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New Mechanic: The Rage Effect

ToadsterOven

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no, the game is ruined FOREVER

/s
Nailed it! You would think Sakurai "smashed" some of these people's parents off of Battlefield/Final Destination and then finished them off with a thrown item/projectile. I mean...

  • God forbid everyone has a pretty solid to great recovery yet Project M and even Brawl had it to varying degrees.

  • God forbid DI gets a revamp and don't bother with the fact that it can just as easily be punished if used improperly.

  • God forbid we don't have cheap as **** combos that work every time and instead have to mix up our moves (which still allows for early percent combos nonetheless) and *gasp* actually go offstage more this time for our kills if not strategically plan a potent edgeguard tactic that will ensure your KO. Past smash games encouraged this to varying degrees, but 4 having a huge emphasis on this can only be good for its competitive meta in the long term.

  • God forbid we have a new mechanic to help make KO's a little easier based on our damage percentages which can also potentially help someone who's not having a good day!

  • Oh and GOD FORBID the heavyweights get some recognition this time, Bowser in particular!
I imagine once the definitive version of 4 is out and we've had adequate time to test that as well as the 3DS version, we won't even remember what we were making such a big deal out of to begin with! :laugh:
 
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InfinityCollision

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I'm not seeing this as much of a comeback mechanic given Smash's particular nuances. That's not to say it's an insignificant effect, mind... Ability to retain stocks at high % is going to be huge for characters that thrive on positional advantage.
 

Chiroz

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Please name other fighting games that implement comeback mechanics on a wide scale. Explain their use.

The only game that has this is Tekken, but it only takes effect at the very, very end of the game (last 5% of health). Tekken doesn't have multiple stocks. The impact is low. Often, you will be in a combo when you get to that last 5%, so don't even get the chance.

"Comeback mechanics" are detrimental to competitive games. Real competitive games either don't have them or they are very limited.

In a competitive game, the winning player should have an advantage that he can use to press his opponent. The losing player has to then take riskier options that will either get him back in the game or end the game very quickly. This leads to very interesting, and very quick, matches.

This is true of every major competitive game- Starcraft, Poker, Magic, and Chess all meet this design criteria.

The winning player in Chess, Poker (Texas Hold 'Em), Magic, and Starcraft exerts pressure on his opponent and brings the game to an end very quickly by forcing their opponent to make riskier and riskier decisions to try to get out of the situation. If the opposite was true, you'd see longer games with more inconsistency (the better player does not consistently win, because the loser is constantly given handouts to catch up, and the only thing that matters is who plays better at the very end of the game). If the better player cannot consistently win, the game is not considered competitive.

I don't think Rage is bad enough to make the game noncompetitive, but it certainly contributes negatively.




Listen, I'm going to try my best to write this nicely because I genuinely want to teach you. I feel sorry for you if you genuinely think this is how Melee and Brawl worked, because it sounds like you are genuinely ignorant of it and letting positive feelings on Smash 4 blind you on this.


The beautiful thing about Smash Bros is that there has always been no set combos. There's a flow. People could change where they go after they get hit through DI, and being able to adapt to make combos was a beautiful part of Melee.

Games flow like a debate. You appraise your opponent's capabilities, you know what he WANTS to do, you know how to stop him from doing it, but he knows how to stop you from stopping him, and elaborate guessing games happen. David Sirlin wrote an amazing book on how this works, mentally.

You know the best options in any situation, but your opponent knows too. Your vast game knowledge gives you the ability to judge the changing game to figure out the best thing to do in a given situation, and also to figure out what your opponent wants to do.

Making stuff like knockback become "fuzzy" (inconsistent) through the combination of VI and Rage is bad for the game. Because in Melee and Brawl, when you hit the percentage where I can kill you with an usmash, both players know it, and it creates depth- you have this new threat, and suddenly, your opponent has to change up his decision making process because he knows you really want an usmash and YOU know he's going to be making choices that avoid the usmash. So you use that to your advantage to land your other moves.

When you can't really know if your moves will kill your opponent, that mental interaction in the high level of play is weakened.




I don't like your posts you try to confuse people into not liking the game.

