Q&A Mechanics & Techniques Discussion

[Darklink401]

I was using Villager, and I can go from shorthop -> fair/bair/nair/upair to the lag cancel, which as soon as I do it allows me to do something else without waiting for the Villager to lower his head and raise it back as he does when he lands. I've done it a couple of times with dair, but it's quite a bit harder.

 

[wolfos144]

Do you think it's possible to post a video of you doing it?

 

[Darklink401]

Yeah I was getting to that, I actually decided it'd be better to show rather than tell XD I'm recording it now, though its from my phone, so it'll take a few minutes XP (I'll post it as soon as its uploaded)

See, at first I thought it was just fast falling, but when you fast fall normally you still get landing lag. With this, you stop the character's landing lag motion just as its about to happen and go idle.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

Are you pressing the attack button? Cause Villager's Dair has a basically lagless autocancel if you land before the turnips go down.

Edit: Never mind I think I know what's going on. You can already do stuff nearly right out of landing. Try it. Do a full jump, and jab right when you land. If you time it right you'll see that you'll punch without having to wait for the Villager to lift their head again. When you tilt down before landing and then release it, you're just canceling the landing animation with the crouching one, and then since you let go of the circle pad before the entire crouch animation goes through, you stand back up, so it looks like the you didn't go through the landing animation and thus didn't experience lag. But it just LOOKS like you aren't experiencing lag, when you aren't really in the first place, since you can interrupt the landing animation with attacks before its done

The fact that you seem to always wait for the landing animation to finish before trying to attack worries me though...

 

[Darklink401]

Nope, tried it with Ganon just now, as he actually crouches DOWN in his landing lag, but doesn't with this technique...so let's see the comparison shall we?

Added to OP as well =P

Also edited thread title since I'm more sure this is a thing now XD

 

[Indigo Jeans]

Check my post. Also in a few instances when you did the "lag cancel" you can see the sparkle from a fast fall. You're getting to the ground quicker, and like I said, you're basically interrupting the landing animation with a shorter one so it looks lagless. But try jabbing right as you hit the ground, and you'll see what I mean, especially with Villager. You don't have to wait for a landing animation to end before you can act

Also the "L" in L-Cancelling doesn't stand for "lag", it's the actual L button cause in melee you could decrease an aerial's landing lag by tapping L or R right before landing

Better yet, hold shield, jump OoS while still holding shield, and keep holding shield while you land. You'll see the shield comes back out nearly before the landing animation even begins.

 

[Darklink401]

Actually whenever I did the forward tilt with Villager, it would go immediately from landing to attack, whereas landing normally and attacking took a tiny bit longer. And if they stand up faster from lag, doesn't it mean overall good things? XD

I guess it goes along with this

http://playeressence.com/super-smash-bros-for-wii-u3ds-l-cancel-equivalent-might-possibly-found/

Though I remember that, yeah, someone mentioned that L-cancelling SHOULD stand for lag-cancelling, as it was that, but was just L-cancelling cuz L button. XP oops.


Again, that's just what I've been analyzing, and while that article notes that you can shield, attack, etc, I feel being able to get out of landing lag just by pressing down before you land would be pretty useful x.x I think

 

[Z1GMA]

I recently ran into something that I'd like to call Butter Clash or Clash Stun.
I don't think I've seen this in previous titles, and I'm not 100% sure why it happens.

Pick Ganondorf and Marth. Have Ganon Warlockpunch and then have Marth clash with with it at max range (tipper), preferably with his Ftilt.
If done correctly, the two moves will clash, but Marth will be in some sort of stun for almost 30 frames, allowing Ganon to actually punish him whit pretty much anything.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

...that's just the new clanking mechanics.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Darklink401]

Butter Clash feels like butter dunnit? It's happened to me.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

I recently ran into something that I'd like to call Butter Clash or Clash Stun.
I don't think I've seen this in previous titles, and I'm not 100% sure why it happens.

Pick Ganondorf and Marth. Have Ganon Warlockpunch and then have Marth clash with with it at max range (tipper), preferably with his Ftilt.
If done correctly, the two moves will clash, but Marth will be in some sort of stun for almost 30 frames, allowing Ganon to actually punish him whit pretty much anything.

Clash lag seems dependent on the power of the attacks. The character using the stronger attack will have shorter recovery, while the character with the weaker attack will have longer recovery. The greater the disparity between the attacks' power, the longer the "loser" of the clash is stuck in recovery frames.

 

[Z1GMA]

Clash lag seems dependent on the power of the attacks. The character using the stronger om this attack will have shorter recovery, while the character with the weaker attack will have longer recovery. The greater the disparity between the attacks' power, the longer the "loser" of the clash is stuck in recovery frames.

Which means Ganon will befefit A LOT from this compared to the majority of characters. Sweet.

 

[Thinkaman]

I recently ran into something that I'd like to call Butter Clash

I like you Z1GMA, but I'm revoking your naming privileges.

 

[Darklink401]

But just THINK of the future possibilities.

....

okay that was bad.

 

[Thinkaman]

I mean we should obviously call this DeLux clashing.

