Mewtwo Patch (Version 1.0.6[7]) Thread [Updated: May 1st]

[KuroganeHammer]

Here we go. As usual, top is pre-patch, bottom is post-patch.

Jab 1:

Jab 2:

F-tilt:

All were reduced in total frames by 3.

Posting again to say thank you.

 

[BCE]

these -3 frames for marth also applies to lucina ?

 

[Moydow]

these -3 frames for marth also applies to lucina ?

Yes

 

[King Omega]

Jab

• Move duration has been nerfed from 19 frames to 27
• IASA frames have been removed.

Which jab?

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Jab 1

 

[Vipermoon]

Without recording equipment, I had to use caveman methods but believe me this is not a placebo.

I decided to analyze every single one of Marth's animations since we found out about some IASA changes.

You know how grounded Dancing Blade 1 is super laggy? Well listen to this. I have a 3DS with 1.0.3 (before the Wii U version came out / before the first balance patch), so I don't know if this changed in 1.0.4 or 1.0.6 but I watched the animation in 1/4 speed between the two versions while holding and watching the position of Marth's sword right when he shields probably 100 times now. Marth shields earlier in the animation, I'd say anywhere between 2-4 frames earlier than on 1.0.3. And to double check, I spammed DB1 in 1.0.6/7 over and over till I had perfect timing on the earliest frame to input the next one. I moved over to 1.0.3 immediately and my perfect timing was too soon where Marth would either DB2 or do nothing after the first DB1 I try. I had to slow myself down to get subsequent DB1s in 1.0.3.

All of Marth other IASAs except the jabs and Ftilt are the same, including other dancing blade attacks. And yes, even DB1 aerial is the same.

Can someone with recording equipment please get the exact numbers on DB1? We also need to find out if this was a 1.0.4 change or a 1.0.6 change (jabs and Ftilt was 1.0.6) so we need someone with access to 1.0.4 (called 1.0.2 on the Wii U version).

 

[Shaya]

Basically,

Marth's dancing blade 2.0 frame multiplier has been reduced to 1.6666 (most likely)
It's now coming out on frame 6 from 7 (frame multiplier maths is hard) and it's end lag is 45 -> 42

Reference: http://opensa.dantarion.com/s4/mastercore2/index.php?char=marth&mode=view104#subaction-22E

 

[Pazx]

All of these changes are from Chibo's vids and have yet to be added to the OP.

Samus's super missile goes faster. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9lb8EC9_jo

Diddy's usmash could probably be added to the changes to multi hit moves list. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtSljkQ_Ndw

