Metagame Development Thread. New thing to read!

[SnackAttack]

Ehh, I think anything is worth learning, really.

You can never have too much of a good thing, know what I mean?

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Ehh, I think anything is worth learning, really.

You can never have too much of a good thing, know what I mean?

yeah I guess.

 

[Humpy Thrashabout]

I borrowed my friend's Dazzle so now I have a method to upload videos. I'm going to make a "Humpy's Trixies" thread in a few days with videos of all the Wario things I know. But until then you guys can see a video of when I mained D3.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-oh2ihBcEY

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Hmm Ithought that wasn't possible to do?

 

[Humpy Thrashabout]

It isn't. It's just really funny.

D-throw-> boosted pivot grab -> D-throw

 

[Juno McGrath]

dude change your render plz.

that hurt my eyes.

 

[Humpy Thrashabout]

I have no idea how make it not look like that. I'm using Windows Movie Maker on my netbook. If my desktop didn't **** the bed I could probably make it better.

 

[Waymas]

wario cg on falco should be in here too

 

[SnackAttack]

I don't even know HOW exactly that ChainGrab works.....

Isn't like....our Dthrow has to be stale at 72%

 

[Humpy Thrashabout]

Imma make a video.

 

[toobusytocare]

if you start the CG before 70% then you will CG just fine

thats all you need to know

 

[Waymas]

yea but in wut certain time you need to grab to make it succed

 

[Lord Chair]

Malcolm against ADHD was nice. He should start using more nair and less fsmash, god everytime he whiffed a fsmash something inside of me died, as well as every time he preferred spotdodging in close quarters over nair

Though if you read this Malcolm, thumbs up, really nice job

 

[PhantomX]

Lots of Warios do much more fsmash and much less nair than they should.

 

[Dynomite]

Lots of Warios do much more fsmash and much less nair than they should.

Up tilt needs to be used much more in a wario's game. It is just so good!

plus he cheers every time you use it.

 

[Lord Chair]

I say, it's funny that US gets hyped about nair so **** late. How is it not obvious that the move is borderline broken

 

[PhantomX]

I say, it's funny that US gets hyped about nair so **** late. How is it not obvious that the move is borderline broken

I live in the US... I practically invented/perfected nair use... CONTRADICTION, SIR. People just don't listen, is all.

Utilt is too slow in start up to be frequently usable, but it's definitely a good move for people that like to airdodge into/through or for obvious dair attempts that we want to beat out

 

[Padô]

I realized Nair is Warios best aerial for about 8 months ago.
Unfortunately I watch many and many videos that people keep trying to FSmash his opponents while they are really close combat which is really big opening If your opponent get used to it. Every time I'm in close combat I Nair it away, if I hit the 1st hitbox I tend to go for the 2nd hitbox hit and then grab, jab or maybe a dair, you can get used to it really fast.

 

[Masky]

..........

 

[PhantomX]

You just still don't know, is all.

And dair is SDIable, man, SDIable stuff isn't that awesome compared to non-SDIable stuff (unless it does 21%, lol). It's still top 2 moves though.

 

[Masky]

..........

 

[PhantomX]

Haha, I guess we need to rephrase. Dair is the best move against people with good shields/grabs and at low percents (this pretty much limits nair to being used simply as a gtfo/retreating move). At all other times, nair is the best move (except at lethal, I guess?).

Last hit of dair is epic, as you said, and I'm glad you put it to good use, but that one isn't as safe as rising dair, for example, people always have a small window of time to punish all our moves on shield, it's just quite tiny. Nair during the last few frames has guaranteed combos into grab and/or smash at all but the most ridiculously high percentages, and it actually has superior shield poking than dair, from what I've experienced. Haha, I donno, it's possible that I may be biased, but no move of Warios has as many uses as nair. I like his dair and fair and use them plenty, as well as upair (I actually prefer this one at low percents for whatever reason), but they just aren't as versatile.

Nair is also always disjointed at the tips of the fingers, whereas Dair is only disjointed during that final hitbox (which is bigger than the others). I would argue that bair would be our best move if you didn't have to jump so high to get it to autocancel

 

[Padô]

Good job by bringing Bair into discussion PX.

It's a really GOOD move, seriously I can see a lot of use on this move. I tested it in so many ways and, i realized that it can cover the ground you need REALLY weel against some characters we have so many problems to maintain distance from like Marth, MK sometimes and, as strange as it might seem, it works **** WELL against extremelly defensive Snakes. You can hit his shield with it safely, while he's got a granade on his feet and you are just fine, I managed to poke his shield with Bair wait for the granade to explode and then FSmash/Dair/Nair him out of his shield.

Against Marths If you get his Fair opening right you can cover your ground safely for the entire match with it and some good shieldgrabs. I started to punish MKs afterdone Fairs with it too.

I don't think I need to talk about using BAir OoS which is pretty neat too and it has been proved on before, honestly it's way better then many other edgeguard moves of the entire cast have, the only counterpart of it is what PX stated: You gotta stay too much in the air until it autocancels, you cant just FastFall it properly and proceed to combo your opponent consistently.

 

[PhantomX]

Oh yeah, as far as offstage/at the ledge goes, bair is our best move followed by nair.

