Meta Knight Officially Banned!

[DMG]

Uh, Wario's CG on Wolf is MU defining. The MU otherwise would probably be even or 5 points either character. A lot of characters would probably go even or potentially lose with the characters they CG. The biggest examples of "it wouldn't really matter" is basically like Marth vs Ness where even without the infinite his range and grab release advantage is strong enough that the MU is basically still notably Marth's favor. There are few MU's like that, and MU's that are "-2 or -3" with a CG lock infinite etc involved are probably that way because the infinite CG etc is a strong tool.

Like yes rarely would 1 single tool outweight everything else and other considerations. Sure you look at Wolf's range vs Wario and their mobility and etc etc other stuff. But it would also be silly to say that every MU involving a CG lock etc would ALREADY have been won for the character that can do it. Dedede is the biggest exception cause he infinites a lot of bad characters (chances are you would beat Mario regardless of whether your character could infinite him).



CG/Locks/Infinites win MU's. They are not the sole factor of the MU and there are other attributes/things to consider. But if 2 relatively even Matched characters square off while 1 gets a nasty CG, chances are that CG is the reason they win the MU. If one character wins, but now ***** with a CG, chances are the CG is why it's -3 instead of -2 or why the MU is "over the top"

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Im pretty sure DDD beat Bowser, Samus, mario and luigi pretty hard even without the infinite.

Pikachus Cg on falco and wolf is not matchup defining.

If one random lock, chain or move determined matchups, then the ICs would go at least +3 with everybody.

Maybe those with the exception of Luigi would still lose, but it's still more then just a handful of match ups.

Pika's chain grab on the space animals is match up defining.

ICs are different because they require two characters to infinite. Remove the other IC and you remove the infinite.

 

[Chuee]

Also... what weaknesses does MK have? That's what I'm honestly wondering.

You're right MK doesn't have a weaknesses. Not a single one!

 

[Life]

Sakurai didn't want competitions, though.

1. Turn on Brawl
2. Go to Vs Mode
3. Turn Pause Off
4. Read the text at the bottom of the screen:

Spoiler

"Disallow pausing (for tourneys)"

5. ???
6. Profit!

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

1. Turn on Brawl
2. Go to Vs Mode
3. Turn Pause Off
4. Read the text at the bottom of the screen:

Spoiler

"Disallow pausing (for tourneys)"

5. ???
6. Profit!

Except that's not what he actually said. He made Brawl harder to have more competitive tourneys due to his dislike of it. It does not mean he thinks nobody'll ever use it.

Explain tripping then. And the more defensive gameplay(which makes it harder to win). The game has anti-competitive stuff, because Sakurai programmed it that way.

Ultimately, it doesn't matter. Either way, a lot of the game makes it harder for competition, which Sakurai put in that for a reason. Also, one instance of Tourney play isn't a good indicator as he could've meant it strictly for Tourney Mode.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Defensive gameplay doesn't make the game any harder, HyperFalcon.

It just makes it different.

Honestly not trolling you for a change. Just pointing that out there.

What you could say is that because of the way the engine's structured (floatiness, auto-snap ledgegrabs, lack of hitstun, etc.), it's actually less difficult to pick up and play. That sort of homogenization isn't meant to necessarily render the game anti-competitive, but to rather make it so that people (in theory) cannot be inundated to the fundamentals and be completely lost when playing against one another. It's accessibility more than anything else.


Smooth Criminal

 

[Life]

Tripping was added to make the game less competitive (because apparently we're all SHFG's to him). It was not added to make the game uncompetitive, as evidenced by Sakurai (or at least the localization team) allowing a rule to be specifically labeled for tournaments ie. competitive play.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

There is a Tourney Mode. It could only mean for there. No Pause does not mean our regular tournaments by default. Thus, that's not a good example at all, as it's not 100% referring to our kinds of tournaments in any way.

 

[Life]

Tourney Mode would have pause off by default if that were the case. I've never used Brawl's, but I'm pretty sure it just uses whatever Vs. Mode settings you have.

tournaments = competitive play
reference to tournaments = reference to competitive play
Brawl referencing competitive play = devs acknowledging people will play Brawl competitively = devs making Brawl able to be played competitively = tripping indicates Sakurai thought Melee was too serious, not that Brawl should be impossible to be played seriously

And I think EVERYONE hates tripping, including supercasuals, so it's not a good example anyway. What do?

