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Meta Knight's Revenge: The Official Match-Up Thread *Wario* -> GO
- Thread starter OverLade
- Start date
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Affinity
Smash Hero
Bowser Section Added.
I'm very hesitant, however, to believe the match-up is 55-45, or anymore in Bowser's favor. I understand Bowser can chaingrab MK, but in order to chaingrab MK you have to grab him; this will be very difficult to do when playing against a decent MK.
Low Rider1717
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Oct 30, 2008
- Messages
- 72
yeah but bowser has that breath to rack up damage
MK is light so he isnt too hard to kill
and bowser wont be going for the grabs to often
sheild grabbing is hard enough on a MK
id say 65/35 to MK
MK is light so he isnt too hard to kill
and bowser wont be going for the grabs to often
sheild grabbing is hard enough on a MK
id say 65/35 to MK
Mmac
Smash Lord
Deoxys
Smash Lord
Against expert Bowsers it's not that far in expert MK's favor. Not just because of the CG.
Mmac
Smash Lord
This could need a bump...
So now that their is talk that Pokemon Stadium 1 is going to be a permanent Neutral now, this makes Yoshi even more tough because he is always now going to have some form of advantage on the first round pick. I can safely say that Yoshi is dead even now, if the person plays the stages right.
So now that their is talk that Pokemon Stadium 1 is going to be a permanent Neutral now, this makes Yoshi even more tough because he is always now going to have some form of advantage on the first round pick. I can safely say that Yoshi is dead even now, if the person plays the stages right.
Deoxys
Smash Lord
Great point! I didn't even think of this.
ADHD
Smash Hero
My diddy thing is bad I wrote it when I was a noob, let me rewrite it please? 
Master Raven
Smash Master
No.
Even if I don't have much experience in MK vs Bowser I call bull**** on this method of determining the matchup. You really think his grabs are the only thing he's got going for MK? I'd actually ask Bowser players experienced with the matchup against good MKs so we can get some actual input on it first.
Perhaps we can invite Sliq and a few other notable players into this discussion?
Popertop
Smash Champion
Ftilt is really good. Beats tornado and if you are too far to grab i will ftilt you.
Dtilt out of chaingrab is too good, and it beats shuttle loop.
That's pretty much all I know, if someone like SLiQ comes in here he can tell you more.
Dtilt out of chaingrab is too good, and it beats shuttle loop.
That's pretty much all I know, if someone like SLiQ comes in here he can tell you more.
5ive
Smash Champion
Those pictures were epic win, might I add.
Infinitysmash
Smash Champion
Having played the bajeesus out of these matches: I'm going to post an update to the Falco, Snake, Marth and Yoshi matchups either tonight or tomorrow.
That and I figured I should start contributing a bit more often.
Edit - Yeah, definitely going to be tomorrow.
That and I figured I should start contributing a bit more often.
Edit - Yeah, definitely going to be tomorrow.
MrEh
Smash Hero
I think that a lot of people think the Bowser vs Meta 55-45 matchup is such a joke since Bowser is such a crappy character to most players. With Meta being the undisputed best character in the game, many would assume that he would utterly **** Bowser in every way.
Think about it like this though. Both Bowser and Meta Knight are characters of extremes. In actual statistics, neither of them are balanced characters. There really is no middle ground for either of them in terms of speed, power, etc. In most cases, they're either really bad at something, or really good at something.
Bowser is really big, slow and not very maneuverable. However, he's strong and has a large range on a lot of his attacks. He also weighs 50,000 pounds.
Meta is really small, fast, and maneuverable to the max. He has long range and he attacks insanely quick. He also weighs 5 pounds.
The thing about Bowser is that his matchups really don't match up with his extreme attributes. He isn't a character that has some excellent matchups and some terrible matchups. He's a character that is pretty much made of bad matchups. (Besides the obvious things like Ganondorf and Falcon.) The funny thing about that though, is that even though a lot of his matchups are disadvantageous, most of them aren't horribly disadvantageous. They're usually only 55-65 in his opponent's favor. For the most part, Bowser matchups can be summarized into two separate groups.
Matchups where Bowser can hold his own with some difficulty.
Or matchups where Bowser is fighting Dedede.
Excluding any match with Dedede, which is clearly a mockery of a fight to begin with, Bowser really doesn't suffer horribly in most of his matchups. He does do badly in some mind you (Diddy and DK), but he doesn't perform that badly on a majority of the cast.
In the Meta matchup, Bowser has a lot of fun tools to use. The chaingrab has already been mentioned, and while it's difficult to land the grab, once he does, most Meta Knights are in for a world of pain. Bowser can chaingrab Meta to the ledge, and once he reaches the ledge, he can use his powerful Dtilt to KO him, or an Fair if Meta jumps out of his grab. If properly utilized, a perfect Bowser chaingrab can lead into KOs. And if it doesn't, it can lead into very high amounts of damage. It can also lead into an inescapable Bowsercide, which is possible if Bowser is properly positioned at the ledge when Meta is released from his grab. Of course, his chaingrab and grab release tricks do not decide the matchup, but they are effective tools when used properly.
