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Meta Knight's Revenge: The Official Match-Up Thread *Wario* -> GO

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TKD

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However, it feels like he didn't put enough emphasis on the danger of Fsmash. It can kill MK at 30% from the center of Final Destination. AVOID AT ALL COSTS.
I added a small note about not tornadoing into an Fsmash. Ike's fsmash is easy to see coming, so the only way to get fsmashed if you're paying attention is really only if you're mindlessly charging at him with your tornado.

So then its true, Mk doesn't even have any matchups out of his favor lol (even if this is unofficial)
That hasn't been updated. We have a lot of even matchups (seven), and the Snake matchup is possibly disadvantage for Metaknight at top level play. TOP LEVEL play, the level where Snake pulls a grenade out on your last shuttle loop attempt on his cypher so he won't get knocked out, and the level where the Snake player keeps trading hits by keeping up good grenade play. Plus, watch some power rankings (west coast-wise at least)...even if MK is the most frequently mained character, not even half the top players per region main MK. If all of MK's matchups were favorable, they would have it easier.
 

Affinity

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That hasn't been updated. We have a lot of even matchups (seven), and the Snake matchup is possibly disadvantage for Metaknight at top level play. TOP LEVEL play, the level where Snake pulls a grenade out on your last shuttle loop attempt on his cypher so he won't get knocked out, and the level where the Snake player keeps trading hits by keeping up good grenade play. Plus, watch some power rankings (west coast-wise at least)...even if MK is the most frequently mained character, not even half the top players per region main MK. If all of MK's matchups were favorable, they would have it easier.
I'll update it tomorrow. Need sleep...
 

subzerosmokerain

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Its an attack that comes out after you glide.

To glide, either do your upB, and glide from there. Or jump twice and hold the jump button.

EDIT: 4000th post wasted.

Well 5000 here I come.
thanks i guess. i thouguht it was something more complicated.
 

TKD

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InfernoOmni said:
MK vs. Snake is dangerous. IMO, a perfect MK will always beat a perfect Snake, but that's a silly analogy.
I never read that until now. Yes, it's a very silly analogy.

Will more matchups get covered soon? Would that require people to submit their perspective in this thread?
 

Steeler

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charizard is 60:40, i agree with this. it's sad that 60:40 is looked at as a "good" matchup vs mk but whatev man! zard can shieldgrab mk out of anything but dtilt and like the last hit of ftilt if mk isn't spacing correctly. zard has a few defensive options up his sleeve, and an answer to almost everything mk can throw at him, with grab range, flamethrower, rock smash, bair. the only thing is that mk is just so fast that if zard doesn't see mk's move coming, he'll probably land the hit...rock smash and flamethrower aren't insanely laggy, but it's noticeable enough for mk's lagless attacks to take advantage of.

i wish i could apply all my knowledge to my actual gameplay. :|

not going to go into squirtle and ivy right now. perhaps we can play some friendlies on saturday for the purpose of this matchup, affinity.
 

TheMogX

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Wow, that Ike section is way more detailed than what I was going to put.
As he mentioned, Fair and Bair are your two biggest concerns. However, it feels like he didn't put enough emphasis on the danger of Fsmash. It can kill MK at 30% from the center of Final Destination. AVOID AT ALL COSTS.
Other than that, his is more complete than anything I would have put together.
Hmmm thats a very general subject you know.
Even with all character avoiding Ike's Fsmash is necesary. But a top level Ike will not use the Fsmash unless hes completly sure that it will get a hit or he will not get punish for using it.
Not getting hit by Ike is a rule every low and normal weight characters must follow.
TKD guide tell us how to aproach and defend aganist an Ike player and thats pretty much not getting hit.
 

viparagon

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I think this thread is starting to get a little dated.
How is Olimar 60:40 when DEDEDE is 65:35?
I'd consider updating the list. DEDEDE can easily break nado with f-tilt, has a hard to gimp recovery (MK standards) and can sheild grab SH Anything pummel >bthrow=19%
Ub b is really crucial here. don't try to GA though... He can swallow you:psycho:

Hope this helps
 

Affinity

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I think this thread is starting to get a little dated.
How is Olimar 60:40 when DEDEDE is 65:35?
I'd consider updating the list. DEDEDE can easily break nado with f-tilt, has a hard to gimp recovery (MK standards) and can sheild grab SH Anything pummel >bthrow=19%
Ub b is really crucial here. don't try to GA though... He can swallow you:psycho:

Hope this helps
--Updated--
 

Swordplay

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Yoshi's CG makes me want to throw up.....If I get grabbed its a stock loss. at anything above 40%. He just CG's me to edge and fair spikes.