This isn't making kill % inconsistent. they are certainly NOT random. We have proved that both VI and Rage are consistent throughout % and knockback which means they can be calculated and both players CAN know what % they are going to die.

You are mad that your previous knowledge won't transfer 100% but instead only 60% will transfer and you will have to learn 40%. Deal with it and stop crying. This isn't inconsistent or fuzzy, it's just new.

Stop trying to bash things with lies.

Also it's not a catch up mechanic. Both players get this "reward" at some point. It helps the player behind "catch up" just as much as it helps the person ahead "retake the lead" creating "closer matches" but never rewarding only the loser.



TL;DR Both players have the capacity to learn this mechanic and understand it. When DI was added to Melee people could have made the EXACT same arguments you are, yet DI is seen as a positive thing. Don't lie about players "not knowing what's going to happen". Good players will learn the new mechanics and will still know EXACTLY when a kill move will kill depending on your % and his own. For god's sake, Stale Moves vs Fresh Moves is a much, much, much more complicated formula than VI and Rage combined (which are both linear), and yet the game survives with Stale Moves.
 
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Zork

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That reminds me this change definitely benefits heavyweight characters are lot more than most as they'll be living the longest. But heavyweight characters tend to have some of the best potential kill power already so it seems silly that this will only increase it.

Also I guess you could argue this mechanic rewards players for having better DI and living longer. However, I've heard DI is nerfed in general in this game. Does momentum cancelling still exist?

Also it's not a catch up mechanic. Both players get this "reward" at some point. It helps the player behind "catch up" just as much as it helps the person ahead "retake the lead" creating "closer matches" but never rewarding only the loser.
That's not true. If both players are at last stock and one is winning significantly, it only rewards the losing player.

As you said, the very fact that it will potentially create closer matches shows it helps the losing player more.

Argh sorry for the double post again.
 
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Overswarm

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Hey guys remember when Brawl changed the mechanics of DI in such a way that DIing directly towards the opponent could be an optimal solution and it altered the game for the worse

me neither

most of you probably didn't even know that DI in Brawl was different than Melee

squares, circles, whatever, I don't care. It's all just info to compile to be the best Smash 4 player possible. If it turns out that I need to start altering my DI based on both my % and my opponent % and need to alter my DI based on what trajectory AND what knockback I want, that just adds more for me to get better at. For those that don't want to get excited about the new stuff, you can keep getting d-throw -> u-tilted to 60% by mario. I'm going to vector down and jab him.
 

Chiroz

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That reminds me this change definitely benefits heavyweight characters are lot more than most as they'll be living the longest. But heavyweight characters tend to have some of the best potential kill power already so it seems silly that this will only increase it.

Also I guess you could argue this mechanic rewards players for having better DI and living longer. However, I've heard DI is nerfed in general in this game. Does momentum cancelling still exist?



That's not true. If both players are at last stock and one is winning significantly, it only rewards the losing player.

As you said, the very fact that it will potentially create closer matches shows it helps the losing player more.

Unless you die at very early %s it won't only reward the losing player it will also reward you. And if you die at a very low % it probably wasn't due to this mechanic unless your opponent is Bowser or DK.

This mechanic only adds about 15% more knockback at maximum %.That's like adding 7-10% more to your damage AT MAX % (150% damage). Most of the time this mechanic is acting like a free 1 or 2 jabs.



What's all the fuzz over? Making a match closer for a small while doesn't mean it's a catch up tool. Let's say you were playing some "money investment game". If I gave 200 dollars to the player who is losing so he can invest it and after 30 seconds gave 200 dollars to you. How is that rewarding the loser. I gave both of you the same thing. I only gave it to the losing player first which gave the illusion of a "closer match", but in the end I gave you both the exact same thing.

If he beats you because he was able to invest his 200 dollars in a smarter fashion then that is just his greater knowledge of this mechanic. If you had gotten the greater knowledge of the mechanic, you could have used it as well as he did. In the end the game gave both of you the same thing, whomever uses it best will like the mechanic the most.

What I am more worried about is whether or not this mechanic was balanced between lightweights and heavy characters and characters with bad KOs vs characters with great KOs.
 
