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Metagame Development Thread. New thing to read!
- Thread starter SnackAttack
- Start date
Lord Chair
Smash Master
DACUS sucks, whether it's buffered or not I do honestly not care. You can technically learn the distance it travels and use it after a high percent Bite and somehow manage to just get the last (2) hits. It's not the most realistic of situations but it can definitely improve your game.
Still sucks though. Oh and don't use it as a runaway tool, simply because because you have better options.
Still sucks though. Oh and don't use it as a runaway tool, simply because because you have better options.
Buff. a buffered DACUS would be great for escapes if you can perfect it, but only use it if they're likely to grab/hit you out of your jump/dodge/whatever.
chimpact
Smash Lord
I dont think you can buffer a dacus going in the opposite direction
Humpy Thrashabout
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Mar 10, 2009
- Messages
- 294
I SH Dair forward then retreat it back to where I started into a buffered DACUS at my opponent. It seems to work pretty well for shield pressure. If you hit Dair on shield when they're facing away from you then you can safely Dair and then the first hit or 2 of the DACUS will hit as you slide through them and to a safe distance.
I did it in the video I made: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zy1RSL2hnA
And yeah I know... SDI, it's dumb, I'm bad, etc.
I think you can buffer a DACUS from hit stun too. I've been meaning to try it. It might be useful for escaping certain things. Maybe like if you get hit by Marth's falling Fair and they try to follow it up with forward smash for something.
I'm sure there are better options, but I'm just throwing things out there.
EDIT: @yoshididdy, I thought the same thing, but PX informed me that you can buffer the turnaround. I find it really hard, but I was able to do it a few times.
I did it in the video I made: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zy1RSL2hnA
And yeah I know... SDI, it's dumb, I'm bad, etc.
I think you can buffer a DACUS from hit stun too. I've been meaning to try it. It might be useful for escaping certain things. Maybe like if you get hit by Marth's falling Fair and they try to follow it up with forward smash for something.
I'm sure there are better options, but I'm just throwing things out there.
EDIT: @yoshididdy, I thought the same thing, but PX informed me that you can buffer the turnaround. I find it really hard, but I was able to do it a few times.
Yeah, you can buffer turnaround inputs, gotta be hella fast/technical, but it's very possible. Our chaingrab revolves around turnaround so whatever XD If you can reverse buffer DACUS, you can do anything Wario has to do.
Humpy Thrashabout
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Mar 10, 2009
- Messages
- 294
I can chaingrab pretty well, but the inputs are:
controlstick-left -> controlstick-neutral -> controlstick-left+Cstick-up -> both sticks neutral -> Cstick-up
in 10(?) frames. That is crazy difficult. I got down the SH Dair to buffered DACUS just through muscle memory. I practiced it for about a half hour everyday for a week and now I can do it without even thinking about it.
Maybe if I tried doing that for a turnaround I might get it down.
controlstick-left -> controlstick-neutral -> controlstick-left+Cstick-up -> both sticks neutral -> Cstick-up
in 10(?) frames. That is crazy difficult. I got down the SH Dair to buffered DACUS just through muscle memory. I practiced it for about a half hour everyday for a week and now I can do it without even thinking about it.
Maybe if I tried doing that for a turnaround I might get it down.
Lord Chair
Smash Master
I actually just realized how terrible a stage Frigate is. People complaining about the flips and the ledge, but really the bowl shaped transformation is really bull**** in too many matchups.
I ask of you, fellow Wario mains, what is your opinion on that specific transformation?
I ask of you, fellow Wario mains, what is your opinion on that specific transformation?
Lord Chair
Smash Master
I figure almost everything, since it takes away much vertical spacing whether you're up or down the slope. You can't effectively jump up from below since that'd mean you're already committing to landing either on the platform or in a very cramped space. Coming from up the slope is also difficult, perhaps even more difficult because you can't really bair of fair there. Crossups are hard as well, due to space.
That's just in general, think of a campy Peach or walling Marth. Characters like Falco can abuse the fact that they're down the slope by spamming lasers, and while up the slope they don't really have to fear proper approaches. The platform is, of course, extra annoying since it limits a vertical approach while the **** pit doesn't allow Wario's horizontal spacing either.
