*NEW* matchup discussion week #2: Snake!

[§witch]

Why does everyone think all Falco has is a chain spike? It's not. Get over it. If we can't land it, it's not a massive hit. Snake can't camp as well as Falco, stop being silly.

I'm not going to make a joke about your obvious lack of reading comprehension, that would be below the belt.

Merely because I stated that the chain-spike will not affect Snake, does not mean that I said that it is the be-all-and-end-all of the match-up. The chain-spike is an obvious advantage, though as everyone who has played actually good players knows, you do not chain-spike often at all in tournament.

Stage control is what this entire match-up comes down to, Snake and Falco both control the stage phenomenally well, and who has the advantage is extremely stage dependent. Falco is slightly better than Snake on FD and Snake is slightly better than Falco on BF.

Though the simple fact that when it comes down to KO'ing Snake beats falco hands-down gives Snake the edge.

 

[swordsaint]

Falcos much safer though. And BF is really a personal problem, it's a good stage.

now imo, falco's ability to control the stage against snake is better. Falco's able to prey on snakes weaknesses and habits much more than he can.

but yes, I admit I went over the top with it. sorry, though if they camp and take damage to remove our chain grab. it's the same as getting chain grabbed. we won't be getting hit from their nade camping and he's not wario to be able to chip in damage every now and then.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

On top level play, it's 55:45 snakes advantage

on anything under that, it's 60:40 snakes advantage

 

[swordsaint]

Why do all the Falco mains think Falcos got so many bad match ups? arggggggg

 

[§witch]

55:45 isn't a bad match-up.

 

[swordsaint]

It's a negative one though, I just don't agree that it is. -.-

 

[smashkng]

55/45 is a very even matchup, just very slightly in the opponent's favour.

 

[swordsaint]

Which as I said, I don't agree with. ;-;

 

[MetalMusicMan]

Yeah 55 - 45 is still neutral, just a slight advantage, and Snake definitely has at least a slight advantage in this matchup IMO.

I think 55 - 45 advantaged to Snake is pretty fair overall really.

 

[clowsui]

i'll play infern and make sure but i honestly think this MU is in our favor >__>

 

[swordsaint]

yay clowsui! I love you long time!

 

[Denzi]

Someone needs to get more Snakes in here. Falcos are getting nowhere fast, too many different opinions.

 

[Vlade]

I think it's 60:40 Snake's favour

I'll post why later

 

[gopobox]

Might like to add that snake has really good edge guarding.
Since no one mentioned it.

 

[AvoiD]

lul, I'm a Snake main also. ];

I suggest getting people like Nappy and Underload from Snake boards, they're 2 of the most intelligent Snake Boarders.

 

[Yumewomiteru]

Yeah, Snake boarders are lacking pros cept for like Ran and Nappy lol. We're getting like nowhere fast.

But I also main Snake and I say its even.

 

[swordsaint]

Vlade, 60/40 Snake?

That's just wrong. Man, why do I even bother.

 

[MetalMusicMan]

I dunno Sword... I'm still leaning towards 55-45 Snake or even 60-40 Snake.

I still haven't really seen any good evidence as to why it would be 50-50 or in Falco's favor. DEHF said it was, so that makes me wonder, but he didn't explain anything, he just sort of said it... so I don't see a lot of reasoning behind that thought yet :\

I mean people have said Lasers outcamp nades... that's not true. Then people say you have to maintain a lead... well that sounds like the PLAYER outplaying the Snake, not the CHARACTER.

 

[Underload]

I suggest getting people like Nappy and Underload from Snake boards, they're 2 of the most intelligent Snake Boarders.

Oh, my ego, it feels amazing...

I had no clue this discussion was going on, until I saw Yume's post as the most recent post on the character boards. I guess I'll put in a few words, but not about what you're thinking of.

