Metaknight iz zo brokn!!!!!!!!!!!!

[viparagon]

viparagon if you do the bold thing again im not responding to your posts. Its much too tie consuming for me.



It means making a response to my argument that has nothing to do with what I stated.

SA frames are sexy though.


I responded to it. Again address my argument.


Lucario's will use the Fsmash so that if you roll you won't get behind them.
Which means you sill get jabbed. this argument can be made for EVERY smash on this list you made.

Thank you for disproving my statement.

Read my edit. Failure.


really now? marth, Mk Fairs, you eat the Fair.
sonic Bairs, you eat the move. DK Bairs, you eat the move. Moves with range>Pit's Fsmash.

It doesn't stop alot of approaches.


ten percent rule means it being disjointed doesn't mean crap
nice fail.

srry, I can't multipost for ****.

see my response to mister e. I said you can roll if they dont space properly. fast characters can punish the startup with a dash attack. if you shield, no one is better off. thanks for listing those fair, which basically NOTHING STOPS save a shield. it was a minor point, but it remais that it works better on SH approaches than any u listed. SA frames are sexy, but so is 19 damage and more range and less cooldown

What's sad is that this post of yours proves you care more about your views than the views of the community.

Your poll is stupid. People PM'ing you? ****, ask a moderator if and how you can create an actual poll.

SRRY, i'll change the list if peeps bring up better points. I conceded u and shadowlink the lasers over the arrows. yes, I am biased towards my own views, but who isn't? I'm not completely stubborn and i find it humorous that both u and shadowlink have seemingly stopped arguing.

My poll is stupid? LOL this way people can give a list, and I only get responses from people who care enough to give them

 

[cj.Shark]

i havent not been fallowing much debates and i am still undecided on the f-smash list but i decided to post here some information out pits f-smash
Pits f-smash CANNOT be shieldgrabbed In between the two hits. the second hit comes out too fast for you to grab inbetween since grabs generally have a 5or 6 frames (nor can you jab!). also. It can be powershielded. however the fact that is is a double hit move makes it so you would have to powershield both hits before you can grab etc. if you dont, pits 2nd hit will knock you out of range. however there is a simple counter to this and it is simply spotdodge. it is pits best punisher as it does 19% fresh (2% away from snakes f-tilt!) and it is also good for catching spotdodgers. but saying it is the best f-smash in the game. well imo lucario's is better.

 

[cj.Shark]

Btw people cannot create polls unless they are a donater to the boards. VIP pass i believe

 

[ShadowLink84]

srry, I can't multipost for ****.

Copy and paste.

see my response to mister e.

That addresses nothing that I said.

I said you can roll if they dont space properly.

This is the same for ANY attack.

fast characters can punish the startup with a dash attack. if you shield,

Read what i stated.

pit's shildstun is poor and there is plenty of frames to punish with a grab.

no one is better off. thanks for listing those fair, which basically NOTHING STOPS save a shield.

I also listed Bairs k thxbai.

it was a minor point, but it remais that it works better on SH approaches than any u listed.

No it doesn't dude. I can SH approach you all day because my range is that much greater than your Fsmash.
hell that argument can go for Sonic's Fsmash which has much better range and can be tilted up and is disjointed.



SRRY, i'll change the list if peeps bring up better points. I conceded u and shadowlink the lasers over the arrows. yes, I am biased towards my own views, but who isn't? I'm not completely stubborn and i find it humorous that both u and shadowlink have seemingly stopped arguing.

My poll is stupid? LOL this way people can give a list, and I only get responses from people who care enough to give them[/QUOTE]

 

[ShadowLink84]

i havent not been fallowing much debates and i am still undecided on the f-smash list but i decided to post here some information out pits f-smash
Pits f-smash CANNOT be shieldgrabbed In between the two hits. the second hit comes out too fast for you to grab inbetween since grabs generally have a 5or 6 frames (nor can you jab!). also. It can be powershielded. however the fact that is is a double hit move makes it so you would have to powershield both hits before you can grab etc. if you dont, pits 2nd hit will knock you out of range. however there is a simple counter to this and it is simply spotdodge. it is pits best punisher as it does 19% fresh (2% away from snakes f-tilt!) and it is also good for catching spotdodgers. but saying it is the best f-smash in the game. well imo lucario's is better.

Its being grabbed AFTEr the second hit not in between.

