Metaknight iz zo brokn!!!!!!!!!!!!

[brinboy789]

once again, this is simply for the act of grabbing, not what the character can do out of a grab (tho admittedly, they do match up)

MK cannot do anything out of any grab except for dthrow.

 

[DanGR]

MK has a very fast dash grab with uber range. His standing grab has above average range and speed as well. It's in the thread I linked.

 

[Ussi]

Zelda has the fastest spot dodge. Her spot dodge dsmash is the most deadliest.

 

[Iwan]

WHoaaaaaaaaaaaa whoa whoa whoa whoa.....

Worst Utilt Ganon? REALLY?

Totally disagree with that. lol. Great for edge guarding, mindgames like whoa, stupid distance, essentially an insta--shield breaker, and huge knnockback and damage.

 

[choknater]

yeah, but it will never hit anyone

 

[Gindler]

Why is MK above sonic for Uthrow...isn't kirby's Uthrow better than MKs anyway? I haven't compared them side by side buy kirby's involves an explosion so I'm assuming it'd be more powerful =P

 

[Buci01]

meh... I don't see why Zelda's Dair is the worst.... I kill with it very often... you know... you have to hit right, then it is as good as her bair and fair

and Luigi's Dash Attack isn't the worst either, I play often against a Luigi player, and he knows how to use it.

And I am missing like every drill attack, like Kirby's Dair, or Pit's Uair

and the worst, by far the worst Down B is Mario's

 

[Hylian]

Just popping in to say that Samus's Zair is easily the best overall move in this game.

That is all.

 

[Brinzy]

Zelda's dair is atrocious. So it can meteor. Big deal.

Even though I have sweetspotted it randomly when fighting on-stage, the move just sucks. Poor range, needs a sweetspot or else it sucks for the most part, and it doesn't even sweetspot on a grounded. If it didn't lack the ground sweetspot, it wouldn't be as bad, but then she'd be like Ganon...

Though it's fun to sweetspot on those effing Peach players who like to float right above the ground.

 

[The_Blue_Bomber]

Top ten fsmashs

1.lucario
2.pit
3.wario
4. lucas
5.kirby
6.G&W
7.wolf
8.donkey kong
9.luigi
10. sonic

Marth says hi?

Up+b

1.MK
2.Pikachu
3.rob
4.G&W
5.marth
6.sonic
7.lugi
8.pit
9.bowser
10.DK

This part kinda contradicts it's self, I mean if it is based on recovery then why is DK there? If it is based on power/damage/etc then why are Pit and Sonic there?

If it's power/damage/etc then I really believe Ness/Lucas deserve a mention, PKT2 kills at ridiculously low percents.

 

[Browny]

wtf how did sonics fsmash get #10 lol

 

[Gindler]

Marth says hi?


This part kinda contradicts it's self, I mean if it is based on recovery then why is DK there? If it is based on power/damage/etc then why are Pit and Sonic there?

If it's power/damage/etc then I really believe Ness/Lucas deserve a mention, PKT2 kills at ridiculously low percents.

Lucas' PKT2 doesn't kill until like 125%, and that's if you're actually caught in the whole thing. But yeah, seconding Ness I know how awesomely Low PKT2 can kill. NessPKT2>>>>>>Lucas's PKT2...as a kill move anyway

wtf how did sonics fsmash get #10 lol

I was thinking the exact same thing, mario's is better I think although you do have to sweetspot it.

 

[Ussi]

Recovery i think is for overall useful ness.... Cause Sonic rely on Spring to get away a lot and Pit has some WoI stuff he does like doing it on ground lets him keep his jumps and he can do it again in the air so he can edge guard better. Same with ROB as his Up B lets him edge guard anywhere.

On the list I doubt Luigi's up B as it has less uses than DK's, Bowser's and Pit's. Bowser's is such an awesome OoS attack. And DK's is nice for SA and provides 20 some damage if all hits connect.


But thats what I am thinking that is all....I think Marth's Up B should be 3rd though....

 

[chic]

hmm luigi has the worst dash? thats pretty crazy. not unexpected though since ive never actually found use for it :D

 

[viparagon]

yeah, and chars with 2frame jabs actually jab out you before the last hit >.>

sonics fsmash is good acording to shadowlink and others.

Why is MK above sonic for Uthrow...isn't kirby's Uthrow better than MKs anyway? I haven't compared them side by side buy kirby's involves an explosion so I'm assuming it'd be more powerful =P

I checked the throw chart, and aparently MKs does 12% like sonics and kills earlier... Imagine that...