I dunno, the few times I counterpicked Frigate it was against Peach and I got stuck getting camped the entire match because the **** thing didn't transform (never going there against Peach anymore, christ). Kaak usually CPs it as well, just because the bowl part is pretty much a drama against GaW. It's not so much the fact that other characters can abuse it in one way or another, just that most of Wario's game gets rather limited.
That's just in general, think of a campy Peach or walling Marth. Characters like Falco can abuse the fact that they're down the slope by spamming lasers, and while up the slope they don't really have to fear proper approaches. The platform is, of course, extra annoying since it limits a vertical approach while the **** pit doesn't allow Wario's horizontal spacing either.
I dunno, the few times I counterpicked Frigate it was against Peach and I got stuck getting camped the entire match because the **** thing didn't transform (never going there against Peach anymore, christ). Kaak usually CPs it as well, just because the bowl part is pretty much a drama against GaW. It's not so much the fact that other characters can abuse it in one way or another, just that most of Wario's game gets rather limited.
The pit is pretty gay against characters that wall/camp us effectively enough. It doesn't really hinder mobility THAT much if you're good at fallthroughs, though.
Humpy Thrashabout
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Mar 10, 2009
- Messages
- 294
I've seen some weird fall through tricks with Gannon's Dair. Anyone have anything useful for Wario? I never really gave platforms too much thought.
Fallthrough nairs, bites, and upairs in particularly are amazing. I do fallthroughs and platform games all the time. I wish I could've gotten used to platform canceling, but that stuff always caught me off guard, lol.
It's an easy way to get wafts too. People always try to hit you through platforms, so with good timing you can get free powershield > wafts... was a favorite trick of mine.
It's an easy way to get wafts too. People always try to hit you through platforms, so with good timing you can get free powershield > wafts... was a favorite trick of mine.
Humpy Thrashabout
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Mar 10, 2009
- Messages
- 294
I don't get platform canceling. Is there a good video out that shows how to use it effectively?
Juno McGrath
Smash Hero
lol sometimes i platform cancel and i scream wario wavedash in tourney, theres no way it cant help you.
toobusytocare
Smash Lord
you dair as you're going through a moving platform (lylat, RC, SV, etc.)
done.
done.
Padô
Smash Lord
Buff, there is a really simple way to know if you are bufferiing the Cg correctly or not.
NOTICE THAT, Falco is the only character that can't be regrabbed if you don't buffer this correctly, Wolf, Dk, Bowser and Cpt. Falcon land on your grab range and even if you don't buffer you can regrab them on training mode.
Go to training, pick Wario for you and Falco CPU. Put him on 53% and try to CG him, If Falco is landing away from your grab range YOU AREN'T BUFFERING YOUR GRAB. If you regrab him congratulations! You just buffered it!
Follow those steps against Falco, if you do so you can CG any character that can be CG'd:
1st grab him and DThrow
2nd Hold the analog to where Falco is landing.
3rd Pay attention to Wario's Hand, when it's almost closed you release back the analog to the neutral position and press Z (the release > Z timing is almost the same as performing a DACUS)
4th You must have Falco Regrabbed, if not you are not buffering it.
If you shield Pops Up you are trying to regrab too late, If you just turn around you only buffered the turnaround and not the grab, If Falco lands away from your grab range and you turned around and tried to grab you've done a regular Turnaround grab without buffering.
This is the only ALONE AT HOME method to know if you are getting this CG to work, and It MUST be tried against Falco! MUST
NOTICE THAT, Falco is the only character that can't be regrabbed if you don't buffer this correctly, Wolf, Dk, Bowser and Cpt. Falcon land on your grab range and even if you don't buffer you can regrab them on training mode.
Go to training, pick Wario for you and Falco CPU. Put him on 53% and try to CG him, If Falco is landing away from your grab range YOU AREN'T BUFFERING YOUR GRAB. If you regrab him congratulations! You just buffered it!
Follow those steps against Falco, if you do so you can CG any character that can be CG'd:
1st grab him and DThrow
2nd Hold the analog to where Falco is landing.