Don't get complacent though, people can grab you out of it quite easily, and it isn't safe on shield. It's why I mostly use it to punish retreating/committed aerials or to edgeguard.

 

[Lord Chair]

Offstage bair chasing is pro, mostly because few characters can actually do something against it. Nair chasing offstage is a bit awkward though, on what basis do you rate it higher than fair?

 

[PhantomX]

Stronghit nair has good horizontal knockback (fair pretty much never does), you can maneuver it around better since Wario is the hitbox, and if you hit with weakhit nair it has that flub knee effect in that it just stuns/interrupts, so it's great for eating jumps or disrupting vertical recoveries. It's also important b/c you can drop it on an opponent from above, whereas fair and bair are really only good when horizontal to your opponent.

 

[Lord Chair]

Hm, the flubbing properties can be traced into fair too, as well as falling fairs having the same effect as nair, only with a tad more range. True on knockback though, perhaps I don't play enough matchups in which sacrificing the range is actually worth it. I'll keep it in the back of my head though.

 

[PhantomX]

Fair's hitbox doesn't have as much range/only hits in front of Wario and doesn't last as long

 

[SnackAttack]

I tend to use Fair as my camping Aerial...

Is that good?

 

[Padô]

Chair,

Fair flubbing property is a bit different from Nairs.

Nair's got a 2nd hitbox with flubbing properties on it, Fair will flubb your opponent if you hit him during the last frames of the hitbox you can call it sourspotted hit but It might seem a bit strange, Fair has got a bit more knockback on the very first frames of the hitbox too. Also, it's very risky to use FAir with the same property as Nair on stage

SA,

Against specific characters, It's safe. But, don't get used with it sometimes people can just overcome it.


PX,

That's why I specified extremelly defensive Snake about hitting their shields with Bairs. I just can't use it on shields against some other characters like DDD.

 

[Lord Chair]

Uh I know about the differences between fair and nair onstage, thank you. We were rather comparing nair to fair in an offstage situation.

I know Wario, thanks for you helpfulness but spare yourself the time on giving me info on stuff like knockback values

 

[SnackAttack]

What do you mean by "Flubbing"?

 

[Lord Chair]

What do you mean by "Flubbing"?

Just the weak hit, which does not really have a lot of knockback (if any) but rather applies a silly amount of hitstun.

 

[Padô]

Just the weak hit, which does not really have a lot of knockback (if any) but rather applies a silly amount of hitstun.

And a considerable chance to make your opponent trip.

Sorry Chair,

By the way there are some applications of nair offstage that fair just can't be used on those ocasions like: "TL/Diddy is recovering from below, you are hanging the ledge, you FF a invincible Nair and gimp him." The same applies to Marth recovering from below, Ike etc. Another occasion I LOVE is: "The opponent is offstage and HE'S going to Airdodge your gimp attempt to get below the ledge and recover safely" If you read his airdodge correctly and you Nair during it and he's getting a silly small knockback from the 2nd hit which will just wreck the recoveries from some characters by pushing them a bit down. Those are some exemples of vertical applications PX mentioned above, just to make this discussion a bit more rich on info.

Also the 1st hit from Nair has got a good knockback IF it's not stale (but it usually is stale). I killed a plenty of people after getting KO'd (means that my Nair is fresh), by hanging the ledge and when they try to land on stage I hop up and Nair or, reading their 2nd jump and jump simultaneously with him and nair'ing. I remember killing a MK at 110ish by doing this. Those are horizontal applications that Fair could eventually be used instead of Nair.

IDK If I made this clear enough, I'm sorry if I just rementioned something already stated above.

FAir ain't got a strong knockback as Nair's first hit but it's pretty broken too, while offstage if you land a Fair you are putting you opponent in a REALLY BAD position, after it you can go for another Fair, a Waft, a Bite or a Nair. You can't setup your opponent with Nair just because it's got a little afterdone lag in the air, just like Uair does.

Fairs knockback is more like a "setting you up for a kill" knockback , Nairs 2nd hit is "Ok now get gimped lol" knockback and Nairs first hit can be used as a KO move offstage or as a gimp move too.

I'm putting some exemples down to make this easier for comprehension

 

[Lord Chair]

Hey yeah, followups on fair, I was looking for that one.

Fair > **** offstage is pretty much guaranteed, especially on characters with an inferior recovery (Marth, spacies, low tiers (hehe)) you can pretty much see fair > fair and fair > fart as a 'combo', after all, if they airdodge they're dead. Landing fair or nair far offstage usually means serious business (Wario offstage is serious business in general), just make sure you know when to go out and when you really shouldn't.

 

[Waymas]

has anyone try nair falco first side b frames to waft it always work , well atleast for me its really useful or fair to waft sumtimes work but nair always hit

 

[Padô]

Well I knocked Falco out of the first frames of SideB with almost all moves but never tried Nair >Waft...

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Does anyone leave the bike on the stage as a way to prevent projectile spam ?

 

[Lord Chair]

Knocking Falco out of his startup on Phantasm means you have to precisely predict when he's going for it, if you predict such a thing you basically have him dead since everything will gimp him at that stage. Falco won't go for a phantasm to recover from the ledge while Wario is close to him.

 

[Waymas]

wario nair > falco side b