Metaknight iz zo brokn!!!!!!!!!!!!

[viparagon]

YES!!!!!

yeah, alot of moves like jigg bair and wario's fair and dair NEED the acceleration, and its not like the move and the characters air speed ever won't be paired up

 

[illinialex24]

yeah, alot of moves like jigg bair and wario's fair and dair NEED the acceleration, and its not like the move and the characters air speed ever won't be paired up

Unless hacking becomes commonplace in tournaments. And yeah.

 

[viparagon]

I'm going to leave pit's fsmash at No. 1. if I Don't get any responses for the poll...

 

[illinialex24]

I'm going to leave pit's fsmash at No. 1. if I Don't get any responses for the poll...

I dunno, Lucario's F-smash is like a WALL. And pit's can be attacked through, while Lucario's is fast and really can't be punished that easily. But Pit's is less easily punished.

 

[illinialex24]

Oh yeah and make a new category. Boost smashes.

 

[Snowstalker]

Yoshi's down B isn't a very good move, but I'm not sure it's the worst down B in the game.

 

[XienZo]

I'm going to leave pit's fsmash at No. 1. if I Don't get any responses for the poll...

I don't think people are going to PM for a poll. Especially since less than like 10 people frequent this thread.

 

[illinialex24]

Yoshi's down B isn't a very good move, but I'm not sure it's the worst down B in the game.

It can't be. I mean use it in the air and its less easily punished than Bowsers but it still kills pretty well.

 

[viparagon]

Yoshi's down B isn't a very good move, but I'm not sure it's the worst down B in the game.

yea, me too, its certainly not useless, but I struggle to think of a worser move...

It can't be. I mean use it in the air and its less easily punished than Bowsers but it still kills pretty well.

BOWSERS COMBOS on all but one character when used on the ground tho, and all the lag is cancelled if you grab the edge

 

[illinialex24]

yea, me too, its certainly not useless, but I struggle to think of a better move...

How about Bowser's B-down. How about Sonic's. Does almost nothing that B-side doesn't.

 

[Snowstalker]

Yeah, Yoshi's down B is a much faster, less punishable move.

 

[XienZo]

Lucario's down B is useless. Whats the point of a counter if it always does the same damage, can be SHIELDED and PUNISHED consistantly when it WORKS, and if it always misses and kills you when used in midair?

Not to mention you just sit there way longer than the other counters if you miss.

 

[viparagon]

How about Bowser's B-down. How about Sonic's. Does almost nothing that B-side doesn't.

I like the lack of a hop...

Lucario's down B is useless. Whats the point of a counter if it always does the same damage, can be SHIELDED and PUNISHED consistantly when it WORKS, and if it always misses and kills you when used in midair?

Not to mention you just sit there way longer than the other counters if you miss.

WE HAVE A WINNER!

 

[illinialex24]

Lucario's down B is useless. Whats the point of a counter if it always does the same damage, can be SHIELDED and PUNISHED consistantly when it WORKS, and if it always misses and kills you when used in midair?

Not to mention you just sit there way longer than the other counters if you miss.

Wow I didn't even think about that. But it does kill a lot earlier than other counters. But still fairly worthless.

So I would say its between:
Sonic
Bowser
and Lucario

I vote Lucario.

 

[ShadowLink84]

How about Bowser's B-down. How about Sonic's. Does almost nothing that B-side doesn't.

you're dumb. Don't speak if you don't understand the difference between the two.

Down B allows for an ASC combo of 27%-43%.
Unlike the side B you can wait it out so that it stops.
It also charges up faster so it has less start up.
It also has a number of applications.


Its far from being among bad. -_-

 

[Snowstalker]

Yeah, Lucario. At least Bowser's is a nice anti-n00b move.

 

[illinialex24]

you're dumb. Don't speak if you don't understand the difference between the two.

Down B allows for an ASC combo of 27%-43%.
Unlike the side B you can wait it out so that it stops.
It also charges up faster so it has less start up.
It also has a number of applications.


Its far from being among bad. -_-

I know there are differences wow. The thing is that they are both similar and so they are somewhat redundant.