Another thing Meta Knight needs to watch out for, Bowser's tilts and jabs. Meta's tilts will usually outrange Bowser's, but you still need to be wary of them. Bowser's jabs and tilts come out surprisingly fast, and they have decent amounts of range to them as well, not to mention KO power. Jabs and Ftilts are good for spacing, and they both come out pretty quick. The Dtilt, as mentioned before, works out of a grab release and kills very easily. The Utilt is absolutely fearsome though. The Utilt comes out fast, has very deceptive range, and is very fast. I think it'll kill Meta at 80% fresh. And funnily enough, if properly spaced, a reverse Utilt will beat Meta's Dair. Although I'm not 100% sure on this, I'm pretty sure it will beat out an Fair, Bair, and Nair as well. Simply put, the Utilt is dangerous.
Despite his large strength, Bowser is a very defensive character. He's a character that waits for his opponent to make a mistake, then punishes them. Attacks that aren't properly spaced will be met with his infamous Fortress OoS, which does decent damage and even has killing power. Because of Bowser's huge shield, he can take a lot of hits and not get shield stabbed. He can defend himself for freakishly long time while he waits for an opening. Hell, his shield can even absorb an entire whorenado. Always remember that the sooner you start getting predictable and making mistakes, the sooner Bowser will start punishing you.
An obvious thing worth mentioning is Bowser's weight. Yes, Meta is pretty strong. His Dsmash and Shuttle Loop come out near instantly, and they have good killing power to boot. However, you'd be surprised at all the crap that Bowser can survive. Just as Bowser's weight is important in the matchup, so is Meta Knight's. As I'm sure you're aware, Meta is light. Really light. A lot of Bowser's moves will kill Meta and surprisingly low percents. The Utilt and Fortress have been mentioned, but lets not forget his Fair and Bair. Both come out quick and have surprising amounts of priority and range. Both of these attacks can beat out Meta's aerial attacks if they're spaced well, so they're useful if the Bowser player sees an opening, or he just wants to clash hits.
I'm in so way insinuating that Bowser has an advantage on Meta Knight. However, it's clear that while Bowser does not go even with Meta, the matchup isn't all that bad for him. Hell, I'd take Meta over Samus any day. Fighting Samus is a nightmare for Bowser.
Think about it like this though. Both Bowser and Meta Knight are characters of extremes. In actual statistics, neither of them are balanced characters. There really is no middle ground for either of them in terms of speed, power, etc. In most cases, they're either really bad at something, or really good at something.
Bowser is really big, slow and not very maneuverable. However, he's strong and has a large range on a lot of his attacks. He also weighs 50,000 pounds.
Meta is really small, fast, and maneuverable to the max. He has long range and he attacks insanely quick. He also weighs 5 pounds.
The thing about Bowser is that his matchups really don't match up with his extreme attributes. He isn't a character that has some excellent matchups and some terrible matchups. He's a character that is pretty much made of bad matchups. (Besides the obvious things like Ganondorf and Falcon.) The funny thing about that though, is that even though a lot of his matchups are disadvantageous, most of them aren't horribly disadvantageous. They're usually only 55-65 in his opponent's favor. For the most part, Bowser matchups can be summarized into two separate groups.
Matchups where Bowser can hold his own with some difficulty.
Or matchups where Bowser is fighting Dedede.
Excluding any match with Dedede, which is clearly a mockery of a fight to begin with, Bowser really doesn't suffer horribly in most of his matchups. He does do badly in some mind you (Diddy and DK), but he doesn't perform that badly on a majority of the cast.
In the Meta matchup, Bowser has a lot of fun tools to use. The chaingrab has already been mentioned, and while it's difficult to land the grab, once he does, most Meta Knights are in for a world of pain. Bowser can chaingrab Meta to the ledge, and once he reaches the ledge, he can use his powerful Dtilt to KO him, or an Fair if Meta jumps out of his grab. If properly utilized, a perfect Bowser chaingrab can lead into KOs. And if it doesn't, it can lead into very high amounts of damage. It can also lead into an inescapable Bowsercide, which is possible if Bowser is properly positioned at the ledge when Meta is released from his grab. Of course, his chaingrab and grab release tricks do not decide the matchup, but they are effective tools when used properly.