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kupo15

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its cool that the heavies get a little extra (since I'm a ganon main) but as far as comboing is concerned this mechanic in tandem with Vectoring further makes KB more unpredictable which people seem to think is a good thing for some reason. Knowing that a combo will work 100% at a specific % against a certain character is actually healthy for the game. Now you can't know for certain if a certain combo is going to work because the % is misleading due to these two mechanics.

We can't say for sure how detrimental this will be to the game but its not hard to understand that this mechanic goes against the essence of what makes Smash work from a fundamental stand point.
 

Praxis

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its cool that the heavies get a little extra (since I'm a ganon main) but as far as comboing is concerned this mechanic in tandem with Vectoring further makes KB more unpredictable which people seem to think is a good thing for some reason. Knowing that a combo will work 100% at a specific % against a certain character is actually healthy for the game. Now you can't know for certain if a certain combo is going to work because the % is misleading due to these two mechanics.

We can't say for sure how detrimental this will be to the game but its not hard to understand that this mechanic goes against the essence of what makes Smash work from a fundamental stand point.
This, exactly. Also, combined with stale move negation makes it even more complicated.

Combining Rage, Vectoring, and stale move negation means attacks will almost never have the same knockback twice.


As I said earlier in the thread, this is detrimental to appraisal. Kill percents are going to be in constant flux and extremely complex to determine.

Hopefully the effect isn't too strong. I don't think this is the end of the world. But it's yet another negative addition to the game.
 

Espy Rose

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I'm glad it breaks fundamental ideas of Smash.
Players are getting far too complacent. Change is interesting and fun. :applejack:
 

ToadsterOven

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its cool that the heavies get a little extra (since I'm a ganon main) but as far as comboing is concerned this mechanic in tandem with Vectoring further makes KB more unpredictable which people seem to think is a good thing for some reason. Knowing that a combo will work 100% at a specific % against a certain character is actually healthy for the game. Now you can't know for certain if a certain combo is going to work because the % is misleading due to these two mechanics.

We can't say for sure how detrimental this will be to the game but its not hard to understand that this mechanic goes against the essence of what makes Smash work from a fundamental stand point.
It does not! You just aren't willing to adapt. Furthermore, its been proven by @ Chiroz Chiroz that the VI and rage are consistent through knockback as well as percentages! You are allowed to post what you want yes, but please don't act ignorant of what others have to say. That goes for you too @ Praxis Praxis :)
 
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Espy Rose

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Praxis is just saddlesore that his Peach Brawl combos aren't gonna work anymore. :( :applejack:
 

kupo15

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This, exactly. Also, combined with stale move negation makes it even more complicated.

Combining Rage, Vectoring, and stale move negation means attacks will almost never have the same knockback twice.


As I said earlier in the thread, this is detrimental to appraisal. Kill percents are going to be in constant flux and extremely complex to determine.

Hopefully the effect isn't too strong. I don't think this is the end of the world. But it's yet another negative addition to the game.
Agreed. I wonder if they even included that "super kb bonus" you get with super fresh hits from Brawl also.
 

Praxis

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That is your opinion and I stated before if it can work Tekken, SF, Marvel, Injustice, etc. why can't it work here?
As explained in this thread so far, such additions are generally not regarded as good additions to the game.

Some are mitigated, like Revenge Meter, mostly because it's balanced out by the Super Meter (which rewards the attacker). Others have only a small effect. Some are regarded as very bad (X-factor) by their communities.

"Other games have a bad mechanic, thus it is okay! Quit complaining!" is not a valid response.

If your wife asks you to stop beating her and you cite your friend who also beats his wife occasionally, it doesn't invalidate her request.
 
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Black Mantis

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But if it was a bad mechanic it would dominate the metagame and people wouldn't play it. The fact that you gave an exception to the Revenge Meter means that it can work properly and function in a game without being dominant. It's possible it can function successfully here similar to other games in which it has been implemented.
 

Chiroz

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As explained in this thread so far, such additions are generally not regarded as good additions to the game.

Some are mitigated, like Revenge Meter, mostly because it's balanced out by the Super Meter (which rewards the attacker). Others have only a small effect. Some are regarded as very bad (X-factor) by their communities.

