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NC Brocator Thread: **** Smash.

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ZIO

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I'm not sharing PP's sister.

Y'all do what you want though . . .

EDIT - WTF YOU PP?

MORE EDIT - MONEY MATCH

MONEY JOHN EDIT - RAISE IT TO $2,000 AND ADD BOB-BOMBS HIGH AND YOU HAVE YOURSELF A MATCH

10 billions light year edits - BATTLE!!!!!!!!!!

Edit that extends beyond our galactic horizon: ZUWARGH!
 

Dr Peepee

Thanks for Everything <3
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Dude I cry a lot when I lose, don't do that to me. =p

Edit: wtf ZIO.

Edit edit: LET'S BATTLEEEEEE

Big ol edit: $500 Pichu dittos

5000 lb b00b edit: YER ON SUCKAAAA

battle of the 7 seas edit: SWING-YAAAAAAAAAAAA

Edit of the lolz: lolz nice read there, ZYRRZ
 

TJ Infinat

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raeford or chapel hill depends on the time of year
well.
I survived yet another calc class.
I hope to channel some vilt for my psych exam. Wish me luck.

Hey, 702. Is that gonna be your tag at tourneys?
If not you may want to think of one, unless you want to tell us you name.
I'm okay with being called TJ at duke biweeklies, but I'm still trying to think of something for other tourneys.
Idk. Infinat Darkness?
Whatchu guys think?
 

Bl@ckChris

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G-G-G-GREEEEEEENSBOROOOOOOO.

yeah i'm here. if you want matches tomorrow, hit me up 702, and i'll see what i can do.

we're all so funny when we finally get new players. especially you rome.
 

Dr Peepee

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So, I decided to write up something I've been thinking about here. I like the black background more than a white one, and I wouldn't mind having you guys look at what I wrote.

Problem here is, I don't have all of my idea thought out yet(hence the writing). Bare with me if I'm a little hard to follow at times. This is how I explore my ideas typically.



I was having a conversation with a player on aim the other day, and Mango and KDJ came up. I, having never really studied KDJ videos, asked the guy what made KDJ so special(I had always heard great things about him). The guy told me that KDJ, like Mango, seemed to just be "playing a different game" when he played vs that dude. I asked what this meant. The guy supports this by saying that those two people "play without fear," that is, to never be intimidated by a situation. They always felt confident in their next move or whatever. This was a very interesting way of putting the scenario to me, but I didn't agree with this viewpoint for the most part.

I decided that this "different game" Mango and KDJ were playing was one that was brought about by their own skill and dedication to learning. Granted, they also probably had some natural talent, but that only takes you so far(and it's also an annoying side topic that I wrestle with occasionally). Could it be that Mango and KDJ simply knew their strategy and character(s) so well that they always felt in control while in "intimidating" positions? This seems good to me. What exactly does that strategy involve though, and how would a knowledge of their character be related to it? Well, this is about as far as I got just thinking, so now I'm about to free-ball this sucker.

A "strategy" seems to form for most players through experience, theory(amount varies from player to player and region to region), and creative ideas. Without delving into what makes each element super important and all that, I kinda want to think about what really gives rise to such confidence when players ascend normal levels at Melee in relation to one of them. That is, I want to find out which element is the most important in determining a special player's development.

Each element seems important(obviously), but I think that, for those two players anyway, theory probably did the least and creative ideas the most(though Mango did have extensive focus on his experience in order to perfect his style, no comment on KDJ, though he was at MLGs...). I say that theory did the least for those two because they played so much that they didn't need it and understand the matchups IN THEIR OWN WAY. I bet this stems from their creative ideas, which were tested and perfected through hundreds of matches. Actually, this is starting to look like what I think it takes to be good at Melee in general, so I may not be quite at what makes these two players "different" yet. Hmm.....


I was hoping to provide a better outlook on creative ideas so it would blend into my character theory better, but I guess I'll just start typing and see what happens.

