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*NEW* Falco Match-Up Thread ~ Week #13: Olimar

M@v

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Falco doesn't lose to ROB and GW(although Im probably alone on the second statement).

But yeah, DDD, pretty much what Larry said. Camp him and he cant do much. I was playing co18 , and the only thing I was having trouble with was he was ****** me off stage with those bairs. Any tips on getting around them? It was wifi, i would of cancelled my illusions otherwise to throw off his timing.
 

Wulfy07

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Eh, I try to fast fall and phantasm below him, but I think on Wifi you just have to change up how you recover if you can't get the cancel timing.

We should be talking about Snake though... Or maybe we should just move on to Diddy since no one seems inclined to discuss the bomber match up.
 

Wulfy07

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Would anyone object to the idea that Snake versus Falco is 50-50?
 

Teran

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It'd be in our favour if Snake's crouch camping wasn't so gay and effective.
 

Wulfy07

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I think that Falco, for all the experience we've had since the game's release, is still evolving. Since there are some threats to seriously hurt our spot on the tier list, I wouldn't be surprised to see an improvement in the future Falco metagame because of the sheer number of options he has. In relation to the Snake match up in particular, I think it will eventually become Falcos favor.
 

M@v

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Camp you ****ing *** off vs snake. I had some good matches with takeover. As tempting as it is, make him come to you no matter what.
 

DEHF

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You can approach Snake, you just have to be careful about it
 

Jon?

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When Snake is just crawling to counter your laser camping, do you laser camp more or try to approach?
 

Teran

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The point of discussion isn't about ratios, the point of discussion is to fully understand all points of the matchup.

Some random new guy coming in isn't really going to be encouraged if he just sees "lol 50/50" without any explanation as to why.

Your call though, I can't actually tell you what to do if you're following the rules.
 

DEHF

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I could see discussing the match ups that are pretty close or that people have problems with, but see no reason to discuss a match up like ganon or something like that.
 

MetalMusicMan

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I'm not sure if this is how it's already done or not, but I think we should probably just be discussing down to the point where we get some decent overall agreement on the ratios. Then, once we have those, someone can read over these posts and make a summary of them along with strengths / weaknesses.

Speaking of, is the general consensus on MK / Snake that both are 50:50? I'm not sure, given the relative inconclusiveness of these conversations.


I could see discussing the match ups that are pretty close or that people have problems with, but see no reason to discuss a match up like ganon or something like that.
I agree, to a point; we don't need to get super into detail for each matchup, but I don't think that we should just avoid any and all explanation just because it's "lawl ganon".

I'm going to personally volunteer for writing up the explanation of the Falco vs Link matchup, since I've played Legan once a week for like 2 years. I can pretty much guarantee that I have played far more matches against a (the) top level Link than any other Falco.
 

Denzi

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I'll probably have the next thread up by tomorrow, but I can't say for sure. I'm kinda busy with semester finals right now.
 

o0 DR3W 0o

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I'll probably have the next thread up by tomorrow, but I can't say for sure. I'm kinda busy with semester finals right now.
Which character?


Also don't just ignore characters that we have a huge advantage over (Ganon, Link, etc), just do the more important ones first.
 

Overswarm

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Robs agree with me, falco wins the mu

visit robs boards for proof D:
I don't. It's in ROB's favor, but only very slightly.


Falco's fall speed doesn't allow him to fall ontop of ROB (we have guaranteed u-tilt or d-smash) and a RAR'd up+b bair from anywhere off stage makes the rest of Falco's recovery easily edgeguarded. The key for ROB is edgeguarding and staying on the ground. ROB's ground game rivals Falco's in this matchup in the sense that Falco's winning out in a ground exchange does very little but maintain the status quo while ROB getting a jab or f-tilt off can lead to some serious followups. At many %, jab-grab is guaranteed, and at higher % jab-f-smash can be guaranteed unless you're DIing the jab (never happens).

