Metagame Development Thread. New thing to read!

[Padô]

I got it, grammar/terms error

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

I wasn't sure where to post this and someone has most likely posted this before but here goes...

Whilst messing around with Wario today, I found that due to his excellent horizontal air movement, Wario can actually run off a ledge, use Uair and land back on the same ledge. Basically, you run off a ledge, use Uair whilst you're doing this, pull back towards the stage/platform and you'll land back on there

Obviously when you land, you'll have Uair's landing lag but there's hardly any lag on his Uair when you land so its not much of a big deal
You can do this with Fair and Bair (Dair will send you plummeting though) but its much harder to get back on stage because of the way Wario moves himself when using his aerials (its much easier to get back onstage with Wario because his body moves upwards)

I can't really think of many applications for this at all because its so close to a ledge in most cases which means the person has invincibilty frames

Again, you guys probably know this but...meh :x

 

[Masky]

..........

 

[Padô]

yup, already known

Yea, already known and its possible to do with any of our aerials.

 

[Silver Swordsman]

So what's with you guys and hating on Wario's bike? I've seen tons of posts from veteran Wario players talking about how bad it is and even one saying that any player who considers it being useful is completely worthless. I also read a post saying it was discussed already ... but I've been lurking these forums for at least a year, and don't remember any real discussion on it besides the instant wipe-out which didn't receive very much attention. Where was it talked about?

I'm not saying the bike/tires will revolutionize Wario. I'm not posting this because of Kyrstedez or Ally. I think the bike can be an effective edgeguard that has more use than given credit for (it's situational, but there are still times that it's helpful). The tires could be looked at as a limited version of Diddy's banana game (hear me out). Throwing them down will let them bounce, so the other player will either have to attack it or avoid it (unless they're just camping). Landing a hit with them gives you enough hitstun for simple combos. Even though Wario doesn't throw them very quickly, with his aerial control and decent glide toss, he can still be fairly accurate with his throws.

Please don't over-exaggerate my post and think I'm a lousy scrub who's useless. I seriously think that there's a bit of potential with Wario's bike/tires. I know there are risks with pulling and leaving your bike out, and that tires are relatively simple to cancel out. Smart play can work around that though - there's plenty of times to pull a bike out safely and you can still play safely while it's out and break it slowly over time. If there's some inherent weakness to this that I'm unaware of, kindly point it out to me or link me to an old discussion. I'd like a real answer here. Thanks.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

So what's with you guys and hating on Wario's bike? I've seen tons of posts from veteran Wario players talking about how bad it is and even one saying that any player who considers it being useful is completely worthless. I also read a post saying it was discussed already ... but I've been lurking these forums for at least a year, and don't remember any real discussion on it besides the instant wipe-out which didn't receive very much attention. Where was it talked about?

I'm not saying the bike/tires will revolutionize Wario. I'm not posting this because of Kyrstedez or Ally. I think the bike can be an effective edgeguard that has more use than given credit for (it's situational, but there are still times that it's helpful). The tires could be looked at as a limited version of Diddy's banana game (hear me out). Throwing them down will let them bounce, so the other player will either have to attack it or avoid it (unless they're just camping). Landing a hit with them gives you enough hitstun for simple combos. Even though Wario doesn't throw them very quickly, with his aerial control and decent glide toss, he can still be fairly accurate with his throws.

Please don't over-exaggerate my post and think I'm a lousy scrub who's useless. I seriously think that there's a bit of potential with Wario's bike/tires. I know there are risks with pulling and leaving your bike out, and that tires are relatively simple to cancel out. Smart play can work around that though - there's plenty of times to pull a bike out safely and you can still play safely while it's out and break it slowly over time. If there's some inherent weakness to this that I'm unaware of, kindly point it out to me or link me to an old discussion. I'd like a real answer here. Thanks.

I think everyone is exaggerating everything about the bike and tires not just how bad it is but how good thy are to use. If you feel as though using the bike and tires for combos is something you want to add to your wario game then add it. There's no problem with that at all. With that said you also have to factor in the risk involved with leaving your bike on stage. You will get gimped. Wario's up B is horrible to recover with. So you're limiting your recovery options to add to your combo potential. Is it worth it? I think it depends on the match up. Just realize that you're take away from your recovery and your camp game. So that's two aspect where it hurts. If you want to use the bike to throw at people while their recovering go ahead that works just as well. There's not a problem with that just gotta remember it's more effective against some characters than others.

