Meta Knight's Revenge: The Official Match-Up Thread *Wario* -> GO

[Affinity]

Enjoy your sticky.

Thanks

 

[Bob Jane T-Mart]

Geese, i now know why Meta Knight is in the top tear. In all his match-ups he has an advantage. Thanks for the awesome info!

 

[Deoxys]

Geese, i now know why Meta Knight is in the top tear. In all his match-ups he has an advantage. Thanks for the awesome info!

OMG. WELCOME TO SMASHBOARDS!!! Thanks for the lulz.

 

[Sushi-Man]

OMG. WELCOME TO SMASHBOARDS!!! Thanks for the lulz.

Just because he is new, doesn't mean you have to be an a$$

 

[Deoxys]

Just because he is new, doesn't mean you have to be an a$$

I'm not being an ***. He said "geese" for godsake.

 

[iRjOn]

Ehh I'll get Santi from T.Link Boards and Dojo will be here soon so that'll help...

 

[Deoxys]

I feel that Rob, DK, and Wolf are both more in MK's favor than this thread states. Snake is definitely not in MK's favor. I mean MK can't do better than Delfino or JJ with his Snake CP, but Snake has multiple good MK CPs. Also, many of the best Olimars say it's 45/55 against MK for them at worst, if not even. I'm far too lazy to detail all of the claims I've made here at once, so tell me which you agree with least/is least intuitive and I'll elaborate on that matchup first.

Edit: I think Broken Arrow will say 65/35 MK.

 

[Affinity]

I feel that Rob, DK, and Wolf are both more in MK's favor than this thread states.

What do you believe they are?

Snake is definitely not in MK's favor.

Snake does not has the advantage over MK. I don't care what anyone says.

I mean MK can't do better than Delfino or JJ with his Snake CP, but Snake has multiple good MK CPs.

MK wrecks Snake on Battlefield and Rainbow Cruise. I know this from personal tournament experience.

And what are these multiple counterpicks that Snake has to use against MK?

 

[Deoxys]

What do you believe they are?


Snake does not has the advantage over MK. I don't care what anyone says.


MK wrecks Snake on Battlefield and Rainbow Cruise. I know this from personal tournament experience.

And what are these multiple counterpicks that Snake has to use against MK?

I'd say ROB is at least 65/35 MK, and I'd say Wolf is 75/25. I really believe Wolf is MK's best matchup outside of low tier. I have more DK experience than the other characters I'm discussing, and I'd put it at 60/40, although with Skyworld legal it's like 70/30. If DK bans Skyworld, he gets ***** on RC, if DK bans RC, he gets ***** on Skyworld.

I know MK wrecks Snake on RC, but I didn't think BF was that lopsided. Good point, though; I didn't know what the best CP against a Snake that bans RC was. So you'd say BF is better than Japes against Snake?

Brinstar, Halberd, and Yoshi's Island (Melee). Smashville and FD are good also, albeit weaker than the aformentioned. I'm not saying that Snake has an advantage over MK (I think he does have a 55/45 advantage against him), but I'm saying that MK doesn't have an advantage against Snake, either.

 

[Vorguen]

Yeah I used to main Wolf and MK was death.

 

[Sosuke]

I'm sure Dojo and Santi have more stuff then me, but I'll give it a shot. =)

Toon Link boards discussion on MK:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=192975
(It was a while ago, you can fix whatever seems wrong there)
----------

~I don't think MK is at a risk when recovering, except from below. As in like, Yoshi's Island and you have to glide up to grab the edge. I would think that you could get spiked then. So just avoid that and recover high.

~MK can Dair Toon Link's spin attack and tether (before he grabs the edge). You can just grab the edge and drop -> Dair.

~MK shouldn't give much breathing room to TL. Don't let him get his projectiles out and usually used in unison with each other. If you give the Toon Link room, expect 2-4 projectiles flying at you. If you ever DO find yourself at a distance, jump/tornado/ whatever to get up close again.

~You can glide toss his bombs if you feel it will help you.

~If you repeatedly jump and Dair Toon Link' shield from diagonally above him, there's pretty much nothing he can do. You can tornado in the same way also.