Another thing Meta Knight needs to watch out for, Bowser's tilts and jabs. Meta's tilts will usually outrange Bowser's, but you still need to be wary of them. Bowser's jabs and tilts come out surprisingly fast, and they have decent amounts of range to them as well, not to mention KO power. Jabs and Ftilts are good for spacing, and they both come out pretty quick. The Dtilt, as mentioned before, works out of a grab release and kills very easily. The Utilt is absolutely fearsome though. The Utilt comes out fast, has very deceptive range, and is very fast. I think it'll kill Meta at 80% fresh. And funnily enough, if properly spaced, a reverse Utilt will beat Meta's Dair. Although I'm not 100% sure on this, I'm pretty sure it will beat out an Fair, Bair, and Nair as well. Simply put, the Utilt is dangerous.
Despite his large strength, Bowser is a very defensive character. He's a character that waits for his opponent to make a mistake, then punishes them. Attacks that aren't properly spaced will be met with his infamous Fortress OoS, which does decent damage and even has killing power. Because of Bowser's huge shield, he can take a lot of hits and not get shield stabbed. He can defend himself for freakishly long time while he waits for an opening. Hell, his shield can even absorb an entire whorenado. Always remember that the sooner you start getting predictable and making mistakes, the sooner Bowser will start punishing you.
An obvious thing worth mentioning is Bowser's weight. Yes, Meta is pretty strong. His Dsmash and Shuttle Loop come out near instantly, and they have good killing power to boot. However, you'd be surprised at all the crap that Bowser can survive. Just as Bowser's weight is important in the matchup, so is Meta Knight's. As I'm sure you're aware, Meta is light. Really light. A lot of Bowser's moves will kill Meta and surprisingly low percents. The Utilt and Fortress have been mentioned, but lets not forget his Fair and Bair. Both come out quick and have surprising amounts of priority and range. Both of these attacks can beat out Meta's aerial attacks if they're spaced well, so they're useful if the Bowser player sees an opening, or he just wants to clash hits.
I'm in so way insinuating that Bowser has an advantage on Meta Knight. However, it's clear that while Bowser does not go even with Meta, the matchup isn't all that bad for him. Hell, I'd take Meta over Samus any day. Fighting Samus is a nightmare for Bowser.
- Joined
- Apr 10, 2008
- Messages
- 6,860
Assuming what's below is right, shouldn't Meta beat Bowser with the b-button. Just tornado above ftilt and Bowser can only jump and side-b to beat it?
*admits he doesn't know much about MK-Bowser matchup*
*admits he doesn't know much about MK-Bowser matchup*
Popertop
Smash Champion
dear god no.
If he tornadoes your shield, you can just fortress out of it.
Way easy.
Don't know why everybody doesn't know that.
MrEh, good deal sir.
If he tornadoes your shield, you can just fortress out of it.
Way easy.
Don't know why everybody doesn't know that.
MrEh, good deal sir.
Mmac
Smash Lord
Well done. It makes me want to change the ratio. However I also fear the fact that if I do, Sliq, Vex, and Gheb will tear my head off
I only in doubt because I feel that Bowser shouldn't be at the same ratio as Yoshi, when he uses the exact same strategy in an inferior form. Although I feel like Yoshi should be dead 50:50 Now. If anyone remembers, I did a Tournament.... summary.... thingy... awhile back:
Althought I might have overblown the percents like this. But no matter what way you look at it (As long as it's reasonable, of course), Yoshi stays above 50-50. Even at the bare minimum advantages:
Still Above, but lets say that Yoshi doesn't go completely even with MetaKnight in the first place, and his first round pick only brings him up to even and his heavy counterpick matches the same as him (Not likely though, I'm sure that walkoff's, 40% Nair Kills, and Infinites scare the crap out of you
No matter what way you look at it, he always stays over or on 50:50. If Yoshi was a 40:60, then this would be nullified, but he's not 40:60. He has too much on this matchup to be like that, and alot of things on MetaKnight to compete. He can actually recover from MetaKnight regularly (In fact, Yoshi is probably going to be the hardest character for MetaKnight to intercept. Not saying that Yoshi can't be gimped, but he will probably get past more often compared to every character in the game). He can Combo Break with Double Jump Armour. He matches well in both Speed and Range (MetaKnight still outranges and outspeeds him, but only by a little bit,Yoshi should beable to fair well in direct combat still), and has a strong Defencive Game.
Because PS1 is now Neutral in most locations, Yoshi's First Round Stage will always be on a stage where he is going to be more comfortable on, rather than Battlefield or Yoshi's Island where MetaKnight has the slight upper hand on. Plus if Bowser has success with a similar strategy almost identical to Yoshi's, then I don't see why Yoshi shouldn't be bumped up another 5 points.
Infinitysmash
Smash Champion
Yoshi
The following is my opinion on the Yoshi match up. Just as a side note, Bwett and I are in the same crew so we play quite often and I feel that I very likely know this matchup better than any other Metaknight player. I'm not going to list every single aspect of the matchup, but I will attempt to stress the important points.