Link's dash attack does 1% less. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zubq1Tu8PUk

~~~~something~~~~ to do with Falcon's Bthrow (apparently something was also changed with the hitlag of Ganon's throws, could be similar) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRSzRS_A2MY

If @ChiboSempai could post a text version of all of his changes that would be incredible.

 

[LordWilliam1234]

Admittedly I haven't gotten around to checking through all of Marth's frame data yet. However, checking Marth's Dancing Blade 1:

Wii U 1.02, total frames is 46.

Wii U 1.07, total frames is 42.

So as noted above, it ends earlier now.

Start-up is still 7 frames and the earliest frame that it goes into DB2 is still frame 10.

Gif comparison:

That's what, 4 changes? Definitely will go through Marth's/Lucina's frame data now. There's probably even more.

 

[Vipermoon]

Admittedly I haven't gotten around to checking through all of Marth's frame data yet. However, checking Marth's Dancing Blade 1:

Wii U 1.02, total frames is 46.

Wii U 1.07, total frames is 42.

So as noted above, it ends earlier now.

Start-up is still 7 frames and the earliest frame that it goes into DB2 is still frame 10.

Gif comparison:

That's what, 4 changes? Definitely will go through Marth's/Lucina's frame data now. There's probably even more.

Thanks for that! Can you also check aerial dancing blade? I don't have recording equipment but I couldn't tell a difference. Aerial dancing blade 1 is/was 33 (it has less lag for vertical recovery and air stalling uses).

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

these -3 frames for marth also applies to lucina ?

Yes, of course.

 

[Yonder]

So...Greninja got nerfed again then looking at these notes?

The meme lives on!

 

[Quickhero]

So...Greninja got nerfed again then looking at these notes?

The meme lives on!

If there are people actually annoyed at the bugfix enough for people to revive the meme (even though he got nerfed a total of twice, one being minor) I don't even know what to say lol. The meme isn't really something I want being everywhere again.

 

[Thinkaman]

If there are people actually annoyed at the bugfix enough for people to revive the meme (even though he got nerfed a total of twice, one being minor) I don't even know what to say lol. The meme isn't really something I want being everywhere again.

Reality rarely has much impact on memes.

Two of the biggest memes in LoL have been "better make more Teemo skins" and "better nerf Irelia", even though Teemo has historically not had the most skins, and Irelia was only nerfed a handful of times. (As well as buffed a few too)

 

[Indigo Jeans]

If I had my druthers we wouldn't have memes in the first place.

 

[bc1910]

If there are people actually annoyed at the bugfix enough for people to revive the meme (even though he got nerfed a total of twice, one being minor) I don't even know what to say lol. The meme isn't really something I want being everywhere again.

Not even that. The second "nerf" was a bugfix for running Shadow Sneak, just like this is a bugfix for infinite Shadow Sneak.

They're just bugfixes that happen to be nerfs, similar to Link's old bomb landing lag cancels. Although Greninja's SS bugfixes hardly affect him whereas that bugfix really hurt Link.

 

[Thinkaman]

I liked memes when they were the "high-brow trendy things in pop culture that people referenced" definition, I liked memes in the "dense internal references" Arrested Development definition, and I even liked memes in the YTMND/image macro/imgur/Andrew Hussie "witty visual callback" definition.

But this "crap people repeat in twitch chat KAPPA" definition is the low point of humanity.

Anyway, back on the subject of the patch. I'm really happy someone found these Marth/Lucina changes and documented them so well.

 

[ZeldaZephyr]

Nerfing the HOO HAA still wasn't enough to stop Diddy's wrath on the Meta.

 

[Quickhero]

Anyway, back on the subject of the patch. I'm really happy someone found these Marth/Lucina changes and documented them so well.

Kind of a thing for next patch, but I think people on individual boards WITHOUT any means of confirming/de-confirming changes should all spend a minute on a character and compare them to previous games if/when the next patch occurs.

I know it's not the most reliable thing, but it becomes much more recognizable to see if you notice that "oh hey, Marth can do jab to anything at the exact same time as Brawl Marth did, better check that in!" Nothing for you to do, since you use all the time you can to make sure you include ALL the changes. (Thanks sincerely for that ) It's just something that I think people that don't put as much time in should do, since if you find something to be exactly the same the person finds something they already have the frame data to confirm any changes! :D

 

[ZeldaZephyr]

Just one little thing extra i want to put out there. I think Bowser has faster ground speed. His attacks also combo easier and His Fair works on Bowser's favor.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Reality rarely has much impact on memes.

Two of the biggest memes in LoL have been "better make more Teemo skins" and "better nerf Irelia", even though Teemo has historically not had the most skins, and Irelia was only nerfed a handful of times. (As well as buffed a few too)

Unrelated to discussion for now.

 

[Omega Tyrant]

Just one little thing extra i want to put out there. I think Bowser has faster ground speed. His attacks also combo easier and His Fair works on Bowser's favor.

You need to be specific on what you're claiming is changed, this is way too vague.

 

[Runic_SSB]

Just one little thing extra i want to put out there. I think Bowser has faster ground speed. His attacks also combo easier and His Fair works on Bowser's favor.

 

[LordWilliam1234]

Thanks for that! Can you also check aerial dancing blade? I don't have recording equipment but I couldn't tell a difference. Aerial dancing blade 1 is/was 33 (it has less lag for vertical recovery and air stalling uses).

Aerial dancing blade seems the same.

 

[Vipermoon]

Aerial dancing blade seems the same.

That's what I thought. The way I tested it was I did short hop DB to Bair in slow motion and Bair just barely came out in both versions.

 

[Phoenon]

If you can IASA air DB1 faster then it should be good for vertical recovery at the apex of a jump.

 

[Vipermoon]

If you can IASA air DB1 faster then it should be good for vertical recovery at the apex of a jump.

Yes, that is known. Though 33 frames is still a lot, some of the vertical gain is wasted waiting for the move to finish so you can Up B. What sucks is if you're impatient and do it slightly too early you DB2 Up and at the point you are dead for sure.

