Melee Match-Up Chart (NTSC) [Update 008 - 09.09.28]

[ETWIST51294]

That and Mango's Falco is probably the best in the world, not just top 5. Only one I'm imagining that would come close is Shiz.

And Zhu and Pc. I think if PC still played falco he would be better. I watched a match in Feb. and he was playing Falco and I think he two stock M2K's Marth. But that just imo.

 

[Blatt Blvd]

so many opinions.

i hate them all!!!

time for the holocaust V 2.0

 

[pockyD]

pockyD: I haven't seen anyone in this topic state that CJ (does that guy even play anymore?) or Amsah's Sheiks were better than M2K's.

i misremembered

Mango's Sheik, not the best but still really good, easily top 5 in the nation (out of nation though, CJ's and Amsah's are better).

still, the point stands that it's pretty doubtful anyone has a good handle both on how good mango's sheik is and that of CJ/amsah

 

[Divinokage]

Blatt, you'll never understand if you are not at the top, you noob. =P

 

[x After Dawn x]

i'm not saying anything about mango; in fact, i've tried my hardest to give no opinions at all in this thread, since i feel like i don't know enough about anything to contribute (and i believe 99% of smashers don't know enough to contribute, which was my point waaaay back at the start)

i just want to know on what basis you think captain jack or amsah's sheik is good/not good, and especially why they are likely better than mew2king

I never said they were better than M2K's Sheik, I said they were better than Mango's Sheik. I think it's already been established that Armada plays a high level style of Peach that seems to "outdo" other Peaches because of his decisions, etc. That being said, I've seen CJ beat Armada's Peach and Mango's Sheik lose to Pink Shinobi.

 

[pockyD]

oh you mean CJ vs Armada from a year and a half ago? comparing it to mango vs. pink shinobi from 8 months ago? (a set that mango won btw)

and taking observations from a single matchup in two games that aren't even the and generalizing that to the overall abilities with that character?

 

[Divinokage]

Edit: I'm only talking from my own experience, if you don't like it then you can stfu, I don't really care.

 

[ETWIST51294]

I never said they were better than M2K's Sheik, I said they were better than Mango's Sheik. I think it's already been established that Armada plays a high level style of Peach that seems to "outdo" other Peaches because of his decisions, etc. That being said, I've seen CJ beat Armada's Peach and Mango's Sheik lose to Pink Shinobi.

I just watched that CJ vs Armada match. 0_0 It was amazing. I didn't even know CJ still played.

 

[x After Dawn x]

oh you mean CJ vs Armada from a year and a half ago? comparing it to mango vs. pink shinobi from 8 months ago? (a set that mango won btw)

and taking observations from a single matchup in two games that aren't even the and generalizing that to the overall abilities with that character?

I'm saying, look at the way CJ plays and Mango plays. Obviously, nothing is certain until the two play, and videos don't always provide an accurate insight on the skill of a player to their full extent, but more or less CJ is a veteran who's had experience facing players across the world for years now. CJ has a good Sheik because he's an intelligent smasher who has experience playing in all matchups, whereas Mango's Sheik is good not because he uses Sheik a lot in tournaments, but more of the fact that he's able to play every character. I'm sure Mango's Sheik could get a lot better if he mained Sheik and played her seriously, but ad far as I know, that isn't the case.

 

[Strong Badam]

wtf
why are you guys arguing about the top 5 of x
you guys should be arguing about character match-ups

GET TO IT

 

[idea]

so guys, what are the top 5 character matchups?

1. mango
2. armada
3. m2k
4. captain jack
5. captain hook

 

[x After Dawn x]

Mmkay, can somebody explain why Falco is 55-45 with Fox? The match almost seems to be 50-50. Fox has an amazing cg on Falco that works until 55 % if they don't DI and around 80 % if they do. After that, you can easily upsmash into uair, or go straight into uair, etc. Fox can also grab to uair or, at non-high percents, grab to upsmash. He can reflect Falco's lasers ocasionally (see M2K vs Mango in crews at Genesis), but he's also fast enough to evade them. In addition, he can shine spike Falco easier than any other char in the game if Falco uses up B (honestly it's like a free kill...), or if Falco phantasms to recover, Fox can punish by grab > anything (bair, for example) or he can upsmash.