Important character advantages - Metaknight
- Close range superiority. When Metaknight gets in close he can do quite a bit of damage and it's hard for Yoshi to regain his ground.
- The Tornado. Using this move aggressively is not the right thing to do in this matchup, but using it defensively will save you from dying very frequently. Use it to get back on the stage or if the Yoshi player jumps up at you to try and up air you. (Quick aside about the Egg Toss: it does not always beat the Tornado. I'm not exactly sure why, but sometimes it does and sometimes it doesn't.)
- Killing ability. All of Metaknight's killing moves are faster and more sudden than Yoshi's and hit just as hard.
- Survivability. Due to Metaknight's superior killing ability and very good recovery options the Yoshi player will have a harder time staying alive and will have a harder time killing Metaknight in spite of grab releases.
Important Character Advantages - Yoshi
- Long range superiority. Yoshi's grab game and the spacing on a lot of his moves will allow him to regain his distance and force the Metaknight to play whatever game Yoshi wants him to.
- Aerial control. Yoshi has the fastest aerial movement in the game and it can be very difficult for a Metaknight with little experience to space Yoshi properly.
- Stage control. Yoshi can control the stage with properly spaced Egg Tosses, grabs and aerials, which makes it difficult for Metaknight to be able to approach properly and even forces Metaknight into the exact spot where Yoshi wants him to be.
- Grab releases. This offers yet another form of game control for Yoshi and can definitely lead to kills when properly set up. Plus, it offers a free move refresh.
The Grey Area where both are good
- Grab Games. Yes, Yoshi has a grab release on Metaknight but it doesn't last that long and only does a handful of percent. Metaknight's down throw game is very bad for Yoshi since there is nowhere he can go without getting hit by either a neutral air or a string of moves and eating anywhere between 11% and something in the 30s.
- Edge game. Believe it or not Metaknight only has a slight advantage in this area. Yoshi can grab release Metaknight into a lot of shenanigans off the edge including a spike on players who don't expect it. Metaknight's normal edgeguard is better than attempting to go out and gimp Yoshi in most situations, but it is very possible to just plain stop him from coming back onto the stage by just being in the way.
- Mind games. These are especially important in this matchup because both players will need to go out of their way to make the other player believe they will do something out of the ordinary. Yoshi has a slight advantage in this area due to his ranged game, but if a Metaknight player plays it patiently they can turn the tables around on the Yoshi player by feigning an approach.
Stages and Counterpicking
- 3 out of the 5 Neturals have Metaknight as the favorite. Final Destination and Smashville are good for the Yoshi player; Battlefield, Yoshi's Island, and Pokemon Stadium 1 are good for Metaknight. PS1 can be good in either direction, but Metaknight's adaptability will prove to be the key point on this stage.
- Yoshi wants to go to a flat stage when he can take away most of Metaknight's approach options. Final Destination, Smashville and Pictochat (yes, I did just say that) are likely to be the stages that Yoshi wants to go to and he is likely to either ban Rainbow Cruise or Luigi's Mansion.
- Metaknight likes options and likes to exploit every approach possible. Going to any stage where Yoshi can't space you properly or force you into his zone is your best option. I recommend Norfair, Delfino Plaza or Luigi's Mansion as counterpicks as they all take away several options from Yoshi and add to your own. If any of the above are not legal, then Rainbow Cruise or Halberd are your next best options.
Final Verdict
Metaknight has the advantage anywhere between 55:45 to 65:35. I'd rather give a range than a definite number because, well, **** happens. Metaknight has a very clear advantage in counterpicking and has a 3/5 favor on neutral stages. Counterpicking and stage striking are likely the most important part of this matchup.
My advice to Metaknight players
Don't get grabbed and be careful playing around with his smash moves; his up smash will beat your tornado and kill you in the mid hundreds although I don't know the exact percentage. Try and get him in the air and keep him just barely inside of your aerial range at first, then knock him away and keep him airborne in any way possible. When he's heading towards the ground jump up at him and wait for the air dodge, then fall with him and crush him with a neutral air or a down air. When you're high up he will try to chase you with an up air, be careful and avoid this as much as possible because it can easily kill you before 100%. Use down tilts to force a grab and then rack up damage with aerials after a down throw. Once they get to about 90-100% force them to the side of the stage and attempt to force a down smash on them. You want to be passive-aggressive in this matchup; wait for an opening, abuse the opening until you can't any more, then get out of the zone and wait for another opening. It's more difficult to force an opening than it is to just wait for one in this match. I obviously can't cover everything, so the rest is up to you to improvise.
