New Mechanic: The Rage Effect

[Revven]

It's only really a comeback mechanic in same-stock situations, tbh. If a player KOs someone else at higher% the player who got KO'd now comes back at 0% with even less knockback power than before, making it harder for them to KO the guy at high%. Not only that, but the person with the high% has a better chance at getting an early edgeguard with their higher knockback power (in theory).

I wouldn't throw this mechanic to the wayside so early, it could be really interesting and make up a little for how much effect stale moves does to your moves. Someone needs to now test how strong a stale move is while you're at 150% + if someone is VIing correctly lol.

So many factors to consider now when you're trying to KO someone, it's really weird but I'm strangely looking forward to seeing how players adapt to it.

 

[Nixon Corral]

I think this is really interesting. I'm not familiar enough with the game to hazard any guesses at the implications of this, but I'm always glad to see some new wrinkles thrown in as long as they don't make the game worse (which I really don't think this will).

 

[solitonmedic]

Holy crap, I pray for the world for anyone who gets hit by Little Mac at 150%+.

 

[GLStephen]

So you are getting rewarded for losing?

Pretty sure losing in Smash means losing your stocks, not having a high percent. This rewards staying alive, which is not losing.

 

[Noa.]

What an interesting mechanic. It rewards you for not dying immediately when your opponent comes back from a KO.

 

[Shaya]

One of the biggest issues that existed for a lot of characters throughout previous Smash games was that being at high percent against a freshly taken stock would be difficult to capitalise on because any low percent follow ups could easily trade putting you in a terrible position/taking your stock, in melee; just to add insult to injury there was crouch cancelling. But yeah, that extra edge is probably going to help characters above 100% from actually getting combos off that would otherwise be having to shield to not trade/get punished. This could be cool / good.

This also puts an extra edge to doubles for stock tanking vs carrying (usually stock tanking is for campier characters not necessarily going for kills). If no one's been keeping up, nearly everything new we're seeing makes four player action significantly "crazier".

 

[Dendros]

This mechanic is a very good addition. from the video you can tell that it only slightly changes knockback. It doesnt really change much except it balances out matches more.
If anything this increases the amount of skill needed to beat players.

It has now become easier for more players to be ok at this game. while it has become harder to be the very best, like no one ever was.

 

[Big-Cat]

We Tekken now.

 

[Signia]

Still not seeing why people like this mechanic. Ok, so it "rewards survivability?" That also means it rewards getting hit.

"actually it helps you keep a lead" So is it a comeback mechanic or not? Pick one.

This makes it even more obnoxious when someone is at a high percent. You are actually hurting yourself if you land attacks at later percent that don't kill. You gain nothing, they gain knockback power, your move gets further staled. If you use a kill move and it barely fails to kill, that's huge error. If you keep hitting someone, not only will they not necessarily die, but now they'll be able to end your stock earlier.

This game really didn't need to favor the player surviving to higher percent any more than it already does. Why is rewarding that a good thing? It just pressures you even more to take risks in order to finish someone off.

I'm not convinced that messing up perception of knockback is a good thing either, though this mechanic doesn't necessarily do that. Not knowing when things will kill or combo, or from the designer's perspective not making things clear what will happen, is obnoxious and bad design. It should be clear to the player what will happen when they make their choices. However all this mechanic is going to do is make us memorize a bit more. Add a percent or two every 30% or so.

I don't mean to sound pessimistic, and yes, I was wrong earlier in the thread, but it seems like most of you are refusing to consider undesired effects of this mechanic. If you want to find out whether this is good game design, weigh its effects against each other. Does the good outweigh the bad? Does saying "I like it" in colored text get us anywhere?

 

[Baskerville]

Rage in full effect?

 

[Shaya]

It definitely would've helped.

 

[trash?]

this is 50/50 in terms of helping the loser vs. helping the winner. put it this way; it's actually going to be more difficult to "even up" stocks, as the person with four stocks at 80% has a greater advantage going for them than someone with three stocks at 0%, because the latter isn't going to even up the stocks as quickly.

although, at the same time, the same could be argued for the former pressing an advantage, as higher knockback means getting those integral low-% combos will be more difficult

 

[HeavyLobster]

This appears to be yet another mechanic designed to buff heavyweights, since they're the ones most able to survive to these high %s, and they usually have less to lose in terms of combos. They also have a lot of high KB moves, and this could make it easier for them to kill with their weaker attacks, as well as kill at stupidly low %s with their stronger attacks. When you take into account larger blast zones and the fact that most heavyweights have gotten a bit heavier, it looks like we'll see more high-tier heavies. Fatties of the world, unite! You have nothing to lose but your low-tier status!

