Ness should be banned

[cheesdog]

OP:

GO READ ABOUT HOW THE TIER LIST WORKS.

That said, ness is a force to be reconned with if he is in the hands of someone great. I have faced it first hand. (he still eats my pikmin!)

 

[bow master1]

how woulda thought ness was capable of that.glad i dont main ness i just use him.WAY TO GO FOO WOOO!!!

 

[SuSa]

So basically in this thread:

People are johning about M2K's loss OR giving FOW props for beating the best MK player around with Ness.

SuSa attempts to troll FOW because chances are FOW would 3stock him with random. How is that guy mod srsly?

FOW posted something funny.

Did I miss anything important?

I attempt to troll FOW? Kid makes a (most likely typo) and I call it out and have a lulzfest at it. I'm human, let me enjoy my happiness of funny mistakes.

Also you don't know my player skill. I'll be heading to a tourney (90% chance) on the 21st. I'll get back to you on how I place.

If he had meant that Ness AND Falco were bad match ups for Ness he would have wrote:

"Ness and Falco ARE bad matchupS for Ness"

He obviously meant that Ness versus Falco is bad for Ness.

I know Ness vs Falco is a bad matchup for Ness. But isn't Meta Knight also a bad matchup? How about Marth? FOW beat a lot of bad matchups for Ness. So simply pointing out just Falco is sort of stupid. Sk92 is also a really good Falco, and most likely has played FOW before considering what tourneys FOW goes to. So he most likely knows the matchup.

FOW's good, I'm not doubting that. He did well and got far. I still stand by my statements of why he beat Tyrant. I'm not saying he's any worse of a player. I'm certain he plays a ****ed good Ness, but if Tyrant knew the matchup better - would FOW still have won?

 

[NintenJoe]

FOW's good, I'm not doubting that. He did well and got far. I still stand by my statements of why he beat Tyrant. I'm not saying he's any worse of a player. I'm certain he plays a ****ed good Ness, but if Tyrant knew the matchup better - would FOW still have won?

The only way to tell is through another tournament match between FOW and M2K/Tyrant. I know it has been said several times before, I would just like to clearly reiterate it because the point is clearly not coming across... I used SuSa's quote because he's been preaching it and no one is listening/they don't read the entire post...

 

[Xebenkeck]

From the videos i have seen of FOW, what he does is pretty basic for ness. So not knowing the match-up isn't really a good arguement, because i'm sure they've(tyrant, m2k) played other ness players before, ness is a pretty generic char, use lots of aerials, retreating fairs to defend yourself, pk fire to also help defend, pkt mindgames, throws set up aerials, Bthrow for the ko.. It's not like FOW is using anything ground breaking, he's just a very good player at spacing, timing, punishing, etc. and he so happens to use ness.

 

[Gates]

Gates, there aren't any videos. There may never be any, either.

 

[Uffe]

SuSa, just drop it.

 

[kennypu]

FOW's good, I'm not doubting that. He did well and got far. I still stand by my statements of why he beat Tyrant. I'm not saying he's any worse of a player. I'm certain he plays a ****ed good Ness, but if Tyrant knew the matchup better - would FOW still have won?

Hey SuSa,
not to be mean or anything but I do agree with what you say. BUT, wouldn't you agree that experience is also a factor for a good player?
If we come from your point of view, Tyrant didn't know his match up, and didn't know how to fight a ness. Wouldn't you agree that this means that Tyrant lacked the experience?
Just from that being said, it makes FOW better already. I'm not saying that Tyrant is a bad player, he is probobly hella good. But he lacked the experience, thus he lost. So match up or not, since FOW still won, that fact alone makes FOW the better player.

Tyrant probobly got a little better at least, with a good match against ness.