The following is my opinion on the Yoshi match up. Just as a side note, Bwett and I are in the same crew so we play quite often and I feel that I very likely know this matchup better than any other Metaknight player. I'm not going to list every single aspect of the matchup, but I will attempt to stress the important points.
Important character advantages - Metaknight
- Close range superiority. When Metaknight gets in close he can do quite a bit of damage and it's hard for Yoshi to regain his ground.
- The Tornado. Using this move aggressively is not the right thing to do in this matchup, but using it defensively will save you from dying very frequently. Use it to get back on the stage or if the Yoshi player jumps up at you to try and up air you. (Quick aside about the Egg Toss: it does not always beat the Tornado. I'm not exactly sure why, but sometimes it does and sometimes it doesn't.)
- Killing ability. All of Metaknight's killing moves are faster and more sudden than Yoshi's and hit just as hard.
- Survivability. Due to Metaknight's superior killing ability and very good recovery options the Yoshi player will have a harder time staying alive and will have a harder time killing Metaknight in spite of grab releases.
Important Character Advantages - Yoshi
- Long range superiority. Yoshi's grab game and the spacing on a lot of his moves will allow him to regain his distance and force the Metaknight to play whatever game Yoshi wants him to.
- Aerial control. Yoshi has the fastest aerial movement in the game and it can be very difficult for a Metaknight with little experience to space Yoshi properly.
- Stage control. Yoshi can control the stage with properly spaced Egg Tosses, grabs and aerials, which makes it difficult for Metaknight to be able to approach properly and even forces Metaknight into the exact spot where Yoshi wants him to be.
- Grab releases. This offers yet another form of game control for Yoshi and can definitely lead to kills when properly set up. Plus, it offers a free move refresh.
The Grey Area where both are good
- Grab Games. Yes, Yoshi has a grab release on Metaknight but it doesn't last that long and only does a handful of percent. Metaknight's down throw game is very bad for Yoshi since there is nowhere he can go without getting hit by either a neutral air or a string of moves and eating anywhere between 11% and something in the 30s.
- Edge game. Believe it or not Metaknight only has a slight advantage in this area. Yoshi can grab release Metaknight into a lot of shenanigans off the edge including a spike on players who don't expect it. Metaknight's normal edgeguard is better than attempting to go out and gimp Yoshi in most situations, but it is very possible to just plain stop him from coming back onto the stage by just being in the way.
- Mind games. These are especially important in this matchup because both players will need to go out of their way to make the other player believe they will do something out of the ordinary. Yoshi has a slight advantage in this area due to his ranged game, but if a Metaknight player plays it patiently they can turn the tables around on the Yoshi player by feigning an approach.
Stages and Counterpicking
- 3 out of the 5 Neturals have Metaknight as the favorite. Final Destination and Smashville are good for the Yoshi player; Battlefield, Yoshi's Island, and Pokemon Stadium 1 are good for Metaknight. PS1 can be good in either direction, but Metaknight's adaptability will prove to be the key point on this stage.
- Yoshi wants to go to a flat stage when he can take away most of Metaknight's approach options. Final Destination, Smashville and Pictochat (yes, I did just say that) are likely to be the stages that Yoshi wants to go to and he is likely to either ban Rainbow Cruise or Luigi's Mansion.
- Metaknight likes options and likes to exploit every approach possible. Going to any stage where Yoshi can't space you properly or force you into his zone is your best option. I recommend Norfair, Delfino Plaza or Luigi's Mansion as counterpicks as they all take away several options from Yoshi and add to your own. If any of the above are not legal, then Rainbow Cruise or Halberd are your next best options.
Final Verdict
Metaknight has the advantage anywhere between 55:45 to 65:35. I'd rather give a range than a definite number because, well, **** happens. Metaknight has a very clear advantage in counterpicking and has a 3/5 favor on neutral stages. Counterpicking and stage striking are likely the most important part of this matchup.
My advice to Metaknight players
Don't get grabbed and be careful playing around with his smash moves; his up smash will beat your tornado and kill you in the mid hundreds although I don't know the exact percentage. Try and get him in the air and keep him just barely inside of your aerial range at first, then knock him away and keep him airborne in any way possible. When he's heading towards the ground jump up at him and wait for the air dodge, then fall with him and crush him with a neutral air or a down air. When you're high up he will try to chase you with an up air, be careful and avoid this as much as possible because it can easily kill you before 100%. Use down tilts to force a grab and then rack up damage with aerials after a down throw. Once they get to about 90-100% force them to the side of the stage and attempt to force a down smash on them. You want to be passive-aggressive in this matchup; wait for an opening, abuse the opening until you can't any more, then get out of the zone and wait for another opening. It's more difficult to force an opening than it is to just wait for one in this match. I obviously can't cover everything, so the rest is up to you to improvise.