I hope you get the yoshi info up soon.
 

viparagon

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--Updated--
Thanks, but i'm still wondering why oli is so high.

Tornado beats any thing Olimar can throw at him, and MK's aerials beat out all but Uair in terms of speed and priority plus Best gimping character+one of the most gimped characters =/= 60:40

Thank s for changing it though. I'm glad my opinion matters
 

Guilhe

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The section about gimping Ike seems to be a little outdated. Aether is Ike’s most used recovery method, as Quick Draw can easily be interrupted by blocking its path (preferentially performing an air dodge). Aether can be interrupted by the use of reverse shuttle loop before (or after) the Super Armor frames take effect.
 

TKD

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The Ike thing is recent, actually. If you Aether you're probably going to die. After DI'ing correctly, his best option is to airjump and Quickdraw from up high.

Eathering Ikes...If they get too high, I shuttle loop them while they're in their rolling animation (before falling quickly), if they're too low, I dsmash.

There's a reason I typed "gimp city" somewhere around, haha...
 

Rh1thmz

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I saw that there isn't any info on Yoshi and decided to post a bit about Yoshi here. Hopefully, my contribution is accurate and helpful >.< I just played a pretty darn good Yoshi several times, and I did some research on Yoshi, so I shouldn't be too far off. Mmk, here goes...

~As with any other matchup, proper spacing is key; however, be aware that his Dragonic Reverses and Dragonic Trots can really screw up your spacing if you aren't aware of them and/or don't see them coming. If you aren't aware of what these are (seeing as Yoshi isn't exactly the most commonly-played character), then go down to the 16th and 19th AT's in this Yoshi guide on Smashboards for an explanation and a video link of each:
*Yoshi Guide Link*
-Yoshi's grab game can get pretty dangerous. He can chain grab you with grab releases and go for the fair spike when you get off the ledge. This spike is powerful, and can kill you at medium percents (I believe around 50-60%).
-Yoshi's air game is a lot better than one might give him credit for; his bair and uair come out pretty quickly(the uair being a reasonably good kill move), and his nair comes out very quickly. In addition, his quick, long-reaching bair (and possibly his dair, too, but I'm not sure) can go through your tornado, as well as his tongue moves (his neutral B and his grab). Luckily, you have range and priority on his aerial game. Use this to your advantage, and space accordingly.
-Bairs are a dangerous facet of Yoshi's game, but since they have little knockback, you can shieldgrab these, and should do so.
-Dairs can be quite annoying shield-eaters; however, as mentioned earlier, you have better range with your attacks than his dairs do. If you are also in the air, then you can safely space a uair to counter his dair.

That's all that I can think of at the moment. Hopefully, this information will be helpful to you guys ;)
 

Mmac

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The Fair Spike can kill at about 50% In most stages. However it's distanced based as he can't be directly on the ledge if he is going to do it. However one thing I figured out is that Yoshi can actually delay the CG, and reduce the distance he slides when Re-Grabbing, so it's actually quite more possible than you think. If he does end up on the Ledge, he can release to Nair you, which can kill at about 80%. He also has Release attacks on the ground (Release to Usmash, Dash Attack, Nair, and DownB) Which can kill at the 110-120's (Excluding Dash attack, but it can combo into a Jab to Grab combo at Low %'s)

His Airgame clashes well against MetaKnight's, but he has the upper hand in the air. Although Dair is less effective in this matchup due to Uair outranging it, and Usmash having Invincibility Frames. Ground game is more or less Equal depending how you look at it. MetaKnight is MetaKnight, but Yoshi can actually stop all of MetaKnights approaches with just Two Moves (Pivot Grabs and Usmash)! They both do good in a defencive standpoint, but MetaKnight will have to play aggressively in most cases, due to Yoshi having a projectile. The Eggs are also good as an Anti-Air, and Edgeguarding.