I'm a huge proponent of top-level play defining the overall metagame of a fighter. But I'm also against traditional matchup discussion, because there's usually too much individual playstyle mixed into a fighter boil a matchup down to pure facts. For example, Falco is very well suited for a rushdown mind reading playstyle. But it's usually safer to play relaxed and campy with him, and slow the game down to give yourself an inherent advantage. Both styles are like opposite ends of a spectrum, but both have been proven to work. Snake, also, has the arsenal to sit back and fire / throw things at you for 8 minutes, but his tilts and throws are also at such a level where you're just tempted to run up and hit somebody. Whichever aspect you take advantage of the most makes up your playstyle. And because of this, it becomes near impossible to bring a MU discussion down to the mere facts, because there's always one thing stacking on top of another.

Here's Larry vs. Ally from ActiveGamers. Most of the match is made up of pokes, prods, and reads, with an error of judgment usually deciding who loses a stock. The match ends with Larry winning, final stock, ~140%. From this whole set, you can deem that Snake vs. Falco is a pretty even matchup, maybe even slightly in Falco's favor.

Here's SK92 vs. Mojoe. Do you get the same feeling from this match that you did from Larry vs. Ally? Pokes, prods, reads, neck and neck? Of course not.

To wrap things up quickly, I have no **** clue what to make of this matchup, or any matchup that isn't a ditto (those are easy). If I had to stick to traditional thinking, then I'd go 55:45 in Falco's favor, just because it's easier for Falco to apply pressure and make Snake approach than the reverse. And although most damage comes from pokes and prods, Falco can do a little something called dthrow. It could very well be 50:50, though. Larry said it, and if anyone has an intelligent opinion, he does.

Oh, and Larry vs. Ally is a good indicator of what the matchup is, while SK92 vs. Mojoe is just unfair, because SK92 is leagues better than Mojoe will ever be. I just wanted to look smart.

I rambled. Sorry. Maybe you can pull something useful out of that post, though :/ I felt like posting my thoughts.

 

[swordsaint]

Underload rules. lol.

So far the most common opinions have been 50/50 or 55/45 Falco's favour, with a couple of 55-45 Snake's.
Both Underload and Larry who are arguably two knowledgeable players think it could be Falco's favour. I don't know about you, but this is enough for me.

 

[Infern Angelis]

I would say its 50/50. Both characters have the ability to out gay each other

 

[DEHF]

I dunno Sword... I'm still leaning towards 55-45 Snake or even 60-40 Snake.

I still haven't really seen any good evidence as to why it would be 50-50 or in Falco's favor. DEHF said it was, so that makes me wonder, but he didn't explain anything, he just sort of said it... so I don't see a lot of reasoning behind that thought yet :\

I mean people have said Lasers outcamp nades... that's not true. Then people say you have to maintain a lead... well that sounds like the PLAYER outplaying the Snake, not the CHARACTER.

The reason Falco vs Snake is even or in Falco's favor is Falco's ability to hit snake into bad positions. Firstly, Falco has a 0-50 chain grab into a spike which can cause snake to be off the edge. When he's at that point, the way he recovers will result him to come back at about 80-100%, possibly higher or even dead. If Snake gets spike onto the stage you can predict how he will roll. Again, this can result in him having 80-100% at the end of this. If you don't predict him correctly, oh well he's at about 60ish%.

Your main objective in this match up is to keep snake in the air facing you. When he's in the position, his best options or to air dodge or pull out a grenade. Dash attack up smash is a great move in this match up. It gives close to 30% damage and sends them right above you. If you are incredibly precise with u air those two options won't matter since you can hit him without hitting the grenade and if he air dodges uair you can do another aerial before he has enough time to do anything about it. Snake, being so heavy won't go too far so you should be able to follow up something else. Depending on how well you shut his options down in the air, he can be juggled his entire stock or until killing %.

Killing Snake can be difficult since he can live for so long, but you a have a variety of ways to do so. If you can hit a ground snake with dair, he can't do much except for air dodge. This put you in the perfect position to f smash. If you're afraid to f smash, you can short hop u air to force an air dodge which will give you enough time to u smash. Even if he isn't at killing % when you hit him with a smash, you can chase him in the air and finish him off with a uair or bair depending on where he is in the air. If you can hit him with a smash at about 110 or 120 you should be able to kill him with a uair or bair depending on how high in the air he is.