Just remember there's no right or wrong way to play Wario. If you want to add tires to you playstyle then do it as long it works for you. You just need to remember that it also takes away from different aspecets of Wario's game. Explore all your options and come up with a playstyle that you're comfortable with.

 

[Eddie G]

So what's with you guys and hating on Wario's bike? I've seen tons of posts from veteran Wario players talking about how bad it is and even one saying that any player who considers it being useful is completely worthless. I also read a post saying it was discussed already ... but I've been lurking these forums for at least a year, and don't remember any real discussion on it besides the instant wipe-out which didn't receive very much attention. Where was it talked about?

I'm not saying the bike/tires will revolutionize Wario. I'm not posting this because of Kyrstedez or Ally. I think the bike can be an effective edgeguard that has more use than given credit for (it's situational, but there are still times that it's helpful). The tires could be looked at as a limited version of Diddy's banana game (hear me out). Throwing them down will let them bounce, so the other player will either have to attack it or avoid it (unless they're just camping). Landing a hit with them gives you enough hitstun for simple combos. Even though Wario doesn't throw them very quickly, with his aerial control and decent glide toss, he can still be fairly accurate with his throws.

Please don't over-exaggerate my post and think I'm a lousy scrub who's useless. I seriously think that there's a bit of potential with Wario's bike/tires. I know there are risks with pulling and leaving your bike out, and that tires are relatively simple to cancel out. Smart play can work around that though - there's plenty of times to pull a bike out safely and you can still play safely while it's out and break it slowly over time. If there's some inherent weakness to this that I'm unaware of, kindly point it out to me or link me to an old discussion. I'd like a real answer here. Thanks.

That's exactly along the lines of what I was trying to do, to encourage having an open mind even if something may initially seem wacky and unviable. But I simply got treated as a troll and my posts were brushed to the side as a meager "Ally meatride" (I don't meatride anyone, I cheer for myself and my state...).

I'm disappointed in the behavior on my first etch of activity in the Wario boards. I just wanted to pass along an ideal and encourage discussion outside of the boundaries of standardized play to see what form of progression would come out of it, but despite my unnecessarily harsh introduction there was no reason to brush me off as a simple troll.

The Peach boards don't emulate this behavior. We encourage open discussion and the distribution of ideas with the hope of discovering things that may be overlooked through conventional discussion. But whatever...

/I apologize in advance for the off-topic banter, but it had to be said in a thread relevant to the one in which this case occurred.

 

[Lord Chair]

To be frank:

- Bike can be a fun way to punish landing airdodges at range.
- Bike is a great way to (situationally) counter several characters' projectile games: Diddy, Lucario, *others*

I've already held a small essay on why Wario's tire game is limited and why there's not much else to it than you'd think. I'm even nice enough to look it up (it's in the first part): http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=10274772&postcount=269

 

[Silver Swordsman]

Thanks for the link. Could you elaborate more on why his tire game is limited? If you throw a tire from above them they HAVE to respond, and I can't think of a situation where their response handles both the tire and any possible follow-up of yours. They can also be used to break more bikes quickly but I doubt you'll ever get the chance to do that lol

 

[AllyKnight]

tires are **** and actually works vs MK, those who hates em can keep playing how they want, no bashing though cuz you probably dont have the brain to use a tire. kk bye yo.

 

[Grizzer]

Thanks for the link. Could you elaborate more on why his tire game is limited? If you throw a tire from above them they HAVE to respond, and I can't think of a situation where their response handles both the tire and any possible follow-up of yours. They can also be used to break more bikes quickly but I doubt you'll ever get the chance to do that lol

you could always instant throw the tires back to the wario who will then still be in lag from his throw. catching tires is a lot easier than most people make it out to be

EDIT: or that might just be cause i play diddy

 

[toobusytocare]

tires are **** and actually works vs MK, those who hates em can keep playing how they want, no bashing though cuz you probably dont have the brain to use a tire. kk bye yo.

it doesnt take a lot of thought to use tires

but to get and keep the tires on stage does.