 

[Ussi]

I checked the throw chart, and aparently MKs does 12% like sonics and kills earlier... Imagine that...

Sonic has good follow ups after his uthrow though

 

[viparagon]

Sonic has good follow ups after his uthrow though

metaknight can upb +nado, and I think that beats spring uair?

 

[Ussi]

metaknight can upb +nado, and I think that beats spring uair?

.. since when does MK follow up uthrow with up b?...

 

[viparagon]

.. since when does MK follow up uthrow with up b?...

if they DI badly IIRC

and if not it sets up for GA

 

[Kitamerby]

Actually, after thinking about it and talking it over with a friend, apparently, Pit may actually have the best Fsmash since it really does have respectable kill power and good enough range to just barely beat out most approaches. It also is the fastest Fsmash by far at 7 frames, faster than most people's tilts by a noticeable margin. However, its best feature is being safe on block against most characters. Being safe on block is a very important factor. Wario's Fsmash is powerful, but if it's blocked it doesn't matter what happens, he's going to eat something big. Pit's fsmash is disjointed, has very little after-lag, two hits, and respectable push-back and shieldstun if I recall correctly.


The truth of the matter is that you're not going to powershield a move that comes out in 7 frames, let alone powershield both hits due to its sheer speed, even if you expect the move. :\

Pit's Fsmash's speed and overall safety I believe now outweigh its average kill power.

 

[viparagon]

Actually, after thinking about it and talking it over with a friend, apparently, Pit may actually have the best Fsmash since it really does have respectable kill power and good enough range to just barely beat out most approaches. It also is the fastest Fsmash by far at 7 frames, faster than most people's tilts by a noticeable margin. However, its best feature is being safe on block against most characters. Being safe on block is a very important factor. Wario's Fsmash is powerful, but if it's blocked it doesn't matter what happens, he's going to eat something big. Pit's fsmash is disjointed, has very little after-lag, two hits, and respectable push-back and shieldstun if I recall correctly.


The truth of the matter is that you're not going to powershield a move that comes out in 7 frames, let alone powershield both hits due to its sheer speed, even if you expect the move. :\

Pit's Fsmash's speed and overall safety I believe now outweigh its average kill power.

thanks, so now I guess your switching sides with me

don't forget angeling step...

 

[DanGR]

Just popping in to say that Samus's Zair is easily the best overall move in this game.

That is all.

Olimar's pivotgrab is better.

edit:

dthrow

1.d3
2.falco
3.Ics
4.snake
5.Lucas

lol

 

[brinboy789]

why, why, WHY is MK even on the grab list? i mean, yea his grabs are OK, but 5th in the game? cmon...

and for lucas in dthrow, switch with squirtle, can KO @ around 130. beast move

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Best Dsmash has gotta be ROB, not MK, not that MK's isn't good, But sheik, Zelda and ROB all have Dsamshes faster than Meta's... and Zelda's kills much better, ROBs is just as hard to punish and sheik's does more damage to sheilds and can;t be spotdodged.

also.. it's semi slow, but Zelda's upair is the strongest by far. it might not be the BEST in the game, but it's certainly the strongest and is at least top 5.

only other Zelda move that should be higher is her Dtilt, which is fast, clanks, traps/trips and combos into 4 different kill moves. Zelda's Dtilt is better than Charizard's or ROB's

Also: ness isn't top 10 with his dair? one of the best in the game? that's nuts. and zelad does not have the game's WORST dair either. lucas's for one is worse. Zelda's dair is one of the strongest spikes in the game when it sweetspots. and when it doesn;t it still spikes. Lucas's doesn't spike unless it sweetspots the last hit.... which is about as strong as Zelda's weak spike.


also, IC's don't have the worst grab. Zelda does. it's got the speed of a tether grab with the range of a regular grab... speaking of grabs... why is MK even on that list? Sonic's running sheildgrab should merrit him a spot.

I'd also argue sheik's Ftilt is better than snake's. there are a handfullof matchups that are essentially unwinnable against sheik because of sheik's ftilt. but I suppose Snake's ftilt is always good, but its never as good as sheik's is in those mathupes

I'd also move peach's jab up the list in usefulness

I'd say gannon's dsmash is worse than jiggly's. at least when jiggly's hits, it destroys due to its amazing angle. G-Dorf's is slow and not too stong for one of his moves.

speaking of Jigglypuff, her fair is exceptional. it's one of her best, if not her best move... and it's not even on the list.

