Budget Player Cadet_
Smash Hero
Ah, see, usually, I'm so high up that a shorthop won't cut it. They have to commit to something a little more dangerous to hit me. This works especially well on battlefield, due to the high top platform.
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Meta Knight's New Match Up Thread: Ice Climbers
- Thread starter lilseph
- Start date
Blacknight99923
Smash Champion
ice climbers don't really have a reliable way of beating nado straight out. But if metaknights getting grabbed even 1 out of 3 times he's nadod and the ic's is consistent with the grab or is just getting 50% off it, its a pretty big risk to take in my opinion to just "throw out"
that being said, if you using nado correclty you should not be getting grabbed.
that being said, if you using nado correclty you should not be getting grabbed.
Budget Player Cadet_
Smash Hero
DIing up and into blizzard -> jump Dair. Good idea y/n? I've used this with fairly high success rates; it usually separates them, too, making Blizzard a very risky move.
KassandraNova
Smash Master
When I play vs ICs I'm so paranoid about the grab that I forget how much damage those ice kids can do by themselves without the grab. O_O
AfroQT
Smash Master
Yo this is free just start the match, rush in, and do some mk **** and you got it.
Nah real talk tho this matchup is mad gay, if you play campy you'll like it.
Best thing to do in this matchup is at the character selection screen pick Snake then hit any button you want at any time you want for victory.
Nah real talk tho this matchup is mad gay, if you play campy you'll like it.
Best thing to do in this matchup is at the character selection screen pick Snake then hit any button you want at any time you want for victory.
I know this match-up incredibly well. Played Meep 1000x.
- Contrary to popular belief, do not be afraid to play a ground game with IC's. Well spaced d-tilts are very good. Get in the habit of NOT spamming d-tilt because if Nana or Popo powershields one that's a freegrab. And if you get a trip into the d-tilt follow in with a f-air or tornado.
- Force IC's to use their shield. Staying within an uncomfortable range usually does the trick. Basically, if you can get the IC's to use half of their shield then tornado will almost always shieldstab.
- If an IC's is near the ledge feel free to tornado. There's usually a good chance that you'll push Nana or Popo off ledge due to the hitstun forcing them into the tornado even on a good shield.
- Keep the IC's underneath after a tornado. Short hop u-air to frame trap and bait the panic d-air. Then relaunch in the air. On Battlefield, it's very good to keep your tornado slightly underneath the lowest platforms. And always, always, always, tornado if IC's are trying to land on a platform making sure to have the tornado rise underneath them.
- Don't do laggy moves on the ground. Just don't do it unless you're extremely positive that you're punishing IC's for a laggy move they made themselves. There should be no reason that you're getting grabbed by falling and doing a laggy move on the ground with MK.
- If you get caught in Blizzard, this can be GOOD. Smash DI INTO the Blizzard and spam d-air. The recovery frames on Blizzard is not good and yes you can literally punish IC's for doing this move. It should almost always force them to split as well.
- When you're gimping Nana and Popo is trying to help BE SMART. Make the player become more cautious when they try to save their Nana by switching the pressure to them randomly. This can alot of the time actually score you a stock rather than just scoring a kill on Nana.
- Respect IC's u-air. D-air camping in this match-up is risky due to their very high priority u-airs. U-airs can also punish d-air on shield. Instead, bait the u-air and intercept with nado to catch them before they land on the ground.
- Grounded up+b works really, really well on IC's. If you're on a platform and you think they're going to try to jump up towards you just up+b and you'll probably hit them on the way up.
- Make sure you always tornado above IC's pivot grab hitbox.
That's about it. The main reason most MK's lose this match is because they either get impatient or they get dumb and do laggy moves. Do not play AFRAID. MK can be at 100% 3rd stock with IC's up 2 stock and still comeback because playing this match-up perfectly means MK won't die. IC's do not have a strong offense against MK at all. So it's only a matter of how well you can open up that IC's defense.
- Contrary to popular belief, do not be afraid to play a ground game with IC's. Well spaced d-tilts are very good. Get in the habit of NOT spamming d-tilt because if Nana or Popo powershields one that's a freegrab. And if you get a trip into the d-tilt follow in with a f-air or tornado.
- Force IC's to use their shield. Staying within an uncomfortable range usually does the trick. Basically, if you can get the IC's to use half of their shield then tornado will almost always shieldstab.
- If an IC's is near the ledge feel free to tornado. There's usually a good chance that you'll push Nana or Popo off ledge due to the hitstun forcing them into the tornado even on a good shield.
