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Meta Knight's Revenge: The Official Match-Up Thread *Wario* -> GO
- Thread starter OverLade
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brinboy789
Smash Champion
why would the tornado destroy the SMALLEST CHAR IN THE GAME??
It destroys him because he has no reliable answer to it. He doesn't have any sure fire moves that can break through it, and grabbing MK won't work if he makes the tornado ending lagless.
The only thing Olimar can do it try to grab MK in his tornado while he is on the ground. To get around that, all MK has to do is hover over his grab range when he comes in.
Maniclysane
Smash Lord
His tornado doesn't, but his nair does. We can't grab him while he's in the air, nair cuts through our Pikmin, he can dtilt when he touches the ground to kill the pikmin we try to grab with. If he overuses his nair, I think our fair can poke through it, maybe. Same with upsmash, but as long as the MK is short hopping it's hard to get under him. Plus MK dominates in the air nd off stage.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Su4ub7DeTy4
Watch at the use of tornado.
Thats why I say ddd is helpless against tornado.
And you dont have to fight with tornado only.
If your opponent waits for a tornado, you can hit him with another attack.
And tornado kills pikmins.
But maybe if the players are better tornado will get more and more useless.
Watch at the use of tornado.
Thats why I say ddd is helpless against tornado.
And you dont have to fight with tornado only.
If your opponent waits for a tornado, you can hit him with another attack.
And tornado kills pikmins.
But maybe if the players are better tornado will get more and more useless.
Deoxys
Smash Lord
Yeah, DDD is 60/40 and Kirby is 55/45. I wouldn't say Tornado destroys Olimar. There's some examples here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iROGQaRwL4Y&feature=related&fmt=18
Deoxys
Smash Lord
Well M2K is the best MK and DDD in the world IIRC, and he says he feels it's not that big of a disadvantage for DDD.Kay, you won.
But maybe 65/35 MK vs DDD?
It seems to be more realistic.
Rh1thmz
Smash Journeyman
Yes, spacing a SL edgeguard isn't too hard, but if you mess up the spacing, you could get bair'ed by Wolf in return...Not the strongest point, I'll admit, but it's not like SL can't be airdodged and avoided easily when you predict it, anyways, and predicting it isn't necessarily the hardest thing to do, either.
Also, about escaping combos, MK's physics make him escape some combos easily, and they make escaping others very difficult (such as grab release combos). Besides, MK's physics aren't necessarily going to help him dodge combos involving Wolf's reflector.
About fair, though...Wolf may not have a whole lot of options when attacked by a SHFair from MK, there's always shielding, and if the MK, for some reason, doesn't space the fair properly, there's always shieldgrabbing...it's not like MK's fair deals a sizable amount of shieldhitstun. After shielding a properly spaced fair, there's always rolling backwards and reseting the situation from there.
Yeah, I gave Wolf too much credit as far as comboing goes, but it's not like Wolf doesn't really combo that well, either. As you know, to mention some combos, he's got:
*Nair --> Reflector --> Dsmash/Fsmash
*Rising, lagless fair --> Usmash (at low percentages)
*Reflector --> Well, depending on the situation, many things
*Bair --> Ftilt (at low percentages)
Deoxys
Smash Lord
That's still pretty terrible for Wolf.
Rh1thmz
Smash Journeyman
I agree that Wolf doesn't have nearly the options that some characters do against MK (which still isn't that many options for those characters). I never tried to say that this match was even for Wolf (or even 60:40 MK or something). I'm just saying that a wall of fairs doesn't necessarily mean that Wolf is getting pwned; there's always rolling, running (probably not running, though), or even boost smashing backwards to gain some space and then trying to disrupt MK's SHFair approach with a blaster or something. MK won't always SHFair to apporach, though.
Also, if the Wolf player sees MK's SHFair coming, couldn't the Wolf theoretically do a rising SH airdodge to avoid it and try a bair/ftilt/(maybe reflector comboing into an ftilt/fsmash) once behind MK?
Master Raven
Smash Master
DDD doesn't get that badly ***** by the tornado if he knows how to handle it. When I played with Seibrik a month ago I was scared to use it a lot against him because he'd Utilt me out of it like 40% of the time, or he'd tilt his shield up and could punish me with... well anything, and there's some of his other moves like Fsmash and Dsmash. He even grabbed me out of starting point of the tornado at least a couple times. Aside from the tornado, from my general experience with DDD (and I live in FL which is probably the most DDD-infested state) I think the DDD matchup is just BARELY 60/40 MK's adv.
Matt07
Smash Master
Hey, I'm from the Mario boards, and we are doing our Match-Up Index chart. We have you listed as 35/65 in Metaknight's favour. If you guys agree/disagree explain your opinions here, thanks 
.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=212008
.http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=212008
Mmac
Smash Lord
I have been thinking... If Bowser is 45:55 with basically an identical, yet inferior to Yoshi's strategy, should Yoshi move up to 50:50?
