Melee Match-Up Chart (NTSC) [Update 008 - 09.09.28]

[x After Dawn x]

unknown522 posting:

Will post something later. At smashfest atm.

After Dawn, do you know lemonlau? He's at this fest. Beeble didn't come though

Haha, yeah! I know Lemonlau in real life. I used to know Beeble in real life as well, but he moved to Toronto a little less than a year ago.

 

[unknown522]

Yeah Beeble takes music here. He came to 2 smash fests but then we never saw him again. lemon is still here though. He's sleeping over at Idea's place. Lemon says your name is Tyler. lol.

You guys may laugh at me


but Falcon doesn't have a 95-5 advantage to Kirby

more like 70-30 or 65-35

Kirby has shiek-like tilts (in stopping a good number of falcon's aerials), decent gimps, can duck falcon's grabs like a *****

of course its still largely falcon's favor but 95-5 is ridiculous (same for a good chunk of this chart)

Edit: Where the hell is kirby getting 30 / 35 points from? He can't do jack **** to falcon. Unlike jigglypuff, he can actually get combo'd hard by falcon. His recovery sucks ***. He has no speed or air mobility. He has priority on like 2 moves, but one means you have to be in the air and the other makes you a sitting duck. Kirby can only edgeguard falcon, but if he can't get him off the stage, then what does it matter?

Edit 2: I didn't laugh at you, but I was confused as hell.

 

[Strong Badam]

Lmfao I love you strong bad. Your posts made me LOL pretty hard.

is that a good thing
or a bad thing
<3 victra

and zelda vs. sheik should be even, 'cos zelda has this really badass down-b move that makes her go ssj4.

(still working on that dk match-up write-up)

 

[unknown522]

cool, good work.

 

[x After Dawn x]

Yeah Beeble takes music here. He came to 2 smash fests but then we never saw him again. lemon is still here though. He's sleeping over at Idea's place. Lemon says your name is Tyler. lol.

Yup. You guys should play Beeble more, his Jigglypuff has godlike DI.

and zelda vs. sheik should be even, 'cos zelda has this really badass down-b move that makes her go ssj4.

lol true

 

[unknown522]

^ His jiggs is not bad. Usually 2-3 stock for me. His ganon is lol though, all 4 stock.

Those were a while ago though. He said that he was mostly focusing on school, so he hasn't come out to stuff much.

Edit: his DI is good sometimes, but randomly he has bad moments: He died from europhoria's F-throw -> tipper from 0 on yoshi's twice that day. We kept laughing about it during the day.

 

[x After Dawn x]

^ His jiggs is not bad. Usually 2-3 stock for me. His ganon is lol though, all 4 stock.

Those were a while ago though. He said that he was mostly focusing on school, so he hasn't come out to stuff much.

Edit: his DI is good sometimes, but randomly he has bad moments: He died from europhoria's F-throw -> tipper from 0 on yoshi's twice that day. We kept laughing about it during the day.

Ganon...? Really? I never knew he played Ganon, maybe he picked him up while playing with you guys at Toronto or something? I've only seen him play Jiggs and Yoshi.

I've never seen his DI choke, but try vs'ing his Jiggs on Dream Land lol...he just won't die.

 

[Europhoria]

Lololol. Whoever said Fox can outcamp Falco should go play Lambchops with this strategy and try it.

 

[Afro_Chris]

Unlike jigglypuff, he can actually get combo'd hard by falcon. .

r u telling me that falcon cant combo jiggs? grab to down throw works from 0% to 130% ish and it allways hits not matter wat d.i u just gotta no how to read them,
(ryan i swore u were at my house when i was trying this) but not like jiggs should live to 130% or higher anyways,

and at 0% u can knee > grab > down throw > knee >

(if they d.i down) grab > down throw > knee
(if they d.i up ) > up air > (if they have super messed d.i) knee? but dont think there enough stun on the up air
(if they d.i towards) >knee > knee ? (if ur man enough go for the triple knee, the jiggs needs super d.i tho)

then u can just camp for grabs and repeat the down throw knee, yes i no its the gayest thing to do and should never be done in friendlies cuz it boreding as **** and pisses off the other player,

but u do wat u gotta do to win right? in tourny i mean dont be a ****er and camp in friendlies

 

[Divinokage]

Lololol. Whoever said Fox can outcamp Falco should go play Lambchops with this strategy and try it.

Play Jman or stfu. =) He rapppesss Falcos all day.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Play Jman or stfu. =) He rapppesss Falcos all day.

jman doesn't out camp falcos, he simply ***** them. thanks for playing though.