3rd Pay attention to Wario's Hand, when it's almost closed you release back the analog to the neutral position and press Z (the release > Z timing is almost the same as performing a DACUS)
4th You must have Falco Regrabbed, if not you are not buffering it.
If you shield Pops Up you are trying to regrab too late, If you just turn around you only buffered the turnaround and not the grab, If Falco lands away from your grab range and you turned around and tried to grab you've done a regular Turnaround grab without buffering.
This is the only ALONE AT HOME method to know if you are getting this CG to work, and It MUST be tried against Falco! MUST
The future of Wario's metagame is walking really slowly so that your opponents burst into laughter... AND THEN YOU STRIKE!
Lord Chair
Smash Master
Our grab game won't change.
Tires cannot be used offensively, you can use them to cover defensive maneuvers but if your opponent has any sense he won't fall for it. Glide tossing tires is usually ineffective, Wario's item throw data is not impressive. Z dropping and throwing the tires up, down or against funny slopes are (imo) the way to go.
Oh yeah, MK obviously cannot cancel the tires through all too easy means. You could say that having a tire limits his walling capabilities since whiffing spaced fairs is no longer save. Still, you shouldn't be using tires as an offensive tool, not even against Meta Knight.
I refer to slopes once against simply because it's way too fun on Delfino (you should know what I'm talking about). But really, these parts of Wario's metagame could be considered worth exploring, but I don't think anything special will come out.
What Warios should focus on at the moment are (imo) nair and jab.
Tires cannot be used offensively, you can use them to cover defensive maneuvers but if your opponent has any sense he won't fall for it. Glide tossing tires is usually ineffective, Wario's item throw data is not impressive. Z dropping and throwing the tires up, down or against funny slopes are (imo) the way to go.
Oh yeah, MK obviously cannot cancel the tires through all too easy means. You could say that having a tire limits his walling capabilities since whiffing spaced fairs is no longer save. Still, you shouldn't be using tires as an offensive tool, not even against Meta Knight.
I refer to slopes once against simply because it's way too fun on Delfino (you should know what I'm talking about). But really, these parts of Wario's metagame could be considered worth exploring, but I don't think anything special will come out.
What Warios should focus on at the moment are (imo) nair and jab.
People really need to expand their edgeguarding as well, particularly ledgedropped shenanigans.
Damage Points
Smash Ace
I suck at edge guarding with wario. What's the most effective way to edge guard with him?
Krystedez
Awaken the Path
I'm gunna pull a RealBobMan argument.
Tires CAN be used offensively. You can bounce them. You can use them for defensive maneuvers that turn into percentage increasers (read: Offense, i.e.:
throws/grabs:
- into tires, (any throw)
- grab after tire hit
combos
-dthrow into tire bouncing behind you, fsmash/fart (kudos to the interview thread... I forgot who, Ill read in a sec)
-chomp, foward glidetoss tire, fsmash
-chomp, down glidetoss tire, REVERSE chomp again, dacus (regrab tire if possible through the dacus), throw tire up or glidetoss down depending on DI)
-chomp, chomp throws them into a bouncing tire just a few feet from you, knocking them toward you...
-etc...
Basically you can use the tires like little bouncing combo inducers. If you're not getting anything from them offensively, then you're not using them in the correct way. If you're letting them shield your tires, which you shouldn't be JUST tossing at them, then you're being predictable.
Also, you're going to HAVE to keep a tire in your hand, because if you don't, guess who will? If you're anything like me and like abusing the bike, tires will be all over the place, because noone in their right mind leaves the bike on stage for TOO long, unless you're setting up for some edge-guarding. Even then, tires will exploding every which direction, so it's hard NOT to just grab one and set it up quickly during the fight. If you don't, then 1. you're opponent will grab the tire and use it against you, 2 you might even get gimped from being hit with a tire while riding you're bike.
I also want to state that Glide tossing tires are about as useful as maybe Rob's. I don't know how you're getting that his throw is ineffective. Z dropping leads to easy shielding, compared to just bouncing them from the air, and slopes are situational.
You can argue that tires in themselves are situational, but you gotta remember how often you're going to have them out if you're even approaching Wario's bike from an offensive approach. AND thats the problem. Not enough people approach Wario that way.