Yeah, Bowser KO's sooner and has *Sigh* a Shield Game, but Yoshi can escape Combos/Chains easier, Can actually recover against MetaKnight, has an easier time grabbing for the Grab Combos, and has a Projectile to force approaching. I also think he has a more stable Aerial game.
Yeah, Bowser KO's sooner and has *Sigh* a Shield Game, but Yoshi can escape Combos/Chains easier, Can actually recover against MetaKnight, has an easier time grabbing for the Grab Combos, and has a Projectile to force approaching. I also think he has a more stable Aerial game.
I don't think Bowser can really do that well vs MK. Seems more like 60:40 for MK not 55:45.
Mmac, as usual you ignore countless things, when comparing Bowser/Yoshi vs MK...
- Bowser is much heavier and takes much longer to get KO'd
- He can punish MK way better
- He much deals more dmg per hit
- He has more range and better KO moves
If you still think the MK/Yoshi match-up is 55/45 you're a little behind the times - you should've shown us long ago with facts like tourney results, videos etc not some random claims nobody believes anymore (for a good reason).
The MK Bowser match-up is indeed 55/45 MKs favour but Yoshi is rather 4/6 MKs favour.
- Bowser is much heavier and takes much longer to get KO'd
- He can punish MK way better
- He much deals more dmg per hit
- He has more range and better KO moves
If you still think the MK/Yoshi match-up is 55/45 you're a little behind the times - you should've shown us long ago with facts like tourney results, videos etc not some random claims nobody believes anymore (for a good reason).
The MK Bowser match-up is indeed 55/45 MKs favour but Yoshi is rather 4/6 MKs favour.
MrEh
Smash Hero
I don't think so. I think they're both fine where they are. Bowser's strategy may be inferior when compared to Yoshi's, but he has other attributes to make up for it. When you delve deeper into it, his overall strategy differs from Yoshi's slightly. While he doesn't have the Pivot Grab and Usmash defense, he makes up for it by having amazing tilts and a beastly OoS game.
Jabs and tilts are used for spacing, and because of their range, most of Meta's ground approaches can be stopped with a quick jab or a well timed Ftilt. It's not on par with Yoshi's Pivot Grab, but it works surprisingly well. You'd be surprised at how much jabs can accomplish.
As for Meta's aerials, all of them are outranged by Bowser's Utilt. If he's not in a position to use his Utilt, he can Fortress OoS. In fact, Fortress OoS can stop a lot of Meta's attacks. This is one of the things that makes Bowser's strategy kind of different from Yoshi's. Yoshi will almost never shield, and will mostly dodge Meta's attacks instead. Since Yoshi has a lousy shield, where the only merit is that it won't be stabbed by a Nado, Yoshi players have probably trained themselves not to shield unless they absolutely have to. However, most Bowser players live inside of their shield, and it becomes a reflex to shield everything that Meta throws at them.
Yoshi mostly relies on beating Meta's approaches outright by a combination of grabs, eggs, and the occasional Usmash to stop an aerial. A fair amount of the time, Bowser will not try to beat out or interrupt Meta's attacks. He will instead shield and counterattack accordingly. Bowser punishes mistakes, and as soon as he sees one, he'll strike. So in my mind, as silly as it sounds, I usually think of Yoshi's playstyle as interrupting everything that Meta does. Whereas Bowser is just reaction to what Meta does. (it sounds silly, I know)
While Bowser's grab is much harder to land on Meta then Yoshi's, Bowser ***** Meta out of a grab much harder then Yoshi does. First of all, his chaingrab is better since it can force ground releases, meaning that Bowser can grab Meta more times without making him move so much from his jump release. With a good chaingrab, Bowser might be able to do upwards of 30% on Meta, and that's not even including if he did a Klaw or and Fair at the end of it. Granted, Yoshi does has that spike on Meta from a chaingrab, but that's never a guaranteed thing, since you need to be properly spaced from the ledge. Bowser obviously doesn't have a spike, but his grab releases give him huge amounts of options against Meta. For example, he can chaingrab Meta to the ledge, and if Meta gets a ground release, Bowser can Dtilt him. If Meta gets a jump release, he can Fair him. If Bowser is ahead one stock, he can jump release into a Bowsercide.
Bowser can KO Meta with nearly everything every move in his repertoire. Granted, some of the moves aren't really usable, like his Usmash and Dsmash, but he will nearly always have a killing move for many situations. It certainly makes it difficult to predict which killing move he's going to use, and that makes it so awesome. Yoshi, while having a decent amount of killing moves, it more limited in this sense. Viable attacks that Bowser can kill Meta with are...
