Meta Knight's New Match Up Thread: Ice Climbers

[SAX]

Not sure if this has been mentioned but if you get hit by ICs' Fair at very low % they can guarantee a grab follow-up. Gay.

I'm also very wary of tornadoing ICs as a hit-and-run approach. What's up with their pivot grab range? I don't fully understand the mechanics of pivot grabbing vs a tornado. Here's a part of a match that demonstrates this problem: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O64P-Zol6ts&feature=player_detailpage#t=21s

Oh and be very careful when platform camping cuz ICs can platform cancel and grab you right there without warning >_>

ICs shouldnt be able to pivot grab your tornado. Only if you space it bad, which you did. Never just charge at ICs like that. You have to space it to where the top of the tornado is hitting popos head.

 

[ballistick]

My friend starting getting tired of playing me with ICs. The easiest way to defeat them (at a casual level though we are pretty good, I dont know if it would work at a higher level) is to first separate Nana and Popo near the edge of a stage, then grab Popo and throw him off the edge (the backthrow has more range) or fsmash or any move that has a sideways backlash, stop Nana from getting to Popo and Popo should die due to his crappy recovery on his own. Ive beaten a level 9 IC and my mate comfortably using this technique

 

[BadKarma]

My friend starting getting tired of playing me with ICs. The easiest way to defeat them (at a casual level though we are pretty good, I dont know if it would work at a higher level) is to first separate Nana and Popo near the edge of a stage, then grab Popo and throw him off the edge (the backthrow has more range) or fsmash or any move that has a sideways backlash, stop Nana from getting to Popo and Popo should die due to his crappy recovery on his own. Ive beaten a level 9 IC and my mate comfortably using this technique

does your friend not know how to use ice block to delay mk from hitting nana? or how to use side B to recover with popo? LOL if you separate ice climbers kill nana with all your might, she has no DI or anything.

 

[Exdeath]

does your friend not know how to use ice block to delay mk from hitting nana? or how to use side B to recover with popo? LOL if you separate ice climbers kill nana with all your might, she has no DI or anything.

Nana definitely has DI, it's just usually the worst possible horizontal DI because she's running toward the blast zone (to get to Popo).

 

[Good Ol' Tree]

Just out of curiosity, is Uthrow viable in this MU?

 

[ぱみゅ]

IMO, assuming both ICs are grounded, depends if you grabbed Popo or Nana.
If Popo, it is perfectly viable to Uthrow > nanabuse
If Nana, is better to just Fthrow and shield from Popo's attack

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Just go with Fthrow because it ends faster. If you are lucky the other is nearby to get hit by the 'deadweight' for a little knockback. Make is an excellent choice to separate them.

 

[Toronto Joe]

Spam nair oos

 

[ぱみゅ]

Spam dair oos

Fix'd
10fixes

 

[M@v]

Kill nana. Time out sopo. If you do it right popo will have to kill himself tto get nana back to have a chance of touching you.

 

[ぱみゅ]

sopo can chaingrab Metaknight by his own, it deals some crazy damage, but can't reliably kill you.

 

[TSM ZeRo]

Kill nana. Time out sopo. If you do it right popo will have to kill himself tto get nana back to have a chance of touching you.

That's actually a great strategy!

Sopo can't really touch or kill Meta Knight, and if you're camping him he's pretty much done. I have seen IC's players kill themselves to get Nana again to have a chance to kill Meta Knight's stock.

 

[M@v]

sopo can chaingrab Metaknight by his own, it deals some crazy damage, but can't reliably kill you.

Sopo's Cg takes mk to 60% plus followup, usually fsmash.

That's actually a great strategy!

Sopo can't really touch or kill Meta Knight, and if you're camping him he's pretty much done. I have seen IC's players kill themselves to get Nana again to have a chance to kill Meta Knight's stock.

Yeah. I used this strategy to beat future's icies at apex. Its kinda gay I'll admit, but I forced him to kill himself to get nana back on one of his stocks. Almost timed him out too but he got desperate and I got the kill.


I still hate the mu because of how campy it is, but mk vs icies is my most experienced mu with mk, mainly because even before I mained mk, I've used him as a secondary for Falco's bad mus for the longest time.