 

[viparagon]

I know there are differences wow. The thing is that they are both similar and so they are somewhat redundant.

still, u could say the same thing for sideb, so I'm going to count them independant of the moveset

 

[illinialex24]

still, u could say the same thing for sideb, so I'm going to count them independant of the moveset

Yeah, thats true. If so, then Sonic's B-down is definitely not worst.

 

[LordWeasel]

>.<
Take 3
Ivysaur's neutral B!??!

 

[M15t3R E]

Viparagon- you're being VERY stubborn. Pit's f-smash really isn't that good.
It lacks range and strength, and is still moderately punishable. Might not even be in top 10.

Also, Bowser's bair is FAR from the worst as it's a powerful edgeguarding tool. And ROB's nair is strong but very slow and is beaten in priority by nairs from MK, Pikachu, Marth, and several others.

 

[viparagon]

>.<
Take 3
Ivysaur's neutral B!??!

Srry for not getting back to you!
The problemlies in that the FIRST hit that sets them up for the bullet seed can be DI'd+you'll eat smash if you miss+there are alot of good b moves

 

[viparagon]

Viparagon- you're being VERY stubborn. Pit's f-smash really isn't that good.
It lacks range and strength, and is still moderately punishable. Might not even be in top 10.

Also, Bowser's bair is FAR from the worst.

oooh, time for a debate! everyone else seems relatively satisfied with its position. If you want to change it so badly, try participating in the "poll". For bair I was thinking either lucas or bowser, but what do you think? pikachu?

 

[M15t3R E]

oooh, time for a debate! everyone else seems relatively satisfied with its position. If you want to change it so badly, try participating in the "poll". For bair I was thinking either lucas or bowser, but what do you think? pikachu?

First, learn to use the edit button.
Okay now about your response- that's not true. Others such as ShadowLink and Kitamerby have argued with you about your placing of Pit as #1 in f-smashes. Not just me. I didn't see that poll thing you have going on. Are you not able to make real polls?
And I suppose you could say Pikachu has the worst bair, it's pretty bad.
Also, I said something about nairs if you look above.

 

[viparagon]

First, learn to use the edit button.
Okay now about your response- that's not true. Others such as ShadowLink and Kitamerby have argued with you about your placing of Pit as #1 in f-smashes. Not just me.
And I suppose you could say Pikachu has the worst bair, it's pretty bad.
Also, I said something about nairs if you look above.

Yeah, sorry: wasn't thinking then the deed is done. Kitamerby never argued for anyone else, and shadowlink was honestly arguing DK. r u sure about the bair? raving pikachu mains won't swarm and attack me?

its been in the title for a while now, and on the first page... Yeah, either I'm not allowed to make polls or know one so far knows how to do it,,,

LOL edit conversation

robs nair has range (priority) over those mentioned, not to mention how hard it is too punish and its insane power

 

[M15t3R E]

Too many people to count have argued with you on Pit's f-smash. Just on the first page there are at least a few who argue it.
I suppose that's why you are making the poll, after all.

ROB's nair is slow. It's a decent killing move but just too slow to outclass the nairs I mentioned.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I know there are differences wow. The thing is that they are both similar and so they are somewhat redundant.

Again they LOOK similar but their purposes and usage are different.
Don't know why you insist on contradicting yourself.

Well they are different but they are similar. @_@

 

[viparagon]

Too many people to count have argued with you on Pit's f-smash. Just on the first page there are at least a few who argue it.
I suppose that's why you are making the poll, after all.

ROB's nair is slow. It's a decent killing move but just too slow to outclass the nairs I mentioned.

it may be slow, but it outclasses all the others in every other aspect. if the ROB spaces correctly, none of the others should have a chance, except for possibly marth's. it even punishes spotdodges if the front passes through the spot twice. Its really in its own league. Your beginning to lose crediblity by questioning it IMO. I mean, Pikachu? SRSLY?

 

[ShadowLink84]

it may be slow, but it outclasses all the others in every other aspect. if the ROB spaces correctly, none of the others should have a chance, except for possibly marth's. it even punishes spotdodges if the front passes through the spot twice. Its really in its own league. Your beginning to lose crediblity by questioning it IMO. I mean, Pikachu? SRSLY?

