Ness Question and Answer Thread, Ask Ness questions Here!

[PSI.kick]

"oh kay"
...*wiff*

 

[P.I.E.]

I'm proud knowing a ness boards thread of any kind lasts this long (like two years approx.?) Well I'm not sure if this was asked before but is it possible to connect a dtilt trip into an fsmash?

 

[P.I.E.]

This has probably been answered in the topic, but is there any good stratagies against character MU's like,

Ness vs MK
Ness vs. Zelda
Ness vs. Wolf
Ness vs. Snake

I seem to only have trouble with these paticular MU's.

Well in my opinion a good strategy would be to

MK - Give him no space, when he tries to keep you offstage just defend with fair you can stop his nado with pk fire or dtilt

Zelda - Space her, most players I've fought will eventually use din's fire, but for gimping, so don't expect it too much.

Wolf - Space, and read him well

Snake - Never under any circumstance give him space. Ignore the nades thrown, unless he's held them for long, just perfect shield. IMO his recovery is more gimpable than ness's in this situation so it's the easiest spike setup known to man xD

 

[Eagleye893]

Dtilt trip to Fsmash has had some debate... the current consensus is that it is just escapable by roll, but it could also be that there is a minimal amount of time to actually successfully execute it.

 

[xoxokev]

it is possible and 100% guaranteed. done and done.

 

[P.I.E.]

I forgot where I heard the combination, but it' wicked hard. But Thanks to both of you, I'll continue to work on it.

 

[Eagleye893]

Don't... It's better to just dtilt trip to Nair or Bair if you're skilled. The risk of fsmash isn't wOrth it... Usmash is okay, but people often DI it. Dsmash is less reliable. Ftilt is okay, but not as combo-rific as Nair. Dair works if you're quick.

 

[PSI.kick]

what if you turn around dsmash? that would be a better option than usmash. You just gotta get skilled with turnaround stuff.

Btw i think its a good idea to walk alot reason being that you can quickly jab, ftilt, utilt, dtilt (lol), any smash, and you can do this easily without waiting for the lag of stopping animation, or even if you pivot smash or jab walking is still alot easier and can sometimes screw opponents up. (learned this from luigi lol) alright, input peops. what do you all think?

 

[Eagleye893]

dsmash is di'able.
usmash is too...

when picking up slack from a trip, you're looking to get the most damage on your opponent in few hits.

fsmash WOULD be the best, but it's JUST too slow to punish from tripping.
usmash would be second, but the hit is DI'able, and is risky from that DI.
dsmash is ditto last.
ftilt upward is okay... slightly better than Nair.
bair would be great, but it might not hit some characters.
Uair is weird.... more probable to Nair.
grab leads to at least 12% f'sho (grab > insta-pummel > fthrow/uthrow). Grab if you can't think of what else.

correction, bair IS great.

 

[PSI.kick]

*cough* tech chasing. we need to discuss this.
see with fsmash, if you notice them rolling from their trip animation you can punish.
reverse dsmash dude, you hit them with the swing behind, it is di-able but most often they dont sdi out of the knockback hit, they just change their direction. This is what i'm saying: Ness trips them, then turns around and dsmashes. yoyo hits behind then swings forward.
x=ness
o=yoyo
w=opponent
<>=direction ness is facing

dtilt>trip
X>_W
<X_W
<XoW
oX_____-----W

see?
you first turn around, then dsmash.

