New Mechanic: The Rage Effect

[EdreesesPieces]

Personally, to me this is slightly an ANTI comeback mechanic. This makes it slightly more likely that first kill wins the match. If you keep yourself at high percentage and build up damage you can get a kill sooner. whereas the character who just came back to 0% will have trouble killing you because his knockback just decrease because he lost a stock and went to 0%. Let's say Im Peach and we're both at 200% and you up throw me with Marth. Damn, i just BARELY survived! Oh wait I just killed you. Now you grab me again and Up throw me, it doesn't even come close to killing me.

It makes it harder for the low percentage character to finish off the high percentage character. Other than the first stock, the low percentage character will usually be the one who is overall behind because they lost their stock first.

Esssentially, the player who is behind will on average deal less knockback than the player in the lead. On average...honestly, the way this mechanic is designed, it can either help you hold a lead leading to more 3 stocks, or it can help you come back leading to more comebacks. It's extremely situational on who the mechanic will help, whether its the leader or the trailer. Factors that play a huge role are:

-Does your character land kill moves at low percentage combos or high percentage combos?
-Does your character have moves that easy to land hits that have enough knockback to kill at very high percents but not low percents? (example Marth Up Throw in Melee.)
-Are you both on your last stocks or is someone on their last stock while someone has 2 stocks left? (If Both on last stocks i'd say it favors whoever is behind, but if someone has a 2 stock lead but is at high percentage and the other player is on last stock, it favors whoever is winning)
-Is your character good at surviving at high percents?

I think it's VERY VERY situational and the mechanic can't be branded as favoring anyone. But If I had to pick, I think in the average match, it would slightly favor the player who gets the first kill.

 

[Strong Badam]

ok

I want to just lay out the facts here

FROM 0% TO ABOUT 70% KNOCKBACK DIFFERENCE FROM RAGE AND KNOCKBACK INFLUENCE/VECTOR INFLUENCE IS ABSOLUTELY TINY AND UNNOTICEABLE

YOU STILL HAVE YOUR COMBOS

edit: big letters so people will read

this is entirely false. comparing horizontal VI to vertical VI changes combo percents wildly for many would-be combo throws. by 30%ish depending on victims.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

hmm, no, i don't think so

 

[Shiliski]

Okay, I've only read the first page so maybe this has already been said, and if it has then ignore me, but...

This is not a catchup mechanic. It may have been intended to be one, and it's easy to see it as one, but it really isn't.

A comeback/catchup mechanic is something like spiny shells in Mario Kart. They only harm the person in first place, and anyone close enough to be caught in the explosion, and in turn everyone who is far enough behind the first placer benefits. It actually allows players who are falling behind to "catch up", which is why it's called a catchup mechanic.

Another example of a catchup mechanic might be Lucario's aura, which not only affects his knockback but also his damage (which is a really important difference, as many have pointed out before) as well as the size/range of (some of) his moves. The size matters because bigger hit-box = easier to hit with and more area control. A Lucario who suffers at 0% might be able to turn things around at 60-70%, because now all of a sudden his character is a lot stronger. Even this is a bit of a shaky use of the definition however, as it could be reasonably argued that this is actually more of a survival bonus than a comeback mechanic, but within the range of a single stock Lucario can still catch up.

In both of these cases, the loser is able at some point to surpass the winner. The loser is able to "catch up".


So why do I say that the Rage mechanic is not a catchup mechanic?

It's simple. Do the math, keeping in mind that the Rage bonus ONLY applies to knockback.

Let's present a hypothetical case. Mario vs Luigi. Mario is playing the game "normally", trying to rack up damage so he can knock out Luigi. Luigi is being oh-so-smart-and-clever and saying "I'll just let Mario hit me and I'll get free knockback from the Rage mechanic!"

Thing is, Mario is getting more knockback, too. He's getting more knockback because Luigi is allowing himself to be damaged...which increases how far Luigi gets knocked back.

