tag Tournament 2 have a very similar mechanic, where if your health drops below a set point your attack power increases.

Anyways, nice find! Doesn't seem like this mechanic's super-broken unlike X-Factor, so I'm fine with it.
 
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keninblack

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#34
I have a feeling a certain someone at Namco, *coughharadacough*, decided to put this in. Tekken 6 and I believe Tekken Tag Tournament 2 have a very similar mechanic, where if your health drops below a set point you attack power increases.

Anyways, nice find! Doesn't seem like this mechanic's super-broken unlike X-Factor, so I'm fine with it.
Yeah both games have it, what makes ME curious... is that in T6 and TTT2, its not only a power increase, but it makes every move you land a counter hit. Giving you less scaling on a combo, and makes juggling the opponent way easier because your moves pop them up a little bit higher.

So now its got me curious if they implemented some type of counter hit system into the game as well.
 

SixSaw

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#35
I have a feeling a certain someone at Namco, *coughharadacough*, decided to put this in. Tekken 6 and I believe Tekken Tag Tournament 2 have a very similar mechanic, where if your health drops below a set point you attack power increases.

Anyways, nice find! Doesn't seem like this mechanic's super-broken unlike X-Factor, so I'm fine with it.

Makes sense, however I'd've preferred they'd just had this mechanic work through increasing damage rather than knockback, because again I feel the relationship between a character's % and the knockback they receive (armor and other specific things aside) ought to be near-constant.
 

Cruncher93

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#37
So you are getting rewarded for losing?
Most "good" game designs have a built in catch-up feature. It makes the game more enjoyable for the losing player, and since the "winning" player is apparently better he should be able to keep up with the feature as long as it doesn't have huge impact. Rage Effect seems on the lower end of impact.

Also it rewards you for surviving long, which isn't what I would call losing per se.
 
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#38
I like this mechanic.

So you are getting rewarded for losing?
It's a minor catchup feature, if even that. If we didn't want any of those, then we should just rule the winner by whoever lands the first hit.

A player at high percent is given extra knockback. In an even-stock situation, this makes it more likely for that player to get a kill. You could even extend that to a low-percent spike, since the knockback and thus hitstun are improved, when the victim may have otherwise been able to recover out. In an uneven stock situation, it makes it a bit harder to combo your opponent (without having excellent knowledge or very good reading for pseudocombos), but the added knockback and stun can also (if you land sufficiently strong hits) enable certain combos and at least keep your opponent off of you, further extending your lead.

It's double edged, but honestly I feel like it rewards a lead more than a disadvantage.
 
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TheSMASHtyke

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#40
I don't think it's fair to view this mechanic as a straight up comeback mechanic. It's higher percentage = higher knockback, not losing = higher damage. It rewards survivability, not being bad. The example illustrated by the reddit user in the OP is a great example; if you take the first stock and are at higher percent, your opponents under pressure to approach and KO you before they suffer uncomfortable knockback or a gimp driven into greater effectiveness by slightly higher knockback.
 
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