In recoveries and edgeguarding, I actually think Yoshi is superior. First of all, NEITHER of the can physically edgeguard eachother, But Yoshi can pummel with Eggs, and can punish Airdodges depending on the distance. When I say neither, I mean that MetaKnight will probably never be able to touch Yoshi if he is in the air. His Air movement speed is just too poor to counter Yoshi's superior airspeed and DJAD, which is a problem because Edgeguarding is one of his notable aspects of his game.

Yoshi's Grabs is his number 1 move in this Matchup, and Yoshi wants to take every advantage of it. Not only it's the Number 1 think on gathering damage and kills, but is also the number 1 thing Yoshi can use to counter your trademark moves. In Theroy, MetaKnight shouldn't live past 100 in Flat stages, and 150 in most Platform heavy stages, and Walkoff stages, he's just plain screwed. He's got alot more Stage Counterpicks on MetaKnight, then MetaKnight has on Yoshi. What makes it worse is that 2 of the Stages are Neutral ones, and 3 of them are Semi Neutrals.

I actually say that Yoshi might actually have an advantage, if only slight, Just because of the stages. It pretty much comes down to Who wins the 1st Match. Also, Yoshi will have a better chance winning on your counterpick, then you do on his. (Mainly because it will have Walkoffs ;).) Even if you do win the 1st Match, it'll still wont be certain victory (Unless you counterpick characters).
 

Rh1thmz

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Mmac, I don't mean this as argument :p I'm just throwing out my point of view for the interpretation of the masses, whether it be right or wrong. I just wanted to say that so that I don't offend anyone.

MK can do his fair share of counterpicking. Picking stages with low platforms like Battlefield and Lylat Cruise can hurt Yoshi's release-grabbing CG game a lot. Also, Luigi's mansion hurts Yoshi's egg game quite a bit when the mansion is intact; it can become difficult for Yoshi to lob eggs unless he is lobbing through the center of the mansion...otherwise, he has to make straight throws.

In terms of recoveries, Yoshi does have an amazing second jump with super armor frames, but a well-timed dair from MK can really hurt Yoshi's recovery. Due to the fact that Yoshi doesn't really have an Up-B that is good for recovery purposes, once his second jump is gone, he becomes very easy to edgehog. This, of course, is a difficult task, but once accomplished, Yoshi's recovery is seriously hurting.

In terms of approach, MK's dtilts can help a lot for pressuring. They are quick and effective, and they are virtually impossible to shieldgrab (at least from my experience), which is a very good thing against Yoshi and his CG. Ftilts do their fair share of good, too, but they aren't as effective as dtilts due to the fact that they can be shieldgrabbed.

On a side note, a MK facing a Yoshi will want to be very careful and unpredictable about when he shields. One incorrect shield could result in a CG (aka epic fail). However, Yoshi's smashes are, actually, quite punishable, so shielding is still an important thing to do at the appropriate times.

Also, this match, for MK, is largely about predicting Yoshi's grabs. While CGing is a very dangerous part of Yoshi's game, a whiffed grab is very punishable by MK (possibly even by an Fsmash!).
 

Mmac

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Mmac, I don't mean this as argument :p I'm just throwing out my point of view for the interpretation of the masses, whether it be right or wrong. I just wanted to say that so that I don't offend anyone.
Meh, I feel its my dudy to reply to argue against my Point of View, so I'll guess I'll do so

MK can do his fair share of counterpicking. Picking stages with low platforms like Battlefield and Lylat Cruise can hurt Yoshi's release-grabbing CG game a lot. Also, Luigi's mansion hurts Yoshi's egg game quite a bit when the mansion is intact; it can become difficult for Yoshi to lob eggs unless he is lobbing through the center of the mansion...otherwise, he has to make straight throws.
Lylat cruise might be a legit counterpick, but Battlefield not so much. He still has that wide open center area. He can still attack out of release easily. He can also attack under the platforms with Usmash and his airs where he can't really defend himself, but the true can be said to Yoshi. It's not an advantage to Yoshi, but not to MetaKnight either. I'm not sure about Luigi's Mansion. but remember that his eggs have Splash Damage. He can actually hit you through the solid floor and the pillars if you are close enough to them.