 

[viparagon]

i havent not been fallowing much debates and i am still undecided on the f-smash list but i decided to post here some information out pits f-smash
Pits f-smash CANNOT be shieldgrabbed In between the two hits. the second hit comes out too fast for you to grab inbetween since grabs generally have a 5or 6 frames (nor can you jab!). also. It can be powershielded. however the fact that is is a double hit move makes it so you would have to powershield both hits before you can grab etc. if you dont, pits 2nd hit will knock you out of range. however there is a simple counter to this and it is simply spotdodge. it is pits best punisher as it does 19% fresh (2% away from snakes f-tilt!) and it is also good for catching spotdodgers. but saying it is the best f-smash in the game. well imo lucario's is better.

thank you. I believe lucario's would be slightly better, if it wasn't for angelic step.

 

[ShadowLink84]

thank you. I believe lucario's would be slightly better, if it wasn't for angelic step.

Angelic step does NOT remove the zoning issue. -_-

I ftilt, you dodge lie a fool and get hit by an ftilt as you attempt to smash.
you're basically just doing the exact same thing else someone can do. punishing a stupid move with a smash.

You're adding 22+ frames to a 5 frame smash attack. Thats nothing since the same thing can be done by other characters without spot dodging.
hell pit can do it without angelic step

 

[viparagon]

Copy and paste.

That addresses nothing that I said.

This is the same for ANY attack.
Read what i stated.

pit's shildstun is poor and there is plenty of frames to punish with a grab.


I also listed Bairs k thxbai.

No it doesn't dude. I can SH approach you all day because my range is that much greater than your Fsmash.
hell that argument can go for Sonic's Fsmash which has much better range and can be tilted up and is disjointed.



SRRY, i'll change the list if peeps bring up better points. I conceded u and shadowlink the lasers over the arrows. yes, I am biased towards my own views, but who isn't? I'm not completely stubborn and i find it humorous that both u and shadowlink have seemingly stopped arguing.

My poll is stupid? LOL this way people can give a list, and I only get responses from people who care enough to give them

[/QUOTE]

still don't get what you mean... are you just copypasting the quote tags?

WOW YOU LISTED BAIRS? AMAZING!

I addressed what u said about perfect shielding both hits.

For my SHing thing, Al I meant was that it does a better job punishing than most of the other fsmashes u mentioned. U keep on dodging my main points, too. Sonics Fsmash DOES NOT HAVE BETTER RANGE AT ALL, much less "MUCH LESS" range (lol). pits shieldstun is actually quite good iirc, but aren't we both pulling shieldstun data out of our arse?

 

[M15t3R E]

The fact that Pit's f-smash has poor range is reason enough for it NOT to be #1.
Marth and Lucario have better ranged and stronger f-smashes. They are slightly slower but can catch opponents off-guard with good spacing. Pit's f-smash can be used when most of the time grabbing would be just as good.
So it's pointless unless used as a killing move. Then again, even as a kill move it can get really predictable really fast.

 

[viparagon]

Angelic step does NOT remove the zoning issue. -_-

I ftilt, you dodge lie a fool and get hit by an ftilt as you attempt to smash.
you're basically just doing the exact same thing else someone can do. punishing a stupid move with a smash.

You're adding 22+ frames to a 5 frame smash attack. Thats nothing since the same thing can be done by other characters without spot dodging.
hell pit can do it without angelic step

it allows pit to flit into his opponents range. he can dodge dks smash with the spot dodge, then travel FURTHER than its range and immediately fsmashed as seen in that combo vid.

 

[ShadowLink84]

still don't get what you mean... are you just copypasting the quote tags?

WOW YOU LISTED BAIRS? AMAZING!

And you still see fit to ignore teh fact that the range of an aerial greater than pit's Fsmash results in pit being hit.
i cannot see how you ignored this point more than three times

I addressed what u said about perfect shielding both hits.

Address the other points made as well please. Nor is perfect shielding hard to perform.

For my SHing thing, Al I meant was that it does a better job punishing than most of the other fsmashes u mentioned. U keep on dodging my main points, too.

I responded to all our points.

Sonics Fsmash DOES NOT HAVE BETTER RANGE AT ALL, much less "MUCH LESS" range (lol).

*facepalm*
The range on Sonic's Fsmash is greater than Pit's Fsmash. Even if you ignore the disjoints around Sonic's fist his range is still greater than pit's.
its been tested, proven, and youre just blatantly ignoring it

pits shieldstun is actually quite good iirc, but aren't we both pulling shieldstun data out of our arse?

Speak for yourself.
The amount of shieldstun from Pit's Fsmash is POOR.