~If your within the range of his Zair, you should be avoiding it.

----------

As for stage banning, idk. Viet said this:

CP: Final Destination or Delfino
Ban: Rainbow Cruise/Pokemon Stadium I (high ceiling is HIGH) or whatever.

So go with this:

CP: Rainbow Cruise/Pokemon Stadium I.Ban: Final Destination or Delfino
Ban: Final Destination or Delfino


Thats all I have for now. ^_^;

 

[Deoxys]

In retrospect, I agree with 60/40 against ROB.

 

[Bob Jane T-Mart]

I mean MK can't do better than Delfino or JJ with his Snake CP, but Snake has multiple good MK CPs.

I disagree, When I play as Snake, against Meta Knight, (I main as both) I find it harder to win then if I play as Meta Knight, and i need to try harder. The reason being Meta Knight has so much faster moves than Snake and longer reach. You either stay back and lay mines, or run forward to connect Snakes deadly tilts.

You're probably right about counterpicking but the sheer speed and reach of Meta Knight outweighs that.

 

[Deoxys]

I disagree, When I play as Snake, against Meta Knight, (I main as both) I find it harder to win then if I play as Meta Knight, and i need to try harder. The reason being Meta Knight has so much faster moves than Snake and longer reach. You either stay back and lay mines, or run forward to connect Snakes deadly tilts.

You're probably right about counterpicking but the sheer speed and reach of Meta Knight outweighs that.

It's probably just that Snake takes more skill to master than MK. Mines aren't really that important, a lot of it is grabs. How hard it is to play perfectly is irrelevant to how favorable the matchup is when you do so.

 

[Dojo]

Hmm


Some tips for the TL matchup:

-Perfect shielding all his projectiles makes things so much easier.

-Try to keep constant pressure on him, so you don't have a million projectiles being thrown all at once. The less projectiles he pulls out, the better.

-Perfect shielding his zair usually results in a grab for you.

-Don't underestimate his aerials. That nair comes out quick.

-Dair is your edgeguarding move for this match. He usually tries to come up from beneath. (Santi does at least) Just space yourself so you don't get caught in his up-B as he's coming up. If you dair him and he goes towards the stage, that can lead into a Shuttle loop'd stage spike.



There's really not much to it. I just play super aggressive and stay aware of all of his projectiles. If I think of anything else, I'll post it later. I'm lazy right now. Work in an hour.

 

[Omega_Star]

Wolf's reflector will break the tornado, probably in part due to the invincibility frame at the beginning.

 

[Affinity]

Wolf's reflector will break the tornado, probably in part due to the invincibility frame at the beginning.

You want me to credit you as Omega Star or Zinth in the guide? I remember you went by Zinth at Oh Snap.

 

[Staco]

I think ROB really sucks versus MK
its like 70:30 and worse
he cant do anything against the tornado
the only thing he really can do is spam lasers and gyro
if he attacks meta out of air, one tornado > over all of robs airs

if the mk uses tornado its 80:20
if he uses no tornado its 70:30, maybe

 

[Sesshomuronay]

Wolf vs MK is probably 70/30. Any more would be a little too much.

 

[Staco]

I think maybe 65:35

wolf can spam neutral b, and down b has got infinite frames
fsmash can be used against the spacing

 

[Deoxys]

I think ROB really sucks versus MK
its like 70:30 and worse
he cant do anything against the tornado
the only thing he really can do is spam lasers and gyro
if he attacks meta out of air, one tornado > over all of robs airs

I think maybe 65:35

wolf can spam neutral b, and down b has got infinite frames
fsmash can be used against the spacing

*facepalm*

Spamming neutral b doesn't do anything against a smart MK. Also, you're thinking invincibility frames. Finally, MK's spaced attacks outprioritize Fsmash.

ROB has aerials that beat Mach Tornado at certain angles.

Seriously, I can't even see myself losing to a Wolf main of equal skill 30% of best 2-out-of-3 matches. Even 75/25 feels generous to me. I assume MK is Wolf's worst matchp by a mile, right?