What pushes a player to know their character well enough to make someone say that they aren't really "fighting the character but their opponent?" Honestly, I find that to be a stupid phrase in the first place, since I believe it's only through the character that......WAIT

Mastery of a character. Creative ideas. Extensive high-level experience. What do these have in common? If you have mastery, then you tend to have the other two. If you have creative ideas, then you might have nothing.....If you have high-level experience, then you might have no others either.....so what does it mean? Mastering your character is the first step? I think so. It goes deeper than that though. M2K and Armada have "mastered their characters," yet they aren't as traditionally singled out as players who play a "different game." What sets character masters aside from Mango and KDJ? They are masters of their character(s), but they are more than that. How can they be more than that? To master your character is to be the best with them and be a phenomenal player.

Maybe we should come back to creative ideas. What if a player can "master" a character but never invent a new technique with them, or be only a master insofar as their will lets them(mental blocks on things like character matchups/personal matchups/improvements/ect prevent it)? What if it takes a special mind, or minds in this case, to really come up with new things that allow them to further the level of "mastery" a character can achieve? That doesn't seem so crazy. Metagame advancements have been going on great in recent years. We've gotten more technical, more efficient, more effective. Is it really odd to believe that there are certain people who are better at this than others by a large margin? I could believe that. M2K and Armada have invented sooooo much for their respective characters though. There HAS to be something else.....

Alright, until I think about this more, I will settle on the fact that the minds of these two players simply work differently than those of the ordinary smashers. I believe Mango earned his through hard work, and KDJ was just gifted with his(being renowned as a truly "random" player is quite a title, and a rare one, apparently). Whatever the reason, I think that both Mango and KDJ have(or in KDJ's case, had) achieved a level of smash that is foreign to the average smasher. They don't necessarily see all options, but they do know how to apply theirs in a unique and powerful way.


.........................




Thoughts?
 

null55

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otr though, it's like painting. some people make some amazing realist paintings (M2K = Iman Maleki) that astound you at how precise and technically refined they are. and some people go beyond just realism and create works of art that show different truths based on reality ("creativity"; Mango = Monet). both work out. lol one is better though.

here's my fear though: once you've mastered your craft... you've mastered it and there's no going back. :urg: (that may be another reason why some people are so good, they are way more flexible and adaptive and keep a much more dense base foundation of their rules in smash, instead of trying to construct strong, tall skyscraping boundaries of what to do and not to do.)

spend your RPG points wisely.
 

Dorsey

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so you just recently figured this out? you're way behind in the metagame....... ;)

There's one thing they have in common that I can think of: they're not habitual; or they don't have a routine......and I don't mean just 'playing off reaction' because that can be habitual as well.
 

Dr Peepee

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so you just recently figured this out? you're way behind in the metagame....... ;)

There's one thing they have in common that I can think of: they're not habitual; or they don't have a routine......and I don't mean just 'playing off reaction' because that can be habitual as well.
Actually, I think Mango has patterns, but they are verrrry hard to pick up on. I've never played KDJ, so I can't comment on him. That is going to be my private thing after I see what you guys give me to think about though lol.

Now then, I obv just figured it out. I'm a scrub. Obv


Edit: Interesting idea Cam. Can you give examples(though I'm pretty sure I know who you're talking about)?
 

Dorsey

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Obv.

I'm thinking about his puff when I say this... i'd say that falco as a character just in general is more prone to patterns, and i'm sure you of all people pick up on them just fine. Both chars that I associate with the 2 people you mentioned, sheik and puff, are possibly the 2 most non-routine-like chars in the set though.

edit: maybe you shouldn't laser as much? it's pretty obv you're going to do it
 

Dr Peepee

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Obvvvvv sir.

I wish I played Sheik or Puff at all, so I could assess that statement better, but I am blissfully ignorant about those characters LOL.
 

Dorsey

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ahh.. I guess I mean that in my opinion, both sheik and puff have the most _potential_ for a successful, non-routine-like style in comparison to the other chars. Maybe this somewhat facilitates it for these people who are 'playing a different game'?

IDK. I'm just throwing **** out in the air here.
 

Dr Peepee

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I really don't know. All of the high tiers have been surprising me with their use of options lately. I wonder whether it is the player or the character, and I honestly feel like it's a player thing.