Also... the two best Down+Bs are Zelda and sheik... no character has a move that is CLOSE to as good as that one.

also... WTF lucas's throws being that high?

Squirtle and charizard, for example have MUCH better downthrows, and Ivysaur has a much better Upthrow

 

[bobson]

Needs a spotdodge section.
Worst down B is Shiek's.

 

[brinboy789]

Best Dsmash has gotta be ROB, not MK, not that MK's isn't good, But sheik, Zelda and ROB all have Dsamshes faster than Meta's... and Zelda's kills much better, ROBs is just as hard to punish and sheik's does more damage to sheilds and can;t be spotdodged.

also.. it's semi slow, but Zelda's upair is the strongest by far. it might not be the BEST in the game, but it's certainly the strongest and is at least top 5.

only other Zelda move that should be higher is her Dtilt, which is fast, clanks, traps/trips and combos into 4 different kill moves. Zelda's Dtilt is better than Charizard's or ROB's

Also: ness isn't top 10 with his dair? one of the best in the game? that's nuts. and zelad does not have the game's WORST dair either. lucas's for one is worse. Zelda's dair is one of the strongest spikes in the game when it sweetspots. and when it doesn;t it still spikes. Lucas's doesn't spike unless it sweetspots the last hit.... which is about as strong as Zelda's weak spike.


also, IC's don't have the worst grab. Zelda does. it's got the speed of a tether grab with the range of a regular grab... speaking of grabs... why is MK even on that list? Sonic's running sheildgrab should merrit him a spot.

I'd also argue sheik's Ftilt is better than snake's. there are a handfullof matchups that are essentially unwinnable against sheik because of sheik's ftilt. but I suppose Snake's ftilt is always good, but its never as good as sheik's is in those mathupes

I'd also move peach's jab up the list in usefulness

I'd say gannon's dsmash is worse than jiggly's. at least when jiggly's hits, it destroys due to its amazing angle. G-Dorf's is slow and not too stong for one of his moves.

speaking of Jigglypuff, her fair is exceptional. it's one of her best, if not her best move... and it's not even on the list.

Also... the two best Down+Bs are Zelda and sheik... no character has a move that is CLOSE to as good as that one.

also... WTF lucas's throws being that high?

Squirtle and charizard, for example have MUCH better downthrows, and Ivysaur has a much better Upthrow

I agree with everything here, cept lucas's dair being the worse. it does a total of 20 damage, is 4 hites, can spike, and has practically no starting lag and not that much ending lag.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I agree with everything here, cept lucas's dair being the worse. it does a total of 20 damage, is 4 hites, can spike, and has practically no starting lag and not that much ending lag.

lucas was just an example of a dair worse than zelda's. maybe it's not the worst, but it's worse than Zelda's. as are the dairs of a few other charcters. Jigglypuff comes to mind. Sheik comes to mind, ZSS comes to mind, Ice climbers come to mind...


and HTF does Bobson figure sheik has the worst down+B in the game.... or does he not know that this isn't in the melee section?

 

[DanGR]

Best Dsmash has gotta be ROB, not MK, not that MK's isn't good, But sheik, Zelda and ROB all have Dsamshes faster than Meta's... and Zelda's kills much better, ROBs is just as hard to punish and sheik's does more damage to sheilds and can;t be spotdodged.

Rob has the best. I agree. MK's is better than Zelda's though. While Zelda's is faster, it has much less range with more cooldown. Zelda's is probably 3rd.

also.. it's semi slow, but Zelda's upair is the strongest by far. it might not be the BEST in the game, but it's certainly the strongest and is at least top 5.

no, just no.

only other Zelda move that should be higher is her Dtilt, which is fast, clanks, traps/trips and combos into 4 different kill moves. Zelda's Dtilt is better than Charizard's or ROB's.

In what category is Zelda's dtilt better than Rob's?

Also: ness isn't top 10 with his dair? one of the best in the game? that's nuts. and zelad does not have the game's WORST dair either. lucas's for one is worse. Zelda's dair is one of the strongest spikes in the game when it sweetspots. and when it doesn;t it still spikes. Lucas's doesn't spike unless it sweetspots the last hit.... which is about as strong as Zelda's weak spike.

Ness' should be top 10. Lucas' dair is definitely better than Zelda's. As a spike, Zelda's is better. But in everything else, Lucas' is better.

I'd place the weaker of ZSS' and Sheik's dair at worse.

also, IC's don't have the worst grab. Zelda does. it's got the speed of a tether grab with the range of a regular grab... speaking of grabs... why is MK even on that list? Sonic's running sheildgrab should merrit him a spot.

lol, IC is the worst by far.