 

[Eagleye893]

DSMASH IS MORE DI-ABLE THAN USMASH!!! THEREFORE LESS VIABLE!!! I'm not saying it is slow, or that turnaround isn't an option (because in many other cases it IS viable), but based on what the opponent sees, all options, apart from fsmash (rolling as input), can be properly DI'd upward, and dsmash's lag time will only put you up for punishment after gaining that 3% hit from the charge swing of dsmash. Uair is too funky of an option to consider for trip punishment (some characters are short enough or won't be hit in their trip animation), so all that leaves is jab (9%?less if SDI'd? big whoop), ftilt (not severe knockback, but okay damage), utilt (less than jab combo....), usmash (SDI the yoyo charge = insta-win), dsmash (similar SDI to the usmash gives win), nair (11% is cool), and bair (my fav, 15% max).

bair is the least risk, but involves fairly good spacing and maneuvering abilities. dtilt > turn around > SH + bair... might work on most characters, if you're good at timing. my idea is just this normally. dtilt trip > FH > (wait for chosen option) > react with landing Bair... this is almost flawless. if you don't see anything come out, then you go for a landing dair AC'd... higher percent if the dair hits, then if you miss you try again with just a normal SH/FH bair, because the person would be standing then.


trust me, dsmash is good for people who don't DI/SDI well... it is absolutely terrible against anyone else, or a person who is playing bowser, link, ganon, or a couple others who have the privilege of not getting hit by the full swing of dsmash without any charging.

general rule of thumb for dtilt tripping, at least in my most sincere opinion:

close range = dtilt > FH FF Bair/Dair... if you don't really need a lot of percent, just go with the safe dtilt > Nair/grab.
farthest range = dtilt > straight ftilt/dashgrab/... if you want the risk, go with FH stuff again.

I feel like dtilt trip > SH bair is the best option, but it depends on what situation you are in. Mid kill percents, you might wanna save the bair. Low percents, go nuts! It'd lead to MUCH more damage. High percents is insta-death........ But I feel like it might not work for some reasons... I don't remember why. Maybe it's just because I haven't actually done it once (dtilt trip > grab is my instinctual reaction), or possibly because I have no idea whether some character can escape it... I dunno. It'd be, hands down, the best option out of dtilt trip due to reliability and kill power, but right now I'll just leave it as is and only provide what is listed below as f'sho options:

dtilt trip > Nair, dtilt trip > ftilt (at close ranges, upward tilted), and dtilt trip > grab/dashgrab are the safest options and get you the most damage for the least effort.
dtilt trip > FH FF Bair, dtilt trip > usmash, and dtilt trip > FH (FF) Dair have fair reliability if you can predict well. Bair can space insanely if you land right, and going down with Dair on most people using trip get-ups will be over-ridden in priority. Usmash really depends on how quick you can get it out. If you are too slow, you won't get in the full hits and will suffer for it. Quick and everything is awesome...
dtilt trip > dsmash, dtilt trip > fsmash, and basically anything else isn't really worth the risk. fsmash is debatable. It's either hit or miss. I don't prefer to miss, but if you play that way (all or nothing), then go nuts!

My affinity to bair just makes me believe that it is a great opton. dtilt trip > SH Bair can work a lot. It seems too risky, but I might test it. I think it's 100% assured, but until proven, take it with a grain of salt.

 

[xoxokev]

this topic is too subjective... might as well keep mixing it up to avoid being predictable

 

[PSI.kick]

^agreed

10agrees

 

[Eagleye893]

I DO MIX IT UP!!! dtilt trip>Nair/grab/flit are all 100% sure combos, but I often throw in random stuff too. Some things work less consistently than others though. If SH bair is another 100% sure followup to dtilt trip, I strongly recommend it. Advice doesn't need to be taken... I'm just listing what options I know work the best and what options I feel are less reliable in general.

A 100% guaranteed followup beats a 50% guaranteed followup anyday... I'm just sayin'.

 

[Rockstar]

Saw this was a Ness thread. Im Kansas's Ness, and was wondering if you guys could check out this tournament video of mine. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Z765iNn94I Enjoy and tell me what you think please.

 

[Yink]

Saw this was a Ness thread. Im Kansas's Ness, and was wondering if you guys could check out this tournament video of mine. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Z765iNn94I Enjoy and tell me what you think please.

You're from KS? Good to know, come to some IA tournaments dude ;D

Okay, as for your vid...your opponent didn't seem to know how to fight against you. Has he played you before? I'm not saying this to damper your results I'm saying it because in many instances I noticed him not challenging specific moves of yours, especially Yo-Yo. And his DI wasn't so hot.