Like I said though, I'd need to understand puff and sheik far better than I do to fully make that call.
 

null55

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well, the thing about Falco is... you're ******** if you don't laser right. and as far as spacing lasering effectively is concerned, you can't get TOO creative with that i don't think. but you can do some original stuff obv.

and i may just be ignorant, but beyond that i feel like it's w/e. there are combos that you just have to do sometimes, but you can get creative with Lombardi no doubt. i would agree that **** is less set in stone than with Puff or Sheik though, just cause Falco gives you more freedom... ironic that freedom of a character and more patterned methods of use are positively correlated. but that's prob just for Falco... Fox does whatever he wants...

can you tell me what from my post you want examples of, PP? i have class until about 4, but i'll be back then.
 

Dr Peepee

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There are different ways to laser 'right' with Falco. Zhu showed me his entirely different from Chops/southern way at Pound.

Falco can go nuts with combos. I used to have my head filled with ideas.....

The winding skyscraper or solid foundation. Possibly with your idea of pros and cons of each?
 

lord karn

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I think that the thing with players like KDJ and Mango is that they play the same game, just not the same metagame. Such players don't seem to have conditioned responses for certain moves; they simply know all of the frames really well (maybe through speed, knowledge, or whatever) and react to each situation freshly. People like M2K and Armada see situations and think, Player A did this, so I respond with this. Players like Mango and kdj see the same situation and think (probably more instinctual, really) I have this many frames and choose different things often. They don't play optimized games the same way Armada and M2K do. It's all just a matter of style. Theoretically, the m2k/armada style might be better, but do to imperfections the mango/kdj style works really well because the nature of it makes it really hard to read. Even when these players make mistakes, sometimes the opponent doesn't capitalize on it because they are always being surprised. This is also why Mango/kdj combos are always so weird and new, whereas m2k/armada combos are ridiculous but you can usually see them coming.

It is important to note that playing with the mango/kdj style is not necessarily better. I would say that lozr definitely plays with such a style, but yet he's not nearly as good as those two.
 

Dorsey

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I think it's the player as well. How I think about it though.... I guess I consider sheik and puff to suit the aforementioned players better in regard to their playstyles. I may be wrong; and yeah, all the high tiers have plenty of great options.
 

Dr Peepee

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@Karn: I honestly feel like it could go deeper than that(mostly because I feel like KDJ and Mango cannot be pinned down to a tag such as "instinctual"), but that was a good read nonetheless.

@LoZR part: A lot of old-school players play with the intention of doing things their own way. They invented a lot of their characters' stuff and never learned "proper" things. I think the only thing that separates the LoZRs from the Mangos is the experience and maybe amount of creativity they possess.

I have always stood by the ideal that LoZR would be a super top player if he just had the right experience.
 

ZIO

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Not to be insulting, but i think Adam still has the potential to be one of the top 5 players in the U.S, if not the world. He's just not in the right place to gain the right practice.

EDIT - Adam is the darn BEST.

Double EDIT - TDB = Adam.

Triple edit - Adam is probably better than the best

Quadit - Lolz

Quintuple edit - BANKS
 

~Twitch~

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Oh hey Dr PEepee!

I play Melee, in my opinion it's the "fun" one. Haha. What about you guyz?
I'm 13. Who is Maria if you don't mind me asking haha XD


Oh that is a good point, I didn't even notice that little button ROFL


Most guys here Wavedash right? Not to sound noobish XD
i like this new guy. :D

edit: lol, dr. neo is so ****.
 

null55

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**** *****.

@PP: yeah i'm talking about the difference between more mechanized, pre-thoughtout playstyles rather than those that are more amorphous. i'm saying that people with that "something" have the ability to see weird things that give them way more freedom when adapting to people. people who plan, who experience and then think about why they lose at a later time and how to counter as many individual situations as possible, get taken advantage of by "improper" strategies. M2K ***** Azen cause Azen "does all the right things,".. he spaces the way he "should." i feel like KDJ and Mango get much riskier, but they know when they can. KDJ just wasn't around long enough, he was and could be now a top 5 player in the US in my opinion. Mango obv is the best. M2K has been playing this game longer than any other pro.
 

Bl@ckChris

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i don't know enough. i'm still learning. since i'm nowhere near halfway to mastering my character, the ingenuity that i try to bring to my character is primarily because i don't know my "right" options, so i just do what i think i might have enough frames to do. but this is all interesting to think about.
 
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