I'd also argue sheik's Ftilt is better than snake's. there are a handfullof matchups that are essentially unwinnable against sheik because of sheik's ftilt. but I suppose Snake's ftilt is always good, but its never as good as sheik's is in those mathupes

Overall Snake's is better.

I'd also move peach's jab up the list in usefulness

agreed.

I'd say gannon's dsmash is worse than jiggly's. at least when jiggly's hits, it destroys due to its amazing angle. G-Dorf's is slow and not too stong for one of his moves.

agreed.

speaking of Jigglypuff, her fair is exceptional. it's one of her best, if not her best move... and it's not even on the list.

I agree with a higher placement, but your reasoning isn't correct. Captain Falcon's best move is his jab. That's no reason to place it above Ike's though.

Also... the two best Down+Bs are Zelda and sheik... no character has a move that is CLOSE to as good as that one.

lol, I'd rather have bananas.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Rob has the best. I agree. MK's is better than Zelda's though. While Zelda's is faster, it has much less range with more cooldown. Zelda's is probably 3rd.

yes. that's correct. I only said ROBs should be higher than MK's in the first place though. just that those other two: Zelda and Sheik, ahve fantastic Dsmashes and should be higher.

no, just no.

the strongest upair in the game, that has completely unparalleled priority (outprioritizes anything and doesn't clank) has better range than any other Uair or Dair that it would ever be facing. and it's not even top ten. explain that.

In what category is Zelda's dtilt better than Rob's?

Rob's pokes, Zelda's wracks up damage by catching AND combos into KO moves, and trips enemies. and can even, rarely, spike. I'm pretty sure they have similar range, power and startup lag. Zelda's just can lead to a lot more.

Ness' should be top 10. Lucas' dair is definitely better than Zelda's. As a spike, Zelda's is better. But in everything else, Lucas' is better.

I'd place the weaker of ZSS' and Sheik's dair at worse.

but lucas's isn't really that great at anything. anyway. Sheik's doesn't spike and is slower, but it's also more surviveable. ZSS's has an additional hitbox upon landing, sheik's does not. Anyhow, Iceclimbers causes them to fall as well, but it seems to have worse range, power and priority than sheik's but is otherwise comparable.

lol, IC is the worst by far.

it's really not as bad as zelda's. they have awful grab range, but the only reason that they DON'T land grabs more than zelda does is becuase people are so affraid of letting the IC's grab them. compare startup lag and overall range and you'll be surprised how bad zelda's is

Overall Snake's is better.

*shrug* matter of opinion. Snake's is good in every matchup. sheik's is never BAD, but in some matchups, it's incredible.

I agree with a higher placement, but your reasoning isn't correct. Captain Falcon's best move is his jab. That's no reason to place it above Ike's though.

well I thought it should be a given that that should merit SOMETHING since jigglypuff's Bair made it in for some reason and yet her fair did not. especially since jiggly is one of the best aerialists in the game, and her best move isn't making it in.

lol, I'd rather have bananas.

banana's are great, but Zelda and Sheik have the ability to become entirely different characters which allows them to counter-counterpick or tag team to cover weaknesses and ignore stale moves. IT's the best in the game bar none, and it's not even showing up as top 10

 

[doom dragon 105]

Marth not in the best smash list

Fox trotting helps it alot, quick and deadly, can be chained into I mean it's better than

Ike's ftilt isn't so great I would say someones else s is better, ummm idk it;s not bad but not top ten in the game

 

[DanGR]

the strongest upair in the game, that has completely unparalleled priority (outprioritizes anything and doesn't clank) has better range than any other Uair or Dair that it would ever be facing. and it's not even top ten. explain that.

Ganon's uptilt fits your description.

Rob's pokes, Zelda's wracks up damage by catching AND combos into KO moves, and trips enemies. and can even, rarely, spike. I'm pretty sure they have similar range, power and startup lag. Zelda's just can lead to a lot more.

Rob's pokes better because it's considerably faster with much more range. It combos into Rob's attacks as well because it trips. It also dtilt locks fallen opponents.

but lucas's isn't really that great at anything. anyway.

Lucas' dair combos into a dtilt lock at semi-high percents. It's great shield pressure, it's disjointed, and rather quick. It lasts a long time and it spikes. The spike is just an extra. It's not what makes it good.

it's really not as bad as zelda's. they have awful grab range, but the only reason that they DON'T land grabs more than zelda does is becuase people are so affraid of letting the IC's grab them. compare startup lag and overall range and you'll be surprised how bad zelda's is

Zelda's standing grab has farther range, is disjointed, and has the same duration. The frame difference between the two ICs makes their shieldgrab the worst. Zelda's grab is slightly slower though.