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

The only thing that Sakurai said is that he made Brawl more casual because he doesn't like competitive play.

Pausing does not indicate that. Tourney Mode can just be for a group of friends. It does not follow the way we do it anyway. We play sets, his doesn't.

And not everyone hates tripping, just most. Also Tourney Mode? Bracket play doesn't work well for us anyway, and it's not like it would've been hard figuring out how we play tourneys anyway.

You're honestly assuming too much here. We're the ones making it competitive, not Sakurai. There were no official references.

 

[Life]

Because including the phrase

Spoiler

"for tourneys"

in the game under one of the options is not an official reference to a tournament.

You're worse at this than SMJ.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Tournament Mode. Something in the game.

It does not follow OUR actual tournament settings, therefore, does not count towards OUR definition of competitive. It doesn't count whatsoever.

If he says he didn't like the game being competitive, then that's what he said. That's how it is. He doesn't like it being competitive. There is no special meaning to that. What he put in the game does not contradict his word. Don't put words in his mouth either. He doesn't like it competitive. What part of this wasn't understood exactly when he said it? Oh, wait, none.

 

[Life]

I could argue that the existence of a Tournament Mode itself is an indication that it's okay to take SSB seriously.

I'm arguing less competitive, not uncompetitive. Sakurai made the game less competitive with tripping (Melee fanboys, you're welcome)--but his game code admits that, even though he doesn't like competitive play (tripping, "Real men use items!"), he doesn't actually have a problem with others playing competitively ("for tourneys").

Actions speak louder than words.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

I could argue that the existence of a Tournament Mode itself is an indication that it's okay to take SSB seriously.

I'm arguing less competitive, not uncompetitive. Sakurai made the game less competitive with tripping (Melee fanboys, you're welcome)--but his game code admits that, even though he doesn't like competitive play (tripping, "Real men use items!"), he doesn't actually have a problem with others playing competitively ("for tourneys").

Actions speak louder than words.

Pretty much this.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Doc King]

You're right MK doesn't have a weaknesses. Not a single one!

MK has a few minor weaknesses like air release, air speed, and can get chaingrabbed by certain characters at certain percents.

 

[Chuee]

MK has a few minor weaknesses like air release, air speed, and can get chaingrabbed by certain characters at certain percents.

minor weaknesses are still very much weaknesses.

 

[Flayl]

air speed as a weakness is a little iffy though, because tornado has yoshi-like air speed and his glide is pretty good and it starts up automatically after using up B

i guess you could say his air speed is defensively below average

 

[tekkie]

mk also has a hurtbox, which can be considered a weakness

 

[John12346]

Just for the record, the Pause option, saying "Disallow pausing(for tournies)" thing is very likely referenced to Tournament Mode, because during all Tournament Mode matches, the ability to quit out of the game via LRA+Start during pause is disabled.

Which means Pausing during Tournament Mode is completely meaningless, outside of actually pausing gameplay.

Just a theory.

 

[Judo777]

Cassio you are killing me. You are literally arguing against Rob Mains about Rob's MU's lol. Stingers has backed me up the whole time what are you thinking? Also who cares about high tier MU's top tier MU's are what matter 90% of the time. Pika's worst MU is a high tier, too bad few people play him.

 

[Cassio]

ROB has no -3's except MAYBE MK
he loses to ddd and falco -2
so 0 + 2 = 6? loool smh

I was just going to let it go, but since Judo brought it up 3 pages later...No, Im not arguing with ROB mains, Im citing the MU chart you have referenced to show that rob has 6 fairly bad MUs, and a ROB main is disagreeing. Silly in the first place because I could just as easily eliminate pikas poor MUs if were going to go by testimony instead of the MU chart, and secondly because its not difficult (especially for you) to figure out that Stingers p.o.v. is optimistic among ROB mains.

So yeah, gonna stand by my original point of disagreeing with you that ROB will be seeing significantly greater success from MKs non-existance, and that his spread compares well with peach, high tier, or let alone top tier. Nor do I forsee any other mid-tier heros stepping it up aside from those previously mentioned maybe.