Now, things like KB to damage ratios change from one attack to another, and also change depending upon things like the weight of the attacked, and there's a lot of potential number-crunching that can be done here, but we don't need to do that. We can make a clear point just by realizing that Hitting a Damaged Opponent gives a lot more KB than Being Damaged does. So let's just simplify this case and say for every 10% damage you receive, you get knocked back further by 10 kb "points", but you knock back your opponent further by 2 kb "points".

So when Luigi is at X damage, he gets Y kb points and Mario gets Z kb points.
X Y Z
10 2 10
20 4 20
30 6 30
40 8 40
50 10 50
60 12 60
70 14 70
....
150 30 150


Now, I ask you: At what point has Luigi caught up in this scenario? At what point does he surpass his brother in kb potential?

Is it at 20 percent? Clearly not. Is it at 50? Not really. Is it at the cap? Nope. When is it?

Never.

Luigi never catches up.

Because this is not a catch up mechanic. At least, this is not a successful one.

It benefits the loser a bit, but other mechanics benefit the winner a LOT more. Therefore the winner always maintains momentum and always keeps his lead. This is, at best, a small survival bonus, and considering how combos work in Smash the word "bonus" isn't necessarily the correct choice here.

What does this mean for our hypothetical Luigi? Well, as it turns out, his supposed "poor play" actually IS, unironically, very poor play, resulting from a poor understanding of the mechanics. Luigi should've paid more attention during math class. 10x > 2x, for all values of x > 0.

Going back to Mario Kart, let's say there was some version of the game where the guy in 1st gets 3 Mushrooms and and the guy in last gets 0 Mushrooms, and no other items are given in this particular version. All of a sudden that version is changed so that the guy in 1st still gets 3 Mushroom, but the guy in last now gets 1. A single, solitary, mushroom staring into his soul with those blank, dead eyes. That is an analogy of what this Rage mechanic is, and when you look at it that way you can pretty clearly see that no, this is not a catchup mechanic. It's more like a consolation prize.

 

[san.]

Rage seems to be important for jabs, could get some confirmation on this. Some jabs are pretty terrible until 40% where they're only mediocre. By 100%+, you finally have some decent options available. I don't know how opponent's percentage fits into this, though. Perhaps more hitstun?

 

[<π]

I've been messing with rage... guess it doesn't work in training mode?

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I've been messing with rage... guess it doesn't work in training mode?

It doesn't.

 

[<π]

It doesn't.

I was in for glory and I was really excited Jr had a kill throw. I got into training and I couldn't kill with it tilt 170 (from the top plat in battlefield)
Stale moves don't work either in training unless they are part of a combo.

 

[popsofctown]

Does this mechanic impact which of your moves cut through Bowser's Cypher Armor?

 

[Terotrous]

Personally, to me this is slightly an ANTI comeback mechanic...

I basically came here to post the exact same thing. This mechanic actually makes comebacks much LESS likely in a 2 stock match.

- Match is even until both players are in kill range (~120% with most characters)
- Someone lands a killing hit
- The defeated player loses all of their KO power and now the opponent is no longer in kill percentage!
- The player who got the kill tacks on like 30% of free damage until they reach 150%, then can finally be killed.
- They now have a big lead going into the final stock


What this has basically done is eliminated revenge KOs in most situations, you can almost never just come back and get a kill now since at 0% you do so little knockback. The opponent has to be at like 160% for it to be viable.


Long story short, in For Glory, the person who gets the first kill wins like 95% of the time.

 

[Tristan_win]

Necrorise!

After taking some time to look into this I've found that rage is not constant on all moves. At the very least some moves are not effected as much by rage as others.

All testing was done in VS against a level 1 computer mario. The attack used was Sheik Ftilt focusing to hit with the inner thigh due to the tip of the foot having a separate, stronger hit box. Percents were set using needles which do 1% to fractions once decayed and handicap. Only one heavy knock back attack was used per round so at the end of each round Sheik 'Max launcher speed' was recorded.

Sheik 0% 0 Mario
32
Sheik 40% 0 Mario
32
Sheik 50% 0 Mario
32
Sheik 60% 0 Mario
33
Sheik 80% 0 Mario
34
Sheik 100% 0 Mario
34
Sheik 125% 0 Mario
36
Sheik 150% 0 Mario
37
Sheik 200% 0 Mario
37

 

[popsofctown]

Tristan, are you sure Sheik's ftilt isn't just low knockback growth, so both sheik's damage and mario's damage have a lower impact on the knockback increase?