Whenever you play a Snake he always does a great deal of damage whenever he hits you, but he's not too great on follow up attacks. What I'm saying is once he gives that 20% you're usually put back in a neutral position or in a place where he can't hit you again. Even when he's in complete control of the stage the most damage he'll ever get from follow ups or good predictations is 40% max. Falco on the other hand can give snake anywhere from 20-60% whenever he makes good follow ups and can result in snake being off the stage or above you.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

if dehf posts informative it's so wuvely <3

50/50

 

[Underload]

If the Falco boards are smart, they'll just copy / paste DEHF's posts and call it a summary.

 

[MetalMusicMan]

Thanks for the explanation, DEHF. Much appreciated.

 

[Yumewomiteru]

Ily DEHF <3

 

[Denzi]

So is the final verdict for this one 50:50? I'll go ahead and put it up then.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Dair actually works as an amazing spike here, so (even though it doesn't matter what I say anymore...) 60:40 Falco :D *thumbs up!!*

 

[Denzi]

Dair actually works as an amazing spike here, so (even though it doesn't matter what I say anymore...) 60:40 Falco :D *thumbs up!!*

No way, you don't even know what you're doing.

 

[Z'zgashi]

No way, you don't even know what you're doing.

If you put him in a bad position for recovery and force his cypher (or stop with laser to force another) , you can stop him with a well timed dair a lot of the time. Usually I dont dair offstage, but in this circumstance I do. You should try it out sometimes, most don't do it so its often a sorry surprise for snake. (this doesn't mean kill with it every time, I just meant to score a one time ko for an advantage)

 

[Denzi]

If you put him in a bad position for recovery and force his cypher (or stop with laser to force another) , you can stop him with a well timed dair a lot of the time. Usually I dont dair offstage, but in this circumstance I do. You should try it out sometimes, most don't do it so its often a sorry surprise for snake. (this doesn't mean kill with it every time, I just meant to score a one time ko for an advantage)

We already factored in the CG spike when we figured the ratio. You can force a C4 recovery maybe once, But intelligent Snakes will be sure to recover high and away, making Dair almost as situational as the grab release kill as a damage racker.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Hmm yes i see what you mean, dair isn't an amazing kill move and definitely isn't a super reliable ko, but you can still bait there C4 recovery for uair or bair off the ledge if your quick enough.

 

[Denzi]

Hmm yes i see what you mean, dair isn't an amazing kill move and definitely isn't a super reliable ko, but you can still bait there C4 recovery for uair or bair off the ledge if your quick enough.

Actually that depends on which direction he Snake DIs the C4. Like I said, most Snakes that know what they're doing will DI up and away, preventing further interference. Even at high %'s, it's possible for Snake to walltech jump -> Wavebounce grenade to avoid our attack.

 

[Omniturtle]

I feel pretty confident in this match-up. It is true that Falco dies at very low % against Snake's ******** Utilt; however, with a good perfect shield game combined with jab mixups, you can even ground approach him while you're at high enough % to die. Snake's forward tilt will destroy this tactic over time, but it can be used sparingly, just as most effective approaches can. The bottom line is that Falco has almost every situation on his side as far as racking damage goes. Snake has only two options for damaging Falco: tech-chasing dthrows, and tilting/punishing with tilts. Neither one of these involve approaching, so while Falco outcamps Snake, he really holds the advantage overall.

Snake can easily rack up enough damage to kill falco in just a few moves, but with proper DI, the Snake will have to earn every one of those moves individually. Like stated before, Snake can only get one tilt off and it will send Falco into neutral position again. Falco has the ability to send Snake into a bad position with every attack, and can rack up damage in many more situations than Snake can. Killing him is tough though.