 

[Lord Chair]

Tires are limited because even though they require a response, pretty much every response will suffice (no matter how safe, lulz).

 

[Krystedez]

Haven't responded to this topic in a while. (tried editting and shortening a few things... long post is long...)

Sigh, here goes:

Defensive maneuvers are defensive, you will only be able to 'rack' damage with them if your opponent is silly enough to approach you, while you TEMPORARILY have an advantage. You're not playing an offensive game, if you are then it does not really involve advancing, not even if you have a tire. Wario's item throw is slow, Z dropping only serves purpose if you're close to your opponent.

Usually I am instant-catch-instant-throw tire bouncing them down while in the air, which is VERY fast to me, considering the tire comes right back up to you ready for another instant throw. It's almost as fast as Diddy ground dribbling, and can be used just as well for mind-gaming and offensive approaches, only for the air. For grounded play, glide-tossing is a better option then just simply throwing them.

I think that wario has so many options in the air that he is inclined to approach, especially with a tire, since it just means more nonsense the opponent has to deal with. Tire throw down from a short hop above the opponent and do a d-air immediately to deplete their shield even more, if they even shielded the tire. The most they will do is come out with their fastest ground move, which you can easily weave around. If the don't come out with anything, you can chomp or short hop nair quickly. Just because of that tire, you made them reconsider holding their shield too much longer as well.

Walling with tires is possible to a certain, weak extent (all attacks either catch or cancel them, tires are stationary when dropped or thrown up or downwards, and therefor do not warrant a lot of (if any) action.

If they aren't focused on the tires, they have a high possibility of being combo'd into them or easily from approaches like I stated above. If they aren't focused on you, then you have more options for regular approaches. You either force them to focus on one thing or the other.

Tires can be thrown up and down and relied on for interrupting combos, force them into shields, and combo'd into like I said from my few combos.

The combos you state are all very creative and are really fun when they work out, but they're pretty much all based on a shielding opponent. Why is your opponent shielding, and standing still? Even without tires, it just pretty much comes down to asking for a Bite, it's quite the terrible strategy.

I'll let you think about why your opponent is shielding or standing still, but for the record, that isn't the only way you can catch someone in a chomp. If I count the amount of times I caught someone just standing there silly that I've chomped in their shield, it'll definitely be a lot less of a number than when I've caught them in the air, mid-attack, spot/air dodging, or crawling up/jumping up a ledge.

As you said yourself, getting tires out in the first place may pose to be risky since leaving your bike onstage always has the potential to get you gimped. You do state incorrectly that opponents with tires are difficult opponents per se, that doesn't have to be true. I tend to laugh at MKs and Snakes picking up my tires, since they really pose less of a threat with a silly item that shouldn't ever hurt us in their hands. I've never really been gimped because a tire knocked me off my bike, if it'd ever come to that then you should take your recovery higher.

That's not exactly where I was going with my risk-banter. I was saying that it's risky for you to NOT be using the tires efficiently if they are out at all and you're just letting the opponent use them (by leaving them on stage without concern you are doing just that).

The bike onstage is only onstage for key moments during the fight, which may include EVERY TIME the opponent is away from you, and in my opinion that is completely opposite from being situational and is actually beneficial to the Wario-Bike Metagame (or what I call Road Rash Style) (yes imma dork XD) and to the Wario player in general, because now you have a bike to either bounce and trap people with, throw off stage for gimps/edgeguarding, or even just to DEFEND, which the bike is most useful for (throwing down and using it as a wall, approach from wherever the opponent least expects).

From that you can conclude that the bike itself is more of a defensive item than the tires ever will be, just because the bike stays out and bounces, EVENTUALLY breaking, but doesn't have to immediately like tires.

Our glide tossing is pathetic compared to ROB's, he throws faster, has better distances, glide tossing overall has more synergy with ROB's ground game (the basis of his game, after all) than it has with out air game. Really, terrible comparison. Wario's throw is not necessarily ineffective, it's just below average due to its terrible speed.