 

[Infinitysmash]

*facepalm*

Spamming neutral b doesn't do anything against a smart MK. Also, you're thinking invincibility frames. Finally, MK's spaced attacks outprioritize Fsmash.

ROB has aerials that beat Mach Tornado at certain angles.

Seriously, I can't even see myself losing to a Wolf main of equal skill 30% of best 2-out-of-3 matches. Even 75/25 feels generous to me. I assume MK is Wolf's worst matchp by a mile, right?

No way. Wolf's worst matchups are DeDeDe and Falco by a large margin dude.

 

[Omega_Star]

You want me to credit you as Omega Star or Zinth in the guide? I remember you went by Zinth at Oh Snap.

Zinth, if you would be so kind I need to get on to getting my account name changed somehow, lol...

 

[Deoxys]

No way. Wolf's worst matchups are DeDeDe and Falco by a large margin dude.

Wow, those matchups must be terrible. I'm surprised Wolf is considered to be high on the tier list when MK, DDD, and Falco obliterate him.

 

[Mmac]

Wow, those matchups must be terrible. I'm surprised Wolf is considered to be high on the tier list when MK, DDD, and Falco obliterate him.

Yeah, but those are the only ones that obliterate him. Plus, he is only disadvantaged against 3 other characters, with the rest Advantages/Neutrals.

His is pretty much mirrored to Yoshi's Matchup's, except a few more Neutrals, and more importanly, no Hard Counters/Impossibles, Actually his might actually be better than Wolf's. Yoshi REALLY needs more support and representation.

Also remember, DK gets destroyed by Dedede, yet he is still High tier...

 

[Master Raven]

65/35 in the MK/Wolf matchup sounds reasonable. DDD ***** Wolf even worse than MK.

 

[Staco]

yes in theory rob has got arials, who beat mk
in theory
nothing more
and to play rob to get in the position to beat tornado all the time is ****ing bad, because you have to change your playstyle completly ...

 

[Sesshomuronay]

Did you know that if wolf's B-air is spaced right it beasts MK's aerials? Well thats what I've heard.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Deoxys, you're stupid. You don't know anything about Wolfs match-up's so don't talk about them as if you knew them. Dedede and Falco are his worst match-up's by a mile. MK is 3rd but that's about it. After that only Sheik has the advantage over him and it's only 6/4. Wolf has 3 hard counters but only 1 soft counter and even despite these facts he still has good tourney results - without having an uber pro player like other high tier charactes have (ChuDat, Bum, Azen) so stfu about Wolf having no high tier potential. The only reason why he isn't top tier or why he even has disadvantaged match-up's are the game's physics. 2 of the **** match-up's are only bag because of the Chainspike / Edge-infinite and even Sheik doesn't **** him despite the ******** ftilt lock. Wolf would destroy characters like Pikachu if it weren't for their CGs.

...

The match-up is 7/3 or 65/35. I think it's the latter for good reasons (Wolf bair outranging all of MKs moves except ftilt, having weigth and KO advantage, ...). And don't mention gimping. None of MKs moves can put Wolf into a gimpable position. Just saying.
Yea MK is bad for Wolf but then again, he's just a lot better overall with less weaknesses...

 

[Rh1thmz]

I do a fair amount of brawling with both of these characters, so I'll try and chip in.

Obviously, Wolf has very good aerial speed; his bair, uair, and nair have nearly zero landing, and rising fairs have no lag because Wolf finishes the rising fair before he hits the ground. Combine this with an excellent bair and good other aerials (and, sometimes, the reflector), and you have yourself an adversary who no one should take lightly in the air.

I agree with Gheb about the gimping point; it's not nearly as easy to gimp a Wolf as one might think. Wolf's most definitely not coming back with his up-B every time, people...he's still got a good side-B to recover with, too. If the MK spaces the shuttle loop gimp attempt improperly and gets his shuttle loop airdodged, Wolf can very quickly make MK the one who is recovering with a quick, C-sticked bair due to his aerial speed. MK's dair, his best gimping tool, isn't even as good against Wolf as it is against a lot of characters because Wolf can just DJ if he needs to/has one left and side-B onto the stage. Getting Wolf damaged enough to go far enough off the stage from MK's dair will take a fair amount of time because of Wolf's heavy weight. In conclusion, gimping Wolf with MK isn't as easy as most people believe it to be.