- Keep the IC's underneath after a tornado. Short hop u-air to frame trap and bait the panic d-air. Then relaunch in the air. On Battlefield, it's very good to keep your tornado slightly underneath the lowest platforms. And always, always, always, tornado if IC's are trying to land on a platform making sure to have the tornado rise underneath them.
- Don't do laggy moves on the ground. Just don't do it unless you're extremely positive that you're punishing IC's for a laggy move they made themselves. There should be no reason that you're getting grabbed by falling and doing a laggy move on the ground with MK.
- If you get caught in Blizzard, this can be GOOD. Smash DI INTO the Blizzard and spam d-air. The recovery frames on Blizzard is not good and yes you can literally punish IC's for doing this move. It should almost always force them to split as well.
- When you're gimping Nana and Popo is trying to help BE SMART. Make the player become more cautious when they try to save their Nana by switching the pressure to them randomly. This can alot of the time actually score you a stock rather than just scoring a kill on Nana.
- Respect IC's u-air. D-air camping in this match-up is risky due to their very high priority u-airs. U-airs can also punish d-air on shield. Instead, bait the u-air and intercept with nado to catch them before they land on the ground.
- Grounded up+b works really, really well on IC's. If you're on a platform and you think they're going to try to jump up towards you just up+b and you'll probably hit them on the way up.
- Make sure you always tornado above IC's pivot grab hitbox.
That's about it. The main reason most MK's lose this match is because they either get impatient or they get dumb and do laggy moves. Do not play AFRAID. MK can be at 100% 3rd stock with IC's up 2 stock and still comeback because playing this match-up perfectly means MK won't die. IC's do not have a strong offense against MK at all. So it's only a matter of how well you can open up that IC's defense.
dtilt is -11 on block, they don't need to powershield it to grab it. you need to be EXTREMELY careful with your spacing trying to do anything on the ground vs IC's, honestly I prefer not to do it much at all because they only need to read it once to get a stock unless you're accounting for dash shield at all times, which is far enough away that you can react to them trying to rush in anyway
AfroQT
Smash Master
Pick Snake
Hit buttons
Profit
Much easier then all this other stuff.
Hit buttons
Profit
Much easier then all this other stuff.
AfroQT
Smash Master
Snake is a man shut up.
He doesn't, and even if he did, ICs aren't every character (last time Afro came across an ICs player in tournament, he went Snake).
AfroQT
Smash Master
Because MK beats MK, Pikachu, Falco, D3, Diddy, ZSS, Snake, and every other character much easier then Snake beats them.
Except ICs.
Kaffei
Smash Hero
- Joined
- Feb 8, 2008
- Messages
- 7,048
; -;
disagree on diddy (my tourney record vs diddy players is literally "undefeated with snake, lost to all but one of them with meta knight"...) and IC's but to each his own
I think MK vs IC's is pretty much just a test of your patience though, if you just run they can't really do anything about it
@ Omni
I wouldn´t try to use nado too much.
ICs can DI it and grab your ending lag so it can give you some serious trouble.
Just watch some videos of that japanese IC (9B), he is getting a lof ot his chaingrabs out of tornado.
He can even single CG you at low%, if nana gets kicked away by the tornado and then follow up with a regular chaingrab.
DTilt gets grabbed way to easy.
You can just use it, if your far far away from the ICs, so that you predict their dash startup and try to punish them in it. (they can´t shield in the dash)
I wouldn´t try to use nado too much.
ICs can DI it and grab your ending lag so it can give you some serious trouble.
Just watch some videos of that japanese IC (9B), he is getting a lof ot his chaingrabs out of tornado.
He can even single CG you at low%, if nana gets kicked away by the tornado and then follow up with a regular chaingrab.
DTilt gets grabbed way to easy.
You can just use it, if your far far away from the ICs, so that you predict their dash startup and try to punish them in it. (they can´t shield in the dash)
Budget Player Cadet_
Smash Hero
Hornz does this to me a lot, and I ****ing hate it. I mean seriously, having an infinite on every character isn't gay enough, you also have a long CG on MK WITHOUT nana? FML
2-D Jeff did this to me multiple times when we played in tournament. I would Dsmash or Neutral B poke Nana and Popo would just grab me afterward and CG me until Nana got back, and he did it fast enough that I couldn't break out before the infinite started.@ Omni
I wouldn´t try to use nado too much.
ICs can DI it and grab your ending lag so it can give you some serious trouble.
Just watch some videos of that japanese IC (9B), he is getting a lof ot his chaingrabs out of tornado.
He can even single CG you at low%, if nana gets kicked away by the tornado and then follow up with a regular chaingrab.
DTilt gets grabbed way to easy.
You can just use it, if your far far away from the ICs, so that you predict their dash startup and try to punish them in it. (they can´t shield in the dash)
That's why I think that it's better to just camp platforms at low %.