You're right. It is a terrible comparison, but not for the reason you think. ROB uses his glide toss for the major part of his approach game. Wario uses it for mistakes the opponent makes and combos from other attacks. ROB leads with glide toss. Wario does not. Usually.
That doesn't necessarily mean Wario's glide toss is completely outclassed by league or bounds of any kind just because ROB relies on it.

To conclude tires: I've never said that they're bad, but it isn't focus-on-worthy. They can net you some nice damage and everyone should know how to use them, but I don't think there's a lot of metagame development we can put to practice on this point (unless people still don't use them in the first place, I cringe every time people just randomly throw them at a shielding opponent, or overestimate the amount of hitstun on those things). Stressing the subject may have had its purpose though, I hope it did.

No one is implying that you are saying they're bad, but I personally, from real experience, wish to clear up some misconceptions that people have for the tires since no one uses the bike and tires nearly as extensive as I do except for maybe one or two people who started doing it more with their main game. You can't just simply write it off as a small or insignificant effect on the development of Wario's metagame until more people have assimilated to this style of play and prove with results.

Oh, and I definitely cringe every time someone uses the bike tires inefficiently as well. But that's not the point. I'm glad to discuss the tires with anyone, regardless of preference, because everyone's wario is different, but I just don't want others to be discouraged. Not that I'm saying you're trying to discourage people from using them, I'm just using my own stance as a way to show people I'm proud to be using them and I use them effectively.

On nair:

190, versus a well placed tire to fresh f-smash/fart/other kill move that any realistic wario player does not overuse to the point it wont kill before that. Plus, most good warios like ones that beat me (Blue Rogue comes to mind) use nair a **** ton a lot. That's why I think warios like him would be beast mode if he used the bike like I do or in a better fashion.

Jab:

People give jab more credit than tires. That's why I argued about it. And it doesn't lead to kill moves as easily. I think you can DI away from jab after first hit better than you can DI from a tire in any circumstance.

And woops, didn't mean to make this a TL;DR post... oh well, this is metagame discussion after all. I get a little carried away, and I don't expect everyone to read this. I just wanted to get off some key points. You don't have to agree with me, I just want others to see where I'm coming from and the reason why I do well at all in tournaments.

Smart play can work around that though - there's plenty of times to pull a bike out safely and you can still play safely while it's out and break it slowly over time.

This is exactly what I was saying about the risk stuff above too. Just thought I'd point that out.

 

[Lord Chair]

/applaud

I don't quite agree with some things you say, but addressing all of those points would lead into a pointless discussion because the way we view the 'facts' differ. Just replying to let you know I did read all of it through, and I appreciate the effort you put into it (because hey, appreciation is always fine).

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

/applaud

I don't quite agree with some things you say, but addressing all of those points would lead into a pointless discussion because the way we view the 'facts' differ. Just replying to let you know I did read all of it through, and I appreciate the effort you put into it (because hey, appreciation is always fine).

It's not pointless please respond to his points.

 

[Krystedez]

It's definitely pointless if it were to lead to the same synchronization of facts/opinion differences between the two of us. However, I'm not at all against responding a bit more carefully next time.

It's perfectly fine if his opinion differs from mine, my intent was not to incite any nonsensical debate, only to elaborate my points further. I am more than welcome for other people to address some issues with my post though, not all of it.

And I appreciate the fact that you did read it.

 

[Lord Chair]

It's as I said, my view on the bike and tires is just not as positive as his. That's probably because I always expect my opponents to deal with everything exactly the right way, I will take what I said about them not really advancing the metagame, but for the moment I'm not too impressed by what impact they have on Wario's game in general.

But perhaps that's just because I never really made it a big part of my game, I'll see if I can fit time to actually try so and until then, I don't think I really have a lot more to add to the discussion than I have so far ^^

I do stress the points I made about jab and nair though, I could write several more walls of text on them, but I'm pretty sure you guys get the point right now :D

edit: To be honest I'm quite busy right now, just finished my finals and I've got a tourny tomorrow, I'd elaborate but I'm just not quite in the mood for it. Also, mad respect for your way of analyzing and discussing.

 

[Krystedez]

Thanks.

I think that I'd be willing to implement jabs and nairs more into my game if I wasn't have so much **** fun with the bike. I know they are better than people give them credit for as well, probably more underrated most recently. It'd probably help if I just try these few things you listed and go off on that.