It hasn't been picked up by ROBs, but a grab on many characters leads to a guaranteed d-throw to up+b follow up combo.

ROB's main problem (as mentioned prior) is getting KOs. He has the ability to do tons of damage in a short period of time, he can pressure Falco into shining or shielding prematurely simply by holding a gyro, and has some really easy low % edgeguards. Since ROB's ground game is decent in this MU, he generally wants to just powershield lasers and stay on the ground until the fight starts. Since Falco can outcamp ROB if he gets momentum, this is a better strategy for ROB.

Not unwinnable by any means, but not in Falco's favor at all. Falco is the reactionary character in this matchup and requires the stage to be in his favor to use his optimum strategy while ROB has multiple CPs.

Assuming Falco gets a counterpick guaranteed for his starter (common in many areas) and his normal CP, I'd say the matchup is dead even. With a fair match, slightly ROB's favor.
 

Overswarm

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I care about me.



Something I am curious about: can you combo ROB out of your d-tilt at low %?
 

#HBC | ZoZo

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Dtilt? Why do you even have interest in that move?
Dtilt combos into jab/grab on 0-10% or something, after that it's pretty much the same position as the dair bounce, just a lil higher (depending on staling ofc)
 

MetalMusicMan

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Assuming Falco gets a counterpick guaranteed for his starter (common in many areas) and his normal CP, I'd say the matchup is dead even. With a fair match, slightly ROB's favor.
I generally agree, it's either 50-50 or 55:45 one way or the other depending on stage, etc.

Both characters can just annoy each other so well and neither can kill easily. ROB has an easier time because of gimps but often Falco can combo the crap out of him if he catches him too.
 

#HBC | ZoZo

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overswarm, tell me

can rob outcamp falco?
can rob approach falco?
can rob avoid falcos kill moves?

for as far as my experience reaches, the answer is no to all 3.
 

Overswarm

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Dtilt? Why do you even have interest in that move?
Dtilt combos into jab/grab on 0-10% or something, after that it's pretty much the same position as the dair bounce, just a lil higher (depending on staling ofc)
D-tilt's trajectory basically puts ROB in the worst position possible. Above and right in front of the enemy. No matter waht ROB does, if you stand in this position and shield he can do absolutely nothing.

Seriously, his best option is to reverse gyro cancel slowfall bair spotdodge.

That's to land.

If d-tilt could somehow be used extensively in this matchup, I could see it easily becoming in falcos favor. ROB is easily punished from this position, but has many tricks to get to the ground if you over commit from far away.

I feel like Falco's lasers are more of a parlor trick in this matchup. You can't rely on them, and Falco hurts in terms of having safe approach options without a good laser opening. D-tilt is perfect vs. ROB though, except for the fact that it sucks in every fashion other than trajectory.


can rob outcamp falco?
can rob approach falco?
can rob avoid falcos kill moves?
yes yes and yes.

If ROB has a gyro in his hand, the matchup is in his favor. He can glide toss into anything he wants as you jump if he spaces himself correctly. Other than that, he has to (painstakingly) shield the lasers properly and not get janked by a tricky Falco approach out of the blue. ROB's defensive options are some of the best in the game. ROB can also laser out of a powershield if you're double lasering and hit you, but I found a Falco randomly stopping to just standing laser can really throw a wrench in projectile wars. Depending on the stage ROB can do some impressive projectile stuff, but on the stages you are thinking of (like BF, FD, SV, etc.), ROB has no real option other than glide toss or painstakingly slow walking and a mind to react.

ROB's approach on Falco is merely the limiting of Falco's lasers. If he can get within range to where Falco needs to over-b (free fully charged laser/gyro) or go off stage, ROB can often force the Falco into an action that is not profitable in the long term for Falco. ROB can punish Falco's over-b fairly easily for massive damage (20%?!) on reaction and any mistake on Falco's part can lead to a heavy edgeguarding string.