You can thank me for that haha xD
But yeah this match is definitely in MKs favor.
I play 2DJeffs ICs all the time, we are practically neighbors haha.
Something no one has mentioned, or maybe i just looked over it, but full hop fairs are WAY too good in this MU. Shield pokes like 70% of the time it hits their shield, its ridiculous haha.
After it shield pokes just go nado nana right afterward. But you have to space your fairs so that the ic player can't read it and dash grab before you fh fair them.
Its pretty safe it's not even funny.
Also, FD is actually a good stage to take IC IMO. As long as you space well IC can't do crap to you. No Uairs to worry about from platforms, which is their best move against you. Try it out next time if you space well. It's pretty bad for ICs lol
Trust me. I've had mad experience with it.@ Omni
I wouldn´t try to use nado too much.
ICs can DI it and grab your ending lag so it can give you some serious trouble.
Just watch some videos of that japanese IC (9B), he is getting a lof ot his chaingrabs out of tornado.
He can even single CG you at low%, if nana gets kicked away by the tornado and then follow up with a regular chaingrab.
DTilt gets grabbed way to easy.
You can just use it, if your far far away from the ICs, so that you predict their dash startup and try to punish them in it. (they can´t shield in the dash)
9B's IC's come from FD being a legit neutral stage. If you tornado properly on stages like Smashville and Battlefield there's not much IC's can do.
And at low %'s, yes, Popo can do a single chaingrab to pretty large %'s if its buffered properly. Meep has did this me plenty of times. Which is to say you only really punish Nana hard if you know her % is high and she'll be gone for a while.
D-tilt gets grabbed very easily, but not when it's used sparingly. The only way to grab a d-tilt is to predict it and dash in. By spacing you place d-tilts in a spot where if they choose to dash in you catch them during the dash animation (before they can shield) or while they still have their shield up.
Edit: Lol, I just read the rest of your explanation. Looks exactly like mine. So yes we agree.
Claire Diviner
President
I don't have much IC experience, but I'll put in what I can. I don't know if this has been mentioned, but couldn't we use the back part of our Dair hit box to tack on damage? I can't really see them having an answer to a well-spaced Dair's outermost hitbox. I could be wrong, seeing as I'm just throwing out theories here. I know this has been mentioned, but should you separate the ICs and Nana's vulnerable to a KO, then get rid of her and time out Popo. Granted, he can SD to get Nana, but then they'd be down a stock, leaving us in the lead. I guess so as long as we remain airborne and not directly above the ICs, they cannot grab us or punish us very easily. I could be wrong.
Budget Player Cadet_
Smash Hero
I didn't even bother to watch it to check which video I was looking for. I just saw that it had 9B in it, it was short, and it wasn't on FD. You made a point about FD, and I made a rebuttal toward FD (which still stands).
I'm saying that 9B's success comes from that fact that FD is a neutral stage. When the stagelist only contains 2 stages (FD/BF) then IC's becomes a huge threat to the metagame considering FD is a great stage for IC's. Hence why 9B is such a dominant figure.
Showing a link of 9B winning on BF isn't really a rebuttal.
Showing a link of 9B winning on BF isn't really a rebuttal.
9B: Hes getting hit by the nado, single chaingrabs on the side BF platform, then F/Dthrow? to nana fair, then forces to getup with iceblock, grab -> chaingrab death.
But yeah, not many ICs will pull that of + the fair is escapeable. xD
But yeah, not many ICs will pull that of + the fair is escapeable. xD
No offense, but you don't really seem to understand the Japanese metagame. The biggest indicator is probably that Japan uses FD/BF/SV, not FD/BF. 9B wins tournaments that are closer to American rulesets as well (there's a video of him three stocking one of Japan's top MKs on Delfino as a joke video). 9B is a dominant figure because he's a really good player. This is more of a personal opinion, but I believe that 9B would defeat M2K/Ally, if only because they'd be going from facing players like Swrdgrd/Layne to someone on their level.
Also (this is a much more subjective argument), since when does being a bigger threat on a more "neutral" stage mean that the character is bad? Is Meta Knight bad because Pictochat is a relatively poor choice for him? Maybe ICs is just better than most of the cast and adding in less balanced stages shifts the balance away from them. If the metagame was FD/Picto/PS1 only, Meta Knight would be pretty nerfed when compared to the current metagame.
What? I never said a character is bad when they are a bigger threat on a more neutral stage.
I am suggesting that the stagelist directly influences the viability of the characters in the game. If the stagelist consist of stages where IC's are very good on, then the character itself becomes better. However, if the stagelist consists of stages where IC's can be counterpicked are not so good on then their viability of a character decreases because their adaptability to the stagelist decreases.