Some quick mu pointers too.

-Almost always fthrow unless the other climber is not close. If you grabbed popo, you can sometimes get away with dthrow because nana's ai can be extremely ******** at times, but its still risky.

-Be careful with fair against good icies. Cheese showed me icies can grab you if they shield your fair, even if it isn't a powershield.

-Don't tornado approach. Lain showed me the hard way icies can pivot grab mk out of it ;_;. Only tornado if they are above, or in the air. There are better options than nado if they are separated.

-They don't always have to upb to recover low if both of them are together. Popo and nana together can get some ridiculous height out of side b if they are together.

 

[Exdeath]

Trying to just time out SoPo only works if he doesn't approach you and you have a strong percent lead. If you're trying to keep SoPo alive then he will have a very solid psychological advantage over you and you will probably be at a disadvantage in the MU.

 

[theunabletable]

^That's pretty true, actually. If they know your goal is to time them out, they know which options you're gonna pick, and when, because the options that actually kill them don't even go through their head anymore. Like they might have fewer options, but if you're not aware of everything that can happen when you try this, you can have fewer options than usual, and not even realize it, which can be really destructive. atleast imo

Actually this is my personal best MU, and I feel like being aggro is the best way, for me personally anyways. Not like being dumb, but going at them with stuff like FH fairs, pressuring them with dairs, and tornadoing them.

Like, imo, you wanna be safe, but you don't wanna run away. There's nothing to run away FROM, if you're up close to them at an area they can't grab, they can't really uair you, and they can't grab you, and you get more reward for what you hit with.

Idk baiting for a mistake while being close enough to them to be physically able to punish a lot, while sometimes throwing out fairs where you're above their grab range, or tornados that are above their grab range works best, for me.

This is by far my personal best MU, and it's my favorite MU, and being semi aggressive (aggressive doesn't mean dumb, like don't just throw out stuff that can't get grabbed. Throw out stuff they can't grab, and that ***** them if you hit them), works really well for me. ****** Nana is really important, but you have to really be watching both at the same time. ICs are always waiting for you to commit to something that'll hit Nana, that way they can uair you. When they're seperated, play it for a moment like doubles, and be fully aware of what both are doing.

 

[Exdeath]

I only play aggro vs. bad ICs. When I play against good ICs, I play as safe as possible and I don't follow up on Popo/Nana unless I'm certain that the other can't hit me for it.

 

[M@v]

Here's the flow of how I play the mu:

Camp, Camp, Camp,

(They make a mistake that lets me split them)

-I go 100% aggro to whichever one is closest to being offstage, or is offstage, and do all in my power to gimp them asap before the other can jump in. If I get one off stage the other's close, I'll knock him/her back then go back off stage.

If it was nana I killed, start timing out popo, if it was popo I killed, hey I'm a stock up. Rinse and Repeat

 

[Orion*]

Trying to just time out SoPo only works if he doesn't approach you and you have a strong percent lead. If you're trying to keep SoPo alive then he will have a very solid psychological advantage over you and you will probably be at a disadvantage in the MU.

this
10this

also, nado is gay when used properly.

 

[Myollnir]

Camp, wait for a mistake, nado so they're in the air, **** Nana, watch out for Popo's CG (it can go until almost 70% + regrab), game.
60-40 MK

 

[Orion*]

waiting for mistakes doesn't work as much when you play players at a top level. it happens of course but relying on it is bad.

 

[quote]

I don't play metaknight but I do have some decent experience playing against IC's. Some general stuff to know.

If the IC's send out an ice block and chases it with popo, just jump and land on a platform. It's a free grab for them if it touches you or if it gets shielded because of the shield/hit stun.

You want to separate the two IC's. It's pretty obvious, but it's important enough that it should be your entire game plan. Every time it happens, you kill their desync game, their grab game, deal 30-50 damage to 1 or both IC's and get a chance to gimp nana. This should be your goal.

Playing a ground game is riskier but very rewarding. Most characters have better options to separate IC's on while on/the ground. One IC's player I know spends the whole game trying to keep his opponents on platforms/air camping for this reason.