While Wolf may be at a sizable disadvantage against MK, the matchup is definitely not as favorable for MK as many believe it to be, and it's definitely not better than 70/30 for MK. Wolf is still good at comboing, and MK is not exactly the character whose physics best avoid most combos. While Wolf may have a hard time getting past Galaxia's range and priority (especially when used in an ftilt =\ ), he is still a dangerous character when he gets past it. Any MK who lacks experience in this matchup and just walks in to this matchup thinking that MK can just mindlessly outprioritize Wolf will be in for a rough ride.

 

[Deoxys]

Deoxys, you're stupid. You don't know anything about Wolfs match-up's so don't talk about them as if you knew them. Dedede and Falco are his worst match-up's by a mile. MK is 3rd but that's about it. After that only Sheik has the advantage over him and it's only 6/4. Wolf has 3 hard counters but only 1 soft counter and even despite these facts he still has good tourney results - without having an uber pro player like other high tier charactes have (ChuDat, Bum, Azen) so stfu about Wolf having no high tier potential.

I'm not stupid, don't be mean. LOL, where did I talk about Wolf's matchups as if I knew them? Learn to read, lol; another thing that I never said was that Wolf doesn't have high tier potential. I said I was surprised that the SBR would end high tier with a character that is hard countered by like 30% of the metagame, rather than stopping the tier at Kirby.

Also, I highly doubt bair outranges ftilt.

If the MK spaces the shuttle loop gimp attempt improperly and gets his shuttle loop airdodged, Wolf can very quickly make MK the one who is recovering with a quick, C-sticked bair due to his aerial speed. MK's dair, his best gimping tool, isn't even as good against Wolf as it is against a lot of characters because Wolf can just DJ if he needs to/has one left and side-B onto the stage.
[...]
Wolf is still good at comboing, and MK is not exactly the character whose physics best avoid most combos. While Wolf may have a hard time getting past Galaxia's range and priority (especially when used in an ftilt =\ ), he is still a dangerous character when he gets past it. Any MK who lacks experience in this matchup and just walks in to this matchup thinking that MK can just mindlessly outprioritize Wolf will be in for a rough ride.

Are you talking about MK trying to shuttle loop Wolf during his third jump? Otherwise, spacing a shuttle loop edgeguard is really easy IMO. Also, I always felt MK was pretty good at avoiding most combos. What can Wolf do to get past fair?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I'm not stupid, don't be mean.

Sorry bro

LOL, where did I talk about Wolf's matchups as if I knew them? Learn to read, lol;
another thing that I never said was that Wolf doesn't have high tier potential. I said I was surprised that the SBR would end high tier with a character that is hard countered by like 30% of the metagame, rather than stopping the tier at Kirby.

Well it's kinda the same thing. Besides Kirby apparently has hard counters too (G&W + Marth iirc) and a whole bunch of disadvantages

Edit: KK i looked it up at the kirby boards aand he has 6 soft counters. I think 3 hard counters isn't a lot worse...

Also, I highly doubt bair outranges ftilt.

No but at max range it beats every other move!

@Rh1thmz

Wolf can't combo at all

@Mmac

Don't compare Wolf with Yoshi. Yoshi ... isn't good face it. He isn't really good at anything and his match-up's are good amounts worse

 

[Luigi player]

The worst thing about Wolf vs MK is probably Wolfs sucky recovery. Other than that I think Wolf can do well.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

The worst thing about Wolf vs MK is probably Wolfs sucky recovery. Other than that I think Wolf can do well.

On the contrary. His recovery is almost never an issue. MK is just overall better. His jedi sword beats everything that isn't max ranged, MK is good amounts faster ...

...even if Wolfs recovery was better he'd still clearly lose...