 

[Judo777]

I was just going to let it go, but since Judo brought it up 3 pages later...No, Im not arguing with ROB mains, Im citing the MU chart you have referenced to show that rob has 6 fairly bad MUs, and a ROB main is disagreeing. Silly in the first place because I could just as easily eliminate pikas poor MUs if were going to go by testimony instead of the MU chart, and secondly because its not difficult (especially for you) to figure out that Stingers p.o.v. is optimistic among ROB mains.

So yeah, gonna stand by my original point of disagreeing with you that ROB will be seeing significantly greater success from MKs non-existance, and that his spread compares well with peach, high tier, or let alone top tier. Nor do I forsee any other mid-tier heros stepping it up aside from those previously mentioned maybe.

Yea because Stingers is the person I was referring to right? That's the rob main from my region that I have asked personally on several occaisions right??? Oh wait no that's not the Rob that I know and have asked. I was referring to Eric, who is ALSO apparently very optimistic (according to your definition).

Rob only has 2 -2 in top tier (which isn't bad at all btw, Falco has a -3 and -2 in top tier).

 

[SaveMeJebus]

The R.O.B/ZSS MU seems like a -3 with the infinite.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

You know, that infinite isn't really that hard, I got it down after like 2 hours of practice in training mode once.

The issue is just that it requires constant practice to be good at and ROB isn't a very common character, so like why would you waste 2 hours a week in training mode or whatever to keep an infinite fresh on a character you kind of beat anyway? >_>

 

[Judo777]

The R.O.B/ZSS MU seems like a -3 with the infinite.

ZSS isn't top tier so it doesn't matter that much.

 

[Pachinkosam]

WOW I REALLY FORGOT ABOUT THIS THREAD :fido:

 

[Cassio]

Yea because Stingers is the person I was referring to right? That's the rob main from my region that I have asked personally on several occaisions right??? Oh wait no that's not the Rob that I know and have asked. I was referring to Eric, who is ALSO apparently very optimistic (according to your definition).

Rob only has 2 -2 in top tier (which isn't bad at all btw, Falco has a -3 and -2 in top tier).

lol, no need to get agitated, you specifically said stingers in your last post >_>. Since I dont really care Im gonna let you off the hook unless you keep pushing this. ROB for top tier or w.e

 

[RDT]

I thought the whole "Disallow Pausing (For tourneys)" thing was a photoshopped thing anyway.

 

[Life]

I thought the whole "Disallow Pausing (For tourneys)" thing was a photoshopped thing anyway.

I thought so too. Then I got bored one day, looked at it on my Wii and as it turns out, it's real.

It only takes like two minutes to check...

 

[ElDominio]

I thought so too. Then I got bored one day, looked at it on my Wii and as it turns out, it's real.

It only takes like two minutes to check...

I thought the whole "Disallow Pausing (For tourneys)" thing was a photoshopped thing anyway.

Holy crap... am I that hard to trust???
Here's the original link: http://cl.ly/0G1o3z372e3A3742050a I want to see the counter go up, since I hardlinked to the image instead of giving the URL lol

 

[Life]

Well, considering nobody noticed it for years... kinda like the Master Hand thing in Melee.

 

[ElDominio]

Well, considering nobody noticed it for years... kinda like the Master Hand thing in Melee.

*curious*
What Master Hand thing?????

 

[Life]

There's a glitch with Melee's name box (or something) that allows you to get in without choosing a character, which leads the game to assign you Master Hand. It went undiscovered for seven years.

 

[ElDominio]

there's a glitch with melee's name box (or something) that allows you to get in without choosing a character, which leads the game to assign you master hand. It went undiscovered for seven years.

MUST.
TRY.
OUT.

lolcaps

 

[Chuee]

There's a glitch with Melee's name box (or something) that allows you to get in without choosing a character, which leads the game to assign you Master Hand. It went undiscovered for seven years.

I got this to work with one of my friends awhile back.

 

[Karnu]

He isent banned in Aus tourneys UMAD Americans?

 

[Life]

75% of us aren't mad...

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Can anyone in Australia place top 50 with MK? No? Then we probably don't care.

 

[Flayl]

glass house

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

troll post was troll post