 

[Tristan_win]

Tristan, are you sure Sheik's ftilt isn't just low knockback growth, so both sheik's damage and mario's damage have a lower impact on the knockback increase?

That could very well be the case but it doesn't change the fact how rage does not treat every move the same.

Spoiler

Sheik Ftilt on Mario non tipper but this time with mario damage increasing

Sheik 0% 0% Mario
32
Sheik 0_10% Mario
36
Sheik 0_20% Mario
40
Sheik 0_30% Mario
45
Sheik 0_40% Mario
49
Sheik 0_50% Mario
55
Sheik 0_60% Mario
59
Sheik 0_70% Mario
64
Sheik 0_80% Mario
68
Sheik 0_90% Mario
72
Sheik 0_100% Mario
77
Sheik 0_110% Mario
81
Sheik 0_120% Mario
86
Sheik 0_130% Mario
90
Sheik 0_140% Mario
95
Sheik 0_150% Mario
99

Sheik 0% Mario 0% dthrow
61
Sheik 40% Mario 0% dthrow
62
Sheik 50% Mario 0% dthrow
63
sheik 60% Mario 0% dthrow
63
Sheik 80% Mario 0% dthrow
65
Sheik 100% Mario 0% dthrow
67
Sheik 150 mario 0% dthrow
71

Sheik 0% Mario 0% dthrow
61
Sheik 0% Mario 10% dthrow
63
Sheik 0% Mario 20% dthrow
65
Sheik 0% Mario 30% dthrow
67
Sheik 0% mario 40% dthrow
68
Sheik 0% mario 50% dthrow
70
Sheik 0% mario 60% dthrow
72
Sheik 0% mario 70% dthrow
74
Sheik 0% mario 80% dthrow
75
Sheik 0% mario 90% dthrow
77
Sheik 0% mario 100% dthrow
79
Sheik 0% mario 110% dthrow
81
Sheik 0% mario 120% dthrow
82
Sheik 0% mario 130% dthrow
84
Sheik 0% mario 140% dthrow
86
Sheik 0% mario 150% dthrow
87
Sheik 0% mario 160% dthrow
89
Sheik 0% mario 170% dthrow
91
Sheik 0% mario 180% dthrow
93
Sheik 0% mario 190% dthrow
94
Sheik 0% mario 200% dthrow
96

 

[popsofctown]

So 150% rage takes ftilt from 32 to 37, but takes dthrow from 61 to 71.
150% damage takes ftilt from 32 to 99, but takes dthrow from 61 to 96.

It certainly seems like moves have independent kb growth rates for rage and for damage.

I would expect smash attacks to have the best rage coefficient, from a design standpoint. I suspect Sheik's downthrow and ftilt both have their rage coefficients left at some default, oft used amount, and that ftilt has a damage growth rate that's deliberately higher than dthrow's.

 

[Terotrous]

Well, in Smash, each move has a static amount of knockback and a certain amount of knockback growth based on damage (A move that does totally static knockback has knockback growth = 0). It's possible Rage may only affect knockback growth, which would actually make it even better as it wouldn't ruin combos as much as it could otherwise.

 

[popsofctown]

Well, in Smash, each move has a static amount of knockback and a certain amount of knockback growth based on damage (A move that does totally static knockback has knockback growth = 0). It's possible Rage may only affect knockback growth, which would actually make it even better as it wouldn't ruin combos as much as it could otherwise.

If you mean Rage only increases the knockback growth that would be caused by damage, Tristan_win's data gather already disproves that notion.

 

[Terotrous]

If you mean Rage only increases the knockback growth that would be caused by damage, Tristan_win's data gather already disproves that notion.

I don't see how it does, in order to disprove it we'd need to find a move that has static knockback and test whether or not rage affects it. I'm not sure if any moves are yet known to have static knockback in this game. Perhaps Shine? It was static in Melee (don't know about Brawl).