Is it 55-45 because Falco falls over from a shine? Honestly, a good Fox has so many options to choose from in this matchup, but I think I can see how it could be 55-45.

 

[Signia]

Fox has an amazing cg on Falco that works until 55 % if they don't DI and around 80 % if they do.

Am I reading that correctly? Falco gets chaingrabbed longer if he DOES DI?

 

[x After Dawn x]

Am I reading that correctly? Falco gets chaingrabbed longer if he DOES DI?

Yup, it sounds wrong but it's right, you can even look it up.

P.S. I don't know the EXACT % Falco breaks out but I believe it's between 75-80 %.

 

[idea]

if he doesn't DI he can shine out of it faster. same goes for fox generally. never 100% made sense to me either =P

all i'll say about the fox-falco matchup is that i'd rather play falco against someone's fox than my fox against someone's falco. feels more comfortable that way.

 

[x After Dawn x]

I think I feel the same way, Falco feels more solid than Fox in the matchup but Fox can surprisingly combo him easily, as well as gimp him easily (then again, the same thing applies for Falco).

 

[Strong Badam]

i **** falcos w/ my fox

and yeah u can PC chris DI -> shine at like 55%... pivot grab might still work though. the match-up should be 50-50

also Fox can shine Falco out of any of his recovery options (even forward-b). Falco's shine combos don't work w/ proper DI either.

 

[pockyD]

um, almost every chain grab lasts longer if they do DI, because they are sacrificing height (which is generally the factor that gets them out of the CG) for horizontal distance

 

[ArcNatural]

Mmkay, can somebody explain why Falco is 55-45 with Fox? The match almost seems to be 50-50. Fox has an amazing cg on Falco that works until 55 % if they don't DI and around 80 % if they do. After that, you can easily upsmash into uair, or go straight into uair, etc. Fox can also grab to uair or, at non-high percents, grab to upsmash. He can reflect Falco's lasers ocasionally (see M2K vs Mango in crews at Genesis), but he's also fast enough to evade them. In addition, he can shine spike Falco easier than any other char in the game if Falco uses up B (honestly it's like a free kill...), or if Falco phantasms to recover, Fox can punish by grab > anything (bair, for example) or he can upsmash.

Is it 55-45 because Falco falls over from a shine? Honestly, a good Fox has so many options to choose from in this matchup, but I think I can see how it could be 55-45.

CG only works purely on FD which is in Fox's advantage. Every other stage it isn't as certain whereas platforms extend Falcos combos much better while giving Fox a bit more mobility. But Falco generally holds a slight advantage everywhere but FD. Not counting counterpicks but even then he holds a slight advantage on most of the other stages.

 

[x After Dawn x]

i **** falcos w/ my fox

and yeah u can PC chris DI -> shine at like 55%... pivot grab might still work though. the match-up should be 50-50

also Fox can shine Falco out of any of his recovery options (even forward-b). Falco's shine combos don't work w/ proper DI either.

I believe 55 % is when the Falco can shine or jump out no matter what Fox does. Falco's shine combos certainly get worse when they DI but it's still good, and it generally works better if you waveshine instead of just shine > full hop dair.

CG only works purely on FD which is in Fox's advantage. Every other stage it isn't as certain whereas platforms extend Falcos combos much better while giving Fox a bit more mobility. But Falco generally holds a slight advantage everywhere but FD. Not counting counterpicks but even then he holds a slight advantage on most of the other stages.

I suppose so, but unless you're on Yoshi's Story, you can still get some damage in while they DI to a platform / off a platform, but then we can remember that Fox ***** Falco in plenty of other ways on that stage. Overall, I believe Falco does have the advantage in stage neutrals, and then it's even better for Falco when you go into counterpicks (Jungle Japes, Kongo Jungle 64).

But didn't the thread creator say this chart is based off the assumption that your opponent has good knowledge of the matchup and stages don't affect the matchup? If so, I think it's an even matchup.

 

[Fletch]

And Zhu and Pc. I think if PC still played falco he would be better. I watched a match in Feb. and he was playing Falco and I think he two stock M2K's Marth. But that just imo.

Zhu has admitted that Mango's Falco is on a whole different level than his, and PC doesn't play Falco now, so I don't get what you're getting at.