 

[trash?]

that's a great point, actually. how hard does DK's aerials stack with this mechanic? as in, can I just bair people and have them fly away at my whims

 

[WaltzForVenus]

I Feel like this will help more powerful characters like gannon, bowser & dk since it takes more % to kill them.i like the mechanic overall

 

[The Real Gamer]

Characters who are heavy and don't rely on combo strings for damage output will really benefit from this.

Charizard definitely approves.

 

[DownWitDaWaveDash]

I do not welcome this mechanic. If there is even the slightest bit of help given to someones ass that I am whipping, I don't like it.

Did we need this?

As far as I remember in Melee, when you had to make a 4 stock comeback, you had to get hit a lot less. Same in brawl with a 3 Stock comeback.

Now just because you are at high percent, you gain knock back on your moves? No. Patch please. Sakurai Please.

I've seen DDD's F-Smash kill at 78 first stock% so, If I have a stock ahead, and I'm at 145% and I hit F-Smash at 68% and kill, thats really unfair and lame. Goes both ways whether I'm winning or not.

random buffs > skills > character
what

 

[ScubaGoomba]

This appears to be yet another mechanic designed to buff heavyweights, since they're the ones most able to survive to these high %s, and they usually have less to lose in terms of combos. They also have a lot of high KB moves, and this could make it easier for them to kill with their weaker attacks, as well as kill at stupidly low %s with their stronger attacks. When you take into account larger blast zones and the fact that most heavyweights have gotten a bit heavier, it looks like we'll see more high-tier heavies. Fatties of the world, unite! You have nothing to lose but your low-tier status!

These were my thoughts, too. It doesn't really hurt lightweights (except that they have to face against it), but it allows the heavier characters to take advantage of their bulk. Approaching them becomes a bit more cautious, now, as you don't want to stale your kill moves too soon, but you want to build percent damage. Likewise, all players will benefit from aggressive play because added damage buffs your character.

In a sense, this also discourages camping. Yeah, you can sit back and rack up damage and avoid hits, but you're less likely to capitalize on this damage due to your lower knockback. Then, when the lunk gets closer, all of his/her attacks are going to be supercharged.

 

[HeavyLobster]

that's a great point, actually. how hard does DK's aerials stack with this mechanic? as in, can I just bair people and have them fly away at my whims

DK relies a bit too much on his bair for it to be fresh very often at high %s. I was thinking of the kind of situational secondary kill options that made up much of Ganondorf and Ike's arsenal in Brawl. It also doesn't help all that much and won't let you kill with just anything.

 

[Shaya]

Uhh, think of it like this.

Living to 150% seems like it's going to be pretty possible in this game. For a lot of characters.
For lighter weight characters, taking the stock off a fatty/most other characters without winning the game, meant an opponent who can easily trade on follow ups due to low hit stun at low percent. Characters who's combo moves prefer aerials will benefit from this as their hits will be sending them further away/dealing more hitstun in ways that may likely be easier to follow up on without getting punished or allowing them to frame trap better.

Take Marth/Lucina forward air at 0%. That move is likely very easy to punish ON HIT if they aren't auto cancelling or well spacing it. Perhaps not anymore. Zoning characters will have their projectiles a bit more potent as well in this situation.

 

[Whiteface]

I know that certain mechanics or techs discovered are unintentionally put there by the developers. But i often wonder why the intentional mechanics (like this one) are never blatantly spoken about/explained by the developers.
Though it may detract from the fun of 'discovery', seems like it'd make more sense to do so.

 

[Strong Badam]

Interesting. Nice work to those who have been doing testing. Not sure what to think of the mechanic yet, it seems like it's not significant enough to be a huge difference that rewards players for losing, but also since it exists at all it makes it harder to have a feel for KB and hurts low percent combos going into a new stock.

 

[Black Mantis]

http://strategywiki.org/wiki/Capcom_vs._SNK_2/Walkthrough#K_Groove

Thanks for giving me a free K-Groove Nintendo.

 

[TTTTTsd]

This is...going to be incredibly something. While the KB isn't a DRASTIC difference, if you thought keeping up with combos was difficult enough before, now you have to watch your own % and your opponent's at the same time.

Yeesh

 

[Gameboi834]

I don't like how it gives extra damage.

How will this effect comp. play in the short/long run?

 

[Praxis]

First instinct: This seems terrible.

Between this and vectoring/VI, it seems extremely hard to know where your opponent will end up. It completely changes the appraisal of the game if it becomes hard to know when a move transitions in to a kill move. You often times won't know if usmash is now a kill move or not. Adding inconsistency makes the game worse at high level play, period. Even if it's not random.