In terms of recoveries, Yoshi does have an amazing second jump with super armor frames, but a well-timed dair from MK can really hurt Yoshi's recovery. Due to the fact that Yoshi doesn't really have an Up-B that is good for recovery purposes, once his second jump is gone, he becomes very easy to edgehog. This, of course, is a difficult task, but once accomplished, Yoshi's recovery is seriously hurting.
You are forgetting that Yoshi can Airdodge out of his Double Jump, which practically makes his Recovery invulnerable when used right. Even if his UpB isn't much of a boost, his 2nd Jump is usually more than enough to make it back.

In terms of approach, MK's dtilts can help a lot for pressuring. They are quick and effective, and they are virtually impossible to shieldgrab (at least from my experience), which is a very good thing against Yoshi and his CG. Ftilts do their fair share of good, too, but they aren't as effective as dtilts due to the fact that they can be shieldgrabbed.
Neither his Dtilt or Ftilt outrange Yoshi's Pivot Grab though, which is going to be a problem as I can see. Also, Yoshi is NOT a Shield Grab character. If the Yoshi you are facing are Shield Grabbing, then they're just plain not good Yoshi's. You can't really look at Yoshi like you would with every other character in the game. Good Yoshi's use Pivot Grabs as their primary grabs because it has the properties of a regular based Melee Grab, but being that it's ranged.

On a side note, a MK facing a Yoshi will want to be very careful and unpredictable about when he shields. One incorrect shield could result in a CG (aka epic fail). However, Yoshi's smashes are, actually, quite punishable, so shielding is still an important thing to do at the appropriate times.
Eh, which one is shielding? This sentence is not very clear....

Also, this match, for MK, is largely about predicting Yoshi's grabs. While CGing is a very dangerous part of Yoshi's game, a whiffed grab is very punishable by MK (possibly even by an Fsmash!).
Predicting Pivot Grabs is not so hard, Avoiding them is a completely different story, trust me. It seems like you haven't faced a Yoshi who isn't that heavy on the Pivots. You can never, EVER, punish a Pivot Grab with a Fsmash. It's just not going to happen, he's got plenty of time to shield and get away. You can barley punish him with your regular attacks!
 

Rh1thmz

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Your points are all very valid. The Yoshi player that I played was playing Yoshi online for the first time today (actually for the very first time today), so he wasn't really DRing or pivot grabbing that much, which would mean that you're right in the fact that I don't really know about his pivot grab =p In fact, today was the first time that I played a Yoshi and really did some research on him. The combined facts that I was playing against Yoshi for the first time today and that the Yoshi player is a very good Smasher in general are why we were having even matches. We played a ton of matches, though, so I learned a ton about Yoshi, in spite of the fact that I don't really know about his pivot grabbing game =p

Anyways, I'll get back on topic:

Well, I pretty much agree with most of what you said lol...

About that shieldgrabbing statement:
Rh1thmz said:
On a side note, a MK facing a Yoshi will want to be very careful and unpredictable about when he [the MK] shields. One incorrect shield [by MK] could result in a CG [by Yoshi](aka epic fail). However, Yoshi's smashes are, actually, quite punishable, so shielding is still an important thing [for MK] to do at the appropriate times.
Hopefully, that clears things up.

Well, I've said everything that I learned about Yoshi. If you had anything else that you wanted to mention about the Yoshi/MK matchup, whether it be positive or negative for either character, please say it; I'm sure that the MK boards would be more than happy to hear more about the matchup :)
 

Mmac

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Well, the sentence is true, can't really argue with that.

It seems like the main issue now is Stage's. I believe that along with the stuff he has on MetaKnight, he can easily pick a stage to exploit his advantages to the fullest. Current rules state that you need to have an odd number of Neutral Stages. Neutrals are:

Final Destination
Battlefield
Smashville
Yoshi's Island

Now, he needs to include at least one more Neutral from the Neutral/Counterpick section. The most common ones are Lylat Cruise or Pokemon Stadium 1. If Lylat cruise is in there, then it will be 2/3 MetaKnight, usually ending up on Battlefield or Yoshi's Island. If Pokemon Stadium 1 is in the mix, then it will usually end up on Pokemon Stadium 1 or Smashville. Personally, I think PS1 and SV will make more of an impact for Yoshi on MetaKnight, then BF/YI will make an impact for MetaKnight on Yoshi. Same is true on 7 Neutral Stages, but will probably drift into Yoshi's favour again due to Delfino Plaza being the most common pick.

