Ness Question and Answer Thread, Ask Ness questions Here!

[baconator25]

I'm perfectly fine with whatever we start with, but my vote would go towards either Dedede or Lucario since those are two of the match-ups I play nearly every single day. Or maybe Ike since I play against Ike a lot too, but that match up's not quite as interesting.

 

[Neon Ness]

WE WILL NEVER TOUCH THE MARTH MU! IT IS DEATH TO US NO MATTER WHO ARGUES AGAINST THAT!

Lol, but it can be useful to discuss why it's death for Ness. These threads should be a resource for future players reading about the matchup, and why there's more to the difficulty than just the grab release, which some people still might assume.

If you guys want to do it by vote I'd suggest keeping it organized somehow, and deciding a cutoff date or something for people to vote. Otherwise it might be a while before coming to a decision.

Or you could start from the bottom of the list and just go up from there. Might be faster.

 

[Lukingordex]

I only ask because I feel the following on the MU chart should look more like this:

(-1)
(+1 to +2) (57:43)
(-2 to -3) (65:35)
(-+0)
(+1)
(-2)

And then I need help with other MUs I mentioned, as I have no idea what exactly I should do in them. Especially , , and most of all... &

For me, Vs is +1 for Ness.

-2 0 -1 -2

 

[P.I.E.]

Lol, but it can be useful to discuss why it's death for Ness

It's starting to become a bit easier to deal with it, because i learned how to DI the grab to grab break farther, as suggested in the PK cross guide. o.o and playing him a few times, I feel like it should be -2... but maybe only because i have a lot of MU exp with marths now >.<

My question: what's the best way to forget your match is being watched by others while at a tourney? i noticed I do a lot better if I don't realize im being watched for some reason o.o

 

[Jamwa]

It's starting to become a bit easier to deal with it, because i learned how to DI the grab to grab break farther, as suggested in the PK cross guide. o.o and playing him a few times, I feel like it should be -2... but maybe only because i have a lot of MU exp with marths now >.<

My question: what's the best way to forget your match is being watched by others while at a tourney? i noticed I do a lot better if I don't realize im being watched for some reason o.o

its always going to be -3, because he still has an infinite to a guaranteed smash, even though its unlikely he grabs ness coz ness is so good at avoiding grabs.

i deal with nervousness by talking with the person im playing against or just slowing things down while you read your opponent. you can listen to music if u want but i find that some sound animations are necessary to hear to react

 

[Flame Hyenard]

Like the sound of Snake saying "NOW" when he uses his C4, for example ?

 

[Jamwa]

yes or pikachus side-b, or any of ness'/lucas' b-moves lol theres many many things D:

 

[Tesh]

When Ness fires his PK thunder into himself and falls down can he be jab locked from that state?

 

[Neon Ness]

You mean if Ness were to hit himself straight downward into the ground right?

I don't have the means to try it at the moment, but it sounds like it would work, since he puts himself into a 'knocked down' state.

 

[Eagleye893]

he can be, it's just very unlikely since the range of the PKT2 is large when the opponent is close enough to jab and even if they wait outside range you should be able to do a getup before they can jab you, unless it's kirby with his dtilt.

 

[Sully]

Can Ness have an infinite jab lock against a wall? And what's the best combo to lead into a PKT2?

 

[Flame Hyenard]

Can Ness have an infinite jab lock against a wall? And what's the best combo to lead into a PKT2?

The tail of PKT1 can be used to stun the opponent long enough to lead into PKT2. Other than that, I don't think there are many options. Except maybe a previous shieldbreak, in which case PK Flash might be better.

 

[Sully]

And I can't really guarantee that I hit with the tail, so is there a way to make sure that you hit with the tail? Does the target have to be really close or up in the air for it to work?

 

[Flame Hyenard]

It's quite hard to be honest, as I never tried to stun the opponent with the tail of PKT1 to lead into PKT2.

Your best bet would be to bait the opponent to get rammed into PKT2. Even then, Back Throw at +120% is more reliable for a kill.

 

[Jamwa]

usually when theyre in the air you bait an airdodge with PKT1, but then loop it around and they will fall into your taill and get stunned, which is when you hit them with PKT2
Ness has a jab lock, but a wall isnt required. usually you fast fall a dair and if you spike them in the air they will be able to get jab locked if they dont tech the ground.