 

[SuSa]

Hey SuSa,
not to be mean or anything but I do agree with what you say. BUT, wouldn't you agree that experience is also a factor for a good player?
If we come from your point of view, Tyrant didn't know his match up, and didn't know how to fight a ness. Wouldn't you agree that this means that Tyrant lacked the experience?
Just from that being said, it makes FOW better already. I'm not saying that Tyrant is a bad player, he is probobly hella good. But he lacked the experience, thus he lost. So match up or not, since FOW still won, that fact alone makes FOW the better player.

Tyrant probobly got a little better at least, with a good match against ness.

But does FOW have better overall experience then Tyrant? Doubtfully (although possibly). FOW probably faces a ton of Meta Knights and "obvious" Ness counters. (Marth/Falco) simply because if most people don't know a matchup for some reason they switch to characters they think counter said matchup. Then take into the account that there are a LOT of Meta Knights and such, and a Ness has a ton of matchup experience.

FOW is the only Ness I've even heard of taking better then top 8... although I'm not much into the "ness scene" so I wouldn't know of any other Ness players.

Just read my previous arguments, I'm sick of regurgitating the same crap over and over.

Also you do not judge the better player off of one set....that's just stupid. M2K lost his first set to Ally - that doesn't make Ally better. (And the next set M2K won....)

 

[kennypu]

But does FOW have better overall experience then Tyrant? Doubtfully (although possibly). FOW probably faces a ton of Meta Knights and "obvious" Ness counters. (Marth/Falco) simply because if most people don't know a matchup for some reason they switch to characters they think counter said matchup. Then take into the account that there are a LOT of Meta Knights and such, and a Ness has a ton of matchup experience.

FOW is the only Ness I've even heard of taking better then top 8... although I'm not much into the "ness scene" so I wouldn't know of any other Ness players.

Just read my previous arguments, I'm sick of regurgitating the same crap over and over.

Also you do not judge the better player off of one set....that's just stupid. M2K lost his first set to Ally - that doesn't make Ally better. (And the next set M2K won....)

I got top 8 in my last tourney -.- (go look at SBHM XI if interested).
Also you're right i'm sorry for saying that FOW is better, that is probobly not true. But in a competative situation, nothing other than win or lose matters, and in that sense, FOW was better than Tyrant, at least at that moment.
I'm amazed this thread isn't closed yet though. lol.

 

[FOW]

ally is completely the goto to guy for banning, if anybody should make the last call on whether a character should be banned, its him

DSF was the one that put FOW in losers.


also



this post is the embodiment of this thread.

hey actually i ***** DSF, M2K sent me to losers then SK92 sent me out, DSF cant beat me >.>

 

[FOW]

Props to FOW for beating Tyrant and taking a match off of M2K.
The friendly was a good match except for that extremely random SD by m2k. M2K also SD in doubles. Never seen m2k SD so much =/
Does anybody know who sent FOW to losers?

M2K sent me to losers

 

[SuSa]

I got top 8 in my last tourney -.- (go look at SBHM XI if interested).
Also you're right i'm sorry for saying that FOW is better, that is probobly not true. But in a competative situation, nothing other than win or lose matters, and in that sense, FOW was better than Tyrant, at least at that moment.
I'm amazed this thread isn't closed yet though. lol.

Not interested, I'll take your word.

In a sense, you are correct. Right now it is 1:0 Fow:Tyrant so in every technically he is the better player. But I still don't really judge like that, considering I feel you need a large amount of data to judge anything accurately.

hey actually i ***** DSF, M2K sent me to losers then SK92 sent me out, DSF cant beat me >.>

I know who beat you and for the most part the bigger names you beat. You're a good player man, but read my entire argument about this thread.

 

[Eagleye893]

I'm amazed this thread isn't closed yet though. lol.

This victory steak has a lot of juice in it; why not squeeze out as much as you can? Don't wanna be eating a soggy steak now do ya?!?
Yeah, this thread has been going on for quite some time... I don't think we missed anything... Unless someone else randomly decides to show up with a link to the matches.