 

[unknown522]

Ganon...? Really? I never knew he played Ganon, maybe he picked him up while playing with you guys at Toronto or something? I've only seen him play Jiggs and Yoshi.

I've never seen his DI choke, but try vs'ing his Jiggs on Dream Land lol...he just won't die.

True, he lives on dream land for a long *** time. Also, wow yoshi.

r u telling me that falcon cant combo jiggs? grab to down throw works from 0% to 130% ish and it allways hits not matter wat d.i u just gotta no how to read them,
(ryan i swore u were at my house when i was trying this) but not like jiggs should live to 130% or higher anyways,

and at 0% u can knee > grab > down throw > knee >

(if they d.i down) grab > down throw > knee
(if they d.i up ) > up air > (if they have super messed d.i) knee? but dont think there enough stun on the up air
(if they d.i towards) >knee > knee ? (if ur man enough go for the triple knee, the jiggs needs super d.i tho)

then u can just camp for grabs and repeat the down throw knee, yes i no its the gayest thing to do and should never be done in friendlies cuz it boreding as **** and pisses off the other player,

but u do wat u gotta do to win right? in tourny i mean dont be a ****er and camp in friendlies

When I said can't be combo'd hard, I mean like can't do 3+ hits. Falcon can do Downthrow -> 2 u-airs, or a knee.

Play Jman or stfu. =) He rapppesss Falcos all day.

Jman doesn't camp falco much. He spams n-air -> shine and tries to gimp a lot.

 

[Alphicans]

I thought there was a time where kirby was thought to have a so-so m/u against sheik. This m/u chart shows 100-0 in sheiks favor. Am I misinformed or did sheiks find some way to just absolutely **** kirby?

 

[unknown522]

Lol, phanna chart had 6-4 for sheik vs kirby.

good times.

kirby sucks.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

i think it all started from some thread in the sheik or kirby boards about how kirby counters sheik. i've actually never seen any actual evidence to support it, but then again i never looked for it.

 

[Divinokage]

jman doesn't out camp falcos, he simply ***** them. thanks for playing though.

Where did I say he out camps them? ...

 

[Alphicans]

Well I mean if some people believed that kirby could somehow counter sheik, I just don't see 100-0 for sheik possible. There actually a lot of match-ups on this chart that seem wack. Like y.link vs jiggs. Personally I think that match-up is very even or possibly a slight advantage for y.link.

 

[unknown522]

Well I mean if some people believed that kirby could somehow counter sheik, I just don't see 100-0 for sheik possible. There actually a lot of match-ups on this chart that seem wack. Like y.link vs jiggs. Personally I think that match-up is very even or possibly a slight advantage for y.link.

Care to explain why?

For the kirby v sheik thing, they decided that being able to crouch under characters' grab was worth 40 points in a matchup. In reality, kirby can't do jack **** to sheik. His highest priority moves lose to sheik. She is much faster than him. He can't get through her camping. Edgeguarding is easy for both characters, but kirby won't have much of a chance getting sheik off the stage. He can swallow-cide her, but he's giving up his own stock to do so. Kirby is way too slow to keep up with sheik and doesn't have an anti-camp game. He also gets combo'd by sheik decently too. That matchup is definitely 8-2 at best, but probably 9-1. I guess we shouldn't have 10-0s in the chart.

also: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=92025

Apparently roy does better vs kirby than ganon / DK / Sheik / Link / Luigi do.

The old chart is not bad, but it has a lot of randomly whack matchups in the high / mid tiers and the seem like they weren't researched at all. Not saying that ours is too much better, but we're working on it.

 

[Aesir]

He can swallow-cide her, but he's giving up his own stock to do so.

Unless I'm mistaken Sheiks hit box is bigger than Kirbys thus sheik will die before Kirby will, once sheik dies Kirby gets all of his jumps back and can make it safely back to the stage.

 

[unknown522]

That is true

 

[Rannskita]

Where did I say he out camps them? ...

well you were responding to the post "Lololol. Whoever said Fox can outcamp Falco should go play Lambchops with this strategy and try it." which is kind of specificlly talking about how falcos can outcamp foxes...

that mightve been the reason why sveet said jman doesn't out camp falcos, he simply ***** them.


Also in the kirby convo, you have 3 frames (fairly good) to suicide cancel a sheik

 

[Blatt Blvd]

yay, the canadian melee match up discussion.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Kirby vs Sheik is hard D:

Her D-smash is so good.