Alright, now for you. Watch your PK Fire usage. For me, I can hardly ever get away with PK Fire on the ground like you do, because it's extremely easy to perfect shield and then just grab Ness because of the cool-down taking so long. Your spacing wasn't bad, so nice job.

I'll open this up to any others haha.

 

[Eagleye893]

^ basically the opponent was terrible.

I saw the first stock and was like: o.O how does anyone let 80% happen that quickly?
A bit too many pkt2 attempts directly at the oppOnent... Could get punished VERY hard against better players.
Needs moar psimag...
Needs moar dtilt...
Needs moar FH aerials...
I dunno... There was too much fail on your opponent's end and the match was too short for proper evaluation... Try posting a match in which you struggle.

 

[PSI.kick]

Dude was that at TAS? as before, not promoting offense, but that guy seemed as bad as me :X

Yink im from kansas too.

 

[Rockstar]

Thanks guys. Advice well appreciated. Yeah Ive been to Nebraska Tourneys, and was considering going to Jokers maybe. Im uploading more matches, against better opponents too. Psikick no thats not from TAS. Its from a small tournament in Paola.

Here's my tourney set against Ninja, a local olimar. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CK-TZVyuLyQ Tell me what you guys think. Greatful for all tips, opinions, criticism, and compliments.

 

[PZ]

You know whats sad? Fox can jab you while he is in PK fire.

In other words im asking who else can?

Fox has a hit on frame 3 jab.

 

[PSI.kick]

Lola that was me xD
Dannnng I sucked back then, although the third game was really good. I'm pretty sure it was a friendly haha although idk since it was a while. That was a pretty good game though.

 

[Eagleye893]

@RSTAR:

You missed an opportunity for shenanigans... you did Fair going down, which left PSIkick offstage slightly. In that situation, DTILT LIKE MAD!!!! there's little the opponent can do (unless they're MK or marth) to stop you from just racking damage and also getting back onstage. If they airdodge, grab ze ledge!
Don't rush up on an Oli... you WILL get punished.
Also, don't go down with a dair all the time. Oli can rack tons of damage with uair, and other characters outspeed your dair easily.
USE PSIMAG ON BRINSTAR!!! you had 2 opportunities to wind him back into the lava for super damage and shenanigans, but you didn't do it. PSImag wind + brinstar lava + opponent falling into it when you have PSImag up = insta awesome.
Don't land with fair.... it has the most landing lag for a majority of it's usage. Uair, Bair (iffy) and a well-landed Dair have much less landing lag than fair and nair. Nair landing lag is also large...
Possibly better DI/SDI on some of Oli's moves. You took a lot from uair, and died early from a bthrow once.

 

[PSI.kick]

oli's blue bthrow kills really easily dude, even with di, you will still die from the middle around 110%ish.

PSImag shenanigans? never knew most (any) of them.

 

[Susi]

Does charging ledgeusmash knock Olimar out of his recovery?

 

[PSI.kick]

no.

It doesnt stop recoveries, only people who ledgedrop a lot.

 

[Patchouli Knowledge]

Hmm, can Ness' PSI sheild ( as I remeber, if not, I mean down + B ) Absorb a falcon punch? Or will it hit him like other psyical attacks? Haven't tried it out yet.

 

[Neon Ness]

Nah, it only works on energy based projectiles, like lasers or fireballs.

There's a list of all the things that can be absorbed by it... uh, somewhere around here.

Check the first post here, Yink has it outlined: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=258356

 

[Rockstar]

Omg... A falcon punch? Hahahahah

 

[P.I.E.]

I'm not sure if I've asked this question before, but I feel very bothered by the fact that I keep losing to this single kirby main
(I haven't recorded ay recent videos but here) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1trKoo51aZo

I try to play a bit lss agressive like most people tell me, but that's not exactly helping all the time. I find that projectiles really work but he can rack up damage fast with solid combos out of his fthrow, which I try to avoid at all times. I space him, but I guess I'm not doing it like I should be. Any other tips?