Rely on bair, and OoS dairs and bairs to put him in killing position. I personally love OoS Nairing to rack up damage at mid %. This gets a few good hits, and sends Snake nearly straight forward for laser followups, and can get him off stage. The biggest issue with killing Snake is that your Bair WILL be stale by the time you can use it to kill him. Try your best to mix up the moves you hit Snake with; using Uair and Nair help alot with this. Lasering and a well-timed reflector at high % can both help freshen your Bair and smashes too. (actually, maybe a long shot, but does anyone know if reflecting a grenade counts as using the move, if you're just trying to 8-move-refresh your Bair? You probably have to hit Snake, or a stage object (I love castle siege for this)) If you can hit Snake with an OoS Nair and Dair, an Ftilt, a jab, laser, reflector, Phantasm, and a throw (multiple throws can replace Ftilt which is hard to use against Snake) at high %, you will be completely Fresh on every kill move. This seems like a lot of work, but they are all easy to hit, especially since you won't be busy trying anything else at mid-high %. Keep a checklist in mind while racking damage, and you'll be all set to kill with a well-placed Fsmash, Bair, or Usmash. This tactic frees you up to actually use those three moves at lower %. Fsmash is particularly amazing for surprising out of a chaingrab. Dash attack-usmash is great too. Don't be afrain to use them at low % as long as you know how to freshen them up.

When you are around 90+%, watch out for Utilts (duh). At this time, Snake will almost always wait around in standing position, rather than crouching, which is great for lasers. Remind him that you can laser the heck out of his while he's standing, and he'll start crouching again. This makes it a bit tougher for him to pull his Utilt out instantly as you can then try to approach him.

Grenades can be very annoying. Especially for Chaingrabbing. Here's a trick to never blow yourself up if Snake pulls a nade during your chaingrab. Snake has to time a grenade pull very quickly in order to get it out before your next grab. This means he will not be focusing on trying to wiggle out of the grab itself. Take your time. Don't buffer the throw while grabbing. Listen for a pin sound inbetween grabs, and pause for a second after the grab. If he pulled a nade, switch to Back or Up throw. This is untested, but I'm pretty sure the throw itself doesnt set off the grenade. The lasers have a good chance of exploding the grenade at a safe distance and giving Snake just a bit more damage. Sure, this kills the opportunity to Chain-spike him, but if he pulled a grenade, you couldn't have done that anyway. Also, if you're brave, and good at timing, you can try holding him a bit longer before back throwing him, to cook the grenade a bit longer. This is risky though. Keep in mind that both Back throw and Up throw put Snake in a bad position (the air, and possibly offstage).

I definitely agree with 50-50 matchup here. Just lay smart, and Grab as often as you can.

 

[Lord Chair]

So long as you properly buffer the grabs, you don't have to worry about Snake pulling a nade during the CG.

 

[SSSnake]

I feel pretty confident in this match-up. It is true that Falco dies at very low % against Snake's ******** Utilt; however, with a good perfect shield game combined with jab mixups, you can even ground approach him while you're at high enough % to die. Snake's forward tilt will destroy this tactic over time, but it can be used sparingly, just as most effective approaches can. The bottom line is that Falco has almost every situation on his side as far as racking damage goes. Snake has only two options for damaging Falco: tech-chasing dthrows, and tilting/punishing with tilts. Neither one of these involve approaching, so while Falco outcamps Snake, he really holds the advantage overall.

Snake can easily rack up enough damage to kill falco in just a few moves, but with proper DI, the Snake will have to earn every one of those moves individually. Like stated before, Snake can only get one tilt off and it will send Falco into neutral position again. Falco has the ability to send Snake into a bad position with every attack, and can rack up damage in many more situations than Snake can. Killing him is tough though.