Now, MetaKnight's Counterpicks is another issue. MetaKnight will have advantages on his Counterpicks, but never a solid advantage on his stages. Yeah, he has an advantage, but Yoshi can just as easily win if you aren't careful. Yoshi's Counterpicks will make you cry. Seriously.

Castle Siege - Walkoff's and a Final Destinationish stage
Corneria - Flat one side, Wall Infinite on the other. Plus Small Blast Zones
Green Hill Zone - Walkoffs
Distant Planet - Walkoff

Now, you can only ban one of them... would that really make a difference? Probably not. MetaKnight will always be at a severe disadvantage on Yoshi's Counterpick, no matter what you ban. It pretty comes down to that first match. If you don't win that match, then you have pretty much lost if you continue to use MetaKnight (Which is what we are basing it off of). It makes it even more troublesome if Lylat isn't present.

I think it's actually an advantage, but it's also dependent on the stage itself and what is present. but even that, isn't a certain victory. At the end, MetaKnight actually has to work harder to achieve a victory than Yoshi. If MetaKnight has to work harder, then thats pretty much a clear sign that it's in Yoshi's Advantage.
 

Rh1thmz

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Sorry that it took me so long to reply, viparagon...I've been too busy to give a well-thought-out reply lately.

Anyways, I'll do what summarizing that I can. If you, Mmac, or anyone else has any disagreement with my summarization, please do post; I don't want to suggest false information about the matchup. On that note, let's get started, shall we?



~As with any other matchup, proper spacing is key; however, be aware that his Dragonic Reverses and Dragonic Trots can really screw up your spacing if you aren't aware of them and/or don't see them coming. If you aren't aware of what these are (seeing as Yoshi isn't exactly the most commonly-played character), then go down to the 16th and 19th AT's in this Yoshi guide on Smashboards for an explanation and a video link of each:
*Yoshi Guide Link*

-Yoshi's grab game is very dangerous. He can chain grab you with grab releases and go for the fair spike when you get off the ledge. This spike is powerful and can kill you around 50% on most stages. He can also Grab Release-->Usmash for a star KO when you are around 110% on most stages. Yoshi can also choose to use a much wider variety of moves with which to follow up a grab release; in essence, it is VERY important that you avoid getting grabbed as much as possible (especially at high percents). The one weakness of this throw is that if it whiffs (from a spotdodge, etc.), the grapple properties of it scream of punishment from you with a move of your choice (except fsmash, of course).

-Although the CG is very dangerous, this doesn't mean that shielding is still not a smart option (at the right times). His smashes, for example, are quite punishable when shielded.

-Yoshi's air game is a lot better than one might give him credit for; his bair and uair come out pretty quickly (the uair being a reasonably good kill move), and his nair comes out very quickly. In addition, his quick, long-reaching bair (at certain angles) and possibly his dair (I'm not sure about the dair) can go through your tornado, as well as his tongue moves (his neutral B and his grab). Luckily, your aerial game has range and priority on his aerial game. Use this to your advantage, and space accordingly.

-Bairs are a dangerous, multi-purposed facet of Yoshi's game, but since they have little knockback, you can shieldgrab these, and should do so whenever you can. A smart Yoshi will use this as a hit-and-run tactic to pressure your shield, though; if this happens, it might be time to whip out an MT (or a tilt if he lands close enough to you). When you are at higher percentages (about 80%+), Yoshi might go past you with a bair and try to pivot grab you into a Usmash. Be wary of this option, and spotdodge the pivot grab when it comes and punish it...or you might be able to pull off a dsmash as Yoshi lands if you're quick enough.

-Dairs can be quite annoying shield-eaters; however, as mentioned earlier, you have better range with your attacks than his dairs do. If you are also in the air when he dairs, you can safely space a uair to counter his dair.