You're losing credibility for being stupid.
ROB's Nair is like Ike's Fair without the range. So you have a good amount of startup which means that your opponent can react to it very well. let alone that he always has a blind spot at a roughly 9 o clock position.

Again ROB's Nair is not as good.

let alone that my argument concerning Pit's Fsmash not being number 1 was valid and you simply disregarded it without even debunking what I had stated.

 

[viparagon]

You're losing credibility for being stupid.
yay! so people think i'm getting smarter?
ROB's Nair is like Ike's Fair without the range. So you have a good amount of startup which means that your opponent can react to it very well. let alone that he always has a blind spot at a roughly 9 o clock position.

Again ROB's Nair is not as good.

let alone that my argument concerning Pit's Fsmash not being number 1 was valid and you simply disregarded it without even debunking what I had stated.

um... so mow thereis a debate for pit's fsmash and rob's nair?

sorry, argument on dk is void thanks b/c without speed included, D3 has the best fsmash.
is that true
oh, and you know it does 19 damage, right?
the other top 4 are wario, kirby lucario

Pros +cons (in comparason to pit)

wario
pros: super armor on start up, slighlty more powerful

cons: very slighlty slower, it has a zillion frames of end lag that can easily be puished.

kirby
pros: longer range

cons: slighlty slower, Very punishable on shield

lucario
pros: huge range, extremely hard to punish after execution

cons: huge startup, can easily be rolled around


marth
pros: tippers have power, range


cons: slower, punishable on shield, very little power when not a tipper.

pits cant really even be perfect sheilded, since the second hit pushes them back!
and don't pull out the dI bull****. its like saying your going to di out of warios dair or olimars nair. DI isn't some magical acronym you can pull out of your *** to counter any multi hit attack. Atmittedly, sometimes it doesn't hit twice, but its still enough to stop almost any approach and still place pit in a good position while racking up damage.

U CAN HAZ COUNTERPOINTZ!

 

[M15t3R E]

I knew it. It's your opinion that Pit has the best f-smash and you won't change it because you believe
your opinion > the mass's opinions.

Plenty of characters can grab even after the 2nd blow pushes them back, and all the rest can simply d-tilt to punish Pit after his f-smash is shielded.
Also Pit's f-smash lacks range and characters with good ranged f-smashes can't be shieldgrabbed when they use their f-smash properly.

 

[viparagon]

I knew it. It's your opinion that Pit has the best f-smash and you won't change it because you believe
your opinion > the mass's opinions.

Plenty of characters can grab even after the 2nd blow pushes them back, and all the rest can simply d-tilt to punish Pit after his f-smash is shielded.
Also Pit's f-smash lacks range and characters with good ranged f-smashes can't be shieldgrabbed when they use their f-smash properly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3NPw92PnwME

I know this is wifi, but my points stands. watch at 2:00

samus perfect sheilds pits fsmash and immediately forward tilts... for it too go halfway. try ounishing that!
Its time you stop playin theory bros.

keep watching for the "lingering" hitbox

 

[ShadowLink84]

um... so mow thereis a debate for pit's fsmash and rob's nair?

sorry, argument on dk is void thanks b/c without speed included, D3 has the best fsmash.

Don't ****ING strawman!

again as I said earlier.

Dk's fsmash does not have as much speed as Pit's but has much more range and much more power which makes up for it.
The speed factor is the ONLY thing that Pit has on any of the people in your top ten.

Don't strawman

is that true
oh, and you know it does 19 damage, right?
the other top 4 are wario, kirby lucario

Pros +cons (in comparason to pit)

wario
pros: super armor on start up, slighlty more powerful

cons: very slighlty slower, it has a zillion frames of end lag that can easily be puished.

It is 1 frame slower but unlike pit, has greater shieldstun.

pit's has poor range which means once you miss it or if they Di, the can hit you with anything with range slightly greater than a jab.

kirby
pros: longer range more power

cons: slighlty slower, Very punishable on shield

Its noticeably slower. Around 10 frames I think.

lucario
pros: huge range, extremely hard to punish after execution

cons: huge startup, can easily be rolled around

you roll around, you eat an Ftilt. The range is so great that by the time you stand up, Lucario can jab you.