So I only use it when stalling is necessary or if that little bit of height is the difference between life and death. And I cringe when I see Marths in FG using it for horizontal recovery. They literally stop all horizontal movement with it, and they see that, but they keep using it like it's Melee. Facepalm.

 

[Quickhero]

Aerial dancing blade seems the same.

What have you not yet tried out? If you haven't tried out n-air, could you? Either it's always been the same as Brawl, or that move in particular I've been able to consistently do and both Brawl Marth as well as 3DS Marth can double jump and do 1 full n-air and then half of the other before landing on the ground with the same landing lag. The rest of the aerials I believe have worse lag than Brawl's but I think n-air originally had worse end lag than Brawl? I just want to make sure haha.

Thanks for your effort man. If you've already done this, please disregard. If you don't want to, I really would just need to know how I can possibly record in frames and I'll check it out myself.

 

[Vipermoon]

What have you not yet tried out? If you haven't tried out n-air, could you? Either it's always been the same as Brawl, or that move in particular I've been able to consistently do and both Brawl Marth as well as 3DS Marth can double jump and do 1 full n-air and then half of the other before landing on the ground with the same landing lag. The rest of the aerials I believe have worse lag than Brawl's but I think n-air originally had worse end lag than Brawl? I just want to make sure haha.

Thanks for your effort man. If you've already done this, please disregard. If you don't want to, I really would just need to know how I can possibly record in frames and I'll check it out myself.

All of Marth's aerials are still the same (from previous patches). They didn't give Nair extra end lag from Brawl. They gave it better range, way worse autocancel, twice the landing lag, almost half the damage, and less kill power.

 

[Quickhero]

All of Marth's aerials are still the same. They didn't give Nair extra end lag from Brawl. They gave it better range, way worse autocancel, twice the landing lag, almost half the damage, and less kill power.

Ah darn. D: On the bright side, it hits the opponent at a set position, so things like n-air to f-air is possible and even sh n-air to F-Smash against heavy characters.

I guess we're good on Marth. We got the buffs we needed (f-tilt, jab, and DB) and we should move on to other characters now. Thanks @ Thinkaman , @ Shaya , @ KuroganeHammer , and @ LordWilliam1234 for all the effort! You guys did an amazing job and you're continuing to do an amazing job with the rest of the characters!

 

[Shaya]

Anyway, back to my pre-patch drop speculation of where a majority of work would go...
(i.e. based off japan's tier list: shi-gaming)

https://d13xjf6056yhmz.cloudfront.n...80925e93cf884c_2015-03-06.png/show?1425665622

All of E tier was touched/buffed except WiiFit and Ike (that we know of).
While the top 5 of the list ("10.00") were nerfed except for Yoshi (which got a minor buff).
4 of the 10 in B tier were nerfed, while Megaman received buffs/bug fixes. All very small if anything.
4 of the 8 in D tier were touched, Doc being the only one with pure buffs it seems. Link got a lot of things shifted around.

The outlier seems to be Toon Link, which had his down smash nerfed, but unknown compensation or understood justification.

The 1.04 patch heavily focused on the top 5 and bottom 5 of the Shi-gaming list, and it's roughly similar to now with a few digs in certain places otherwise.
I would say with that in mind, this patch was more comprehensive than the last one, but changes have been a lot smaller in range than what we were seeing last time.

 

[Vipermoon]

Ah darn. D: On the bright side, it hits the opponent at a set position, so things like n-air to f-air is possible and even sh n-air to F-Smash against heavy characters.

I guess we're good on Marth. We got the buffs we needed (f-tilt, jab, and DB) and we should move on to other characters now. Thanks @ Thinkaman , @ Shaya , @ KuroganeHammer , and @ LordWilliam1234 for all the effort! You guys did an amazing job and you're continuing to do an amazing job with the rest of the characters!

If you are content with these buffs then I am happy for you. A want a couple more things but have fun with a little less end lag.

 

[Sinister Slush]

That ledge attack buff is quite literally nothing though.

 

[Shaya]

Better than being nerfed because japan thinks he's good, right?

 

[Sinister Slush]

Yeah, but honestly Yoshi wasn't winning anything over there in the first place for that 3rd placement.

 

[LordWilliam1234]

What have you not yet tried out?

I rechecked all of Marth's moves. His only changes were the reduction in endlag for jab 1, jab 2, f-tilt, and grounded Dancing Blade 1. Everything else, at least frame-wise, is the same. Same goes for Lucina, naturally.

These are the numbers I have for Marth.

 

[Vipermoon]

I rechecked all of Marth's moves. His only changes were the reduction in endlag for jab 1, jab 2, f-tilt, and grounded Dancing Blade 1. Everything else, at least frame-wise, is the same. Same goes for Lucina, naturally.

These are the numbers I have for Marth.

Wow, you have more than just Marth. Thank you for working so hard for the community.

 

[pH1988]

Is it just me or is Peach significantly faster now, plus Turnip pull and time before ability to throw seems less, maybe comparable to Brawl. Her normal moves seem to have less ending lag....or maybe I've been playing online too long lol.

 

[FullMoon]

@ Shaya , was Greninja changed or not, the OP looks like it doesn't know =V

It's worth noting though that with the infinite Shadow Sneak bug corrected, Greninja now teleports instantly when landing. Before he would go through the usual landing animation which would stall the shadow significantly even if you had let go of the B button, now he just cancels the landing animation (it doesn't cancel landing lag though, just the normal landing animation, Shadow Sneak cancellabe D-Air isn't back sadly).

So this bugfix has it's own benefits as well that are just as situational as the infinite Shadow Sneak.

So I would leave the removal of the AT as neither a nerf nor a buff. Honestly the landing lag thing with Shadow Sneak when the bug was still around caused me more annoyance that anything when I accidentally touched the ground when trying to release Shadow Sneak and resulted in the positioning of the shadow getting messed up and also in me getting punished.

 

[Mr.ケイ]

If you are content with these buffs then I am happy for you. A want a couple more things but have fun with a little less end lag.

My biggest problem with Marth is how worthless his D-air is at spiking followed closely by the bad cool down to his F-air and bad auto canceling to his N-air and F-air.