 

[-RedX-]

It's just new clash mechanics.
Could call it Power Clashing if you want though.

 

[Z1GMA]

I like you Z1GMA, but I'm revoking your naming privileges.

Ever heard of Salmon Smash? lol

 

[Phan7om]

Nope, tried it with Ganon just now, as he actually crouches DOWN in his landing lag, but doesn't with this technique...so let's see the comparison shall we?

Added to OP as well =P

Also edited thread title since I'm more sure this is a thing now XD

Idk, I havent tried this so I cant make any final judgements, but to me it just looks like you're landing during the autocancel frames of the moves startup. Most characters except like Tink, ROB, Zelda, and Pika can do it (probably more the knowledge came from Brawl). During the startup of the move there are a few frames before the hitbox comes out where there will be 0 landing lag... well just the landing lag from jumping. Most aerials have this. You will even see the cloud/dust when this happens.

 

[Darklink401]

Idk, I havent tried this so I cant make any final judgements, but to me it just looks like you're landing during the autocancel frames of the moves startup. Most characters except like Tink, ROB, Zelda, and Pika can do it (probably more the knowledge came from Brawl). During the startup of the move there are a few frames before the hitbox comes out where there will be 0 landing lag... well just the landing lag from jumping. Most aerials have this. You will even see the cloud/dust when this happens.

Mhmm, while it does cancel landing lag its just from normal jumps, and only in the timeframe you can shield or attack anyway.

Which I just found out XP

However, I will still use it as I'd hope, at least, that having a 0-frame landing as opposed to a 4-frame landing would help someone who wants to combo.....right? XP

 

[Doval]

Is it just me or is possible to now do Nspecial, Dspecial, and Sspecial OoS like you can Uspecial?

EDIT - So I don't think this is a OoS option in the normal sense. Instead I think all Special are Jump Cancelable. You can JC any special out of the dash animation or skid animation. This work for Shields to. You can tell by how there is an extremely small hop. I think this is going to prove to have some really good uses.

That's just a short hop with a special immediately afterwards. The reason it feels you can do it straight out of a jump is that you can buffer the move during the jump's start-up animation so it comes out on the very first frame. That's not a jump cancel though; jump canceled up smashes and up Bs literally cancel the jump before your feet leave the ground.

Regarding clashing, I'm fairly sure it already worked that way in Melee.

 

[Darklink401]

That's just a short hop with a special immediately afterwards. The reason it feels you can do it straight out of a jump is that you can buffer the move during the jump's start-up animation so it comes out on the very first frame. That's not a jump cancel though; jump canceled up smashes and up Bs literally cancel the jump before your feet leave the ground.

Regarding clashing, I'm fairly sure it already worked that way in Melee.

It left characters vulnerable for an equal amount of time IIRC

 

[Doval]

It left characters vulnerable for an equal amount of time IIRC

Actually I just went back and tested with two Marios, Jab vs Jab left them with almost equal amounts of recovery while Jab vs Up Tilt left the Up Tilt Mario with more recovery. It actually worked backwards.

Tested in Training Mode at 1/4 speed by attacking and then holding the shield button to see which one came up first after the clash.

 

[Darklink401]

Oh aight. This could be interestingly useful =P Though rather situational.

 

[allshort17]

Has anyone considered that because of the lack of grab armor, this game now has a semi-legit throw break. For example, ZSS's frame one jab could be used to stuff a grab and force them to break. Is there an limit on the amount of percent needed to cause a throw break and has anyone considered trying this out?

 

[mimgrim]

Pretty sure ZSS' Jab isn't frame 1 in this game.

Mac's is though.

 

[Locke 06]

Each character has two walking animations and speeds. This is most visible with Little Mac (shuffle vs semi-run). My understanding is that the slow walk has a range of how fast you can walk while the fast walk is a set speed. Is this correct? Also, is there any other difference between the two walks?

 

[Thinkaman]

There are 3, it's just different animations.

 

[SamuraiPanda]

All 3 are the same property-wise.

 

[saviorslegacy]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7sW97NU-R4&feature=youtu.be
Not sure if it is new or not.

To perform simply be close to the ledge if not right on top of the ledge, auto attack, let sheik fall off when she goes to finish the attack and buffer a Nair or a Fair,

It works for Sheik, Falco, Fox, Pit and Dark Pit.

 

[Signia]

Someone apparently this Brawl tech works in Smash 4? Crawldashing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FL4DFxJLO5M

GIMR was doing it in on stream in Smash 4 with Sheik. How do you do it?

 

[Tagxy]

Not really a Q&A but I think this forum is in great need of a "best videos of each character" thread. Im not sure Ill manage it well so Im hoping someone here is able to. With wifi play being so prominent I think its important people have a source to look up high level videos.

 

[SkyboundTerror]

Figured I'd drop this here since I was completely ignored in the thread I posted it in. lol

So I may have stumbled across a neat trick for Charizard involving his multiple jumps and back air, though I have yet to find a proper use for it. Basically, the idea is to instantaneously use his back air, on his second or third jump, while reversing your momentum. I've tested this with other characters that can change the direction they are facing after a second jump, and it works with them as well, but it's most notable with Charizard since his tail can cause heavy damage.