Mmac
Smash Lord
While I agree on Close Range and the Tornado, but I disagree with your points on Killing Ability and Survivability. Because Yoshi's Kills are mostly directly linked to his Grab Release, it should be mostly compared to those. I'm sure I don't have to explain it to you, but really his only "Natural" Killer is his Uair, which matches MetaKnights Lighting Fast Kill Moves. Speaking of, his Dsmash, Nair, and Shuttle Loop/Glide Attack are all 4 Frames and less. The only other character that comes to mind is Wolf's Dsmash. No other Character to my knowage have Kill Moves this fast, so how is this Fair? Plus Yoshi has only what? An extra 4-6 Frames to his Pivot Grab, Usmash, and Fsmash?
And Survivability, I think this is a misconception. When I think of Survivability, I solely think of Recovery. While yes, MetaKnight will probably get back to the stage every time (He DOES have the best recovery after all), Yoshi will probably get back just as often. Because of Yoshi's DJAD combined with his Poor Airspeed, MetaKnight will probably have the Hardest time intercepting Yoshi compared to any other character in the game. I think this should account to something, as MetaKnight's Edgeguarding game is one of his most important aspects. This will make Early Percent Kills a rarity for him
Nothing to Say here...
This I don't really understand. Yoshi has several things he can do from Release. Usmash, Nair, Dash Attack (Which Can Combo to a Jab Combo, which can lead into another grab at some percents. I have most success with this at 20-40's), DownB, Egg Roll (Can Combo 0-40 at very low percents when used right), and the Fair Spike, which I will get later. Most of these attacks do 15% Alone, and the ones that can combo can do up to 40!
Also, I have Rarely been hit out of MetaKnight Dthrow, I almost always DJAD in time to escape... I don't know if it has to do with the people I been playing against.... but yeah...
Can't really comment on Mindgames
This is the one that Puzzled me the most. I have been arguing that Yoshi has the ADVANTAGE on Pokemon Stadium 1 for the past... Month. The Basic Layout has alot of space which doesn't interfere with Yoshi's Grab Release Game, and the platforms are thin as hell, also not interfering much. Yoshi has the advantage on the fire part, because of the wall infinite on the Tree, and he has the advantage on the Rock Part, because of the open area on the side, and the Pit of Death... if he gets there first that is. Water I would say is equal, and really, MetaKnight only has the advantage on the Grass Part. MetaKnight could adabt well, but Yoshi has about 2/3's of the (Or if not, the entire) stage to his advantage.
Also, why no mention to Yoshi's Hard Counterpicks at all? Why no mention to Yoshi's Island Melee? Why no Corneria? Why no Castle Siege? Hell what about Distant Planet and Green Hill Zone? They're not banned in some locations. Yes we do good on Flats, but why take him there when we can take him to a stage where we can completely destroy him?
And do you REALLY want to take Yoshi to Delfino Plaza? I mean he does do well in some points, but I feel it's a double edge sword stage. 2/3's of the Main Platform doesn't really interfere with Yoshi's release game, and some of the stages are flat, or more importantly, Walkoffs, which leads to an easy death.
No Way! This is what I most disagree with. MetaKnight does not have 3/5 of the neutrals. I just can't see why MetaKnight is advantage on Pokemon Stadium compared to something like Battlefield. Also MetaKnight is FAR from having better stage counterpicks than Yoshi. What do you think is worse, A stage with no ledge, or a Stage where if you get grabbed at all, you die?
I can see some parts, but some things I have to question
- When Yoshi is going towards the ground, and you jump up with him, are you sure his best reaction is to Airdodge to you? What if he pulls away, or better yet, what if he counters with an Nair?
- How is Dtilt going to force us to grab, or are you talking about MetaKnight grabbing?
- Again, I am not sure the Dthrow Combos actually work....
Also remember, Everything is always easier said then done
Bwett
Smash Ace
Replies in bold italicizedGood Read, but there was some parts that I feel were wrong, and some parts that you overall missed
While I agree on Close Range and the Tornado, but I disagree with your points on Killing Ability and Survivability. Because Yoshi's Kills are mostly directly linked to his Grab Release, it should be mostly compared to those. I'm sure I don't have to explain it to you, but really his only "Natural" Killer is his Uair, which matches MetaKnights Lighting Fast Kill Moves. Speaking of, his Dsmash, Nair, and Shuttle Loop/Glide Attack are all 4 Frames and less. The only other character that comes to mind is Wolf's Dsmash. No other Character to my knowage have Kill Moves this fast, so how is this Fair? Plus Yoshi has only what? An extra 4-6 Frames to his Pivot Grab, Usmash, and Fsmash?