 

[viparagon]

The fact that Pit's f-smash has poor range is reason enough for it NOT to be #1.
Marth and Lucario have better ranged and stronger f-smashes. They are slightly slower but can catch opponents off-guard with good spacing. Pit's f-smash can be used when most of the time grabbing would be just as good.
So it's pointless unless used as a killing move.

LOL at more fail from u.
so your arguing a move is bad because it doesn't have range??? lol look at dancing blade! the two attacks are quite similar if you look closely at them. How does good spacing help them catch people off gaurd? it doesn't slow down the 22 frames. (barely slower than Ike fsmash -.-

 

[viparagon]

And you still see fit to ignore teh fact that the range of an aerial greater than pit's Fsmash results in pit being hit.

i never denied it, just said the hitbox os better than other attacks.
i cannot see how you ignored this point more than three times


Address the other points made as well please. Nor is perfect shielding hard to perform.

I responded to all our points.
no you didn't like how pits is superior to all tof the other fsmashes in the top 5


*facepalm*
The range on Sonic's Fsmash is greater than Pit's Fsmash. Even if you ignore the disjoints around Sonic's fist his range is still greater than pit's.
its been tested, proven, and youre just blatantly ignoring it

Speak for yourself.
The amount of shieldstun from Pit's Fsmash is POOR.
please enlighten me as to where you are getting these factoids, maybe?

yeah, w/e if your too lazy to respond so be it.

 

[ShadowLink84]

LOL at more fail from u.
so your arguing a move is bad because it doesn't have range??? lol look at dancing blade!

Dancing blade has better range actually.
marginally.
Oh and it can't be DI'ed out of.
Oh and its faster since you don't have to use the second hit.

the two attacks are quite similar if you look closely at them. How does good spacing help them catch people off gaurd? it doesn't slow down the 22 frames. (barely slower than Ike fsmash -.-

The attack is 22frames before the hitbox comes out. Since Lucario's Fsmash range is MASSIVE, the margin of error for Lucario is much greater.
Not many characters can cover that distance and then attack within 22 frames safely.

Viparagon I am not addressing the rest of your posts since you are so mentally incapable of hitting CTRL+C at the start of a new paragraph. Let alone you haven't addressed anything. All you do is keeping stating your opinion repeatedly without disproving what has been stated. That shows you are incapable of disproving the claims and proving your argument,thus making your argument null.

I can care less about your opinion since fact says otherwise.

 

[M15t3R E]

Dancing blade isn't used the same was Pit's f-smash is used. Pit's f-smash is meant to be a finisher of his.
I understand that you feel Pit has the best f-smash because it hits twice. You are not recognizing that it can be just as predictable as any other f-smash nor are you recognizing that its poor range limits its uses.
EDIT: What about Link and Toon Link's f-smashes? Don't they also hit twice? They also have better range and more power than Pit's f-smash.

 

[viparagon]

Dancing blade has better range actually.
marginally.
Oh and it can't be DI'ed out of.
Oh and its faster since you don't have to use the second hit.


The attack is 22frames before the hitbox comes out. Since Lucario's Fsmash range is MASSIVE, the margin of error for Lucario is much greater.
Not many characters can cover that distance and then attack within 22 frames safely.

Viparagon I am not addressing the rest of your posts since you are so mentally incapable of hitting CTRL+C at the start of a new paragraph. Let alone you haven't addressed anything. All you do is keeping stating your opinion repeatedly without disproving what has been stated. That shows you are incapable of disproving the claims and proving your argument,thus making your argument null.

I can care less about your opinion since fact says otherwise.

I've addressed everything you said, and I don't deny that lucario's is hard to punish. go back and read my statement about DI, and how it can hurt a character. seriously, tho, where are you getting your factiods? at least answer me that!

My point about the startup is that it can almost never be used as a punisher, which is pits primary use. furthermore, i hold that PSing lucarios fsmash is easier than diing pits, leaving room for punishiment in the noticab;e startup lag.

and alot of characters can cover distance quickly. also, whats to stop them from jumping?

w/e Its 1 oclock, i need sleep ;}

 

[cj.Shark]

Its being grabbed AFTEr the second hit not in between.

i guess you just skimmed through my post but i will explain by this is hard to do.
Pits f-smash is a double hit move. the 2nd attack knocked shiels away pretty well. the issue with pshielding is that because it is a dual hit move you must powershield the 2nd one (the first has lame knockback). however this is hard as u must either ..shield the first powershield 2nd. or powershield both. a normal shield will not work vs pits 2nd f-smash attack. typically you have to be twice as good as a normal powershield to pshield both. making it well pretty hard.