 

[KuroganeHammer]

why can't we just make the assumption that it's a % increase

i like %

it's nice and simple

I think that it's probably a fair assumption that it increases by about 15%, I think I said this earlier.

What's 32 + 15%? 36.8.

What's 61 + 15%? 70.15.

These numbers don't match up completely, does this mean that the KB values recorded by the game have decimal points? For example, 32.6 + 15% is 37.49, this matches up with the data @ Tristan_win has.

So does 61.8 + 15% (which is 71.07).

This is the only logical explanation I can think of. If we had some bigger numbers, perhaps we could see things...

Oh. I'll just do some max/min tests of Doc Mario's fsmash!

Edit:

Max Rage Fsmash vs 300% Jiggs: Game Reported KB: 468
No Rage Fsmash vs 300% Jiggs: Game Reported KB: 420

420 + 15% is 483

so that theory just went out the window rofl

i have no idea

edit: WHAT IF IT CAPS AT 48 KB?
SHULK WITH SMASH
Max Rage Fsmash vs 300% Jiggs: Game Reported KB: 556
No Rage Fsmash vs 300% Jiggs: Game Reported KB: 495

k that theory out the window too

****

 

[<π]

I can't wait till you guys figure this stuff out for me.

 

[Tristan_win]

I decided to do some quick testing on a bunch of sheik moves. Right now I'm missing Uair, Fair, tipper usmash, uair, dair (which I will do last if at all) dtilt, utilt. So far throws and some smashes have the most scaling.

Hope it helps.

Spoiler

Dthrow
Sheik 0%
61
Sheik 100%
67
Sheik 200%
71
Difference 10
Sheik 100% = +30% on mario
Uair [See note.]
Sheik 0% Mario at 6% (Used a dthrow) total 14%
61
Sheik 0% Mario at 6% (Used a dthrow) total 14%
71
Difference 10
Fthrow
Sheik 0%
60
Fthrow 100%
65
Sheik 200%
69
Difference 9
Sheik 100% = +40% on mario
Bthrow
Sheik 0%
64
Sheik 100%
70
Sheik 200%
74
Differences 10
Sheik at 100% = +60% on mario
Uthrow
Sheik 0%
59
Sheik 100%
64
Sheik 200%
68
Differences 11
Sheik at 100% = +40% on mario
Fsmash 2nd hit
Sheik 0%
55
Sheik 100%
60
Sheik 200%
64
Difference 9
Sheik at 100% = +10% on mario
Dsmash
Sheik 0%
45
Sheik 100%
49
Sheik 200%
53
Difference 8
Sheik at 100% = +6% on mario
Usmash side hit.
Sheik 0%
42
Sheik 100%
45
Sheik 200%
48
Difference 6
Sheik at 100% = +5% on mario
Bouncing Fish
Sheik 0%
33
Sheik 100%
36
Sheik 200%
38
Difference 5
Sheik 100% = +5% on mario
Vanish
Sheik 0%
53
Sheik 100%
57
Sheik 200%
60
Differences 7
Sheik 100% = +6% on mario
Bair Strong foot 11%
Sheik 0%
37
Sheik 100%
40
Sheik 200%
42
Differences 5
Sheik 100% = +6% on mario
Bair strong 10%
Sheik 0%
35
Sheik 100%
38
Sheik 200%
41
Differences 6
Sheik 100% = +5% on Mario
Ftilt
Sheik 0%
32
Sheik 100%
34
Sheik 200%
37
Difference 5
Sheik 100% = +5% on Mario
Dtilt
Sheik 0%
33
Sheik 100%
36
Sheik 200%
38
Differences 5
Sheik 100% = +8% on Mario
Utilt
Sheik 0%
31
Sheik 100%
34
Sheik 200%
36
Differences 5
Sheik 100% = +5% on Mario
Strong nair
Sheik 0%
27
Sheik 100%
29
Sheik 200%
31
Differences 4
Sheik 100% =+4% on Mario
Weak Nair
Sheik 0%
25
Sheik 100%
27
Sheik 200%
29
Differences 4
Sheik 100% =+5% on Mario
Backwards Weak nair
Sheik 0%
24
Sheik 100%
27
Sheik 200%
28
Differences 4
edit: Side B, mario will have 15% once finished
Sheik 0%
40
Sheik 100%
40
Sheik 200%
40
Differences 0
Fair
Sheik 0%
41
Sheik 100%
45
Sheik 200%
48
Differences 7
Sheik 100% = +8% on Mario
Note: I felt it was suspicious that dthrow and uair match so I waited around until a level 1 mario would jump for me to do uair and got some strange results. I would get 54-74 max launcher speed with Sheik and Mario at 0%. Is this a glitch or does sheik uair get increase knock back while landing uair while rising? Basically the exact opposite to why uair spikes if you land it while fast falling and manage to avoid the last hit?