It doesn't matter whether not it's fair. All he is saying is that his moves are faster and more effective at killing yoshi than the other way around. MK is better at killing and gimping. Also, Uair can't match all of MK's lightning fast kill moves because we can't use it in all situations. MK has more options for killing
And Survivability, I think this is a misconception. When I think of Survivability, I solely think of Recovery. While yes, MetaKnight will probably get back to the stage every time (He DOES have the best recovery after all), Yoshi will probably get back just as often. Because of Yoshi's DJAD combined with his Poor Airspeed, MetaKnight will probably have the Hardest time intercepting Yoshi compared to any other character in the game. I think this should account to something, as MetaKnight's Edgeguarding game is one of his most important aspects. This will make Early Percent Kills a rarity for him
Once again, we aren't comparing Yoshi's recovery to everyone else's in the game. Just against MK. MK has a better recovery. Therefore, when it comes to survivability in that aspect, MK wins. Also, MK has the ability to come far off stage to gimp with little for us to do if they read our moves. Yoshi has limited ability in recovery. Even though DJAD is good, if read, you will be punished.
This I don't really understand. Yoshi has several things he can do from Release. Usmash, Nair, Dash Attack (Which Can Combo to a Jab Combo, which can lead into another grab at some percents. I have most success with this at 20-40's), DownB, Egg Roll (Can Combo 0-40 at very low percents when used right), and the Fair Spike, which I will get later. Most of these attacks do 15% Alone, and the ones that can combo can do up to 40!
I would love to see a video of downb and nair from grab release. I'll believe that when I see it.
Also, I have Rarely been hit out of MetaKnight Dthrow, I almost always DJAD in time to escape... I don't know if it has to do with the people I been playing against.... but yeah...
It's probably your opponents. Personally I think you won't get hit everytime, but you can get hit alot if you aren't careful
For the last time, the Fair Spike is completely dependent on POSITIONING. I keep telling Bwett this but he refuses to listen to me... It is a proved inescapable, but you can't be directly on the ledge to do it. Also Dair Beats out Shuttle Loop FYI.
I already told you that I would give it to you about positioning. The only thing I fight for is that fact that because of this specific positioning, it is not guaranteed that you will hit that position from the CG.
Also, why no mention to Yoshi's Hard Counterpicks at all? Why no mention to Yoshi's Island Melee? Why no Corneria? Why no Castle Siege? Hell what about Distant Planet and Green Hill Zone? They're not banned in some locations. Yes we do good on Flats, but why take him there when we can take him to a stage where we can completely destroy him?
I'm tired of Yoshi's being misled by the "power" of walkoff CG. Because of the slant on Green Hill Zone and Yoshi's Island, it is too difficult to land it perfectly. Too situational. I will give you corneria for the low ceiling only. The Infinite on the fin is completely useless since MK can just not go there. Also, Yoshi can die extremely fast from the side blast zone on this stage. Distant planet, MK doesnt have to go over there. CG would be near impossible if he did. MK can just stay on his right. For Castle Siege, If MK stays on the platforms, no CG whatsoever. I'm not saying that any of these stages are bad for Yoshi. Just saying that MK won't get "destroyed" as you put it.
And do you REALLY want to take Yoshi to Delfino Plaza? I mean he does do well in some points, but I feel it's a double edge sword stage. 2/3's of the Main Platform doesn't really interfere with Yoshi's release game, and some of the stages are flat, or more importantly, Walkoffs, which leads to an easy death.
Once again, stop putting so much stock in the walkoff kill. The part with the stairs is hard to get because of the angles. I might see the part with the umbrellas alittle more because MK has less room to work, but the umbrellas can ruin it pretty easily.
No Way! This is what I most disagree with. MetaKnight does not have 3/5 of the neutrals. I just can't see why MetaKnight is advantage on Pokemon Stadium compared to something like Battlefield. Also MetaKnight is FAR from having better stage counterpicks than Yoshi. What do you think is worse, A stage with no ledge, or a Stage where if you get grabbed at all, you die?
Just because you get grabbed doesn't mean you die.
Also remember, Everything is always easier said then done
I can say the same thing. I don't mean to be confrontational, but I really believe your opinions on the match are theorycraft and that if you had fought affinity, infinity, or dojo, you would know how hard it can be.
Deoxys
Smash Lord
I can't see PS1 favoring MK in the Yoshi matchup.
Mmac
Smash Lord
I know it's not guaranteed, I'm just saying it DOES work. Since Infinity is mostly judging his opinions off of you, I mearly thought this was coming from your opinion also, so sorry
CG'ing up the hills are not that. You do know that you have to Fthrow Chain upwards on the steep hills of YIM/GHZ right? And are you really having troubles Chaingrabbing slight slants? You do know that they make it EASIER to Chaingrab right?
Also, remember on Corneria, the same goes for MetaKnight for the blast zones, which is much more dangerous for him because we can control him. And if MetaKnight is just going to camp under you the entire time on Castle Siege, he is putting himself in a severe disadvantage because he is unable to retaliate.