It prevents the threat of "now I can kill you with usmash" from entering in to play at a time where both players know it. In Brawl and Melee you have to start spacing and DIing to avoid certain moves once you know they can kill you. In this game, it's going to be very hard to know, and that actually takes away depth from the player interaction.

I know a lot of low level players are going to read the last two statements and disagree, but at high level play, gameplay becomes a conversation. You each know the extent of the opponent's capabilities and are trying to wrest control of the situation, using your knowledge of what your opponent is capable of and what he wants to do to predict him. It's almost like debate, in a way.

Blurring the lines of a player's capabilities in any given situation reduces the depth of the interaction between the players.

----------------------




Other than that, it's a comeback/rubber banding mechanic, which is inherently anticompetitive. The counter argument to that is that it can benefit the winning player if they take the stock first. I suppose it's nice because it will allow good players to sweep bad players by remaining supercharged if they save their stock. But overall I think it'll just add inconsistency among good players.

The game is increasingly looking like "whoever takes the first stock wins", between VI, incredible recoveries and now this. It's a very attrition-based game (like Brawl). Whoever misses their VI and dies early will probably just get edged out the rest of the match.

I very much hope I'm wrong.

 

[Black Mantis]

I do not welcome this mechanic. If there is even the slightest bit of help given to someones *** that I am whipping, I don't like it.

Did we need this?

As far as I remember in Melee, when you had to make a 4 stock comeback, you had to get hit a lot less. Same in brawl with a 3 Stock comeback.

Now just because you are at high percent, you gain knock back on your moves? No. Patch please. Sakurai Please.

I've seen DDD's F-Smash kill at 78 first stock% so, If I have a stock ahead, and I'm at 145% and I hit F-Smash at 68% and kill, thats really unfair and lame. Goes both ways whether I'm winning or not.

random buffs > skills > character
what

I don't understand what the complaint is about here. Stuff like this has been in traditional fighters for years and has never been a dominant/game breaking problem (Tekken, Capcom Vs Snk 2, Samurai Showdown).

 

[Conda]

Rage Effect is a great name with high conveyance and makes sense immediately - love it.

 

[Altais]

The cornered rat will bite the cat.

 

[KingBroly]

So...how does this play against the Knockback Defense mechanic?

 

[Espy Rose]

God Praxis you suck. Sm4sh is trying to woo you with new, interesting mechanics, and all you're doing is admiring Brawl. Or worse, Melee. You're not even giving the poor girl a chance.

Also, Street Fighter's been doing this before it was cool.

 

[Burnsy]

Lmao at people making mountains of molehills. Did any of you look at the ACTUAL numbers for how much this affects knockback?

 

[Black Mantis]

Super Tekken Bros

 

[BADGRAPHICS]

The first thing to do is work out what the level of increase is. If we know the formula, it won't be hard to work out whether or not a move will KO. It could be something as simple as a quarter of your own % is momentarily added to your opponent when you hit them. So if you could normally KO at 120%, you would know you could KO at 100% when you reach 80%.

Obviously that's probably not it, but once we know exactly how it works it'll probably be really easy to predict results.

It doesn't make knockback unpredictable, it just makes it harder to predict. That's no bad thing.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Increased KB is actually a disadvantage at lower %s, so it actually slightly hurts players who take the first stock while at high %s, since they will probably die before the increased KB becomes a net positive and are less able to rack up damage. This mechanic does definitely make % leads less significant, but doesn't really help the player who takes the first stock unless said player is ahead by a significant amount, and not just hanging on by a thread. Ultimately what this mechanic means, in combination with a number of other Smash 4 mechanics, is that % leads aren't all that important, and what really counts is actually taking the stock.

 

[New_Dumal]

That's , in my opnion, is the worst add in Super Smash Bros 4...
First of all, I always think the revenge-kill was fair and balanced. You return with your fresh's attacks, ready to try a comeback.

Now, you return with all your moves fresh... but don't has more kill potential than you had before.
In other hand your opponent ,in previous games , always had the chance you being a glass-canon (high atack but takes low knockback taken) to combo you and increase his advantage.

Other thing, this is just too good for heavy characters. Heavy ones are used to be stronger by default (not everyone, but it's normal) but now because they survive more, has more time with max knockback. Lighter characters really suffer with this.
Look at the new Meta knight. MK probably still fun because you still can combo very-well and build some damage in almost every situation. But now when you has the lead, you can't combo so well, and even being in this state is hard because your lack of killpower combo with your lack of weight , resulting normal early deaths.

I don't like it at all. I'm very glad with the game, and just don't like some minor things in the roster, but was TOO happy with every single thing until now.
But still ... that's just not good.

 

[Khao]

I don't really see how this counts as a comeback mechanic.

Sure, the "worse" player will see the effects first, but then so will the "better" player at some point, at which point he'd probably be at the advantage once again.