 

[kennypu]

This victory steak has a lot of juice in it; why not squeeze out as much as you can? Don't wanna be eating a soggy steak now do ya?!?
Yeah, this thread has been going on for quite some time... I don't think we missed anything... Unless someone else randomly decides to show up with a link to the matches.

well then for something new but relevant:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ea3fy64M3k

watching from that video, honestly i don't think he's good. but of course I don't know how he played at SIN so I can't say anything x3

 

[FOW]

He doesn't bstick, saw him retreat fairs.

u speak the truth. i dont bstick and i use default controls

 

[FOW]

well then for something new but relevant:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ea3fy64M3k

watching from that video, honestly i don't think he's good. but of course I don't know how he played at SIN so I can't say anything x3

1. thats wifi
2. that was befor i lost wifi and didnt play to much offline but i was still good
3. after i lost wifi i played tons offline and got better

i recently got it back but i dont play it for brawl

 

[kennypu]

1. thats wifi
2. that was befor i lost wifi and didnt play to much offline but i was still good
3. after i lost wifi i played tons offline and got better

i recently got it back but i dont play it for brawl

thats nice. btw, no double posting.

 

[FOW]

thats nice. btw, no double posting.

i know i just have to answer a lot of questions >_>

 

[The_Blue_Bomber]

i know i just have to answer a lot of questions >_>

"Edit" is your friend.

susa is dumb for even taking this thread seriously....


how does the person johning for the other guy whose lost taking this seriously after i said what are ness mains doing with their lives that they cant do as well as this random 13 year old from vegas. and NONE of them got upset...

thats sad, that the people that Im trying to upset arent getting upset, when some random that doesnt isnt even part of this starts johning for people.

wow, this thread is even lulzier than I intended it to be

quit life

And this right here is where the thread should have ended. The topic creator clearly states this thread was meant for trolling purposes yet it is left open.

5. Respect Others, Do Not Flame/Troll

Do your job, Moderators.

 

[Chuee]

Dude FOW isn't just some random ness player that came out of nowhere and started beating people. Oh, and stop age hating.

 

[Man of Popsicle]

I think most of the people on the ness boards are under 18.

 

[TRAMD]

You know thats a real slap in the face to anyone that age. Thats like saying "o that post was stupid, but i guess he's IS only a 13 year old."

Also age has nothing to do with skill, i'd say once your about 11 and beyond you have the potential to be as good as anyone else. In melee i was 14 when i first played poeple older than me.(it was at school vs gd 12s etc.) i played a bunch of people older than me and destroyed them. My little cousin is 12 and he is pretty **** good right now at brawl, good to the point where he gives me a run evverytime i play him. Age has nothing to do with how good you are.

And no i doubt your the oldest person here. But props to ya for staying true to gaming:bigthumbu

There is certainly marked variability in how someone will act when they are X age but I have been 13, remember, and have not completely forgotten what it was like. A 13 year-old is more likely to act in a foolish manner than an adult. Again, there are very mature 13 year-olds and immature 29 year-olds but the general trend is that foolish behavior reduces when you are an adult as compared to an adolescent.

I would say my own video game prowess peaked around my early 20's but I was certainly quite good at 12-13.

Staying true to gaming is much more difficult with having a wife, 3 kids and a career as a physician but I do what I can.

EDIT: SSBB is the only video game I play.

 

[Neon Ness]

I think most of the people on the ness boards are under 18.

Lies.

Well... I guess that makes me an old man.

Even if the thread was "made for trolling purposes" a lot of facts were cleared up, which is good. Now all we lack is videos for the archives.

 

[CaliburChamp]

The new tier list is wrong...
Ness is mid tier, not low tier
So is Lucas. But Ness should be one spot above Lucas. They are near each other on the tier list cause they basically have the same attack range, and their strengths and weaknesses average out to be middle tier material.

/true facts

 

[da K.I.D.]

thats nice. btw, no double posting.