Grabs are good against IC's. It's a guaranteed way to separate the two. If you get the oppotunity to get one, do so. More importantly they can't CG out of a throw which is one of the reasons it's so effective. Just try to make sure that it's an easy punish or a trustworthy read because you do have to get close to use it.

Don't let IC's set up a desync game. You'll never gain anything from it. Unless you're planning on timing them out, keep a constant threat on them so it's not an option.

Sharking is extremely good against IC's do it you ever get the chance. It's not like they can really even do anything to you. The only thing that hits significantly beneath them is Dair, and I can't even begin to describe just how bad it is in this game.

Counterpick to brinstar >> Rainbow Cruise >> Delfino
Brinstar is terrible beyond belief for IC's, expecially ones that like to play desync'd. You can shark easily. The little attatchment in the middle makes it hard for IC's to desync and absorbs ice blocks. The side platforms aren't convenient to Uair. The stage is just so bad for them. The slanted ground on brinstar also changes the timing for the chaingrab so it's slightly more difficult to do. Oh, and I almost forgot about the acid interfering with the chaingrab. Believe it or not, the earlier things are more relevant.

Anyway, Cruise is the next best thing. IC's are forced to move around and that puts them in the air. This shuts off a lot of desyncing and chaingrab opportunitys. You can shark here too.

If both of those options are shot off for whatever reason, Delfino is a good option. There are lots of opportunitys for sharking. There are lot's of split levels. If you have the high ground, IC's can't sit at a distance and send out ice blocks and are forced to get in the air. On any part of the stage with water. Just run straight into the water and go off far enough that IC's would have to burn their second jump to chase you. At this point, there's litlerally nothing IC's can do to punish you. Using their second jump kills all of their options. At this point, it you are in the water, they have to land in the water to hit you. Just avoid it, wait for them to land and punish. You can also just get back to the stage, and start taking cheap shots at them while they try to get back. When the stage transition comes up, you can just wait on them to get up because they don't have any attack to fire off and still be able to make it back to the stage. It's great for burning out the clock.

IC's want to counterpick to FD then smashville in that order. Ban FD and practice against IC's on smashville when you get the chance.

Playing with IC's is extremely stressful as is playing agaisnt them. There's so many things that can go wrong. Separations, dropped grabs, the difficulty of desyncs and chaingrabs, nana being dumb, the power of counterpicks against IC's and so on and so forth, can really work a number on IC's psychologically. If your can get in their head make them impatient, etc. You stand a good chance of winning the matchup.

The converse is also very true. I've seen good players, and players that know the matchup well, punt it because they can't keep their head on straight. Don't let your self think outside of the game. The methods will differ from person to person. If you have something you do/use to calm your nerves before playing IC's do so. Repeat afterwards as well, you can't let a loss, or how you barely won affect you next round.

When you get grabbed, you need some way to calm down. This is where the stress levels are highest in the match. I've seen it happen time and time again, someone is sitting next to the IC's player and raging so hard that he gets out of the chaingrab only to get regrabbed half a second later because he's too mad to tell the difference between a jump button and an attack button. Anyway before you start, make sure you know what this is. Personally, I view it as a time to rest my brain and space out. View it as the time between kicking a field goal and setting up another kickoff in football. It's a chance to relax.


One last thing: all IC's drop grabs. I'm not kidding when I say this, expect the chaingrab to be dropped. If you don't believe me, go watch the higher level players. It happens to them with more frequency than you'd think.

 

[theunabletable]

If the IC's send out an ice block and chases it with popo, just jump and land on a platform. It's a free grab for them if it touches you or if it gets shielded because of the shield/hit stun.

I like full hop fair in this situation, because it can't get shieldgrabbed, and the hitlag from hitting the iceblock makes the hitbox stay out longer, and it'll cause you to hit only Popo because Nana is behind from the iceblock, so you seperate them easily.

But yeah mostly all good information. The calming down thing is a really good idea.

 

[Joaco]

I usually take a stock, kill Nana and camp SoPo the rest of the match.