Jab->chomp chains are so sexy XP

 

[Lord Chair]

Oh yeah about people DIing jab: Jab > fair is somehow legit at higher percentages or in cases of good SDI, and it still does 15% ^^

 

[clowsui]

@krys
if you learned how to nair you would be putting so much more damage on falcos, just so you know...nair is scary because if i whiff jab or do something stupid close range you just come in with nair and then i have to guess right otherwise i eat a tech chase situation with a horrible roll or a DI read situation that can lead to grab and other BS depending on what i don't expect and the possible threat of a fart. nair makes me fear wario as falco...and the whole survivability thing

 

[Lord Chair]

Nair is pro against Falco because it covers pretty much all of his defensive options, and yeah it kinda puts him in a horrible position no matter what percentages.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

@krys
if you learned how to nair you would be putting so much more damage on falcos, just so you know...nair is scary because if i whiff jab or do something stupid close range you just come in with nair and then i have to guess right otherwise i eat a tech chase situation with a horrible roll or a DI read situation that can lead to grab and other BS depending on what i don't expect and the possible threat of a fart. nair makes me fear wario as falco...and the whole survivability thing

pfft what are you talking about just bair Wario you got this Clowsui bair and jab is all you need amirite?

 

[PhantomX]

Nair is pro against everyone... it's why it was my most used/favorite move.

 

[clowsui]

pfft what are you talking about just bair Wario you got this Clowsui bair and jab is all you need amirite?

jab still ***** vs. wario
so does bair and utilt...ftilt and lasers are less useful than usual but they still are fun
doesn't change the fact that if i mess up then wario can lay the hurt on me really hard with his tools.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

jab still ***** vs. wario
so does bair and utilt...ftilt and lasers are less useful than usual but they still are fun
doesn't change the fact that if i mess up then wario can lay the hurt on me really hard with his tools.

If you say so.

 

[Masky]

..........

 

[Dynomite]

jab still ***** vs. wario
so does bair and utilt...ftilt and lasers are less useful than usual but they still are fun
doesn't change the fact that if i mess up then wario can lay the hurt on me really hard with his tools.

Jab us if you want, expect a nair/clap if you do...

Bair us if you want, expect to get shield grabbed if you do...

Uptilt us if you want, we cant do much about it :/

Ftilt us if you want, it doesnt help either of us tbh...

Laser us if you want, expect the match to last a long time.

Ill tell you right now, nair with falco is where its at.. we cant do much about that either.

 

[Waymas]

tires are the **** i have to agree with all the warios that use em, pretty much kause it kovers an area when u can combo when they bounce or even dthrow. Aktually thats how i **** the mks on wifi xD

Also bike for edguardin is really useful. Im just usin sumtin new and its kinda workin , currently workin more on my grab game and doin sum ground releases(jab + fsmash , jab + bite, fsmash if they do a quick atack or uair if they jump) works awesome i have to say.

Now the bad part of usin the bike too much is obviously gettin gimped , but that shouldnt be a problem unless youre against an mk or in cp. Just play campy to avoid this situation.

Tires need to be used , or just try sumtin new. People need to be creative.

 

[Dynomite]

^ waymas.. Bike is really legit. Tires are really really legit. Wifi.. not so legit. i think people in real life will react fast enough to shield or get out of Grab release> jab or fsmash. I normally try to read what they are going to do after they break out or even a Dthrow. Some people jump from a Dthrow so i clap. i have to work on my originality game i feel like i can be doing so much more than what im doing no. i feel so brain dead when im playing.

 

[toobusytocare]

Jab us if you want, expect a nair/clap if you do...

Bair us if you want, expect to get shield grabbed if you do...

Uptilt us if you want, we cant do much about it :/

Ftilt us if you want, it doesnt help either of us tbh...

Laser us if you want, expect the match to last a long time.

Ill tell you right now, nair with falco is where its at.. we cant do much about that either.