Rely on bair, and OoS dairs and bairs to put him in killing position. I personally love OoS Nairing to rack up damage at mid %. This gets a few good hits, and sends Snake nearly straight forward for laser followups, and can get him off stage. The biggest issue with killing Snake is that your Bair WILL be stale by the time you can use it to kill him. Try your best to mix up the moves you hit Snake with; using Uair and Nair help alot with this. Lasering and a well-timed reflector at high % can both help freshen your Bair and smashes too. (actually, maybe a long shot, but does anyone know if reflecting a grenade counts as using the move, if you're just trying to 8-move-refresh your Bair? You probably have to hit Snake, or a stage object (I love castle siege for this)) If you can hit Snake with an OoS Nair and Dair, an Ftilt, a jab, laser, reflector, Phantasm, and a throw (multiple throws can replace Ftilt which is hard to use against Snake) at high %, you will be completely Fresh on every kill move. This seems like a lot of work, but they are all easy to hit, especially since you won't be busy trying anything else at mid-high %. Keep a checklist in mind while racking damage, and you'll be all set to kill with a well-placed Fsmash, Bair, or Usmash. This tactic frees you up to actually use those three moves at lower %. Fsmash is particularly amazing for surprising out of a chaingrab. Dash attack-usmash is great too. Don't be afrain to use them at low % as long as you know how to freshen them up.

When you are around 90+%, watch out for Utilts (duh). At this time, Snake will almost always wait around in standing position, rather than crouching, which is great for lasers. Remind him that you can laser the heck out of his while he's standing, and he'll start crouching again. This makes it a bit tougher for him to pull his Utilt out instantly as you can then try to approach him.

Grenades can be very annoying. Especially for Chaingrabbing. Here's a trick to never blow yourself up if Snake pulls a nade during your chaingrab. Snake has to time a grenade pull very quickly in order to get it out before your next grab. This means he will not be focusing on trying to wiggle out of the grab itself. Take your time. Don't buffer the throw while grabbing. Listen for a pin sound inbetween grabs, and pause for a second after the grab. If he pulled a nade, switch to Back or Up throw. This is untested, but I'm pretty sure the throw itself doesnt set off the grenade. The lasers have a good chance of exploding the grenade at a safe distance and giving Snake just a bit more damage. Sure, this kills the opportunity to Chain-spike him, but if he pulled a grenade, you couldn't have done that anyway. Also, if you're brave, and good at timing, you can try holding him a bit longer before back throwing him, to cook the grenade a bit longer. This is risky though. Keep in mind that both Back throw and Up throw put Snake in a bad position (the air, and possibly offstage).

I definitely agree with 50-50 matchup here. Just lay smart, and Grab as often as you can.

interesting. anyway imo when you mix falco and snake in the match-up blender 55% of your smoothie is blue with a grey vest and the other 45% is a hardcore man in a suit with a belt of C-4 attached to it. but when you take it out of the blender to drink you can taste the sour lasers and CGs over the sweet taste of "nades". CGs are overshadowed be the nades, but when it meets the lasers it itself is slightly overshadowed in field control. i dont know if im disagreeing with the common opinion, but there is 55% sour and 45% sweet in this match-up smoothie.

 

[BetaZealot]

I think it's even, but I really wanna say its not cause Candy wrecks me whenever I play him. :[

 

[Viperdev]

I think it's even, but I really wanna say its not cause Candy wrecks me whenever I play him. :[

He probable just out plays you.

 

[jinkogunai]

id say its 55 - 45 snakes way because although falco has a good chaingrab - death combo, when thats no more, its hard to kill snake and falco has a hard time gettin back on the stage safely (nades, snakes tilts, usmash, etc). its true he also has a problem gettin back, but the options falco can use has less killing potential then snake's overall. adding to the fact that falco can get killed relatively easy and snake racks up damage like an alcoholic rack up d.u.i.s gives him a definite advantage.

 

[SSSnake]

id say its 55 - 45 snakes way because although falco has a good chaingrab - death combo, when thats no more, its hard to kill snake and falco has a hard time gettin back on the stage safely (nades, snakes tilts, usmash, etc). its true he also has a problem gettin back, but the options falco can use has less killing potential then snake's overall. adding to the fact that falco can get killed relatively easy and snake racks up damage like an alcoholic rack up d.u.i.s gives him a definite advantage.

hard to kill him? bdacus my friend.