 

[cj.Shark]

I understand that you feel Pit has the best f-smash because it hits twice. You are not recognizing that it can be just as predictable as any other f-smash nor are you recognizing that its poor range limits its uses.
EDIT: What about Link and Toon Link's f-smashes? Don't they also hit twice? They also have better range and more power than Pit's f-smash.

too bad they have high cooldown come out slow and are easily shieldgrabbed because of the thrust they do when preforming the move. thoose are basic reasons why both of their f-smashes suck.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I've addressed everything you said, and I don't deny that lucario's is hard to punish. go back and read my statement about DI, and how it can hurt a character. seriously, tho, where are you getting your factiods? at least answer me that!

Capture card+60 frame slow down.
Simple as that.

My point about the startup is that it can almost never be used as a punisher, which is pits primary use. furthermore, i hold that PSing lucarios fsmash is easier than diing pits, leaving room for punishiment in the noticable startup lag.

It is easier, but the issue is that again, the range from Lucari's fsmash really aids in this. when pit gets Poowershiedled he WILL get punished.
When Lucario gets powershielded, he doesn't get punished as easily because of his icnredible range. its liek trying to punish Snake's utilt with a smash attack

and alot of characters can cover distance quickly. also, whats to stop them from jumping?

not alot of characters. Not even Sonic can punish Lucario with a dash shield grab after shielding Lucario's Fsmash. Thats how much of a difference range makes in his case.
yeah he is slower than pit's Fsmash, but he is much safer.

w/e Its 1 oclock, i need sleep ;}

Same

i guess you just skimmed through my post but i will explain by this is hard to do.[/uote]
Sorry about that, I was writing a paper at the same time so i've been rather brisk.

Pits f-smash is a double hit move. the 2nd attack knocked shiels away pretty well. the issue with pshielding is that because it is a dual hit move you must powershield the 2nd one (the first has lame knockback). however this is hard as u must either ..shield the first powershield 2nd. or powershield both. a normal shield will not work vs pits 2nd f-smash attack. typically you have to be twice as good as a normal powershield to pshield both. making it well pretty hard.

not true. Powershielding cuts down shield dropping time to 0.
This allows you to powersield Pi's second part of the Fsmash easily especially because Pit does suffer some hit dela after striking the shield.

This is similar to powersihelding norfair's lava hits it isn't hard to perform at all.
And again because of the range, the margin of error for pit is smaller since shield stun is small and the opponent has an easier time reacting and attacking Pit.

too bad they have high cooldown come out slow and are easily shieldgrabbed because of the thrust they do when preforming the move. thoose are basic reasons why both of their f-smashes suck.

Better than a number of other characters.
TL's is actually worse since you can DI the first hit and shield the second hit =(

 

[cj.Shark]

i guess you just skimmed through my post but i will explain by this is hard to do.[/uote]
Sorry about that, I was writing a paper at the same time so i've been rather brisk.


not true. Powershielding cuts down shield dropping time to 0.
This allows you to powersield Pi's second part of the Fsmash easily especially because Pit does suffer some hit dela after striking the shield.

This is similar to powersihelding norfair's lava hits it isn't hard to perform at all.
And again because of the range, the margin of error for pit is smaller since shield stun is small and the opponent has an easier time reacting and attacking Pit.



Better than a number of other characters.
TL's is actually worse since you can DI the first hit and shield the second hit =(

yes but you would need perfectly powershield both hits for that to work. although i may seem this is hard i guess that is just opinion. heres a fact though. the fact that the opponent needs to p-shield twice instantly makes it mucher safer on close distances than say warios.
but alas i have not been fallowing this thread and i do not wish to. i am here to make sure that people dont spread untrue statements about my character.

 

[M15t3R E]

Lucario's and Marth's f-smashes are both better. Their great range makes up for the fact that they are a bit slower than Pit's f-smash. Then Pit's has practically zero knockback and terrible range. I'm not even sure if Pit's deserves to be in the top 10.

 

[ShadowLink84]

yes but you would need perfectly powershield both hits for that to work. although i may seem this is hard i guess that is just opinion. heres a fact though. the fact that the opponent needs to p-shield twice instantly makes it mucher safer on close distances than say warios.
but alas i have not been fallowing this thread and i do not wish to. i am here to make sure that people dont spread untrue statements about my character.