 

[billybeegood]

I feel that in this matchup your ability to box out the climbers is unimportant, your best plan of attack it to tornado BEHIND the blizzards picking both of them up, immediatly followed by a shuttle loop, since nana has a 15 frame input delay you're garenteed to hit one of them

when you have one of them offstage just continue to jab by the ledge until one of them dies.

in this matchup it is a good idea to ban halberd and delfino because it is safe for the ice climbers to go under the stage and spike you if you're not careful.

a competant ice climbers will always make sure that he doesnt spam grabs, nobody likes grab spammers as we're all aware, however if he does try and grab spam you make sure you spotdodge followed by rolling behind him, THIS TACTIC WORKS EVERY TIME

Might add a bit more later, you're welcome

 

[Masky]

..........

 

[C.J.]

uhhh, 15 frame delay for nana? Pretty sure it's like... 4 or 5.

 

[holyv]

Dair ic's you will be fine, get % and give them that lagless AWESUM dsmash.

 

[Exdeath]

uhhh, 15 frame delay for nana? Pretty sure it's like... 4 or 5.

IIRC it's a 6 frame delay.

Dair ic's you will be fine, get % and give them that lagless AWESUM dsmash.

ICs have a guaranteed dash grab if you Dsmash them with the first hit except for maybe the very tip.

 

[TKD]

This discussion should be about how we **** IC. If you aren't aware that we **** IC, you're not allowed here

Umm some tricks...
- If you let the CPU Climber get to the ledge with their upb, you can go off-stage and nair as the player's climbers tries to zip back. The main climber doesn't have a hit-box so he'll be KOed similarly to ZSS.
- Yes, you can SDI into IC and dair them when they blizzard you, but if they whiff it, you can dash attack, dash grab, or walk dsmash them (assuming it's not a desynch thing: if they're SH blizzarding, you can dash and upb inbetween those). You can also glide attack them from above if you were already gliding.
- You can rising uair their recovery icicles when they recover from above to catch up to them with ease.
- Tornado from mid range hits them easily since it's tough to see coming. They should be overwhelmed with all your other options to the point that tornado just works. If it won't succeed, just go from hitting their shield to moving away + cooldown. If you move in with ground nado slowly enough, they'll just hit themselves by attempting pivot grab. I like to tornado when they're kind of cornered so there's room to move back if they'll be able to block it. I don't abuse high tornado (the one tippered from above so pivot grab can't reach it) because there are lots of other, quicker, easier to prepare moves available.
- Oh yeah FHfair is a good approach. Probably mentioned already.
- Also wait a bit between spaced dtilts so MK doesn't scoot forwards with each one. They can't do anything against this.

I really don't think this is 60/40. Not at all. This is EASY.

 

[KassandraNova]

I've heard practicing against a CPU ICs can also help a bit, just because it helps you get used to killing nana, ect.

I tried doing this, and it didn't feel like it helped really...@_@

I just try to act like the floor is lava when playing this mu. I also haven't played many ICs tho. :X

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Umm some tricks...
- If you let the CPU Climber get to the ledge with their upb, you can go off-stage and nair as the player's climbers tries to zip back. The main climber doesn't have a hit-box so he'll be KOed similarly to ZSS.

This is mad useful.

- Tornado from mid range hits them easily since it's tough to see coming. They should be overwhelmed with all your other options to the point that tornado just works. If it won't succeed, just go from hitting their shield to moving away + cooldown. If you move in with ground nado slowly enough, they'll just hit themselves by attempting pivot grab. I like to tornado when they're kind of cornered so there's room to move back if they'll be able to block it. I don't abuse high tornado (the one tippered from above so pivot grab can't reach it) because there are lots of other, quicker, easier to prepare moves available.

This is also mad useful, but I disagree about nado above them. That's also really good, plus you're already higher up, making it easier for you to retreat to a platform.

I really don't think this is 60/40. Not at all. This is EASY.

This. ICs is super free.

Always strike FD and SV; they suck against ICs. I personally really like Battlefield and Yoshi's Island; CS is the only other stage that's commonly a starter that's any good for them at all. Ban FD, scrooge like hell on SV.