 

[Pogoshark]

What are some attacks that string together well?

for example i use PK fire, run and grab, then pummel them while they burn in the PK fire, then down throw, jump and side air.

most of the time i can catch them if they jump out of the way of the side air i can usually get a uair or bair on them

So are there any other 'combos' with Ness?

 

[Yink]

I'm not sure if I've asked this question before, but I feel very bothered by the fact that I keep losing to this single kirby main
(I haven't recorded ay recent videos but here) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1trKoo51aZo

I try to play a bit lss agressive like most people tell me, but that's not exactly helping all the time. I find that projectiles really work but he can rack up damage fast with solid combos out of his fthrow, which I try to avoid at all times. I space him, but I guess I'm not doing it like I should be. Any other tips?

PIE if it were me, I'd be in the air at all times, higher than Kirby if you can manage and be very careful with PK Fire placement. Stop Kirbs with Fair especially, and yeah don't be aggressive. I'd back off and camp, maybe approach with aerial PK Fires. After you get a lead make the Kirby come to you. Otherwise watch your spacing.

If you're winning, there's no reason to make the matchup harder for you, force the kirby to approach.

What are some attacks that string together well?

for example i use PK fire, run and grab, then pummel them while they burn in the PK fire, then down throw, jump and side air.

most of the time i can catch them if they jump out of the way of the side air i can usually get a uair or bair on them

So are there any other 'combos' with Ness?

Eh. That PK Fire one's pretty good, UNLESS they SDI out of it then it's totally useless . For me, I like to do dthrow > uair or fair at low percents...it seems to work. If you can get some lagless PK Fires in the air, and then dair you can dair cancel into anything really. I usually do dair > jab or dair > dtilt (trip) > fthrow. Otherwise at high percents it's a little harder to combo with Ness.

I think his best moves to actually combo with are jabs, dtilt, dairs, and maybe even some PKT or PKF. I hope that was somewhat helpful to you.

 

[Yamitsuki]

Eh. That PK Fire one's pretty good, UNLESS they SDI out of it then it's totally useless .

Wha-? PK fire is too good when you hit with it. Cannot you Fair any attempt to DI out in the air, or cover any DI near the ground with Usmash? 50-50 chance of predicting the right thing seems pretty good to me.

 

[Yink]

Wha-? PK fire is too good when you hit with it. Cannot you Fair any attempt to DI out in the air, or cover any DI near the ground with Usmash? 50-50 chance of predicting the right thing seems pretty good to me.

I was under the impression he was on the ground, which then it's pretty darn easy to DI out of and get away spot free with like 2%.

If it's in the air, tons of moves can actually go through PK Fire...that's why it's not AMAZING, but it does do something for setting up combos.

You can actually perfect shield PK Fire and then just run away, so no it's not necessarily that easy if the person you're playing is GOOD with SDI.

 

[Eagleye893]

Okay, I've been trying to find the best move strings surrounding ness, and I've come up with some things:

FH pkfire > AD > dash (grab/Nair/dair) -- this transitions well.
FH pkfire > Uair (only if moving forward, otherwise fair)
Landing fair > dashgrab/dtilt (grab at higher percents, dtilt at lower)
Jab > dashgrab (any percent, but risky)
Landing Bair > dashgrab (Only early percents)
FH Nair > Bair (FF for the height adjustment, but ensure only to hit with toes)
AC'd Dair > FH uair (works for 50 and below assured, but anything above might need a DJ)
AC'd Dair > anything at low percents (Pkt is risky)
Dthrow > frame-perfect dash > (react)

This is insanely awesome. If you have the ability to react quick, low percents assures another attack. Uair, Nair, grab>fthrow/uthrow, utilt, etc. Learn to react quick and this move will be your favorite.
​

utilt >shield(grab)

at early percents, even better than most of ness' moves. If you are just short of the grab, Nair OoS. Utilt > shield is basically unstoppable at some percents. I like this move so much more than before... But on wifi, it seems I'm always just a tiny bit too short. Don't know why. I think it's because it's my reactionary safe move after dtilt and before ftilt... Just eh.​