"Other games have a bad mechanic, thus it is okay! Quit complaining!" is not a valid response.

If your wife asks you to stop beating her and you cite your friend who also beats his wife occasionally, it doesn't invalidate her request.


Only this mechanic doesn't work even closely to what you are describing it as and you are just misleading people into believing what you want them to. If you genuinely don't understand the mechanic then don't comment please. If you understand it and only do this to create disturbance and panic then please stop. In other words, please stop posting until you actually understand what's going on.
 

KuroganeHammer

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ok

I want to just lay out the facts here

FROM 0% TO ABOUT 70% KNOCKBACK DIFFERENCE FROM RAGE AND KNOCKBACK INFLUENCE/VECTOR INFLUENCE IS ABSOLUTELY TINY AND UNNOTICEABLE

YOU STILL HAVE YOUR COMBOS

edit: big letters so people will read
 
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kupo15

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It does not! You just aren't willing to adapt. Furthermore, its been proven by @ Chiroz Chiroz that the VI and rage are consistent through knockback as well as percentages! You are allowed to post what you want yes, but please don't act ignorant of what others have to say. That goes for you too @ Praxis Praxis :)
It has nothing to do with the fact that I am or am not willing to adapt. If I'm going to be playing the game I'm of course going to have to adapt to the game, I'm mere stating that its not hard to see how these mechanics contradict the fundamentals of the Smash bros. Smash is already constantly changing because of the % based situation combos and DI from your opponent. If you can't rely on your moves to act consistently in the same situations then how is that a good thing?

I'm not acting ignorant. See that this mechanic adds yet another unpredictable and more importantly uncontrollable element that directly effects the consistency of your moves and making an observation that fundamentally its not a good thing.

That is your opinion and I stated before if it can work Tekken, SF, Marvel, Injustice, etc. why can't it work here?
Easy. Just because it works in those games doesn't mean it can work here. By comparison, Smash is way more unpredictable and sandbox like compared to those games. Those other games have combos that work regardless of health and the important thing is that you can rely on your moves to act consistently. If you can't rely on your moves to act consistent in a game where movements and combos can be controlled the way Smash does then the game just doesn't work.

ok

I want to just lay out the facts here

edit: big letters so people will read
In case your directing that at me, I want to let you aware that I'm not jumping to conclusions that the game is officially ruined, merely stating my observation how this mechanic doesn't really compliment the type of game smash is and just because its a small influence doesn't mean it should get a free pass.
 
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Chiroz

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It has nothing to do with the fact that I am or am not willing to adapt. If I'm going to be playing the game I'm of course going to have to adapt to the game, I'm mere stating that its not hard to see how these mechanics contradict the fundamentals of the Smash bros. Smash is already constantly changing because of the % based situation combos and DI from your opponent. If you can't rely on your moves to act consistently in the same situations then how is that a good thing?

I'm not acting ignorant. See that this mechanic adds yet another unpredictable and more importantly uncontrollable element that directly effects the consistency of your moves and making an observation that fundamentally its not a good thing.



Easy. Just because it works in those games doesn't mean it can work here. By comparison, Smash is way more unpredictable and sandbox like compared to those games. Those other games have combos that work regardless of health and the important thing is that you can rely on your moves to act consistently. If you can't rely on your moves to act consistent in a game where movements and combos can be controlled the way Smash does then the game just doesn't work.



In case your directing that at me, I want to let you aware that I'm not jumping to conclusions that the game is officially ruined, merely stating my observation how this mechanic contradicts the fundamentals of Smash




Here is where you are 100% wrong. This is 100% controllable, 100% predictable and 100% consistent.

STOP SPREADING MISINFORMATION.

I can assure you Mario will always kill Bowser at 130% if he has 70% damage. He will also always fail if he has only 50% damage.

I can assure you Bowser will always fly the exact same amount if both your % and his % are the same in 2 situations.

Completely predictable, completely consistent. Exactly the same control you had in Melee and Brawl over knowledge.

Adapt, stop crying and for god's sake leave if you are only going to spread lies and panic.
 