Good fail.

marth
pros: tippers have power, range
cons: slower, punishable on shield, very little power when not a tipper.

Very little?
it has roughly the same power as Pit's smash.

It has poorshield stun just like Pit's but greater range.

pits cant really even be perfect shielded, since the second hit pushes them back!

Perfect shield the first hit and the second hit. Not hard to do. Or you can just shield grab him AFTER the first hit.

Or you can just, *gasp* wait for the move to end and then Ftilt/grab Pit.

samus would easily have nailed him with an Ftilt or grab. She could have just shielded the entire move then just grabbed.


nice fail.

and don't pull out the dI bull****. its like saying your going to di out of warios dair or olimars nair.

Those moves pull you in, Pit's Fsmash does not, it pushes you away.

DI says hi.

DI isn't some magical acronym you can pull out of your *** to counter any multi hit attack.

Sonic's Fair, MK's Bair,tornado, Sheik's Fsmash, all can be DI'ed from.
its not even hard considering hit delay is greater in this game.

Admittedly, sometimes it doesn't hit twice, but its still enough to stop almost any approach and still place pit in a good position while racking up damage.

it doesn't stop ANY approach. You have BAD range on the Fsmash. So you aren'ts topping anything, you're getting ZONED.
Do you know what ZONED is?

 

[viparagon]

Don't ****ING strawman!
What does that mean
again as I said earlier.

Dk's fsmash does not have as much speed as Pit's but has much more range and much more power which makes up for it.
The speed factor is the ONLY thing that Pit has on any of the people in your top ten.

Don't strawman



It is 1 frame slower but unlike pit, has greater shieldstun.

pit's has poor range still better than wario's...which means once you miss it or if they Di, the can hit you with anything with range slightly greater than a jab.

checck the link above u
Its noticeably slower. Around 10 frames I think.

you roll aroundbefore the attack starts, dummy! if it is properly spaced, yoou just shield it, and noone is better off., you eat an Ftilt. The range is so great that by the time you stand up, Lucario can jab you.

Good fail.hardly

Very little?
it has roughly teh same power as Pit's smash.no 10nos 1000nos

It has poorshield stun just like Pit's but greater range.

perfect shield means you don't get pushed back at all smart one.not if the second one hits after smart one
nice fail.

Those moves pull you in, Pit's Fsmash does not, it pushes you away.you stay in the same position, you can di away

DI says hi.

Sonic's Fair, MK's Bair,tornado, Sheik's Fsmash, all can be DI'ed from.tornado is still No. 1 on the list isn't it?
its not even hard considering hit delay is greater in this game.its still like a tenth of a second
it doesn't stop ANY approach. you SH fair, fsmash has more range, and the first hit hits up. joe character losesYou have BAD range on the Fsmash. its not bad, its still a sword attackSo you aren'ts topping anything, you're getting ZONED.
Do you know what ZONED is?

commentz in bold

 

[M15t3R E]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3NPw92PnwME

I know this is wifi, but my points stands. watch at 2:00

samus perfect sheilds pits fsmash and immediately forward tilts... for it too go halfway. try ounishing that!
Its time you stop playin theory bros.

keep watching for the "lingering" hitbox

F-tilt wasn't Samus's best option there. He could have fired a missle or grabbed. Also, as Shadowlink84 brought to my attention, both hits of Pit's f-smash can be perfect shielded. I forgot about that, but it's true. Simply perfect shield the first hit, then release and tap shield again quickly. Not too difficult.

 

[viparagon]

F-tilt wasn't Samus's best option there. He could have fired a missle or grabbed. Also, as Shadowlink84 brought to my attention, both hits of Pit's f-smash can be perfect shielded. I forgot about that, but it's true. Simply perfect shield the first hit, then release and tap shield again quickly. Not too difficult.