Agreed.
I do think Pits Fsmash is int he top ten, but I do believe that it isn't number 1 as is insisted.

 

[Kitamerby]

Lucario's Double Team kills at around 80 at the cap, is Lucario's third most powerful kill move overall, can be used to punish predictable killers, can AID RECOVERY, etc.

It is far from the worst Down B move. Jet Hammer says "Hi."


Lucas has the best fsmash imo, followed by Wario, Lucario, DK, Kirby, imo.

 

[viparagon]

http://www.smashbros.com/en_us/characters/hidden06.html
scroll down to the first picture under "tips" are you telling me that link couldn't run and DA in lucario's fsmash's startup time? If not, couldn't he perfect shield the attack and simply grab or smash to counter? It sure as hell is easier than perfect sheilding BOTH hits of pits (which I've never seen IRL or in any video ever and I'm guessing you never have too)

 

[viparagon]

Lucario's Double Team kills at around 80 at the cap, is Lucario's third most powerful kill move overall, can be used to punish predictable killers, can AID RECOVERY, etc.

It is far from the worst Down B move. Jet Hammer says "Hi."


Lucas has the best fsmash imo, followed by Wario, Lucario, DK, Kirby, imo.

Dedede's jet hammer killls at around 80 percent, is d3's third most powerful kill move overall, can be used to punish predictable recoverys, can AID RECOVERY, etc.

double team says "hi".

I really don't like that list too much. I can understand pit not as first, but to put him below all those mentioned is ridiculous.

EDIT: OH CRAP SORRY FOR DOUBLE POST!

 

[Kitamerby]

Dedede's jet hammer killls at around 80 percent, is d3's third most powerful kill move overall, can be used to punish predictable recoverys, can AID RECOVERY, etc.

double team says "hi".!

....What the hell are you smoking, and where can I get some?

Also, Pit's Fsmash, while fast, sucks as a killer compared to the other 5. DK's kills retardedly low, while having more range than Lucario's. Lucario's has no ending lag, a massive disjoint, as well as potentially very high kill power. Kirby's has more power than Pit's by far, and is nearly as fast, although it has MORE range! Wario's Fsmash is only 1 frame slower than Pit's, but it has super armor and immense kill power.

Pit's hits twice, and comes out on frame 8, with average kill power, all the while being completely outclassed in kill power by his backward aerial.

 

[B0mbe1c]

I honestly don't see why Pit is still #1. There are many more FSmashes that are better than Pits.
OMG BOWSAHS FSMASH HITS TWICE LETS MAEK IT NUMBA 1. =/

 

[viparagon]

you win, tho I still think pit's s the best

(wow this thread will probably leave frontpag now)

 

[PKNintendo]

rob's and pits allows them to chase a recovery themselves instead of with a lousy projectile that can be canceled out by almost any attack and usually aides recovery. pkt2 doesn't work on people who aren't idiots, and it sucks as a recovery

All credibly gone my ***.

Your list lost credibility when Lucas down B was 3rd best.
J/K.

u forgot that its slower and has zero range, and marios IS more powerful than that

Mario Uair stronger than Ness? It is not.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-N6P3kM94I
This is PKT in it's essence. It's not lousy. Pit bair doesn't have much more range, it's sweetspot is terrible and it's not much stronger, get YOUR facts straight Gayuk!

Ness nair is all purpose, offensive and defensive. It can be used twice in a SH too just so you know.


Once Wario's Down B moves up, (and neutral B, the bite is amazing!)
Move Mario's utilt to the top of of it's tier, and Lucas down B moves down I will be happy with my pseudo secondaries.

How again do I lose credibility?

Look, the list in essence is fine, but some things are off...

 

[TLMSheikant]

This list is very inaccurate.

 

[Ussi]

5. G&W
6.peach
7.link
8.charizard
9.marth
10.ICs

How are those usmashes better than Ike's? His has the biggest hitbox coverage for any usmash there is and has a lingering hit box behind him during the move. Not only that, it has 20 IASA frames! Link's Usmash can be DI'd out and Charizard's too half the time. I know Peach's and G&W's are stronger, but still, it's a small hitbox. G&W can tech chase with dthrow, but thats only on light weights. Ike's usmash can be used defensively and for killing. And it also reduces Ike's hurtbox by half, Ike can actually duck under moves doing usmash.

 

[ColinJF]

Here is a high resolution image of the best up special:

Ness is also a contender for best up throw.