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Zork

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ok

I want to just lay out the facts here

FROM 0% TO ABOUT 70% KNOCKBACK DIFFERENCE FROM RAGE AND KNOCKBACK INFLUENCE/VECTOR INFLUENCE IS ABSOLUTELY TINY AND UNNOTICEABLE

YOU STILL HAVE YOUR COMBOS

edit: big letters so people will read
What about when you are at 100+ percent and they are on their next stock? Will your 0-70 percent bnb combos/strings still work?
 

Praxis

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But if it was a bad mechanic it would dominate the metagame and people wouldn't play it. The fact that you gave an exception to the Revenge Meter means that it can work properly and function in a game without being dominant. It's possible it can function successfully here similar to other games in which it has been implemented.
That's not the case. Tripping is a bad mechanic in Brawl, but it didn't dominate the metagame.

It's a bad mechanic in that it annoys a lot of players and causes losses that are generally viewed as unfair. It promotes inconsistency, but isn't bad enough to make the game truly inconsistent.


You can have a bad mechanic without the whole game being bad. I don't think this ruins the game, it's just another mechanic that is bad for competitive play that the game really shouldn't have. It makes the game worse, even if only slightly.

Aerodrome, I understand that, I don't think this is earth shattering, it's just a negative footnote that will make the player who is losing more likely to get kills. The guy who is at 150% is being given a better chance of killing the guy at 100% to get an early reversal lead.


@ Chiroz Chiroz , I understand the concept fully. I don't think it's random. I think that there are so many mechanics now that affect knockback that when combined together, knockback will be inconsistent in that it'll never be the same strength twice and neither player knows how much knockback will be imparted at the time of impact.

The attacking player doesn't know the other player's VI and will have a bazillion variables to track, making it really hard to know where the opponent will end up at high percentages. This makes the concept of "kill percentages" fuzzy because there are so many factors in it.
 
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PikaSamus

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So I assume it's like using Rage in Pokémon, in which getting hit after using it raises your attack?
 

ToadsterOven

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As explained in this thread so far, such additions are generally not regarded as good additions to the game.

Some are mitigated, like Revenge Meter, mostly because it's balanced out by the Super Meter (which rewards the attacker). Others have only a small effect. Some are regarded as very bad (X-factor) by their communities.

"Other games have a bad mechanic, thus it is okay! Quit complaining!" is not a valid response.

If your wife asks you to stop beating her and you cite your friend who also beats his wife occasionally, it doesn't invalidate her request.
Wait the Revenger Meter on SSFIV is a BAD thing, but now its supposedly a good thing according the next sentence in your post after the first one? I'm not following your anti comeback mechanic logic here. That and you previously stated that the X-Factor was tame in a previous post of yours which quickly got called out on by several members. Hint: It's NOT tame at all even if you know how to deal with it. As I said before, you are allowed to post your two cents, but if you do, please for the love of god know for a fact what you are talking about/don't spread misinformation. That type of posting gets us nowhere fast in good conversation/discussion. I say this to you in the most polite/respectful way I can :)
 

Black Mantis

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Those other games have combos that work regardless of health and the important thing is that you can rely on your moves to act consistently.
Not true because there are character specific combos, combos that work only in the corner, midscreen combos, and some games have moves that can only be activated at lower health. Your moves won't be consistent if you try to do a midscreen combo in the corner.
 

kupo15

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Here is where you are 100% wrong. This is 100% controllable, 100% predictable and 100% consistent.

STOP SPREADING MISINFORMATION.

I can assure you Mario will always kill Bowser at 130% if he has 70% damage. He will also always fail if he has only 50% damage.

Completely predictable, completely consistent. Exactly the same control you had in Melee and Brawl over knowledge.

Adapt, stop crying and for god's sake leave if you are only going to spread lies and panic.
Uhh no I'm not 100% wrong. First off, I didn't mention anything about killing because its less of a factor and not what I was talking about at all.

The mechanic itself may be predictable and reliable but that is meaningless. The fact is you can't control and predict the % you are at when you attempt a combo. Can you honestly tell me "oh I can easily and consistently make sure I'm at 57% damage when I want to do this combo that only works if I'm at 57%. And by the way, not only does this combo work when I'm at 57%, but my opponent has to be at 25% for it work as well" No you can't.

