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Meta Knight Officially Banned!

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Verde Coeden Scalesworth

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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Or you could've gave the data as I asked. But I won't pester you for it any longer, Jebus.

I really can't wait to see the results myself. Should be interesting.
 
SaveMeJebus

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HyperFalcon said:
Or you could've gave the data as I asked. But I won't pester you for it any longer, Jebus.

I really can't wait to see the results myself. Should be interesting.
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What's the point? It's not going to change anything. I would rather sit back and watch as they **** up this game even more.
 
Verde Coeden Scalesworth

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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SaveMeJebus said:
What's the point? It's not going to change anything. I would rather sit back and watch as they **** up this game even more.
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I said I was not going to pester you about it anymore. You know, because I'm trying to be nice here.

Calm down, seriously. No need to be negative.
 
Verde Coeden Scalesworth

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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Oh, okay. I was confused by what you meant. As I said, it's going to be interesting. Sorry for the confusion, man.
 
Ghostbone

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Savants are amazing.
Like that person that can tell you what the weather was for any date (that they were alive obviously).
So awesome.
 
WindMajor

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Wait did BPC seriously just become pro-ban?
And is Jebus truly looking forward to the pro-ban's progress?

HOLY ****.
 
Marc

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HyperFalcon said:
Just because a character is played more doesn't guarantee a win. Let me put it this way: Let's say in every tournament, 1 person played MK, and the rest played Ganondorf. How often is Ganondorf going to win? Rarely. Percentage used has nothing to do with Percentage winned. They are not the same, and while possibly somewhat related, they are not dependent on eachother whatsoever.
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More people playing a character means more outlier performances. Ganondorf isn't magically going to win APEX if a lot of people play him, but you will find that he already performs significantly better than his tier placement of dead last would warrant. This either means Ganondorf is a lot better than what he's given credit for or that his metagame is pushed harder due to popularity and character champions. Considering how universally agreed it is that he is really the bottom of the barrel, I'd say the latter is more likely. For top tier characters it holds true that the amount of top performances you will see are somewhat proportional to the amount of people playing said character. There is a reason Falco is overall the Melee character with by far the most/best top performances, and it's not that he's the best character in the game.

Judo777 said:
Olimar is a high tier character despite the fact that he gets wrecked by Falco, Wario is a top tier despite the fact that he loses handily to Marth. Pikachu is high tier even tho he has some rougher MU's with characters like Diddy Kong. Conversely Rob, a character who has good MU's with ALL of top tier except MK (who he gets wrecked by) is bumped all the way down in mid tier, why? Because MK is all that matters. Same goes for TL.
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Eh? R.O.B. loses to most top tiers and gets wrecked by Dedede. He has a few evenish matchups there, but that's really it. Toon Link is one of few characters with a shot at better viability with MK gone, but his matchup with him isn't even that awful and it doesn't make all his other top tier matchups less uphill. Not playing a MK every round doesn't mean everything else is suddenly winnable for mid/high tiers.
 
Verde Coeden Scalesworth

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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Marc said:
More people playing a character means more outlier performances. Ganondorf isn't magically going to win APEX if a lot of people play him, but you will find that he already performs significantly better than his tier placement of dead last would warrant. This either means Ganondorf is a lot better than what he's given credit for or that his metagame is pushed harder due to popularity and character champions. Considering how universally agreed it is that he is really the bottom of the barrel, I'd say the latter is more likely. For top tier characters it holds true that the amount of top performances you will see are somewhat proportional to the amount of people playing said character. There is a reason Falco is overall the Melee character with by far the most/best top performances, and it's not that he's the best character in the game.
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They are not mutually exclusive. The best and worst character are still the best and worst character. It can help, but it still isn't proof of anything. This is why I originally wanted the data, to show that the claim is entirely true. Ganondorf was never better in Brawl. He's still an awful character, and at most might slightly change his places among the Hyrule Tier. Top Tier characters are better because they actually are better. They have the best tools compared to the lower ones. It's more than just wins. It's frame data as well(and other such things). In fact, without all that, the chances of them winning are lowered considerably.

It's not just who plays them the most. A consistent win with a bad character is never going to be higher than a consistent win with a broken character, for instance. This is because it's not JUST the players. The characters are key too. Too many people fret on the players, but forget that the characters are important to how the tier list works. Character balance is about how they were created. We know there is a best and worst in every game(as long as there's more than one character). That's just how it works. Once every character is fleshed out to their maximum potential, there will always be some characters that are still better.

Also, Melee is more balanced anyway. Albeit, not much better.
 
Judo777

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Marc said:
More people playing a character means more outlier performances. Ganondorf isn't magically going to win APEX if a lot of people play him, but you will find that he already performs significantly better than his tier placement of dead last would warrant. This either means Ganondorf is a lot better than what he's given credit for or that his metagame is pushed harder due to popularity and character champions. Considering how universally agreed it is that he is really the bottom of the barrel, I'd say the latter is more likely. For top tier characters it holds true that the amount of top performances you will see are somewhat proportional to the amount of people playing said character. There is a reason Falco is overall the Melee character with by far the most/best top performances, and it's not that he's the best character in the game.