Last thing: jab will only set up for so many things. Nair is a staple to interrupting attacks and building combos. Tires can set up for kill moves easier. Which one is more important, in the long run? You want to take a stock, right?
Juno McGrath
Smash Hero
Listen to this man ^ he is the only hope we have.
Lord Chair
Smash Master
Sigh, here goes:
Defensive maneuvers are defensive, you will only be able to 'rack' damage with them if your opponent is silly enough to approach you, while you TEMPORARILY have an advantage. You're not playing an offensive game, if you are then it does not really involve advancing, not even if you have a tire. Wario's item throw is slow, Z dropping only serves purpose if you're close to your opponent.
Walling with tires is possible to a certain, weak extent (all attacks either catch or cancel them, tires are stationary when dropped or thrown up or downwards, and therefor do not warrant a lot of (if any) action.
The combos you state are all very creative and are really fun when they work out, but they're pretty much all based on a shielding opponent. Why is your opponent shielding, and standing still? Even without tires, it just pretty much comes down to asking for a Bite, it's quite the terrible strategy.
As you said yourself, getting tires out in the first place may pose to be risky since leaving your bike onstage always has the potential to get you gimped. You do state incorrectly that opponents with tires are difficult opponents per se, that doesn't have to be true. I tend to laugh at MKs and Snakes picking up my tires, since they really pose less of a threat with a silly item that shouldn't ever hurt us in their hands. I've never really been gimped because a tire knocked me off my bike, if it'd ever come to that then you should take your recovery higher.
Our glide tossing is pathetic compared to ROB's, he throws faster, has better distances, glide tossing overall has more synergy with ROB's ground game (the basis of his game, after all) than it has with out air game. Really, terrible comparison. Wario's throw is not necessarily ineffective, it's just below average due to its terrible speed.
To conclude tires: I've never said that they're bad, but it isn't focus-on-worthy. They can net you some nice damage and everyone should know how to use them, but I don't think there's a lot of metagame development we can put to practice on this point (unless people still don't use them in the first place, I cringe every time people just randomly throw them at a shielding opponent, or overestimate the amount of hitstun on those things). Stressing the subject may have had its purpose though, I hope it did.
On nair and jab:
Nair: Actually kills fairly well at 190%. Yeah, 190%, perhaps earlier depending wtf factors like DI and such, I've killed (and am still killing) with it at surprisingly low percentages (140-150%). People tend to get greedy for the kill once they find our their uair is still and they missed their fart, and people should be satisfied with resorting to further damage racking in order to get a near guaranteed kill with less obvious killing moves, like dair and nair. Nair should be used more often overall, covering your landing as a crossup or simply in a million of situations in which most people tend to dair for the sake of using dair. Nair as a damage racker is more reliable since SDI doesn't really affect it (at higher percentages of course). While dair nets you 10% damage maybe, if your opponent doesn't SDI it immediately (really, most of the time you're just hitting with the last 3 or 4 hits anyway), nair nets you at least 9% (fresh, of course) while being quite the bit faster.
As I said earlier, it should be used more often to cover landing instead of airdodge/fair/dair. And yeah it's a decent combo breaker.
Jab: More range than grab, that's what's important. Safer than fsmash, safer than any other ground move you have really. I see people punish a laggy move when their opponent is at 60% with fsmash. Why fsmash? In a lot of cases, jab > grab > pummel > fthrow is guaranteed and does 20-21% damage. Jab has stupid amounts of frame advantage, decent range and a jab cancel does 6%. 6% is quite a lot. I'm not saying people should start spamming it, but I see people preferring other options way too often, I just gave a weak example (hurr punish laggy moves with jab cancels) but you probably understand what I'm trying to say. No longer motivated to extend this post any longer so I'm just posting it, if I have anything else to add I'll do so later, if anything is unclear feel free to comment.
Defensive maneuvers are defensive, you will only be able to 'rack' damage with them if your opponent is silly enough to approach you, while you TEMPORARILY have an advantage. You're not playing an offensive game, if you are then it does not really involve advancing, not even if you have a tire. Wario's item throw is slow, Z dropping only serves purpose if you're close to your opponent.