 

[Tesh]

I don't play Ness, but knowing alot of patterns and angles really helps trick people into getting hit by PKT2. Especially if you can abuse the fact that the camera doesn't follow projectiles. If you are facing your opponent and your PKT is flying around behind you, its pretty hard to guess whats going on with it.

 

[Flame Hyenard]

I don't play Ness, but knowing alot of patterns and angles really helps trick people into getting hit by PKT2. Especially if you can abuse the fact that the camera doesn't follow projectiles. If you are facing your opponent and your PKT is flying around behind you, its pretty hard to guess whats going on with it.

^

When I get the chance, I use PKT1 on the ground, letting it go a bit behind me and making it loop 2 times instead of 1. When my opponent expects the first loop to hit me, they shield, but then they don't see me going PKT2. Then they dash and stops when they realise it was a mindgame. Then it hit them. Hard.

 

[P.I.E.]

how many of you actually use pkjump and uncharged pkflash as a part of your playstyle?

 

[Flame Hyenard]

I don't use PK Jump because I constantly fail to do it (even though I managed to do that a few times). As for uncharged PK Flashes, I tend to charge it at max power, but midcharged is often enough and people might expect for the Ness player to fully charge it.

 

[yoshi8984]

I can do PK Jumps, but my opponent usually sees in coming .__.

I don't use uncharged PK Flashes XD

EDIT: Does Stale Move Negation affect how much Ness can heal from a projectile with his PSIM?

 

[Deadjayman]

And what's the best combo to lead into a PKT2?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9ZgV-7KvXQ
(Replace mindless CPU falling with predicting an aerial PKT tail can outrange or an airdodge)

how many of you actually use pkjump and uncharged pkflash as a part of your playstyle?

PKJ is too risky and low reward. You cancel a forward dj (already a big mistake with Ness, Ness' dj is absolutely sacred for Ness) with PKF to gain huge foward momentum boost so you land right next to your opponent while the PKF is on them. It sounds good on paper but it has many issues. One of the issues is that the PKF can simply be shielded and since Ness has large endlag frames on his PKF aerial landing (PKJ can't be PKF aerial lag canceled unfortunately) the opponent will be free to counter with almost ANYTHING as Ness is helplessly stuck in his endlag frames. Even if the PKF hits an opponent the PKF pillar is ridiculously easy to DI out of so that makes this risky maneuver pointless (try this on a competent Marth and you'll get countered, jabbed, or faired everytime) since your opponent will most likely DI out by the time your aerial PKF endlag is gone and may still have enough time to counterattack you (depends on the character).

Does Stale Move Negation affect how much Ness can heal from a projectile with his PSIM?

Yes it does, Ness' PSIM heals 150% from the intended damage he would've taken.

 

[yoshi8984]

Are there characters Ness HAS to press the jump button against in order to try to jump break? (Assuming the opponent pummels at the wrong rhythm or something)

 

[Flame Hyenard]

I think there are, but I can name you one character you shouldn't try to jump break from : Captain Falcon. From what I've heard, Falcon has a nearly guaranteed sweetspot Knee hit on Ness if he jump breaks. I said "nearly" because this is something among the "frame-perfect" lines, I think.

No worries though : that's the only thing I know Falcon can do to Ness with a grab-release.

 

[yoshi8984]

But I don't think Ness could force a grab release though. Isn't he shorter than Captain Falcon? =P

 

[Flame Hyenard]

He is. But really, I think this is the only thing you have to worry about. I'll test the Falcon Dive (UpB) to see if that works too.

EDIT : Falcon Dive doesn't work on Ness once air-released.

 

[Deadjayman]

I believe Ness will always be air released from Captain Falcon because I think he holds Ness above the ground.

If a character isn't touching the ground while being grabbed then they will always air release. This is why Yoshi always air releases his opponents because they are in his mouth not touching the ground.

Ness preferrably wants to air release most of the time because most character's grab release options come from a ground release, to force an air release jump inputs are needed.