-Yoshi can be very hard to gimp because his second jump has a solid number of super armor frames during the start of the jump. Don't forget that he can airdodge or attack in the middle of that uber-long jump, too. If you do manage to eliminate Yoshi's second jump, though, his poor Up-B recovery makes him a very easy target for gimping; however, this is much easier said than done.

-Yoshi has some VERY nasty counterpicks on you, such as Castle Siege, Corneria, Green Hil Zone, and Distant Planet. Yoshi likes his stages because they either have walk-offs (Ex.: C. Siege (2nd stage), Green Hill Zone), walls where he can do infinite grab release combos on you (Ex.: Corneria), mostly-flat stage layouts (Ex.: C. Siege (3rd stage), Final Destination), or a combination of these elements. Luckily, you have some counterpicking factors on your side, as well; stages with platforms that are low to the ground (Ex.: Battlefield, Lylat Cruise) are great counterpicks because the platforms can catch you from a grab release, thereby destroying a good number of Yoshi's CG attempts. Also, in general, you fare better on stages that have lots of small platforms than Yoshi does, since your sword's disjointed hitbox is a big asset against Yoshi's aerials (don't forget that smaller platforms mean less chaingrabbing that Yoshi can do on them). Rainbow Cruise can be an excellent counterpick against Yoshi in this regard, but some of the walkoffs on the top of the rotation of the stage can be very deadly CG spots for Yoshi, so it's a double-edged sword.

-Don't underestimate Yoshi's eggs simply because they are an awkward projectile. The eggs have slight splash damage (due to the egg shards), and they actually have priority over every single one of your B moves -- even the Shuttle Loop. Your aerials can't cancel out the eggs, either. This leaves not too many options besides airdodging and fast falling in the air, which makes Yoshi's eggs a great anti-air tool.

That pretty much covers the bases. If Mmac or someone else could touch on the pivot grabbing topic, that would be awesome, because I don't know a whole lot about it.
 

Mmac

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Not really much to say about Pivots, It has the same amount of Startup and After Lag as regular non-ranged grabs, while actually being longer than his other grabs. With QDS Pivots, he can do it on the spot.

I also forgot about Yoshi's Island Melee as a heavy counterpick. Yoshi can CG him to the Hill, then Fthrow Chain him up the hill for a runoff kill.


There's need to be more MetaKnights in this discussion though >_>
 

Rh1thmz

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We definitely need more MK's here discussing this...lol. Thing is, there aren't a whole lot of MK's that have played against a decent Yoshi before, so it's kinda to be expected =\ Yoshi isn't exactly the most commonly-played character...but he can be a real handful (especially if the individual brawling Yoshi doesn't know the matchup).

And as a side question...
pardon my lack of knowledge of the terminology, but what does QDS mean?

As another side comment...
I was about to ask if you wanted to do some friendlies online, but realized that my East Coast location is nowhere even close to BC, Canada >.< Quite the bummer to me...I was wanting to get some more experience with a good Yoshi player =(
 

Mmac

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And as a side question...
pardon my lack of knowledge of the terminology, but what does QDS mean?
Quick Double Stick, using both the C-Stick and Control stick to Pivot Grab. I think it's more commonly known as Pivot Boosting or Wave Pivoting, I dunno, alot of people call it different things....

I call it Double Stick because there's also a Single Stick variation
 

Rh1thmz

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Yes, but that promotes bad spacing. MK can just pop around for a grab, dash attack, tilt, or just a Dsmash if he sees this coming from Yoshi. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it makes more sense to me to use retreating bairs than to bair past MK.
 

Excellence

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Actually it does not. You've seen me play Yoshi before Rh1thmz, and I used retreating Bairs because I was promoting shieldpressure. However, if I wanted to I could Bair past you and follow with a pivot grab leading into a spike. All of these are appropriate actions, but retreating is best until 80% at which point you can CG Meta and Up Smash him at 115% for the kill.
 