Quite difficult. On the absolute highest possible level of play, (like on that perfect conditions thread) yes, it fails. However, I've never seen any player, no matter how amzing, actually pull that off in a match. People find it hard to perfect shield projectiles, much less two lightning fast sword slashes. once again, theory bros. missile wouldv been to slow, and I'm not even confident that a grab would have worked. due to the attacks quick cooldown time. even you can recant your statement thats its simply punishable by a sheild grab or dtilt. there wasn't much time to react, and a player can't always pick out thre best options on the go. Besides, not many characters are gifted with a range grab, and most characters cant do anything

 

[M15t3R E]

I and several others feel the more ranged f-smashes are generally better.
So come to think of it, since when is this thread about YOUR beliefs?
It doesn't matter if you disagree with us. You are supposed to change up your lists based on the community's views. If you are unwilling to do that, this thread deserves to die.

 

[viparagon]

Since when is this thread about YOUR beliefs?
It doesn't matter if you disagree with us. You are supposed to change up your lists based on the community's views. If you are unwilling to do that, this thread deserves to die.

LOL so this is how your argument has degreed... its sad really...

OMG! MORE PEOPLE SED IT SO ITS RIGHT!

once again, LOL

if you want the community to be repped, why dont u start by answering the poll?

 

[ShadowLink84]

viparagon if you do the bold thing again im not responding to your posts. Its much too tie consuming for me.

What does that mean

It means making a response to my argument that has nothing to do with what I stated.

still better than wario's...

SA frames are sexy though.

checck the link above u

I responded to it. Again address my argument.

before the attack starts, dummy! if it is properly spaced, yoou just shield it, and noone is better off

Lucario's will use the Fsmash so that if you roll you won't get behind them.
Which means you sill get jabbed. this argument can be made for EVERY smash on this list you made.

no 10nos 1000nos

Thank you for disproving my statement.

not if the second one hits after smart one

Read my edit. Failure.

you SH fair, fsmash has more range, and the first hit hits up. joe character loses

really now? marth, Mk Fairs, you eat the Fair.
sonic Bairs, you eat the move. DK Bairs, you eat the move. Moves with range>Pit's Fsmash.

It doesn't stop alot of approaches.

its not bad, its still a sword attack

ten percent rule means it being disjointed doesn't mean crap
nice fail.

However, I've never seen any player, no matter how amzing, actually pull that off in a match.

I haven't seen it, therefore it doesn't exist.

logical fallacy.

People find it hard to perfect shield projectiles,

lol wu?
Go watch inui, he powershields projcetiles rather often.

much less two lightning fast sword slashes.

1st hit is on frame 5, second hit is around frame 15?

Not hard at all since powersihelds gives you 0 framesof waiting.

once again, theory bros.

Like you did by saying Fsmash stops alo fo approaches. contradictions FTW

missile wouldv been to slow, and I'm not even confident that a grab would have worked.

As soon as she tosses out the grab a the second hit it will land.
go test it youll find his true.

due to the attacks quick cooldown time.

but lets ignore the bad shield stun.

hell Mk's Dsmash is just as fast but he goes -25 frames.

even you can recant your statement thats its simply punishable by a sheild grab or dtilt.

Cause it is.

Once Pit gets shielded the opponent has more than 10 frames to react.

Not hard to punish at all.

there wasn't much time to react,

aughable idea. In your own video Samus Ftilted before Pit could do anythin, Which means there is plenty of time to react.

Frame and a player can't always pick out thre best options on the go.

Such factors are not valid since its similar to the idea of mindgames.
Not measurable.
We assume high level play on absolutes.
pit's fsmash is punishable.

Besides, not many characters are gifted with a range grab, and most characters cant do anything

Sonic can dash shield grab/Ftilt ou.
marth can Ftilt you/Dtilt
MK can Dtilt/Ftilt you
I can go on if you want.

 

[M15t3R E]

LOL so this is how your argument has degreed... its sad really...

OMG! MORE PEOPLE SED IT SO ITS RIGHT!

once again, LOL

if you want the community to be repped, why dont u start by answering the poll?

What's sad is that this post of yours proves you care more about your views than the views of the community.

Your poll is stupid. People PM'ing you? ****, ask a moderator if and how you can create an actual poll.