However, if you are released in the middle of a grab pummel it will force a ground release even if jump inputs are performed and/or you aren't touching the ground. This makes characters with fast pummel rhythms like Marth and Wolf near impossible to air release from (and you will eat a smash/tilt).



TL;DR version:
Don't get grabbed.

 

[P.I.E.]

PKJ is too risky and low reward. You cancel a forward dj (already a big mistake with Ness, Ness' dj is absolutely sacred for Ness) with PKF to gain huge foward momentum boost so you land right next to your opponent while the PKF is on them. It sounds good on paper but it has many issues. One of the issues is that the PKF can simply be shielded and since Ness has large endlag frames on his PKF aerial landing (PKJ can't be PKF aerial lag canceled unfortunately) the opponent will be free to counter with almost ANYTHING as Ness is helplessly stuck in his endlag frames. Even if the PKF hits an opponent the PKF pillar is ridiculously easy to DI out of so that makes this risky maneuver pointless (try this on a competent Marth and you'll get countered, jabbed, or faired everytime) since your opponent will most likely DI out by the time your aerial PKF endlag is gone and may still have enough time to counterattack you (depends on the character).

I believe the risk/ reward factor depends entirely on who uses it against what character.! You can do this during almost any part of your jump, and if done CORRECTLY you will always have options to react befor landing. You can drop under a platform and immediately do it, you can walk off of any platform and immediately do it. Of course I agree that it still is an aerial pkfire, and if you don't perfect the technique, you WILL get punished. but check this scenario out for example. I was playing this snake, and I took off his first stock. Upon respawn, I evaded him until his invincibility frames were up, and (because I hadn't done this before) I caught him off guard by jumping from the ledge and using pkfire as my momentum moved me away. He was hit with the firstpillar of fire, and since it his him above the ground he was undable to shield out of it. He attempted to DI away from me and out of the fire, which was a normal reaction for someone caught in the move. However, I used pkjump to not only get back on the stage, but hit him with a second pillar and hit him with uair. the two pillars held him in place so I could then proceed to using utilt and then another uair.

Now I'm not sure what theory crafting is, but if what I just did was it, then this theory was tested and match-viable. it racked up around 50% and I'm sure we can all be creative on how we set up pkjump. I believe it's superior to an aerial pkfire because you can put yourself at different areas of the stage depending on when you do it.


One thing I can agree on 100% is that it's REALLY RISKY!! but if you know what you're doing and correctly use it in a situation when your opponent won't expect it, you can still come out with whatever reward you can successfully execute.

It's still pkfire, so of course the average competent opponent can still use the tactics they would usually use to get out of the fire (which is why I suggest hitting them with it so they're above the ground in it, less options for them and you can get a nice read if you're clever about it).

being safe, you can nair, fair, uair, bair, pkthunder, pkmagnet, and airdodge before hitting the ground if you use it correctly (sometimes depending on the stage, but they're all legit in some form or fashion). So almost every defensive tool is at your disposal, especially when you're close enough to the ground to follow up with the defensive aggro maneuver of your choice.

This is obviously not NEEDED at all whatsoever, but as a person who uses it, I recommend using it when the occassion strikes, because the risk/reward factor (deending on how much you've used it, like any more) will depend on when you use it.

 

[Screk]

Dammit Pie reading your message sometimes hurts my eyes XD

 

[P.I.E.]

LOL and btw, that double fire thing I described: If you do it right, you can have two pillrs on both sides of them so that they can only DI up, if they DI at all, so you can pull some nasty **** in the duration of the fires (collectively about 5-6 seconds right?) not to mention you can reverse it o3o them ness guides helped me a lot xD I also just realized that you can do a pkjump with reverse momentum i did it about a short hop's distance from the ground. (don't know how i did it, but I'll try to figure it out later)

Q U E S T I O N

I just wanna go learn jab lock right now

Any good advice on setups for it?

 

[Jamwa]

Jump+Aerial > DJ+Aerial> FF+Dair> Jab Lock

most common maneuver that doesnt really work (it just look wierd when ness uses an aerial as he DJ's) but if the opponent is tripped out by you xXAerialXx maneuvers and jumps under you you'll get them. Not really a setup, its just fun.

A real Setups is fair close to the ground, and if they DI down, theyll be eligible for a Jab Lock.

if they DI badly from an ftilt you could maybe jab lock them.