Wrong, jab cancels **** vs wario

Wrong, we can't shield grab in mid air

Semi-right

Wrong, ftilt is a really good move

Right, but good falcos are prepared to play really long matches and it doesnt change the fact that we still have to get in to do damage and he doesn't

the matchup is in falco's favor

 

[Dynomite]

Wrong, jab cancels **** vs wario

Wrong, we can't shield grab in mid air

Semi-right

Wrong, ftilt is a really good move

Right, but good falcos are prepared to play really long matches and it doesnt change the fact that we still have to get in to do damage and he doesn't

the matchup is in falco's favor

What are you talking about!?!?!

Jab: ever heard of SDI??

Ftilt is mainly used for spacing and a good wario isnt gonna be in that range. Either in falco's face or away.

The matchup is NOT in falco's favor. Its either going to be dead even or slightly in wario's favor because of the buffered chaingrab.

 

[Lord Chair]

Dyno you're very wrong.

TBTC is right.

edit: Truth is, whether or not ftilt is spammable is not pertinent: it's very good when used properly, also against Wario.

You don't SDI 1 jab to the extent of making a real difference.

Matchup is definitely in Falco's favor, the CG doesn't even make too much of a difference (no it really doesn't, I've had to explain that too often now to be bothered to make a writeup again).

Lasers are really good, no one cares about how long the match is going to take.

 

[Dynomite]

Dyno you're very wrong.

TBTC is right.

edit: Truth is, whether or not ftilt is spammable is not pertinent: it's very good when used properly, also against Wario.

You don't SDI 1 jab to the extent of making a real difference.

Matchup is definitely in Falco's favor, the CG doesn't even make too much of a difference (no it really doesn't, I've had to explain that too often now to be bothered to make a writeup again).

Lasers are really good, no one cares about how long the match is going to take.

1) i never said lasers are bad. I just said that if the falco is going to laser camp then that will make the match last really long. And YES people DO care about matches lasting long, why else would people be saying that wario is an annoying character and stalling/planking/camping should be banned.

2) SDI Jab: if and only IF falco holds the jab we CAN sdi up and inward to clap or nair. there is a thread about SDI somewhere on the wario boards. I guess its my fault for not clearing up that i was talking about the holding jab and not the jab cancel

3) i would start talking about the chaingrab but i dont want to start making you talk about something that will annoy you because you have explained it before.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Dyno you're very wrong.

TBTC is right.

edit: Truth is, whether or not ftilt is spammable is not pertinent: it's very good when used properly, also against Wario.

You don't SDI 1 jab to the extent of making a real difference.

Matchup is definitely in Falco's favor, the CG doesn't even make too much of a difference (no it really doesn't, I've had to explain that too often now to be bothered to make a writeup again).

Lasers are really good, no one cares about how long the match is going to take.

Really tired of your arrogant attitude and you talking down to basically everyone ****ting on people play style and what no with your vague and ambiguous response. If you're not going to post in a better manner then please stop posting all together your the most obnoxious person I've seen on SWF and it's really annoying. So like I said either go into details about how the match up is is falco's favor or STFU seriously.

 

[Krystedez]

AL, its okay, don't get too frustrated about that. He's not posting to be deliberately back-lashing or anything, it's his opinion.

I will however go into detail on a few things, since I've played high-level enough falcos in real life to know a little bit about the MU and how I generally feel about it:

Ftilt is a mind **** move. You get hit by it once. Don't expect to get hit by it again, unless you're literally getting skull-****ed by mind-games... You might not DI away from it because you think it's a silly move to approach with, and you think you can out-prioritize it.

TRUTH IS, it's no Snake F-tilt, and can not be abused as well.
TRUTH IS, it's not able to be much more used properly to make it any more useful, let alone "very good", because of low-knockback, percent, lack of range, and not being able to lead anything from it at all. MAYBE BDACUS?

TRUTH IS, no one smart enough to avoid it after the first time is going to get caught by it again. You could use it as properly as you want, but it simply will not matter if the wario is at the same mindset and skill level as the falco. They're going to avoid it, because they're already avoiding your close range attacks like jab and grab and uptilt.

As far as SDI goes, you'd be amazed at how useful it is to learn to SDI EVERYTHING. IT DOES MAKE A DIFFERENCE. From Peach's stupid dair, to Metaknight's first hits of the tornado, to Snake's jab, to the first hit of D3's dair, you can DI everything, including a single jab, to make a difference. It allows you to mix up your location around the opponent, for less chances of them reading you.