 

[Pikabunz]

Did you guys give up on this? I'm thinking rage affects only base knockback and the maximum increase is 15%, like what Aero said.

 

[popsofctown]

Does rage affect shield damage? Sometimes DK side B randomly breaks a fresh shield and i'm wondering if that's why.

 

[Terotrous]

Does rage affect shield damage? Sometimes DK side B randomly breaks a fresh shield and i'm wondering if that's why.

It shouldn't, since shield damage is based on damage and not knockback, and rage only affects knockback.

There's probably either a sweet spot on DK's sideB or depending on positioning it might have the ability to hit twice.

 

[Pikabunz]

Oh and btw, Terotrous. I found a move with static knockback and rage does affect it. The move I tested was the first hit of Mario's UpB on Jigglypuff. It always did 79 knockback regardless of puff's percent and with full rage, it does 92 knockback.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

It shouldn't, since shield damage is based on damage and not knockback, and rage only affects knockback.

There's probably either a sweet spot on DK's sideB or depending on positioning it might have the ability to hit twice.

Does rage affect shield damage? Sometimes DK side B randomly breaks a fresh shield and i'm wondering if that's why.

You can Side B once with DK and break someones shield.

 

[Terotrous]

Oh and btw, Terotrous. I found a move with static knockback and rage does affect it. The move I tested was the first hit of Mario's UpB on Jigglypuff. It always did 79 knockback regardless of puff's percent and with full rage, it does 92 knockback.

Interesting. You should try out Fox's Down B or something, it's likely also static.

 

[Tagxy]

If we found 2-3 static knockback moves, we can figure out if it just affects base knockback or base knockback and knockback growth. Maybe we could know that with just one but 2-3 is safer.

 

[SmashWolf]

So after such a long time....did anybody figure out what the POINT of this mechanic really is other than make the game less reliable and harder to adjust to for everyone involved?

 

[Shiliski]

So after such a long time....did anybody figure out what the POINT of this mechanic really is other than make the game less reliable and harder to adjust to for everyone involved?

I'm not really sure. I'm not sure what it fixes, or what it prevents, if anything.

 

[zDuck]

The mechanic is sort of silly I think... There's a point in a tournament set this weekend where a rosalina dash attacked me and I barely survived. If the rosalina had been a worse player and face tanked more projectiles I would've died. It's a very very strange thing to think about.

 

[srn347]

The way I see it rage is neither inherently comeback nor inherently anti-comeback, it can vary by the situation. If the players are equal in lives and unequal in damage, rage helps the player behind be more likely to get the first kill ("more likely" meaning comparative to their chance if rage weren't a thing, they're usually still less likely to get the first kill than the player that's ahead). Once someone gets a kill, rage switches from helping the player who's ahead to hindering him/her, since the player with the rage effect now needs to build up damage rather than kill, and rage hinders combos.

Also fwiw, I'm not sure how helpful this is going to be but I feel it's worth sharing: projectiles factor in rage when they hit rather than when they're thrown (though oddly enough aura doesn't work the same way). You would not believe the amount of testing this took to ascertain.

 

[Raethien]

Rage is something that Lucario should not have.

 

[srn347]

To be fair, his aura mechanic does also make his attacks weaker below a certain amount (about 75% in smash 4).

 

[MagiusNecros]

Gonna weasel my way into this topic just to ask what Smashboards thinks are the most optimal characters that get the best benefit out of the rage mechanic?