PsiF > Dair > Jab Lock doesnt always work but it can. Nice damage anyway.

if they are on the edge of a platform, aerial them (uair is the weapon of choice in this situation most of the time) and they'll fall off from shield push. some characters cannot cancel this falling animation, and will be eligible for a jab lock. Snake is one of these characters i believe

Screk I have to highlight P.I.E.'s text to read it lol

 

[yoshi8984]

Well if an opponent is shield happy and they're on a platform above you, you could do a Nair and they'll (usually) tumble to the ground. Then you can Jab Lock :D

PKF>Dair could also work, though you have to time and position the Dair. (Yeah I'm getting predictable with this against you XP)

You could always try a footstool.

If you do manage to Jab Lock someone (only gotten one on CPUs LOL) you can finish it off with an F-Tilt. F-Tilt is quick, has decent range and knocks them away pretty well.
---------------------
Also if for whatever reason you're on Luigi's Mansion, you can U-Tilt/U-Throw them and then you've got an opportunity to Jab Lock. XD

Ok I'm not trying to back-seat mod or anything but why does it take 1 month to answer these things LOL

 

[xoxokev]

Well if an opponent is shield happy and they're on a platform above you, you could do a Nair and they'll (usually) tumble to the ground. Then you can Jab Lock :D

PKF>Dair could also work, though you have to time and position the Dair. (Yeah I'm getting predictable with this against you XP)

You could always try a footstool.

If you do manage to Jab Lock someone (only gotten one on CPUs LOL) you can finish it off with an F-Tilt. F-Tilt is quick, has decent range and knocks them away pretty well.
---------------------
Also if for whatever reason you're on Luigi's Mansion, you can U-Tilt/U-Throw them and then you've got an opportunity to Jab Lock. XD

Ok I'm not trying to back-seat mod or anything but why does it take 1 month to answer these things LOL

i don't usually try to set up jab locks, but when i'm in the right position at the right time i like to finish off my jab locks with dtilts off the ledge

 

[Jamwa]

Yoshi8984 check the posts, they were answered within a day lol

 

[Screk]

I just do what I think is right. MIGHT not be the best option but I never see the option to Jab lock

 

[yoshi8984]

Yoshi8984 check the posts, they were answered within a day lol

Pie answered the thing about PK Jump like 1 month later, DeadJayman answered my question about PSIM almost 1 month later and then DeadJayman answered my question on air releases like a month later.

 

[xoxokev]

ask another question!

 

[Screk]

Alright I'll try to explain something that's bugging me. For some reason when I'm in the air with ness I feel like i'm grounded even if i'm in the air. I guess long story short I'm not as fluid in the air as I like to be any suggestions ?

Edit : I probably didn't explain this that well

 

[Neon Ness]

Lol, no I think I get what you mean. It sounds like you have trouble choosing the right moves in certain situations when you're airborne, to which I'd just say keep practicing. Think carefully about what each aerial does and what you need to do to your opponent in any given moment, instead of randomly throwing out moves or relying on the same one over and over.

Some people also have to keep their hands warm or keep them from getting sweaty in order to play better. The more you use Ness, the more you'll commit his movements to muscle memory so hopefully you'll get over that sluggish feeling in time. Hope that helps.

 

[Jamwa]

Some people also have to keep their hands warm or keep them from getting sweaty in order to play better. The more you use Ness, the more you'll commit his movements to muscle memory so hopefully you'll get over that sluggish feeling in time. Hope that helps.

ah this is so true, when my hands are cold i cant play at all.
also recently my hands dont sweat at all when i play
butter

 

[xoxokev]

Alright I'll try to explain something that's bugging me. For some reason when I'm in the air with ness I feel like i'm grounded even if i'm in the air. I guess long story short I'm not as fluid in the air as I like to be any suggestions ?

Edit : I probably didn't explain this that well

That's interesting bc Ness' aerial mobility seems to be among the best in the game (in my opinion). I don't know how you play, but if you're not comfortable with your aerial movements, you should work on your short hops and fast falling. Playing as Ness, it's almost a must to be proficient in your aerial movements. Personally, I like my movements to be concise and efficient when I play.