- A Utilt that beats Meta's aerial, or a Utilt through a platform
- Fortress OoS
- An Ftilt that was probably used for spacing
- Dtilt out of a grab release
- An offstage Fair or an Fair out of a grab release
- An offstage Bair
- Bowsercide out of a grab release, or because of the Meta player's stupidity
- Even if you're not in a position to Bowsercide, the Klaw can still kill
- Bowser Bomb out of a grab release
- And of course, a Uair
Yoshi on the other hand, has less amounts of usable killing moves, making it easier to predict which killing move he's going to attempt.
- Usmash that beats Meta's aerial
- A well spaced Fsmash
- Fair spike out of a grab release, or because of the Meta player's stupidity
- Offstage Nair
- A quick Uair
- Yoshi Bomb
No arguments here, but Bowser can use the Fortress to escape from a lot of things.
If Bowser is getting gimped by Meta, then he's doing it wrong.
The Fortress, while being predictable, cuts through a lot of things due to its invincibility frames and priority. It's harder to gimp a competent Bowser then most people think. No arguments here.
Mmac
Smash Lord
When I said "Can KO Better", the second and third ones is what I meant. I wouldn't take Heavier into account, especially when Yoshi is pretty heavy himself and will probably take much more damage quicker if he gets in his defence.
My "Claims" have been nothing but truth and facts, and I have backed it up with "true" facts, but it seems like you guys just don't care. In fact, I can accuse Mreh of doing the exact same thing and dismiss his facts as false because he isn't backing them up with results. He doesn't need results to back up his claims. In fact, I find his facts and data more precise and truthful than "Oh, Bowser is in Mid Tier and some Bowser beat this redeeming MetaKnight main some months ago, He's totally Neutral! Yoshi is Low Tier and has less Professional Mains to back them up. Bowser > Yoshi Lawl!" Who seriously bases Matchups Like this?!
In fact, I wouldn't be surprised that you only believe Bowser is better against MetaKnight than Yoshi just due to the sole fact Bowser is in Mid Tier and is more popular on the competitive scene compared to Yoshi, and only that.
To Mreh: Hmmm... I could have sworn Aerial Fortress didn't have the invinvibility frames compared to grounded ones, I could swore I could knock him out of the first frames from his recovery with Dair's.... maybe I am just mistaken....
I still think compared to Yoshi, Bowser is alot less stable in this matchup compared to Bowser. I think that alone makes Yoshi slightly better to use.
Mreh is still much funner to discuss with, and actually makes me learn about Bowser and what he can do
Infinitysmash
Smash Champion
Don't take this the wrong way dude, but you also think that the Metaknight vs Yoshi matchup is in Yoshi's favor and won't listen to anyone about it, MMac. Even after ground has been laid out showing you why the match isn't as good as you think it is you refuse to listen to the Metaknight end of the discussion.
Yes, the matchup is close, but I honestly don't understand how it could be in Yoshi's favor after playing the matchup literally thousands of times and only on occasion do I come out with a loss. Plus, I play with Bwett who is a very, very well renowned Yoshi player who has proven time and again that he is one of the best (just look up his videos against Dojo some time, it's pretty ****ing awesome) and who has agreed that this match is definitely not in Yoshi's favor. How can you argue with numbers like that dude?
Yes, the matchup is close, but I honestly don't understand how it could be in Yoshi's favor after playing the matchup literally thousands of times and only on occasion do I come out with a loss. Plus, I play with Bwett who is a very, very well renowned Yoshi player who has proven time and again that he is one of the best (just look up his videos against Dojo some time, it's pretty ****ing awesome) and who has agreed that this match is definitely not in Yoshi's favor. How can you argue with numbers like that dude?
Mmac
Smash Lord
You know... I have never said it was in Yoshi's favour... and 50:50/45:55 isn't in Yoshi's favour......
Why do you keep saying like I act that Yoshi completely demolishes MetaKnight? I am well aware what MetaKnight can do, and I don't act like that at all.
Why do you keep saying like I act that Yoshi completely demolishes MetaKnight? I am well aware what MetaKnight can do, and I don't act like that at all.
Bwett
Smash Ace
There is no way, absolutely No Way, it is an even matchup. I could be tempted to compromise with 55:45 in MK's favor but that is stretching it.
60:40 in MK's favor. Most of us are agreeing except you Mmac. If you really want to change it, you only have two options:
1) Wait until later when more stuff is discovered
2) Go out there and find Yoshi's that wreck MK
Either way, just drop the subject for now
I don't mean to be harsh but it's getting really irritating having to come back to a currently dead subject.
60:40 in MK's favor. Most of us are agreeing except you Mmac. If you really want to change it, you only have two options:
1) Wait until later when more stuff is discovered
2) Go out there and find Yoshi's that wreck MK
Either way, just drop the subject for now
I don't mean to be harsh but it's getting really irritating having to come back to a currently dead subject.