As for avoiding kill moves, yeah. ROB's most trouble with Falco will come from a double bair if ROB is coming in from above. If memory serves me correctly, Falco's u-smash's hitbox stays out long enough to where it's easy to time through a ROB spot dodge but I'm not entirely sure...

most of the stuff you're saying about the MU is spot on and Falco does have a lot of options and can most certainly win this MU. However, jab is practically useless unless the ROB messes up as ROB should be staying at his f-tilt length... which outranges both your jab and f-tilt.

The trick for Falco, from what I've seen, is to get ROB in the air and punish him on landing as often as possible. If Falco focuses on dealing damage when edgeguarding (lasers, bair, nair, etc.) rather than getting KOs, it will force ROB to take more risks on teh ground that he normally would not take. ROB and Falco can both punish ANY aerial on reaction, making this a game of grabs and long range tilts.
 

#HBC | ZoZo

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ROBs aerial game is unsafe, thus falco wins.
Any aerial falco PSs is a free usmash

I disagree about the gyro stuff, besides a good falco wont let you charge that **** (grounded lasers) and even then you have to fire it, then APPROACH all the way to falco to get it back, we can even reflect it to make it so much more of a pain to pick up for you.

IAP wrecks rob btw lol i dunno what youre talking about but you cant punish it on reaction especially with robs speed. if you misguess you get a free laser on yo head. even then falco can just mixup and use his ftilt and jab to pwn rob

60/40 falco at least
 

MetalMusicMan

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The trick for Falco, from what I've seen, is to get ROB in the air and punish him on landing as often as possible. If Falco focuses on dealing damage when edgeguarding (lasers, bair, nair, etc.) rather than getting KOs, it will force ROB to take more risks on teh ground that he normally would not take. ROB and Falco can both punish ANY aerial on reaction, making this a game of grabs and long range tilts.
This is pretty much my strategy exactly, lol.

I also don't think ROB is especially easy to get kill moves on for Falco... I'm not sure why that keeps being insinuated...

I think both characters can outcamp each other depending on who has the lead and is forced to approach at any given moment. ROB, however, is better on the ledge, which means it's usually easier for him to maintain his lead. If he approaches too much, Falco can combo the crap out of him, yeah. However, ROB is only a spot-dodge-down-smash away from doing the same :p

ROB doesn't have THAT hard of a time approaching Falco when he needs to either. He can laser or gyro glide to grab and get Falco off-stage and then he doesn't have to worry about approaching because he ***** off stage. He doesn't need to approach often because his camp game is solid so he only really has to when the moment is right and he can make use of it.




Again I'm not arguing that ROB ***** Falco, I think it's somewhere between 45-55 and 55-45 depending, but it seems like a lot of people here think that ROB is almost helpless against Falco and I just do not see that at all.


IAP wrecks rob btw lol i dunno what youre talking about but you cant punish it on reaction especially with robs speed. if you misguess you get a free laser on yo head. even then falco can just mixup and use his ftilt and jab to pwn rob
All he has to do to punish is laser...


60/40 falco at least
/boggle
 

Jon?

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I don't think the ROB matchup is 60/40 falco at least. I'm thinking 55-45 falco at most.
 

Overswarm

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I just realized Xonar is from Holland, and the world makes more sense now.


I wish I could have played SK92 or DEHF when I was in my prime with ROB, there were a lot of things I really wanted to test out.
 

DEHF

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OS Falco doesn't have to use d tilt to put Rob in the position you were talking about. He can also use dair or dash attack, dair being the one that would put them in the worse position.

The Gyro does help against Falco's camping, but not greatly. If Rob is holding a gyro Falco can still camp safely if he just does shl instead of shdl from a distance. Rob would also be at a disadvantage if Falco were to manage to get in close to Rob while he was holding the gyro.

The Reverse up b edge guard can be avoided if the Falco cancels his up b correctly. Being able to cancel the side b helps out Falco by great amount in this match up. It probably saves him from being bair about half the time in this match up
 
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