Walling with tires is possible to a certain, weak extent (all attacks either catch or cancel them, tires are stationary when dropped or thrown up or downwards, and therefor do not warrant a lot of (if any) action.
The combos you state are all very creative and are really fun when they work out, but they're pretty much all based on a shielding opponent. Why is your opponent shielding, and standing still? Even without tires, it just pretty much comes down to asking for a Bite, it's quite the terrible strategy.
As you said yourself, getting tires out in the first place may pose to be risky since leaving your bike onstage always has the potential to get you gimped. You do state incorrectly that opponents with tires are difficult opponents per se, that doesn't have to be true. I tend to laugh at MKs and Snakes picking up my tires, since they really pose less of a threat with a silly item that shouldn't ever hurt us in their hands. I've never really been gimped because a tire knocked me off my bike, if it'd ever come to that then you should take your recovery higher.
Our glide tossing is pathetic compared to ROB's, he throws faster, has better distances, glide tossing overall has more synergy with ROB's ground game (the basis of his game, after all) than it has with out air game. Really, terrible comparison. Wario's throw is not necessarily ineffective, it's just below average due to its terrible speed.
To conclude tires: I've never said that they're bad, but it isn't focus-on-worthy. They can net you some nice damage and everyone should know how to use them, but I don't think there's a lot of metagame development we can put to practice on this point (unless people still don't use them in the first place, I cringe every time people just randomly throw them at a shielding opponent, or overestimate the amount of hitstun on those things). Stressing the subject may have had its purpose though, I hope it did.
On nair and jab:
Nair: Actually kills fairly well at 190%. Yeah, 190%, perhaps earlier depending wtf factors like DI and such, I've killed (and am still killing) with it at surprisingly low percentages (140-150%). People tend to get greedy for the kill once they find our their uair is still and they missed their fart, and people should be satisfied with resorting to further damage racking in order to get a near guaranteed kill with less obvious killing moves, like dair and nair. Nair should be used more often overall, covering your landing as a crossup or simply in a million of situations in which most people tend to dair for the sake of using dair. Nair as a damage racker is more reliable since SDI doesn't really affect it (at higher percentages of course). While dair nets you 10% damage maybe, if your opponent doesn't SDI it immediately (really, most of the time you're just hitting with the last 3 or 4 hits anyway), nair nets you at least 9% (fresh, of course) while being quite the bit faster.
As I said earlier, it should be used more often to cover landing instead of airdodge/fair/dair. And yeah it's a decent combo breaker.
Jab: More range than grab, that's what's important. Safer than fsmash, safer than any other ground move you have really. I see people punish a laggy move when their opponent is at 60% with fsmash. Why fsmash? In a lot of cases, jab > grab > pummel > fthrow is guaranteed and does 20-21% damage. Jab has stupid amounts of frame advantage, decent range and a jab cancel does 6%. 6% is quite a lot. I'm not saying people should start spamming it, but I see people preferring other options way too often, I just gave a weak example (hurr punish laggy moves with jab cancels) but you probably understand what I'm trying to say. No longer motivated to extend this post any longer so I'm just posting it, if I have anything else to add I'll do so later, if anything is unclear feel free to comment.
Strong nair kills decently early offstage.
hunger!
Smash Champion
metagame....development?
wtf....wario's metagame is done folks. The chaingrab percentages pretty much wrapped it up.
wtf....wario's metagame is done folks. The chaingrab percentages pretty much wrapped it up.
Yeah, but hunger hates Wario, Masky.
Padô
Smash Lord
Actually Masky, yes you can beat tornado with it.
I manage to do it quite often. When the Nado pops you up on its first hits you can FF a Nair instead of a Dair and beat MK out of it with it's 1st hitbox, I failed a couple times too and jumping out seems to be A LOT better than trying this.
I manage to do it quite often. When the Nado pops you up on its first hits you can FF a Nair instead of a Dair and beat MK out of it with it's 1st hitbox, I failed a couple times too and jumping out seems to be A LOT better than trying this.
That's not really beating out nado so much as hitting MK out of it. Beating it out means you attack it head on and hit him out of it.