I will agree that CG does not make much of a difference. But Falco vs Wario is fleshed out enough to the point that MOST will agree that it's pretty even. He does not have a garunteed air-grab release on wario. His only chance of early kill comes from between 0 to 40 percent, and even that's not perfect, the rest of the match is all concerning actual skill and reading. Falco will not kill wario that fast, it's fact. Falco has to rely on gimps, racking up a ton of damage, and camping with lasers/fancy ****. To be quite honest it makes me sick to hear someone say the match is that heavily in Falco's favor, because most Falcos dont even know the wario matchup completely unless they play it everyday like Arty does. (whom I've had the pleasure of facing)

 

[toobusytocare]

AL and dyno: Fiction and i have argued this with you COUNTLESS times. We've even brought larry into this.

its 45:55 falcos favor, winnable but not easy.

Im not saying wario gets ***** by falco or anything (krystedez) but to think that wario has the adv is stupid

when you've played a falco even CLOSE to larry's level then come argue that wario beats falco. otherwise drop it.

also the CG is nice but it doesnt change a whole lot, like landing 3 aerials does about as much at the CG <_<

 

[Lord Chair]

Kinda what Krys and TBTC said, I would've elaborated but I was busy at the time.

Also, in order to prevent any further inconveniences (rage):
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=10353859&postcount=141

Also:

Don't sweat it, I should just not address people the way I do. I never really try to troll though (apart from the critique thread that one time), and I'll usually have good intentions with what I post. It's just kinda my style to prove other people wrong instead of coming with too many new insights myself because I'm pretty terrible as viewing things from another person's perspective (which pretty much means I expect everyone to know the same things I do, which is a wrong way to approach people). I'm just rather 'good' at proving others wrong, I guess, but if you look at my posts you'll see they usually work towards contributing.

Anyway, all this will sort itself out when we meet at Apex, I'm actually a pretty cool guy

That was aimed at Albert. I believe, pretty much all of it counts for you as well AL.

MU against Falco is indeed 45-55, annoying and in no way easy. Getting the grab at the percentages required to get a decent chaingrab is nigh impossible against Falco, and actively attempting to grab will get yourself *****.

That would be all, any other negative remarks on my attitude can be taken to social threads or hell, PMs.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

AL and dyno: Fiction and i have argued this with you COUNTLESS times. We've even brought larry into this.

its 45:55 falcos favor, winnable but not easy.

Im not saying wario gets ***** by falco or anything (krystedez) but to think that wario has the adv is stupid

when you've played a falco even CLOSE to larry's level then come argue that wario beats falco. otherwise drop it.

also the CG is nice but it doesnt change a whole lot, like landing 3 aerials does about as much at the CG <_<

what three aerials are you doing that puts falco 70 damage on falco. That sounds like some hax **** to me.

When Larry's response is ZOMG bair how can I even take that seriously? Especially when the week after he plays Fiction and I can count on one hand how much he bair'd in the whole set. He only wins because fiction drops the CG? But shrugs whatever I guess.

But seriously what swings the match up into Falco's favor. I really don't get it. Is it the fact that falco lives to dumb high percentages? Or because falco kills Wario dumb early? Or the fact that falco can punish Wario's recovery and rack damage that way. Or is it because Falco can easily CP wario?

Seriously don't need you to say ZOMG play larry or you don't know the match up. DEHF 1337 get that uber sex pro mu and your opinion is meaningless because you haven't played DEHF so piss off nub scrub non DEHF playing noob.

Getting back on track if you want to call the MU even I'll agree with you on that. However, I in no way shape or form believe falco has the edge nor do I think just because I haven't played DEHF in the MU invalidates any of my points.

 

[Lord Chair]

You're so offensive it's lulzy. Go through the MU discussion on both the Wario and the Falco boards, there's enough explanation for the matchup being in Falco's favor. The easiest way to describe it is: Falco is a fortress which has to be approached, and Wario doesn't have an easier time doing so than any other character (no he really doesn't). If you want full insights then add me on msn or AIM, I should be leaving in 5 minutes...