Mmkay, can somebody explain why Falco is 55-45 with Fox? The match almost seems to be 50-50. Fox has an amazing cg on Falco that works until 55 % if they don't DI and around 80 % if they do. After that, you can easily upsmash into uair, or go straight into uair, etc. Fox can also grab to uair or, at non-high percents, grab to upsmash. He can reflect Falco's lasers ocasionally (see M2K vs Mango in crews at Genesis), but he's also fast enough to evade them. In addition, he can shine spike Falco easier than any other char in the game if Falco uses up B (honestly it's like a free kill...), or if Falco phantasms to recover, Fox can punish by grab > anything (bair, for example) or he can upsmash.

Is it 55-45 because Falco falls over from a shine? Honestly, a good Fox has so many options to choose from in this matchup, but I think I can see how it could be 55-45.

Falco bans FD, and every neutral is pretty much in his favor/even at worst. I play both characters now, and from even though I'm much worse with Falco, I have to go with Idea that I'd rather take Falco versus a Fox than Fox versus a Falco. Falco just has an easier time with shine combos than Fox does (Fox still does really well with combos, just not as great as Falco), and can use his superior laser to create more openings. It's a slight advantage, but definitely a little bit in Falco's favor.

 

[worldjem7]

Stages do affect the match-up but, only the Neutral Stages are being counted for the main chart.

Counter-pick stages will be elaborated later after the chart is more solid.

 

[x After Dawn x]

Well, if that's true, then I do suppose Falco has a slight advantage, although I would see it more of a smaller advantage than 10 %. You could always do what the Brawl boards are doing and giving 2.5 increments instead of 5, though I guess it's too difficult to analyze at such small increments as there are no individuals that are exactly equal in skill that we could analyze data from, and then it would just all become theory.

*head hurts*

 

[Strong Badam]

Stages do affect the match-up but, only the Neutral Stages are being counted for the main chart.

Counter-pick stages will be elaborated later after the chart is more solid.

lame....
corneria/pokefloats will make Fox's match-ups even more ****.
imo at high levels fox vs. falco is even. you just can't get past Fox's shinespikes, and Falco's shine combos are actually escapeable with proper DI.

 

[x After Dawn x]

lame....
corneria/pokefloats will make Fox's match-ups even more ****.

Corneria is a good stage for Fox but it's also good for Falco, though I think Fox has a slight advantage on it still.

Poke Floats, I don't know lol, I don't have much knowledge about it but can't Falco just laser camp all day on it?

Also Jungle Japes and Kongo Jungle 64 are in favor for Falco so it's still probably a slight advantage for Falco. Fox performs well on Green Greens because of low ceiling / laser camping but Falco can laser camp too, plus there are platforms to help Falco combo and it messes up Fox's cg because they're so low, so I'd say it's even on that stage.

 

[Strong Badam]

i wasn't talking specifically in the fox falco matchup.

buuut Corneria favors Fox a lot. his CG is still relatively effective (see: m2k vs. mango crews), he can laser camp a lot, and it being the (horizontally) largest non-moving legal stage, help Fox in a lot of ways. he survives Falco's main KO moves (bair & fsmash) at higher percentages and the low ceiling (as well as the fin) helps Fox's upsmash and upair KO.

 

[x After Dawn x]

Fox benefits from being able to laser camp on the left side, being able to combo well against the fin, having a cg against Falco, living well horizontally, and being able to kill easily with upsmash / uair / bair at the top of the fin. Problem is that Falco also shares some of these traits. He can laser camp on the left side, combo well on the right, kill easier than usual with bair at the top of the fin, and survive well horizontally (which helps immensely due to his bad recovery). But if you watch that Mango vs M2K match, you'll notice that they killed each other with dsmashes on the edges of the level, so it doesn't really matter that the stage is so wide. The stage is good for both Fox and Falco, since Fox can cg all day without platforms + he kills VERY easy with uair / upsmash at the top of tge fin. Falco can waveshine > dair all day when he goes from the left side of the level to the right because the rising slope helps him catch up with the increasing height Fox receives from the shines.

Overall, it's slightly in favor for Fox though.

For Poke Floats, I think the moving stage messes up Fox's cg and Falco can laser camp all day on it, so I think it's in Falco's favor.

 

[Strong Badam]

fox's cg isn't much of this matchup, much like Marth's on spaceys are just a small part of the match-up as a whole.
yes, it helps, but it's really not that big of a deal if you can't do it. Cactuar doesn't CG and he ***** face.