I also never said 9B -wasn't- a good player. I am saying that Ice Climbers becomes a more buffed character with the given stagelist.
I don't understand what you're arguing about.
I am suggesting that the stagelist directly influences the viability of the characters in the game. If the stagelist consist of stages where IC's are very good on, then the character itself becomes better. However, if the stagelist consists of stages where IC's can be counterpicked are not so good on then their viability of a character decreases because their adaptability to the stagelist decreases.
I also never said 9B -wasn't- a good player. I am saying that Ice Climbers becomes a more buffed character with the given stagelist.
I don't understand what you're arguing about.
The way that I took your post(s) is that ICs is invalid/not good and that 9B is bad.
Kuro~
Nitoryu Kuro
Sax vs 2D-Jeff
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDJEQ...ure=feedu_more
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDJEQ...ure=feedu_more
2-DJeff
Smash Master
i can pull that off and just to say.
9B is a great player but like some of the mks are saying the netural stages makes ic a big the metagame. and i dont like going FD against mk. its like a gamble because its easier for him to dair camp but at the same time its not as easy for him to escape (but he still can escape)
Sensei Seibrik
Smash Hero
something i recently learned:
platform camping is less effective than just playing NEAR the edge.
that's just me tho IMO
of course if ur losing vs a patient IC's, u may want to platform camp u way in in some way, but if ur winning, camping the side of the stage can make for more quick gimp opportunities to come up
platform camping is less effective than just playing NEAR the edge.
that's just me tho IMO
of course if ur losing vs a patient IC's, u may want to platform camp u way in in some way, but if ur winning, camping the side of the stage can make for more quick gimp opportunities to come up
Toronto Joe
Smash Master
should keep platform cancelling in mind when tornading on a platform
AfroQT
Smash Master
Attack relentlessly and never stop.
Master Raven
Smash Master
Not sure if this has been mentioned but if you get hit by ICs' Fair at very low % they can guarantee a grab follow-up. Gay.
I'm also very wary of tornadoing ICs as a hit-and-run approach. What's up with their pivot grab range? I don't fully understand the mechanics of pivot grabbing vs a tornado. Here's a part of a match that demonstrates this problem: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O64P-Zol6ts&feature=player_detailpage#t=21s
Oh and be very careful when platform camping cuz ICs can platform cancel and grab you right there without warning >_>
I'm also very wary of tornadoing ICs as a hit-and-run approach. What's up with their pivot grab range? I don't fully understand the mechanics of pivot grabbing vs a tornado. Here's a part of a match that demonstrates this problem: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O64P-Zol6ts&feature=player_detailpage#t=21s
Oh and be very careful when platform camping cuz ICs can platform cancel and grab you right there without warning >_>
smash brother
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Mar 18, 2011
- Messages
- 37
my tactic
is a b+up folowed by grab and release till a high% then side smash
is a b+up folowed by grab and release till a high% then side smash
Ic's are one of my mains so maybe I can help, alot of this might be common knowledge but oh well.
if your going to use tornado use it when ics are in the air, their only aerial that beats tornado is dair at the top of the tornado. something my friend does on me is tornados straight at me and baits a pivot grab then catches me in the rest of the tornado. when ic's use squall (side B) to recover if you jump into it then it stops the vertical rise and they fall to their death and you can easily get back to the stage. when they use up B go after popo his second jump is almost always gone when ic's use up B so if you hit him its almost certain death.
Also footstooling absolutly ***** IC's, if ic's use their second jump and you can footstool them theres nothing they can do to get back to the stage.
Also when you kill nana and your at a low percent like under 30% fight popo like you would falco, popo can chain grab you till about 48% then get a Fsmash which ends up being about 60%. I get alot of metaknights with that because they get careless when nana dies.
Hope this helps
if your going to use tornado use it when ics are in the air, their only aerial that beats tornado is dair at the top of the tornado. something my friend does on me is tornados straight at me and baits a pivot grab then catches me in the rest of the tornado. when ic's use squall (side B) to recover if you jump into it then it stops the vertical rise and they fall to their death and you can easily get back to the stage. when they use up B go after popo his second jump is almost always gone when ic's use up B so if you hit him its almost certain death.
Also footstooling absolutly ***** IC's, if ic's use their second jump and you can footstool them theres nothing they can do to get back to the stage.
Also when you kill nana and your at a low percent like under 30% fight popo like you would falco, popo can chain grab you till about 48% then get a Fsmash which ends up being about 60%. I get alot of metaknights with that because they get careless when nana dies.
Hope this helps