 

[Mmac]

Don't compare Wolf with Yoshi. Yoshi ... isn't good face it. He isn't really good at anything and his match-up's are good amounts worse

It just depends on how you look at the matchups. Yes, Wolf has tons more advantages, but you can't honestly tell me that 3 Hard Counters won't keep him down.

Also Wolf's Recovery isn't bad, it's just very stiff. As long as you have good aim, you should recover just fine.

 

[Sesshomuronay]

Wolf isnt that bad. The only really bad matchups are the 2 chaingrabber of cheapness and metaknight.

Its too bad that each of those characters are widely used...

 

[Staco]

Whats the ddd matchup versus mk?
I heard it should be really balanced, but I think its in mks favor.
DDD just has no chance against meta.
Tornado destroys him.
He cant chaingrab mk, mk can dair camp against him.
DDD cant really techcase, because its simple to get out of his dthrow techcase. (you can tech to get out better)

Why do people think ddd has got a chance? Oo

What should ddd do against a metaknight?

 

[Gates]

Whats the ddd matchup versus mk?
I heard it should be really balanced, but I think its in mks favor.
DDD just has no chance against meta.
Tornado destroys him.
He cant chaingrab mk, mk can dair camp against him.
DDD cant really techcase, because its simple to get out of his dthrow techcase. (you can tech to get out better)

Why do people think ddd has got a chance? Oo

What should ddd do against a metaknight?

Balanced? lol where did you hear that? Dedede doesn't have an auto-loss against Metaknight but it's far from balanced.

From my matchup thread:

METAKNIGHT

DIFFICULTY: HARD - 40:60
CHAINGRAB: NO​

This matchup is a rough one, but probably the best to know since you’ll most likely be seeing Metaknight more than any of your other counters. There’s not much to say about MK that isn’t really common knowledge...he’s fast, he combos well, he gimps very well, and his Tornado is widely regarded as the gayest move in the game. He can rack up damage on you like nobody’s business, he can’t be chaingrabbed (without tech chasing), and he can land every single hit of the tornado on you if you don’t break out of it or DI (many Metaknights like to start the match this way). Fortunately, it’s not completely hopeless.

Dedede has several moves that can break out of the tornado (see anti-tornado attack list): Dtilt, Dsmash, Dair, Bair, and Inhale (Gordos can also break out of it, but good luck pulling one). Of these, your best option is probably ffBair, with Dair and Dtilt coming in close behind. Dsmash should be used if the MK attempts a tornado at higher percentages since it will probably kill him or at least set him up for a kill. If you’re feeling lucky you can take M2K’s old advice of DIing up and mashing airdodge, but you’ll probably take more damage from trying to do that than from just Bair or Dairing. Or, if the MK doesn’t start the tornado right next to you, you can just shield the whole thing, but most Metaknights are used to shield poking so don’t be surprised if it doesn’t bother them much.

Due to Metaknight’s light weight (and also his great horizontal recovery), it’s best to try to kill him off the top, which is great news since Dedede has perhaps the second best Utilt in the game (behind Snake) and his Usmash is very solid as well, killing almost as early as Utilt but having more range and being able to do it out of a dash. Dsmash sends them up as well, which makes it good for tech chasing, killing, or setting up for a kill, as mentioned above. Another good option for killing is the Dededecide.

“What? Gates, you can’t be serious, Dededecide will rarely work and there’s no effing way I’m going to incorporate it into my gameplan,” you’re saying to yourself right now. But it does work quite well. If you’re off the stage and MK is trying to edgeguard or Wall of Pain you, a Dededecide can be the right move if you’re tied or a stock ahead. If they’re edgeguarding, even threatening an inhale by the ledge can make them back up and give you some space to recover.

Spacing is extremely important in this matchup, so be sure to use that Ftilt. Don’t abuse it though because it’s kind of laggy and if you overuse it MK can just approach you from different angles. In addition to the Dededecides mentioned before, Inhale can also be great for messing with MK’s approaches by pausing them for a sec. You can easily force him to approach through Waddle Dee toss, but you might not even need to since most MKs love approaching anyway. And most importantly in this matchup, STAY ON THE GROUND. As much priority as Bair has, MK’s aerials are way better than yours and Shuttle Loop can be very dangerous.