Dojo
Smash Champion
Just bring him to me. I'll change his mind.
Sushi-Man
Smash Ace
You gotta love this guyJust bring him to me. I'll change his mind.
MrEh
Smash Hero
I actually believe Bowser is better then Yoshi just because of the Utilt. HHAHAHAH!!!
Nah, aerial Fortress has invincibility. I'm pretty sure about that.
Legic
Smash Cadet
thanks for the information
Tero.
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Jul 18, 2008
- Messages
- 2,686
Sushi-Man
Smash Ace
Affinity, do you mind doing peach. I am having second doubts about this match-up after facing forte's peach.
Affinity
Smash Hero
Peach section in up; waiting for input.
60-40 at least for MK. You out range her bad on the ground, just stick with tilts if she wants to fight on the ground. If you see Peach approaching with a floating Dair or Fair you can either Upb through it from the ground, try to dair them from above, or wait for them to stop (For Dair you can just Fair them sometimes but for their Fair I just either wait or Upb that sucker.)
For turnips, either catch them or just avoid them. Edgeguarding, I usually don't bother too much with it unless she is sent fairly low and is forced to float for awhile or die. As for her edgeguarding you, you usually can go high enough to where she can't hit you and find a safe way down or just be creative and not overly repetitive.
That's it, it's a pretty straightforward match IMO, just abuse your range on the ground with tilts and either abuse your range in the air, your invincibility frames with grounded Upb's, or just reposition yourself and stay out of danger. There's not much more to it than that IMO.
For turnips, either catch them or just avoid them. Edgeguarding, I usually don't bother too much with it unless she is sent fairly low and is forced to float for awhile or die. As for her edgeguarding you, you usually can go high enough to where she can't hit you and find a safe way down or just be creative and not overly repetitive.
That's it, it's a pretty straightforward match IMO, just abuse your range on the ground with tilts and either abuse your range in the air, your invincibility frames with grounded Upb's, or just reposition yourself and stay out of danger. There's not much more to it than that IMO.
Deoxys
Smash Lord
Bowser can't follow up with a down-b spike after a grab release? I would think he could. Also, don't forget that Bowser wins a Bowsercide when they both have just 1 stock.
That would be a waste of your talent. I'm closer and I'll suffice.Just bring him to me. I'll change his mind.
Stuff like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t11GYdJ0Gd0 is why Mmac says it's 55/45 Yoshi or even.
Tero.
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Jul 18, 2008
- Messages
- 2,686
Yeah i was talking bout ground game mostly.
Does Peachs Fair beat MK Fair if they are on the same level ? (if peach is above mk she would most likely beat mk fair because her fair hitbox goes down; oh man i would love to have some hitbox pictures of brawl)
Does Peachs Fair beat MK Fair if they are on the same level ? (if peach is above mk she would most likely beat mk fair because her fair hitbox goes down; oh man i would love to have some hitbox pictures of brawl)
Master Raven
Smash Master
We should get some input from Edrees.
Dojo
Smash Champion
Lol. Let's try not putting stuff up when I'm dead at 4am. Lets try the next day in tourney when I played him. I 2 and 3 stocked him the very next day first round in the bracket at Hobo11 after pools.Bowser can't follow up with a down-b spike after a grab release? I would think he could. Also, don't forget that Bowser wins a Bowsercide when they both have just 1 stock.
That would be a waste of your talent. I'm closer and I'll suffice.
Stuff like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t11GYdJ0Gd0 is why Mmac says it's 55/45 Yoshi or even.
Deoxys
Smash Lord
But no vids to show Mmac?
Affinity
Smash Hero
Just messaged him. Hopefully he can give us some insight by tomorrow.
Dojo
Smash Champion
Lol honestly I dont care what Mmac really thinks. He's just a silly Yoshi after all.
Tero.
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Jul 18, 2008
- Messages
- 2,686
More Peach stuff:
If they approach with float and then dair you can just shield the dair and hit her with nair oos if you time it right. If they float and then fair shield and wait for her to jab and grab her after the seccond jab.
Tornado is pretty good iirc becasue it goes through turnips.
If the peach is on the ground you should do fine with tilts, because you simply outrange her.
For edgeguarding you have to hit her before she does her up B.
Edit:
Videos:
Plank vs Azen
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TzMqIQmZRyI
Eggz vs Praxis
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0XFwqfSOWE
If they approach with float and then dair you can just shield the dair and hit her with nair oos if you time it right. If they float and then fair shield and wait for her to jab and grab her after the seccond jab.
Tornado is pretty good iirc becasue it goes through turnips.
If the peach is on the ground you should do fine with tilts, because you simply outrange her.
For edgeguarding you have to hit her before she does her up B.
Edit:
Videos:
Plank vs Azen
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TzMqIQmZRyI
Eggz vs Praxis
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0XFwqfSOWE
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