This is FOW, he does whatever the hell he wants, like I said before, this kid stay breakin rules

 

[CaliburChamp]

Susa, your logic is truly one of a kind, not in a good way. SSBB has too many variables to consider a definitive answer like match ups, stages, the players focus, and experience. Tyrant is a good player, but he is not good at fighting against top Ness players. FOW isn't the only good Ness player either, there's been more than a handful of Ness players which have been getting in the top 8. You can't make excuses for him losing to FOW, only Tyrant can. It's those things that make your logical reasoning look unreasonable, and that's why there's alot of people disagreeing with you.

Good job FOW, don't let party poopers like Susa get you down.

Tyrant and DSF, don't underestimate the lower tiers. Mr. Top Tier mainers.

 

[Eagleye893]

I think most of the people on the ness boards are under 18.

This is basically right.

The new tier list is wrong...
Ness is mid tier, not low tier
So is Lucas. But Ness should be one spot above Lucas. They are near each other on the tier list cause they basically have the same attack range, and their strengths and weaknesses average out to be middle tier material.

/true facts

everyone hates on their grab releases.... i don't see the problem about grab release combos anyways! just don't get grabbed, thats easy enough. gimpability shouldn't be an issue with good ness players... all possible claims to make him low tier can be completely destroyed with simple explanation.

I think lucas should still be low though because of his predictable u/d-smash, and other attacks of his that are much slower than ness'. Ness has KO power all around, but lucas has only a little bit of KO power that is mostly predictable (stick = exception)

 

[SuSa]

Susa, your logic is truly one of a kind, not in a good way. SSBB has too many variables to consider a definitive answer like match ups, stages, the players focus, and experience. Tyrant is a good player, but he is not good at fighting against top Ness players. FOW isn't the only good Ness player either, there's been more than a handful of Ness players which have been getting in the top 8. You can't make excuses for him losing to FOW, only Tyrant can. It's those things that make your logical reasoning look unreasonable, and that's why there's alot of people disagreeing with you.

Good job FOW, don't let party poopers like Susa get you down.

Tyrant and DSF, don't underestimate the lower tiers. Mr. Top Tier mainers.

Except for the fact multiple (I think 3-4 now, maybe 5?) people have basically came in and backed up my "bad logic". Also - SSBM had matchups. Guess what, it had multiple stages, player focus, experience... I take it you don't know how most matchups are figured out? "Players of an equal skill level at the highest level of play". A lot of it is theory craft, and you can generally argue 5% lower or 5% higher for most matchups. That doesn't make them "not exist".

People that backed me up:
BarDulL
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=7628396&postcount=133
BarDulL again
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=7628537&postcount=141

Lain agrees with BarDulL:
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=7629565&postcount=159

Lains actual feeling on the matter: (mentions matchup experience)
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=7630607&postcount=163

Nintenjoe seems to agree:
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=7630800&postcount=164

Hey look its M2K: (not really matchup ignorance but being mad/off)
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=7634667&postcount=185





My logic actually made sense - it just wasn't backed up for some time.

/closing statement

 

[Cacti]

This is basically right.



everyone hates on their grab releases.... i don't see the problem about grab release combos anyways! just don't get grabbed, thats easy enough. gimpability shouldn't be an issue with good ness players... all possible claims to make him low tier can be completely destroyed with simple explanation.

I think lucas should still be low though because of his predictable u/d-smash, and other attacks of his that are much slower than ness'. Ness has KO power all around, but lucas has only a little bit of KO power that is mostly predictable (stick = exception)

Number of KO moves does not equate into KO'ing ability. The stick is a quick and powerful KO move. It's all Lucas really needs, and his u/dsmash are used for punishing, so it doesn't matter if they are predictable.

 

[Eagleye893]

Number of KO moves does not equate into KO'ing ability. The stick is a quick and powerful KO move. It's all Lucas really needs, and his u/dsmash are used for punishing, so it doesn't matter if they are predictable.