Good Stages:
Final Destination, Yoshi’s Island (Brawl), Halberd, Pokemon Stadium 1, Pictochat, Corneria​

Generally you want large stages where you can distance yourself from MK. Stages with low ceilings are good too since you’ll be KOing him off the top a majority of the time.

Bad Stages:
Battlefield, Lylat Cruise, Luigi’s Mansion, Norfair, Rainbow Cruise, Yoshi’s Island Melee​

Smaller stages that abuse platforms, moving stages…generally anywhere Dedede doesn’t have a lot of room to move around in and stages that really make his speed a disadvantage. Luigi’s Mansion may seem like a reasonable idea due to its size, but in reality the areas on the first floor where you can’t jump up to the second essentially form boxes where MK can trap you and **** you with tornado.

tl;dr version: Dedede has more range than MK, several moves that can go through Tornado, including his Bair of ridiculous priority, and Dedede's Utilt kills MK at about 95%.

 

[Mmac]

I like to know how Kirby does against MetaKnight. According to their thread, he's 45:55 against him.

He hasen't been brought up much

 

[Affinity]

I like to know how Kirby does against MetaKnight. According to their thread, he's 45:55 against him.

He hasen't been brought up much

It's either 45-55 or 40-60 easily.

I found a good explanation of how the match-up looks from Kirby's point of view:

[Kirby has] a good match-up against MK. It's funny because Kirby is also a character that doesn't have many weaknesses: he's small, hard to hit, has a quick grab with crazy grab range, one of the best f-smashes in the game, a b-air that goes through almost all of MK's moves, a nice 0% - 35%+ combo, great recovery, and very useful tilts.

Here's what you do.
1.) Perfect the timing for nailing f-smashes or grabs on MK's that air dodge toward the ground from the air. The only thing MK can do against Kirby when he's above him is spaced d-airs; besides that, he's completely vulnerable. When an MK is trying to attack from above, just shield and respond with an up-tilt or a quick b-air.

2.) Once MK's stop trying to attack from above, they'll realize they have a better chance coming at you face to face. However, since MK is always in the air (or can be knocked in the air), it's good for you always position yourself under MK by running under him and trying to stay under him. The reason for this is because when MK -really- wants to land to get his ground game going, the most habitual tactic is to air dodge to the ground. As said before well-timed f-smashes and grabs will get you either an early kill, or a grab that will put MK back into the air to repeat the process.

3.) Speaking of grabs, always f-throw at 0%. At low %'s, do d-throw. If the MK doesn't DI correctly, you CAN combo this into an aerial.

4.) Space your b-airs. It's almost IMPOSSIBLE for a MK to break Kirby's WOP since he can immediately follow up his b-air with an up-tilt. If you space correctly and patiently, most MK's will switch to a style where they come dash in range and shield in order to make you whiff. If you can SEE this play style developing, be a step ahead and go in for a dash grab.

5.) Once they feel uncomfortable with the ground/shield game, MK's will then attempt to space their f-airs either defensively or offensively. If it's defensively, it's a WOP battle, but if its offensively... hooray! Your b-air goes through his f-air each time if you space it correctly.

6.) Edgeguard MK. Again, your b-air is awesome. It goes through his glide attack. If he tries to smarten up and tries to use tornado, have a f-smash prepped because guess what...? F-smash also goes through tornado. This is how you can get so many kills against MK because most of them won't be DI'ing correctly and/or expecting it.

Asidioh, I could go ON and ON and ON about this match-up. The most important thing I can tell you is that you're not losing to MK just because MK is a better character. You're mainly losing to MK because you're not thinking ahead enough steps in the future. Great players find patterns and habits before the end of the first stock. If you get better at this (mindgames), it will make your matches against MK infinitely easier. Guaranteed.

*To Everyone Else*
If I wanted to beat MK's without using MK, I would choose between Snake, Diddy, Olimar, Kirby, and Wario. I would also try to use MK ALOT so I could understand his pros and cons a little better.