 

[Skler]

But Kirby can crouch grabs! Sheik without CGs is so bottom tier.

Why hasn't Kirby vs Marth been changed to be in Kirby's favor? I already explained the matchup.

 

[Strong Badam]

kirby counters sheik!!!!!1111oneoneoneshift+one

 

[Fletch]

I thought it had something to do with this craptastic match of Ken's horrible Sheik versus Isai's Kirby.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8cRBS-kDUzw

I thought once people saw that they thought Kirby had a chance against Sheik.

 

[idea]

i sincerely hope that perceptions of that matchup weren't changed by some blurry friendly which was considered old even before i started playing this game.

 

[x After Dawn x]

Chu Dat's Kirby almost beat somebody's Sheik on EC about a month back in a tournament match.

 

[Pi]

I think phanna created his chart pretty much by gathering X amount of people around the same skill level and having them play matches of each character lol, 10 matches

 

[Strong Badam]

I don't think so.

 

[x After Dawn x]

Nah, he didn't do that.

 

[otg]

Yo guys, Kirby is uber ****ing broken. His priority is retardedly good, his aerials are retardedly good, that Fsmash is retardedly good, his freaking dair spike is easy as **** to land and of course it's retardedly good, and for the love of GOD he can steal people's B MOVES.

Retardedly good.

 

[Rubyiris]

r u telling me that falcon cant combo jiggs? grab to down throw works from 0% to 130% ish and it allways hits not matter wat d.i u just gotta no how to read them,
(ryan i swore u were at my house when i was trying this) but not like jiggs should live to 130% or higher anyways,

and at 0% u can knee > grab > down throw > knee >

(if they d.i down) grab > down throw > knee
(if they d.i up ) > up air > (if they have super messed d.i) knee? but dont think there enough stun on the up air
(if they d.i towards) >knee > knee ? (if ur man enough go for the triple knee, the jiggs needs super d.i tho)

then u can just camp for grabs and repeat the down throw knee, yes i no its the gayest thing to do and should never be done in friendlies cuz it boreding as **** and pisses off the other player,

but u do wat u gotta do to win right? in tourny i mean dont be a ****er and camp in friendlies

There's no reason NOT to camp in friendlies.

 

[Strong Badam]

there's always the possibility of people not wanting to play friendlies w/ you because you camp
i CG in friendlies but that's about it. it's what they get for fox ditto-ing me >_>

 

[idea]

camping in friendlies is generally irritating. i think most people distinguish between "serious" friendlies and "let's falcon ditto" friendlies. the latter involves approaching most of the time. not everyone sees the game this way but it seems like a lot of people do.

 

[Blatt Blvd]

people who complain about camping are just mad because they have to play counter camp.

which means they're just whinny little babies who need to play another game.

 

[Zone]

I'd like to comment on Zelda vs Samus. I think Zelda has the upper hand in this particular match up. Considering one of Samus' safest if not only approach next to maybe f-tilt on zelda is jab. Samus' moves on zelda's shield are laggy enough to garantee a foot almost everytime. Powersheilding missles and swatting them are not that hard. One of the few matches where din's fire has some legit uses for edgeguarding. Samus much like Zelda have a really crappy grab so, Samus is somewhat on the same field as Zelda is when it comes to grabbing your opponent so shield pressure is one of samus more chosen choices. And doing things out of shield is what Zelda does best.

Now I don't think Zelda completely ***** Samus. But I don't believe it's that much in Samus' favor.

This is just my personal experience. I've wanted to MM so many different samus' but I always get turned down unless I offer my Marth or something.

 

[Pi]

Zone I'll MM your zelda,
If I'm not mistaken and you're going to FL gaming that is

 

[lordvaati]

Yo guys, Kirby is uber ****ing broken. His priority is retardedly good, his aerials are retardedly good, that Fsmash is retardedly good, his freaking dair spike is easy as **** to land and of course it's retardedly good, and for the love of GOD he can steal people's B MOVES.

Retardedly good.

I miss 64 Kirby

The only Pro Melee Kirby has over the original is that he can Kirbycide easier.

 

[idea]

people who complain about camping are just mad because they have to play counter camp.

which means they're just whinny little babies who need to play another game.

yeah, and counter camping is generally irritating. you seem to be agreeing with me, but being judgemental about it =P

it's not really..."friendly" if you're winning at all costs and such. but if personal improvement is both players' priority then yeah, camp away, if that's what you'd do in tournament.

I miss 64 Kirby

The only Pro Melee Kirby has over the original is that he can Kirbycide easier.

better taunt.