 

[rinoH]

bair for pikachu is not the worst

 

[illinialex24]

The thread for the petition got locked....

 

[viparagon]

All credibly gone my ***.

Your list lost credibility when Lucas down B was 3rd best.
J/K.

u forgot that its slower and has zero range, and marios IS more powerful than that

Mario Uair stronger than Ness? It is not.
you said wario's..., maybe there was a typo?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-N6P3kM94I
it doesn't show ness recovering tho... I used to main ness, so i can honestly saay its a peice of crap
This is PKT in it's essence. It's not lousy. Pit bair doesn't have much more range, it's sweetspot is terrible and it's not much stronger, get YOUR facts straight Gayuk!
pits bair kills at 110 (as opposed to 150-.-, )can GOOD,disjointed,
Ness nair is all purpose, offensive and defensive. It can be used twice in a SH too just so you know.
yes, i know, but once again, it doesn't have as much range or use as ike's, it also has no range.

Once Wario's Down B moves up, (and neutral B, the bite is amazing!)
Move Mario's utilt to the top of of it's tier, and Lucas down B moves down I will be happy with my pseudo secondaries.
you lost credibility when u said mario's utlit is better than snakes, fox's, kirby's.
How again do I lose credibility?


Look, the list in essence is fine, but some things are off...

commentz in bold

 

[viparagon]

5. G&W
6.peach
7.link
8.charizard
9.marth
10.ICs

How are those usmashes better than Ike's? His has the biggest hitbox coverage for any usmash there is and has a lingering hit box behind him during the move. Not only that, it has 20 IASA frames! Link's Usmash can be DI'd out and Charizard's too half the time. I know Peach's and G&W's are stronger, but still, it's a small hitbox. G&W can tech chase with dthrow, but thats only on light weights. Ike's usmash can be used defensively and for killing. And it also reduces Ike's hurtbox by half, Ike can actually duck under moves doing usmash.

took note, and i'll put it in in ICs stead. Links has a good, "lingering" hitbox and is essential to his approach, Ike's is telegraphed, but still good.


DAMMIT ANOTHER DOUBLE POST!-.-
oh yeah, i saw... never fear, its on the list anyway.

Here is a high resolution image of the best up special:
that's what i'm talking about...

Ness is also a contender for best up throw.
??? how????

bair for pikachu is not the worst

thats what I said until a pikachu main nominated it in bowser's stead...

 

[Kitamerby]

bair for pikachu is not the worst

Whose is worse?

I can't think of anyone else with a worse Bair. <<

 

[Ussi]

took note, and i'll put it in in ICs stead. Links has a good, "lingering" hitbox and is essential to his approach, Ike's is telegraphed, but still good.

Its not a lingering hitbox. It's a multi hit move. Multi hit moves are easily DI'd out of. Link's Usmash is much more unsafe when missed than Ike's. Ike has sexy IASA frames reducing Usmash's lag by 20 frames. Ike's usmash my be easy to see coming, but it has such a WIDE coverage, that when someone is coming down to the stage, what are they gonna do? Most Ike's will bait the air dodge and since Usmash is a lingering hitbox and LONG ranged, it works well.

Ike actually does something called a reverse usmash, making you reverse the direction of your usmash, because the back has more range. If they roll behind you, they get hit, if they spot dodge, they get hit.

Marth's usmash is crap, very very unsafe and leaves him open.

 

[viparagon]

Its not a lingering hitbox. It's a multi hit move. Multi hit moves are easily DI'd out of. Link's Usmash is much more unsafe when missed than Ike's. Ike has sexy IASA frames reducing Usmash's lag by 20 frames. Ike's usmash my be easy to see coming, but it has such a WIDE coverage, that when someone is coming down to the stage, what are they gonna do? Most Ike's will bait the air dodge and since Usmash is a lingering hitbox and LONG ranged, it works well.

Ike actually does something called a reverse usmash, making you reverse the direction of your usmash, because the back has more range. If they roll behind you, they get hit, if they spot dodge, they get hit.

Marth's usmash is crap, very very unsafe and leaves him open.

lingering is in quotes for a reason, duh

links is still much faster, and is VERY useful for approach with his DACUS. marth can easily bait an airdodge with his uair, then follow up with his VERY powerful usmash. it outranges almost anything above him at anyrate.

I'll move it up, tho

 

[illinialex24]

Viparon, Jigglypuff definitely should make the list for bair but the petition got removed. I might just PM everybody and try to get her on a separate website list.