Yes in Melee you can't control your opponent's % which is a big factor which combos will work and which ones won't, but at least in that game the kb of your move's were consistent and you can reliably recognize that your opponent is at this % and the move you hit with with always act the same way regardless of your %.

What about when you are at 100+ percent and they are on their next stock? Will your 0-70 percent bnb combos/strings still work?
@ Chiroz Chiroz This is exactly what I'm talking about.

Not true because there are character specific combos, combos that work only in the corner, midscreen combos, and some games have moves that can only be activated at lower health. Your moves won't be consistent if you try to do a midscreen combo in the corner.
True but just because a combo can only be performed in the corner doesn't mean its inconsistent it means you need to get them in the corner. If you get them in the corner the combo will work. Period. which means that it is consistent.
 
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TTTTTsd

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Now, I'm going to make an educated guess, but if you are at 100+ % on your next stock, can't you use your better KB to force someone off the stage faster and then gimp them? Given the game's whole emphasis on offstage and being different as a whole. Is that a valid answer?
 
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Praxis

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Wait the Revenger Meter on SSFIV is a BAD thing, but now its supposedly a good thing according the next sentence in your post after the first one? I'm not following your anti comeback mechanic logic here. That and you previously stated that the X-Factor was tame in a previous post of yours which quickly got called out on by several members. Hint: It's NOT tame at all even if you know how to deal with it. As I said before, you are allowed to post your two cents, but if you do, please for the love of god know for a fact what you are talking about/don't spread misinformation. That type of posting gets us nowhere fast in good conversation/discussion. I say this to you in the most polite/respectful way I can :)
I said that the Revenge meter is a bad thing, but it's not THAT bad because the game counter-rewards the attacker as well. It could be worse.

Don't twist my words just because I gave detail.

I said X-Factor was tame because I didn't realize it dominated the metagame as much as it did. Me getting corrected HURT your position.


Do you actually think comeback mechanics are good game design??

Now, I'm going to make an educated guess, but if you are at 100+ % on your next stock, can't you use your better KB to force someone off the stage faster and then gimp them? Given the game's whole emphasis on offstage and being different as a whole. Is that a valid answer?
If anything, I'd say it would make it harder to combo. I don't think the effect is going to be big enough to make a huge difference in this case though.
 
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Chiroz

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That's not the case. Tripping is a bad mechanic in Brawl, but it didn't dominate the metagame.

It's a bad mechanic in that it annoys a lot of players and causes losses that are generally viewed as unfair. It promotes inconsistency, but isn't bad enough to make the game truly inconsistent.


You can have a bad mechanic without the whole game being bad. I don't think this ruins the game, it's just another mechanic that is bad for competitive play that the game really shouldn't have. It makes the game worse, even if only slightly.

Aerodrome, I understand that, I don't think this is earth shattering, it's just a negative footnote that will make the player who is losing more likely to get kills. The guy who is at 150% is being given a better chance of killing the guy at 100% to get an early reversal lead.


Raykz, I understand the concept fully. I don't think it's random. I think that there are so many mechanics now that affect knockback that when combined together, knockback will be inconsistent in that it'll never be the same strength twice and neither player knows how much knockback will be imparted at the time of impact.





Says a completely consistent effect is "random and inconsistent". Says a random occurrence event isn't inconsistence.

Says that a mechanic which can be mathematically calculated and analyzed and only creates a change as big as 7-10% damage makes the game completely impossible to calculate and predict yet an event that allows your opponent a free hit at a random moment does not create a random or inconsistent result, "players were just overeacting".

Okay then champ, try to hide the bias a bit.





You either don't understand the mechanic or don't understand how simple algebra works. It will always be the same knockback if the same situation occurs. The outcome of a hit is 100% predictable if you know simple Algebra. Here's an example:

Fresh Up-Smash kills Bowser at 150% launching him 1000 meters. 100% damage gives me a knockback increase of 20%, I can now kill Bowser at 120% with a launch of 840 plus my 20% from rage. See? Consistent, predictably, any player can learn it. The same event will always occur consistently.