Rh1thmz

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Actually it does not. You've seen me play Yoshi before Rh1thmz, and I used retreating Bairs because I was promoting shieldpressure. However, if I wanted to I could Bair past you and follow with a pivot grab leading into a spike. All of these are appropriate actions, but retreating is best until 80% at which point you can CG Meta and Up Smash him at 115% for the kill.
Fair enough; I'll add it into my huge, honkin' post above=p

I probably didn't get this in there in the first place because I don't remember you really doing that with your bairs when I played you...:p


Anyways, thanks for pointing that out, Excellence (and viparagon for getting the topic started). If anyone else has any corrections to address pertaining to my big post, please address them; any info is good info:)

Also, big thanks to Mmac, too, for really giving some great topics to mention in that post (and for supplying a good portion of the info in it...>.<)
 

Mmac

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With full momentum and a full Bair, you can actually go right past MetaKnight Shield Grab without troubles.

Also Excellence, you do know that you can CG MetaKnight off the ledge into a Rising Nair for a easy kill at 80% Right?
 

Rh1thmz

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With full momentum and a full Bair, you can actually go right past MetaKnight Shield Grab without troubles.
I wasn't too clear on the grab. I meant that you could quickly drop your shield, turn around, and grab (as opposed the shield grabbing). I'm not sure if you can do this or not, since I've never really had this happen to me, but it makes sense that I could, since these are all relatively quick actions.
 

Mmac

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Dsmash will probably beat it though, but I don't think he'll be fast enough to turn around to grab/attacks.

You know, by saying Yoshi vs. MetaKnight 60:40 Yoshi, you would think that an entire wave would come and contest >_>
 

Rh1thmz

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Lol, you have a point there. I agree with you that the Yoshi-MK matchup is a lot closer than people might think, but I'm not so sure about it being so much in Yoshi's favor. Yoshi does have a disjointed hitbox to contend with, which causes the outprioritizing of a good portion of his aerials. The fact that no one that plays MK has played a decent Yoshi might put the matchup in Yoshi's favor, anyways >.<

I'm not so sure about what exactly the ratio (for the lack of a better term) of this matchup is, but it is hard to give a ratio to the matchup due to the fact that the stage on which the two combatants are fighting can have a huge effect on the outcome of the matchup (or decide the outcome, in severe cases). My most educated guess would be that 55:45 in MK's favor would be a bit more accurate, though.

Think about it. If MK spotdodges a good portion of Yoshi's grab attempts, they aren't impossible to punish by any means. Yoshi will get some grabs on MK, but on a non-walkoff stage and when MK is at lower percentages, the CG won't have many other dramatic effects other than sizable damage. MK's disjointed fair should be able to poke through Yoshi's bair if spaced properly, and the same goes with MK's uair against Yoshi's dair. What Yoshi has going for him is good combo ability, a very potent CG, and some strong star KO's, which MK always has a hard time with. Yoshi may be fast, but MK is faster. While Yoshi has the ability to own an unprepared MK, a properly-spaced MK will give Yoshi a very hard time.
 

Mmac

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Yeah, but trying to Spotdodge Yoshi's Pivots are much easier said than done. Especially harder if you are landing. It also makes it that you have to be really careful when approaching.

I guess there really isn't anymore to be said. I guess if I have to prove my point, I guess I have to beat up a crapload of MetaKnights :laugh: . Maybe I should do something like Xyro did.
 

Affinity

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Is there any way one of you guys can sum up the Yoshi match-up in one post so it can be put in the OP?

Sorry, I haven't really been able to keep track of your guys' discussion.
 

Mmac

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Personally, I wish more people would have participated and at least discuss what the Ratio should be.

I guess we have to go with 50:50. Even if MetaKnight has a slight advantage, the Stage List and the Ruleset work completely against him in this Matchup. I think it's worse though, but I guess I got to prove my point physically first.
Plus it would be nice for MetaKnight to have one disadvantage, then people will stop *****ing on how broken he is >_>

You can use Rh1thmz summary from above
 

Mmac

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I'm really disappointed on the lack of activity and contesting of my statements... also double post >_>.

Anyways, I'm putting my Stage Theory into a statistical form. Please keep in mind that assume that both MetaKnight and Yoshi are at an equal skill and are "Pure" Mains (Wont counterpick characters). The values themselves are rough estimates too, and I feel that MetaKnight doesn't have an advantage on stages such as Battlefield and Yoshi's Island.