A comeback mechanic would mean the losing player gets help to match, or surpass the winning player, without the winning player getting the same advantage (good example in Star Fox Assault, where a player losing by two points is "rewarded" with a homing, one-hit kill weapon with three bullets.)

Here, while the losing player will see the effects first, once he catches up (if he does catch up) he will just be fighting against someone receiving the same knockback boost. So if the original winner really was the better player, things will just turn around once again.

Not to mention it's avoidable, don't want your opponent to get a huge knockback boost?

Then don't let him live long enough.

I don't know if I it's good, or if I even like it, but I don't think it counts as a comeback thingy.

Other thing, this is just too good for heavy characters. Heavy ones are used to be stronger by default (not everyone, but it's normal) but now because they survive more, has more time with max knockback. Lighter characters really suffer with this.

Considering how the heavier characters were pretty much universally worse than the lightweight speedsters, I'd say they kinda needed this.

 

[ToadsterOven]

I do not welcome this mechanic. If there is even the slightest bit of help given to someones *** that I am whipping, I don't like it.

Did we need this?

As far as I remember in Melee, when you had to make a 4 stock comeback, you had to get hit a lot less. Same in brawl with a 3 Stock comeback.

Now just because you are at high percent, you gain knock back on your moves? No. Patch please. Sakurai Please.

I've seen DDD's F-Smash kill at 78 first stock% so, If I have a stock ahead, and I'm at 145% and I hit F-Smash at 68% and kill, thats really unfair and lame. Goes both ways whether I'm winning or not.

random buffs > skills > character
what

God forbid your opponent has a realistic chance of turning the tide against you! Other fighting games have a similar comeback mechanic and now Super Smash Bros does as well. DEAL WITH IT!

First instinct: This seems terrible.

Between this and vectoring/VI, it seems extremely hard to know where your opponent will end up. It completely changes the appraisal of the game if it becomes hard to know when a move transitions in to a kill move. You often times won't know if usmash is now a kill move or not. Adding inconsistency makes the game worse at high level play, period. Even if it's not random.

It prevents the threat of "now I can kill you with usmash" from entering in to play at a time where both players know it. In Brawl and Melee you have to start spacing and DIing to avoid certain moves once you know they can kill you. In this game, it's going to be very hard to know, and that actually takes away depth from the player interaction.

I know a lot of low level players are going to read the last two statements and disagree, but at high level play, gameplay becomes a conversation. You each know the extent of the opponent's capabilities and are trying to wrest control of the situation, using your knowledge of what your opponent is capable of and what he wants to do to predict him. It's almost like debate, in a way.

Blurring the lines of a player's capabilities in any given situation reduces the depth of the interaction between the players.

----------------------




Other than that, it's a comeback/rubber banding mechanic, which is inherently anticompetitive. The counter argument to that is that it can benefit the winning player if they take the stock first. I suppose it's nice because it will allow good players to sweep bad players by remaining supercharged if they save their stock. But overall I think it'll just add inconsistency among good players.

The game is increasingly looking like "whoever takes the first stock wins", between VI, incredible recoveries and now this. It's a very attrition-based game (like Brawl). Whoever misses their VI and dies early will probably just get edged out the rest of the match.

I very much hope I'm wrong.

tl;dr someone doesn't want to *gasp* mix up their moves/use an element of strategy for once! In any other fighting game, repeating the same moves/kill moves causes some of your opponents to catch on rather fast and use it against you. I'm glad Smash 4 is actually encouraging us to mix it up rather than use/abuse the same ol combos we practice in training mode like robots. Judging from what others have to say about this new mechanic, you appear (and i say this respectfully) to be in the wrong when you say anti competive regarding this comeback mechanic. Other fighting games have it and you don't really hear their fan bases complain about it now do you?

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

The first thing to do is work out what the level of increase is. If we know the formula, it won't be hard to work out whether or not a move will KO. It could be something as simple as a quarter of your own % is momentarily added to your opponent when you hit them. So if you could normally KO at 120%, you would know you could KO at 100% when you reach 80%.

Obviously that's probably not it, but once we know exactly how it works it'll probably be really easy to predict results.

It doesn't make knockback unpredictable, it just makes it harder to predict. That's no bad thing.

Aerodrome and I already pretty well worked it out. It starts taking effect at around 40% and caps at around 150%. The total gain is around 15% extra knockback and it's linearly distributed (so about 1.4% more knockback per 10% damage you take in that range). We don't have the finer details of the math exactly worked out, but the general behavior and ballpark numbers are already known.

 

[Overswarm]

Does no one else realize that the gap between "kill" and "not killed" for all of these new mechanics, whether it is rage or vectoring, is the equivalent of like one or two hits?