The only difference between this and Brawl/Melee is that there is one added variable. Instead of X*Y = knockback it's now X*Y*Z = Knockback. The formula is still consistent. Stop spreading misinformation PLEASE.
 

keninblack

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Some are mitigated, like Revenge Meter, mostly because it's balanced out by the Super Meter (which rewards the attacker). Others have only a small effect. Some are regarded as very bad (X-factor) by their communities.
Okay please stop comparing this to other FG's because this isn't helping your case at all.

O lord you guys are still doing it, abandon ship. ;_;7
 
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kupo15

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Now, I'm going to make an educated guess, but if you are at 100+ % on your next stock, can't you use your better KB to force someone off the stage faster and then gimp them? Given the game's whole emphasis on offstage and being different as a whole. Is that a valid answer?
I would agree with this statement. That would add a new and interesting element to Smash.
 
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Chiroz

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Uhh no I'm not 100% wrong. First off, I didn't mention anything about killing because its less of a factor and not what I was talking about at all.

The mechanic itself may be predictable and reliable but that is meaningless. The fact is you can't control and predict the % you are at when you attempt a combo. Can you honestly tell me "oh I can easily and consistently make sure I'm at 57% damage when I want to do this combo that only works if I'm at 57%. And by the way, not only does this combo work when I'm at 57%, but my opponent has to be at 25% for it work as well" No you can't.

Yes in Melee you can't control your opponent's % which is a big factor which combos will work and which ones won't, but at least in that game the kb of your move's were consistent and you can reliably recognize that your opponent is at this % and the move you hit with with always act the same way regardless of your %.



@ Chiroz Chiroz This is exactly what I'm talking about.



True but just because a combo can only be performed in the corner doesn't mean its inconsistent it means you need to get them in the corner. If you get them in the corner the combo will work. Period.





You can definitely KNOW consistently if your combo will work at said %. It might work, might not. But you will DEFINITELY know after the first time you try it. You and Praxis keep making it seem like the results are "inconsistent, random and unpredictable". They are neither of the 3 and that statement is a lie. Lying just causes problems and makes people not understand what's going on.
 
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Zork

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So then this change is not significant for low knockback/ideal juggle moves if you are correct Aerodrome. But only time will tell for sure.
 

Praxis

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Says a completely consistent effect is "random and inconsistent". Says a random occurrence event isn't inconsistence.

Says that a mechanic which can be mathematically calculated and analyzed and only creates a change as big as 7-10% damage makes the game completely impossible to calculate and predict yet an event that allows your opponent a free hit at a random moment does not create a random or inconsistent result, "players were just overeacting".

Okay then champ, try to hide the bias a bit.






You either don't understand the mechanic or don't understand how simple algebra works. It will always be the same knockback if the same situation occurs. The outcome of a hit is 100% predictable if you know simple Algebra. Here's an example:

Fresh Up-Smash kills Bowser at 150% launching him 1000 meters. 100% damage gives me a knockback increase of 20%, I can now kill Bowser at 120% with a launch of 840 plus my 20% from rage. See? Consistent, predictably, any player can learn it. The same event will always occur consistently.

The only difference between this and Brawl/Melee is that there is one added variable. Instead of X*Y = knockback it's now X*Y*Z = Knockback. The formula is still consistent. Stop spreading misinformation PLEASE.


You seem to have an agenda in this, because at this point you are just clearly manipulating quotes to try to make me look bad. Incredible.

I never said any of the things you listed here. You are taking quotes out of context.

The person I was replying to was saying that a mechanic can't be bad if it is in a good game.

Everything in this post is a straight up strawman attack. You are acting as if I made an argument I didn't, and then attacking it. And then accusing me of lying.
 
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Black Mantis

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True but just because a combo can only be performed in the corner doesn't mean its inconsistent it means you need to get them in the corner. If you get them in the corner the combo will work. Period. which means that it is consistent.
The point is inconsistent stuff or stuff that only works in certain situations is in every fighting game. The best players figure out a way around it (unless it's OP then it gets banned).
 
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