The Angles don't do anything to hurt the CG Though, and what about the boardwalk? What about the Rooftops (I know it's not technically a walkoff, but Fthrow kills at 40% anyways, so yeah...) My point is that overall, the stage seems to benefit Yoshi more than it does MetaKnight.
On YIM and GHZ.... Yeah... You do
Just because I haven't gone to in person tournaments, doesn't make my opinions void. I have played great MetaKnights online (Overswarms, Clouderz and Redhalberd (When he used to main MetaKnight) to name a few), and decent ones offline (Lucky, My town is plagued by MetaKnights).
If you really want me to, I can hunt down Clouderz and challenge him in person. He's only 30Km's away despite those 30km's being a stretch of water which I have to pay an arm and a leg to get across. But you can't say that my facts and opinions are nothing but theory. I know what MetaKnight can do, and I know what Yoshi can do against him.
PS: I can do vids of DownB/Nair from Release, if you want.
Bwett
Smash Ace
I really would like one, not as a challenge but if you really can do those, I would like to know how. Alot of what I know is from what I myself find and what I see from videos of matches with other Yoshi's. I have never seen a walkoff kill on many of the stages you've mentioned. I have never seen egg roll, down b, or nair from grab release. I have tried nair and downb but it didn't work for me. Maybe I'm doing it all wrong, but once again, I have yet to see a video to show me what I'm doing wrong if it can be done.
This leads me to a few conclusions: Either they don't work or they are entirely too situational. My conclusions may be flawed but that's how I feel. If you don't agree with this, that is perfectly fine. I would love you to prove me wrong with a video. Why would I not want Yoshi to have more options?
All I'm saying is I've played the best MK's in the nation and I out of all Yoshi's out there KNOW what MK can do to Yoshi. Can you really doubt my experience when I've played Affinity, Dojo, Domo, Infinity, and M2K offline?
Mmac
Smash Lord
It's not really that complex though, both are just simply running up to them. Nair is just a quick SH to Nair, and Down B is.... Well Down B. However it works best with B-Sticking, as you need to be quick but smooth with the rotation if you want to do it normally
Gindler
Smash Champion
I think Nair is dependent on if they just given up hope, I've done a Fsmash from grab release (walking a little first of course) and they airdodge ASAP so i punished upon landing...I've Naired though, never groundpounded...
Infinitysmash
Smash Champion
I'd love to play you on PS1 some time, MMac.
YoshiIslander77z
Smash Apprentice
i see you need some info on pivot grab, this one thing alone is what make this match-up 55:45 in my opinion cause my yoshi relys on his grab game alot in this match up. pivot grab is very fast with range, this move stops approches unbelievebly well, has little ending lagg. with everything yoshi can do out of his grab this move is very important espically with meta knight being the one that has to approach. also it is possible to do a dash grab out of his pivot but its not to common. the pivot grab has just enough range to take you out of ur tornado and other b moves, this used in combo after an up tilt because it is most effective when ur opponent is in the air. well that all i can think of right now and it being spammed against meta knights.
TKD
Smash Lord
How about making vids of that fthrow chain. That's just dumb. Fthrow chain? That doesn't exist. Meta Knight will not be on his feet when he touches the ground. You can't regrab...
If the Meta Knight player DI's away, the second hit of the downB from grab release doesn't connect, only the first one. Assuming they don't block it that is, as it's very hard to time.
Mmac
Smash Lord
Affinity
Smash Hero
*Pictures re-added, Bowser Info added, and Infinity's Yoshi info added*
doom dragon 105
Smash Lord
Ike vs Mk is pretty even
Ike kills easy, gimps easy and out ranges MK
MK ***** ike's speed, owns on the ledge, and can combo
Ike kills easy, gimps easy and out ranges MK
MK ***** ike's speed, owns on the ledge, and can combo
yellowroy
Smash Ace
even though game and watch is finished i think that this is good info
shuttle loop while he b~air's you. you'll get a free up b when he uses it.
shuttle loop while he b~air's you. you'll get a free up b when he uses it.
Affinity
Smash Hero
If by pretty even you mean pretty heavy in MK's favor, then yes that's true.
Martselsoep
Smash Cadet
I dont see Ike gimping MK easily, I do see MK gimping Ike easily
range of Ike's attacks is neutralized by his attacking speed and by the fact that MK has decent range by himself.
The best things going for Ike are his auto-cancelled nairs to jab and auto-cancelled fairs
Sushi-Man
Smash Ace
@Affinity: Do you mind doing the toon link match-up?
Affinity
Smash Hero
Affinity
Smash Hero
*Falco section updated*
Infinitysmash
Smash Champion
Schweet!
10stickiedthreads
10stickiedthreads
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