 

[LightLV]

Gonna weasel my way into this topic just to ask what Smashboards thinks are the most optimal characters that get the best benefit out of the rage mechanic?

Without a doubt, Bowser and Gannondorf. The effects are unmistakable with those two, you will die at 60%. Other powerhouses like Ike and Link as well. Generally, anyone who's heavier than usual will get more benefit because they can keep it longer.

Lucario also has a funny relationship with it. You'll get killed by the stupidest things with that character when aura+rage is activated. I mean, suck your teeth, roll your eyes stupid ****.

 

[srn347]

Heavier characters tend to benefit from rage because they can incur higher amounts of it and for longer amounts of time. Especially the ones that don't combo much, as that's the one downside to rage; if you get the first kill, your rage makes it harder to rack up combo damage before getting revenge killed. This downside is practically nonexistent for heavies like bowser and ganon.

 

[TheAnomaly]

Gonna weasel my way into this topic just to ask what Smashboards thinks are the most optimal characters that get the best benefit out of the rage mechanic?

Captain Falcon without a doubt. He lives forever so he gets plenty of time to use it and his moves seem to be super affected by rage as well as him having the sheer speed to just punish you more often. In rage basically everything Falcon has becomes a kill move with the right stage positioning. d tilt, both versions of jab, forward and back throw will all kill at the edge of the stage a lot earlier and these are relatively easy moves to connect. Raptor boost chases rolls and kills earlier. Falcon kick kills NOTICEABLY earlier with rage and his aerials were already pretty amazing to begin with.
With some characters you only have to worry about a few kill moves plus a few other that might kill in rage. with falcon you must be wary of everything AND his speed.
Btw a Rosalina in rage is also no fun because luma is ridiculous in rage.

 

[CelloLuCC]

I find it silly. It's rewarding players for getting hit, and if they are even and one gets the kill and is barely winning, he gets handicapped. I feel as Sakurai is still trying to lower the skill cap in any way he can

EDIT: In response to the above post with weegee and Mario that I don't want to quote:

So it's a "I'm getting out played, but it's ok because I'm still somewhat tied"
I can't understand this. It's lowering the reward of landing hits and encouraging getting hit.

 

[PUK]

No you didn't understand how this mecanic works.

 

[LightLV]

I find it silly. It's rewarding players for getting hit, and if they are even and one gets the kill and is barely winning, he gets handicapped. I feel as Sakurai is still trying to lower the skill cap in any way he can

EDIT: In response to the above post with weegee and Mario that I don't want to quote:

So it's a "I'm getting out played, but it's ok because I'm still somewhat tied"
I can't understand this. It's lowering the reward of landing hits and encouraging getting hit.

Positives for having high %
- More knockback, which means better KO potential without having to bridge the damage gap your opponent.
- If you're up a stock, and can still manage to deal damage, you can KO your opponent much faster than your last stock
- If you're down a stock, it helps remove that stock faster
- One good lucky hit = you can KO probably 30~40% before your opponent can

Negatives for having high %
- You're about to die
- If you're up a stock, your combo potential is nerfed. (Not that big a negative IMO)


Rage is one of those things in Smash 4 where i can't tell if its intentional or just more wacky BS to further convolute the game's mechanics, similar to the way brawl included tripping and bloated stale move scaling. In one sense, it acts as a direct counter to Brawl's ridiculous stale move changes. On the other, it just continues the trend of adding a mechanic that further destroys the gap between winner and loser in a match.

The only thing Rage really does is finally provide a true benefit to being a heavyweight. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem like Rage was implemented with any kind of specific character balancing or move-based balancing, so in other regards it just seems wonky. It would have been cool balance-wise if Rage was implemented to specific moves, and maybe using one would make your character flash red or something so you'd know it has boosted KO potential, and not interfere with other combo moves. But this is where I doubt Rage was given much thought balance-wise outside "give them a comeback mechanic".

....so ultimately the only thing Rage really does is make eyes roll into space anytime a random ass KO spark appears off a lucky hit when someone is trying to secure a kill on someone severely losing. Smash 4, working as intended.