Code:
[B][U]Scenario A (5 Stage Neutral with Lylat Cruise)[/U][/B]

Round 1 (Neutral Stage Battlefield/Yoshi's Island)

Yoshi - 50% Chance of winning
MetaKnight 50% Chance of winning

Round 2a/3b (Yoshi's Counterpick)

Yoshi - 80%
MetaKnight - 20% 

Round 2b/3a (MetaKnight's Counterpick)

Yoshi - 35%
MetaKnight - 65%

Total - 55/45 Yoshi


[B][U]Scenario B (5 Stage Neutral with Pokemon Stadium 1)[/U][/B]

Round 1 (Neutral Stage Smashville/Pokemon Stadium 1)

Yoshi - 60%
MetaKnight 40%

Round 2a/3b (Yoshi's Counterpick)

Yoshi - 80%
MetaKnight - 20% 

Round 2b/3a (MetaKnight's Counterpick)

Yoshi - 35%
MetaKnight - 65%

Total 58/42 Yoshi


[B][U]Scenario C (7 Stage Neutral with Delfino Plaza/Castle Siege)[/U][/B]

Round 1 (Neutral Stage PS1/SV (Delfino in Rare cases))

Yoshi - 60% (65% on Delfino)
MetaKnight 40% (35% on Delfino)

Round 2a/3b (Yoshi's Counterpick)

Yoshi - 80%
MetaKnight - 20% 

Round 2b/3a (MetaKnight's Counterpick)

Yoshi - 35%
MetaKnight - 65%

Total 58/42 Yoshi (60/40 if Delfino is Neutral)


[B][U]Scenario D (7 Stage Neutral with Halberd)[/U][/B]

Round 1 (Neutral Stage With Battlefield/Yoshi's Island)

Yoshi - 50%
MetaKnight 50%

Round 2a/3b (Yoshi's Counterpick)

Yoshi - 80%
MetaKnight - 20% 

Round 2b/3a (MetaKnight's Counterpick)

Yoshi - 35%
MetaKnight - 65%

Total 55/45 Yoshi
Best out of 5 Matches are generally the same.

The general Ratio of this Matchup is at least 45:55 Yoshi, roughly estimated, and now what I feel what the ratio should be. Yoshi really does well against the almighty MetaKnight, and how the stages are set push it into a slight advantage.

I don't know why I am being uncontested, I would much have some opinions or criticism or something. this is a ghost town >_>
 

Rh1thmz

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You're not being contested for a few reasons:

1. The fact that MK is considered the best character in the eyes of the public (and the fact that he's quite easy to pick up, even though being awesome at him is a different story) makes him a commonly-picked character, which means that more scrubs will be drawn to him in hopes of getting an easy win. So, most of the MKs here are scrubs who don't know what to post about any matchup in the first place. Don't get me wrong; there are some really good MK players on the boards (Dojo and M2K to name a few), but there are lots of scrubby MKs, too. Anyways, on to reason 2:

2. Most MK's have never played against a good Yoshi before, so they don't have a general idea of what this matchup is like, which means that they have a valid reason not to post. Yoshi isn't commonly played, either, because he's kind of an awkward character. The good people on the boards probably aren't posting because of a lack of experience in the MK-Yoshi matchup.


Anyways, I, too, wish that someone else who has experience in this matchup would post.

I agree with you that the Yoshi-MK matchup is very close, honestly. I don't really have anything to say about your statements, myself, other than the fact that MK has a disjointed hitbox with which to poke through Yoshi's attacks and through platforms, and that MK has decent range, too. Then again, I already said that, so I'm just reminding you of that fact. It's not like all of Yoshi's combo attacks are going to connect all of the time, but he does have some dangerous combo attacks when they land. The counterpicks from Yoshi can get REALLY nasty, though >.> That's definitely one thing that Yoshi has going for him.

I'm starting to repeat myself, so I'll stop typing for now =\
 

Mmac

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1. I'm not basing my judgements on scrubs though, I should never do...

2. I know, but there used to be good MetaKnights that have and contributed to the old MetaKnight vs. Yoshi thread, and knew the matchup well. There should be people contributing, even if they don't know the matchup well.

I guess I'll start the summary tomorrow, I don't think it's going to move anywhere until we get to a new character...
 
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