Eh? R.O.B. loses to most top tiers and gets wrecked by Dedede. He has a few evenish matchups there, but that's really it. Toon Link is one of few characters with a shot at better viability with MK gone, but his matchup with him isn't even that awful and it doesn't make all his other top tier matchups less uphill. Not playing a MK every round doesn't mean everything else is suddenly winnable for mid/high tiers.
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Rob is believed to have a possibly even MU with Snake (although the MU chart says he loses Rob's I have talked to think it might even be in their favor but w/e its close to even), goes even with Marth, IC's, Diddy, and only slightly loses to Wario and Pika. Falco is the only person that gives Rob a hard time in top tier with MK gone and its a -2. No one plays D3 and while there might be slightly more D3's I doubt we will see a ton because D3 stills gets ***** by half of top tier. Also D3 isn't top tier.

Rob has always had really good MU's in top tier, but a -3 against MK means he can't be viable.


On a funny side note David Guetta made a tribute to MK being banned.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZBZ84Za_5s
:troll:
 
stingers

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Marc said:
Eh? R.O.B. loses to most top tiers and gets wrecked by Dedede. He has a few evenish matchups there, but that's really it.
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what? no...
he only really loses badly to falco and ddd
snake/olimar/pika/wario are all managable
and the rest are even =/
 
Ghostbone

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Marc said:
There is a reason Falco is overall the Melee character with by far the most/best top performances, and it's not that he's the best character in the game.
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He pretty much is, Fox is "too hard" to play over a whole tournament, and even game by game, Falco could edge out over Fox as #1.
 
Marc

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Judo777 said:
Rob is believed to have a possibly even MU with Snake (although the MU chart says he loses Rob's I have talked to think it might even be in their favor but w/e its close to even), goes even with Marth, IC's, Diddy, and only slightly loses to Wario and Pika. Falco is the only person that gives Rob a hard time in top tier with MK gone and its a -2. No one plays D3 and while there might be slightly more D3's I doubt we will see a ton because D3 stills gets ***** by half of top tier. Also D3 isn't top tier.

Rob has always had really good MU's in top tier, but a -3 against MK means he can't be viable.
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He's currently -2 against Falco and Olimar (as well as ZSS and Fox), is -1 with seven high/top tier characters and then also has Dedede to worry about. Supposedly even matchups with Diddy, Marth and IC are nice to have, but in most scenarios he'll still be fighting (significantly) uphill. In my book that's not viable, not without secondaries. Dedede is also probably the easiest pocket secondary to have and would be considered more if characters like R.O.B. actually were to be more dominant. My point is, as long as you have bad matchups with characters that aren't obscure, they will be a problem. I'm not sure if the new matchup chart makes his spread a little better, but I can't imagine that characters like Falco and Olimar are suddenly not a problem (if you want to stick to top tiers), especially with them benefiting from MK gone too. People seem to think that with one less -3 matchup or with no MK to worry about a character suddenly makes jumps in viability, but a character with even just several common -2 matchups is probably never getting first.

Perhaps my definition of tournament viable limits itself to being able to get top placings, but if I'm not assuming people are wanting that for themselves and their character, most discussions about viability are moot.
 
Judo777

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Marc said:
He's currently -2 against Falco and Olimar (as well as ZSS and Fox), is -1 with seven high/top tier characters and then also has Dedede to worry about. Supposedly even matchups with Diddy, Marth and IC are nice to have, but in most scenarios he'll still be fighting (significantly) uphill. In my book that's not viable, not without secondaries. Dedede is also probably the easiest pocket secondary to have and would be considered more if characters like R.O.B. actually were to be more dominant. My point is, as long as you have bad matchups with characters that aren't obscure, they will be a problem. I'm not sure if the new matchup chart makes his spread a little better, but I can't imagine that characters like Falco and Olimar are suddenly not a problem (if you want to stick to top tiers), especially with them benefiting from MK gone too. People seem to think that with one less -3 matchup or with no MK to worry about a character suddenly makes jumps in viability, but a character with even just several common -2 matchups is probably never getting first.

Perhaps my definition of tournament viable limits itself to being able to get top placings, but if I'm not assuming people are wanting that for themselves and their character, most discussions about viability are moot.
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Um one less -3 IS a big jump??? Like that is a MU most people can't cope with. Did you see stingers post? Even with Snake, Diddy, IC's, Marth, -1 with Pika, Wario, -2 Falco Olimar (forget Olimar is top tier). That's pretty spectacular, and I don't even think anyone in high tier has a better spread (except maybe Tink who everyone thinks will get a big boost, and Zss).

Also why does ANYONE think Olimar will get a boost from MK being gone? Olimar has a good MK MU already, you know who he doesn't have good MU's with? Falco, Marth and IC's........ who will almost certainly see more use now.

And yes D3 is a (relatively easy) pocket character, and that's what secondaries are for. I'm sorry but very rarely will anyone below top tier (and even some in top tier) not need a secondary, its a competative fighter you need secondaries.
 
da K.I.D.

da K.I.D.

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you know that she can chain down smashes on fox from 0-like 130 right?

And you know that fox still pretty much wins that matchup right?

im bringing this up, because one goofy random lock does not always decide a matchup. there are other factors beside 'i hit you with this move and i win. +3 matchup'

and if it did pikachu fox would be unwinnable, and its clearly not.
 
SaveMeJebus

SaveMeJebus

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da K.I.D. said:
you know that she can chain down smashes on fox from 0-like 130 right?

And you know that fox still pretty much wins that matchup right?

im bringing this up, because one goofy random lock does not always decide a matchup. there are other factors beside 'i hit you with this move and i win. +3 matchup'

and if it did pikachu fox would be unwinnable, and its clearly not.
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That stops working after a certain percentage against Fox and that match up is even. Also, Pikachu vs. Fox is -3 for Fox which is what I said the R.O.B/ZSS match up should be (unless there's something I don't know about)
 
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