 

[x After Dawn x]

Which is why Fox doesn't have a HUGE advantage on Falco on that stage, and why they aren't even in terms of matchups. Unless you're M2K, it's almost impossible to cg a DI'ing opponent perfectly and consistently throughout an entire 4-stock match. Not only that, but it doesn't rack up THAT much damage anyway and it's not like you'll just be cg'ing.

 

[joeplicate]

well, it's easier to chaingrab a falco than it is for falco to combo you on the fin

since the level's got shape retardedness it's better for fox
plus, in the box, the extra priority on fox's moves helps out a lot

 

[x After Dawn x]

A lot of what's been said is theory though, I think in an actual match you won't see all these benefits for each character, but Fox definitely has a bit of an advantage on it vs Falco.

 

[Rubyiris]

Fox has stage advantage on like every stage in the game. **** is dumb.

Falco sucks on non neutrals. FD and PS are probably his least useful neutrals. Useless platforms on PS, and no platforms on FD just sucks. Falcofield, Falco's Story, and Falcoland are the best stages for him. Fountain of Falco if you're used to the stage.

 

[Deleted member]

CG only works purely on FD which is in Fox's advantage. Every other stage it isn't as certain whereas platforms extend Falcos combos much better while giving Fox a bit more mobility. But Falco generally holds a slight advantage everywhere but FD. Not counting counterpicks but even then he holds a slight advantage on most of the other stages.

somewhat the opposite. FD allows falco to follow-up on his combos, making them much longer. it also negates any platform camping, thus lasers become infinitely more effective.

despite the CG, I almost always ban FD as fox against falco. ultimately, platform usage is fox's best tool to fight falco.

 

[Rubyiris]

CG only works purely on FD which is in Fox's advantage. Every other stage it isn't as certain whereas platforms extend Falcos combos much better while giving Fox a bit more mobility. But Falco generally holds a slight advantage everywhere but FD. Not counting counterpicks but even then he holds a slight advantage on most of the other stages.

Fox is even with, if not slightly better than Falco. Improved mobility, and priority, and a better edgegame.

Fox should have the advantage on FD and PS, as well as every counter pick stage available.

It's just not a good match-up for Falco, but at the same time, it's probably as close as it gets to Fox actually HAVING "bad" match up.

Lol at whoever things Fox isn't the best character in the game. There's just no comparison.

 

[Fletch]

Just because he is the best character in the game doesn't mean he doesn't have bad matchups. This isn't Barwl.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

i find that falco's combos are shortened without platforms to continue them on. fox, however, combos falco extremely well without the platforms. actually, he combos falco extremely well even with the platforms. its a pretty even match-up, but i think its slightly in fox's favor (and a little bit more on FD)

 

[gnosis]

Fox is even with, if not slightly better than Falco. Improved mobility, and priority, and a better edgegame.

Fox has more priority than Falco? I always thought priority was one of Fox's problems in the matchup. At least it seems like Falco's moves tend to eat through Fox's much more than vice versa.

 

[x After Dawn x]

Pretty sure Falco has more priority, it just seems like Fox does because he's a lot faster and can actually do run > nair as a good approach.

Ruby, you're wrong (yet again), even if the matchup would be on Fox's favor, it would be the smallest advantage possible, not a huge one. Either way, it's fairly evident now that the matchup is equal or slightly in Falco's favor, and you're acting as if Fox is the Meta Knight of Melee or something. Also Fox does not have the advantage on every counterpick, we already discussed earlier why.

 

[Strong Badam]

Just because he is the best character in the game doesn't mean he doesn't have bad matchups.

You're right.
He's the best character in the game BECAUSE he doesn't have any bad match-ups.

Jungle Japes is just about the only CP that Fox DOESN'T have an advantage vs. Falco on, and even then he can laser camp like a ***** and shield/reflect Falco's lasers on reaction. Shinespikes are also very deadly on Jungle Japes.
Then again, we aren't playing Super Theory Bros., we're playing Super Smash Bros. I've never seen a high-leveled Falco consistently beat high-level Foxes, it's always been the other way around (M2K vs. anyone, Jman ***** face against everyone, etc.)

 

[Fletch]

Mango, Shiz, Zhu