Uair>upward-angled ftilt (completely assured from 0%; delayed time is okay for some other percents)
Fair>jab>dashgrab (combination, but riskier than before)
Dtilt>grab/dashgrab (very dependent on spacing. Far spacing will be pretty easy to dashgrab, close spacing is variable)
PKJUMP > uair/fair/nair/(*bair)/AD (uair comes out on landing, fair hits first two, Nair hits, AD leads to things similar to FHpkfire>AD, *bair is height dependent... If PKJUMP is initiated just under the top height of SH, bair won't come out)
Those are some strings off the top of my head. Not assured to most.

Some ideas for when people are grounded:
FH the instant they are grounded. You can either drop down with dair, AC it, then shield/dashgrab/whatever or drop FF with a bair, spacing well, and get similar results.
Trip-type grounded just goes with bair. Bair is quick enough and lasting enough to poke in on trip-animation weak spots.

Edit:

With PK fire, you either cancel to an aerial ASAP, airdodge to ground and speedily move, or jump into something else. That's aerial. Grounded is for space pressure. If you hit with grounded, either move back and Pkt or FH over it and try to follow with either another pkfire or dair to prevent the person jumping out. You have to AC that dair perfectly for it to work though. If they SDI the first hit on grounded, just approach like normal, because the pillar is useless at that point. If they SDI the first hit of an AERIAL pkfire, AD to ground then insta-dash toward them, shielding. You have to close the gap or else you lose the tiny amount of time that you can punish before they land. If you don't want to risk it, stay back. I always risk it though. Dash in with shield, then go with OoS options. Grab, Nair, fair, FH Pkfire, etc.

 

[xoxokev]

utilt > utilt
SH dair > utilt
dtilt > fsmash
DAS nair-uair > utilt

all that good stuff

 

[HotWings]

Hey, im trying to figure out the counterpick for all characters so im going to all the Q&A threads of all the characters and posting this. I would like for you to give me your characters worst MU and worst stage so it saves me a lot of time researching it myself and testing stuff.

I would really appreciate it if you all helped me out.

Hope to get some answers pretty soon.

 

[Neon Ness]

As far as matchups, I think the worst ones you're likely to run into in a tournament setting would be King D3/Marth/Snake, in no particular order. His limited range and approach options can make these fights an uphill battle. Personally I think Ness has trouble against Link/Toon Link as well, but that's probably just me being bad.

I dunno, I never really saw him as having any absolutely terrible stages, at least not off the top of my head. I don't like YI because obstacles offstage like Support Ghost/Fly Guys can eat your Thunder at unfortunate times. :| Wallriding is kind of a pain there too.

Thing is though you'll get different answers from different people on the same character, so you should probably at least do a little research on your own to figure out what points you agree/disagree with. Matchups and stages will always feel differently to different people.

 

[Eagleye893]

Marth by far.

Against snake, ness has some means of getting in... More than against Marth (all of marth's attacks are quick and keep ness out almost indefinitely).

DDD is big enough to compensate for the whole... Whatever he has above ness.

 

[MARLX]

What is the match up between ness and falco?

 

[Neon Ness]

I don't think I've ever actually played out this mu before, lol. I could offer some theorycraft and ratios but neither would be helpful.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0BAaW5zRA0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2mgIKsIXHy0

But, I do like kennypu's matches against DEHF, even if they are somewhat... old by now. Very little rushdown, I noticed he used jabs often to reset their distance from each other, and hit with the very edges of fair/uair/bair to maximize his horizontal spacing. Might be helpful to watch those.

I dunno though, every Falco plays differently. You'll also want to play different Falcos to get a feel for the matchup. For instance, keep in mind you can Magnet lasers for free % but there was very little of that in the above matches. So try not to force it if they're not pressuring with lasers, otherwise you may get punished.