Ness has a lot of KO'ing ability as well. Basically every one of his moves can KO at lower percents, and if not, then they lead into ko's. sure the stick is fast and can kill, but most combos that are used to lead into the stick allow for a quick perfect shielding of the stick... I won't go anywhere with this argument so i'll just say YES, it is a good killing move and lucas has other killing options, but I like ness' ability to KO opponents better.

 

[Raimundo]

This means ban ness just because he beat a MK? Tyrant at that? LOL that just means that Tyrant just thought it would be an easy match because of God tier vs Low Tier. He probably just didn't have that matchup experience at the time.

we all make bad assumptions.

 

[NintenJoe]

Except for the fact multiple (I think 3-4 now, maybe 5?) people have basically came in and backed up my "bad logic". Also - SSBM had matchups. Guess what, it had multiple stages, player focus, experience... I take it you don't know how most matchups are figured out? "Players of an equal skill level at the highest level of play". A lot of it is theory craft, and you can generally argue 5% lower or 5% higher for most matchups. That doesn't make them "not exist".

My logic actually made sense - it just wasn't backed up for some time.

/closing statement

There are more variables in Brawl than there were in Melee because of the game mechanics. The airdodge system in Melee sucked, which caused easy juggling and almost limitless air combos. Nintendo attempted to "fix" this problem by making the game slightly slower paced and allowing people to airdodge multiple times to fix the "aerial combo flaw". Worse characters can do better in SSBB then they could in SSBM because they have more options overall. Ness, a character who needs to rely on aerials, can't be as easily punished in the air as he could have been in melee. This is the primary reason why Brawl is more "balanced". Again, the only way to find out if this was caused by match-up ignorance is another tournament where FOW plays Tyrant and M2K.

Edit: I agree with your logic, I'm just adding that lower tiers have a better chance of winning than they did in melee in response to CaliburChamp's comments.

 

[Cacti]

I can't believe some people are taking the ban joke seriously.

 

[Tenki]

There are more variables in Brawl than there were in Melee because of the game mechanics.

quoted for tr- *trips*

I saw some of FOW's matches (?), lol. He got an edgehog once I think. But then again, I was half away most of the time I watched it so I don't really know who was playing most of the time lol.

 

[SuSa]

There are more variables in Brawl than there were in Melee because of the game mechanics. The airdodge system in Melee sucked, which caused easy juggling and almost limitless air combos. Nintendo attempted to "fix" this problem by making the game slightly slower paced and allowing people to airdodge multiple times to fix the "aerial combo flaw". Worse characters can do better in SSBB then they could in SSBM because they have more options overall. Ness, a character who needs to rely on aerials, can't be as easily punished in the air as he could have been in melee. This is the primary reason why Brawl is more "balanced". Again, the only way to find out if this was caused by match-up ignorance is another tournament where FOW plays Tyrant and M2K.

Edit: I agree with your logic, I'm just adding that lower tiers have a better chance of winning than they did in melee in response to CaliburChamp's comments.

My debate wasn't Brawl/Melee. It was the fact that in almost every fighting game (in fact, I think in every fighting game... I don't have much experience outside of SSB however) there are matchup ratios. So I used Melee as an example.

The matchups may change game to game obviously due to mechanics and such. (Ness may have had worse matchups in Melee then now due to how Melee worked) But his matchups still existed.

 

[xxCANDYxx]

is there vids of fow???????????????????

 

[Uffe]

Why don't people ever check Google or YouTube? There aren't any videos.

 

[The_Blue_Bomber]

"Edit" is your friend.



And this right here is where the thread should have ended. The topic creator clearly states this thread was meant for trolling purposes yet it is left open.



Do your job, Moderators.

Why does everyone always ignore me? =/

 

[Uffe]

Why does everyone always ignore me? =/

I read your post. I'm not a mod and I already knew the OP made this as a joke which soon turned into a debate which left a few here annoyed.