I guess it's preference.

 

[LordWeasel]

Going by that logic, shouldn't PT be up there too? 3 options opposed to 2.

Also, way to rally a bunch of moves for ur main

 

[Gindler]

About the transformations...read the first post. It clearly says it isn't including transformations.....

Oh, worst downB=MK
and worst roll= G&W (Ever notice how Gdubs never roll? there's a reason for that)

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Seems silly not too put them in. count Zelda/Sheik as one person and it takes up one spot

@ LordWeasle: no. the 3 pokemon are not the same as Zelda and sheik.

Zelda and Sheik have MUCH more freedom in when and where they can transform,

they keep invincibility if they transform after a stock loss,

they can transform in midair

they can "jump transform" or "Glide Transform" which are techniqes that allow them to be moving vertically or horizontally while transforming so as to be unable to be punished while transforming.

due to less cooldown animation, Zelda/sheik's transform is generally less punishable even if it is done in a dangerous area

Zelda and Sheik have viable strategies which involve them tag teaming to alternatively wrack up damage and KO, or coast.

Zelda or Sheik have the ability to REMAIN counterpicked the whole match, PT is forcibly reswapped out, and the desired transformation may require TWO down+Bs to bring out which is normally a very bad thing.

Fatigu on PT can FORCE a down+B or risk self gimping. Zelda and sheik can transform at their leisure or not with no pressure.

Final point: when PT mains transform, it's normally to avoid an inherently bad matchup and oftentimes they don't mind sacrificing a hit because it'll keep them safer. Zelda/Sheik transformations can be used to avoid bad or improve an already decent matchup and are also generally unpunished. There's no doubt which transform is the better move.


And I'm not "rallying moves for my main" in any sense besides the fact that I'm familiar with my main and so that's why I'm correcting mistakes I see with her moves' placements. why would I start spouting stuff off about other charcters that I'm less sure about?

Ganon's uptilt fits your description.

except for the fact that ganon's uptilt is so slow a dead moose could avoid it. Zelda's uair isn't slow. it's not fast, but it's reasonable enough that it actually tends to hit.... unlike ganon's uptilt

Rob's pokes better because it's considerably faster with much more range. It combos into Rob's attacks as well because it trips. It also dtilt locks fallen opponents.

it doesn't combo as well or into as good of moves. I know that much. it also doesn't lock as well or as long. it's got lower cooldown I think. it's not MUCH faster, it might be faster, but not by a lot.

Zelda's standing grab has farther range, is disjointed, and has the same duration. The frame difference between the two ICs makes their shieldgrab the worst. Zelda's grab is slightly slower though.

I guess it's preference.

yeah. but the speed of zelda's is bad enough that prtty much ANYONE can smack her before she can get it off OoS

 

[Flayl]

Metaknight does not have the worst DownB: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZO1Pjlb2PXg

As someone mentioned earlier, Samus does.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Metaknight does not have the worst DownB: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZO1Pjlb2PXg

As someone mentioned earlier, Samus does.

Samus's is weak and such, making it awful for attack purposes, but it adds a great amount of versitility and freedom to returning to the stage because of how much it lets her sall her falling or recovering.

Pit's mirror sheild might be considered a bad down+B because he can already reflect with angel ring, making mirror sheild less oft, seen. of course that same logic would say sonic has a terrible down+B because of the existance of his side+B. Lucario and DDD are some people who's down+Bs I always find completely nothereatening to face. they rarely, if ever, connect. Lucario's doesn't counter until late and is quite vulnerable (like ike's I guess) and DDD's isn't strong uncharged and is always really slow and, thusly, normally easy to avoid

And I think MK's is worse than samus's. it has very limited applications.

 

[B0mbe1c]

Except for the fact that a use got BANNED, yeah MKs is worse. <______<
Samus' Down B is good near the edge when people are going for it, because it can hit them before they grab the edge, or after the Invincibility frames run out. It can lead to bair stage spikes or her meteor. :D

 

[Flayl]

Except for the fact that a use got BANNED, yeah MKs is worse. <______<

I think you need to go check the video again...

 

[viparagon]

I think you need to go check the video again...

I think you all need to check the notice at the beggining of the thread

 

[Flayl]

I think you all need to check the notice at the beggining of the thread

... You made the same mistake he did.