To pull it off, you need to jump, slightly move the circle pad in the opposite direction you were facing (or hard depending on how far you want to retreat), jump again and almost immediately press the button to attack. The timing is very hard to get down, but if you do it properly, you should get a back air coming out the direction you were facing without ever having to jolt the circle pad back to input your attack.

Is this already a known thing? I searched around the internet and nothing came up, but my searching skills are questionable. If it isn't a known thing, I'll get a short video up to show how it works.

You can also reverse your momentum for forward airs and back airs using the second and third jumps. I'm not the best at explaining things, but it's the same idea behind reversing your momentum with special attacks, but you have to jump to pull it off.

 

[Shaya]

Yes, you can turn around on characters with multi jumps. Relatively well known by anyone who's played a multijump character.

 

[Epok]

I came across something the other day and so far I have not seen anyone post about it. I don't wanna call it a NEW TECH before I confirm that this is unknown information or not.

We all know that shielding and rolling are pretty solid in this game. What I have come across is that if you hold the shield button while another aerial is active(like Mario's n-air), when the move auto cancels and you touch the ground you can roll instantly. This also works for air dodging as well. If you air dodge and keep holding the button as soon as you touch down you can tilt the directional pad to roll as soon as you hit the ground.

Personally, I call it "tumbling" for short.

You can still roll with out holding the shield button, but if you miss the timing you will go into your landing animation and it will not be as fast. Holding the shield button as you are landing makes the transition form aerial to roll smoother.

This is really good to cross ups or if you miss your spacing on an aerial attack. This is also good after an air dodge when coming over the edge, because there is only a small window where your invincibility frames are gone.

I will attempt to make a video if there isn't already one so you can see what I'm talking about.

So has anyone else know about this, or did I come across something new?

 

[SkyboundTerror]

Yes, you can turn around on characters with multi jumps. Relatively well known by anyone who's played a multijump character.

Using the technique I stated?

 

[Shaya]

Re: Defensive Mechanics

Action | Active | End
Roll | 4 – 20 | 30
Spot Dodge | 3 – 19 | 26
Shielding | 2 - 11 | 18

This is just Marth, so while shielding is likely universal (bar yoshi) the rest may not.

Shielding has been nerfed. From a minimum shield hold of 7 frames to 10, and actually having start up. Shield dropping is still 7 frames, as like Brawl.
Spot dodge nerfed, 1 frame extra start up, 7 frames of cool down compared to 4.
Roll... start up is the same as Brawl, the only defensive mechanic in the game without the 1 frame nerf; 1 frame more invincibility than the average from Brawl, with 1 frame less cool down than the average from Brawl.

Testing Mario and Toon Link... the general consensus is
Spot dodge cool down is 7 frames after invincibility, while roll cool down is 10 frames after invincibility.

TL has a 2-17 Spot Dodge, ends on frame 24 (he had the fastest spot dodge class in Brawl, still seems there's some 2 frame spot dodges in this :<). TL's rolls are 4-17/27.

Mario's spot dodge is the same as Marth's and his rolls are 4-19/29.

Brawl data: http://smashboards.com/threads/dodge-roll-frame-data-now-with-air-dodge.225510/

 

[M15t3R E]

I came across something the other day and so far I have not seen anyone post about it. I don't wanna call it a NEW TECH before I confirm that this is unknown information or not.

We all know that shielding and rolling are pretty solid in this game. What I have come across is that if you hold the shield button while another aerial is active(like Mario's n-air), when the move auto cancels and you touch the ground you can roll instantly. This also works for air dodging as well. If you air dodge and keep holding the button as soon as you touch down you can tilt the directional pad to roll as soon as you hit the ground.

Personally, I call it "tumbling" for short.

You can still roll with out holding the shield button, but if you miss the timing you will go into your landing animation and it will not be as fast. Holding the shield button as you are landing makes the transition form aerial to roll smoother.

This is really good to cross ups or if you miss your spacing on an aerial attack. This is also good after an air dodge when coming over the edge, because there is only a small window where your invincibility frames are gone.

I will attempt to make a video if there isn't already one so you can see what I'm talking about.

So has anyone else know about this, or did I come across something new?

I think you are just autocanceling the aerial. I tested Mario's n-air without autocanceling it in training mode under 1/4 speed and the shield button/roll does not autocancel it either.

Re: Defensive Mechanics

Action | Active | End
Roll | 4 – 20 | 30
Spot Dodge | 3 – 19 | 26
Shielding | 2 - 11 | 18

This is just Marth, so while shielding is likely universal (bar yoshi) the rest may not.

Shielding has been nerfed. From a minimum shield hold of 7 frames to 10, and actually having start up. Shield dropping is still 7 frames, as like Brawl.
Spot dodge nerfed, 1 frame extra start up, 7 frames of cool down compared to 4.
Roll... start up is the same as Brawl, the only defensive mechanic in the game without the 1 frame nerf; 1 frame more invincibility than the average from Brawl, with 1 frame less cool down than the average from Brawl.

Testing Mario and Toon Link... the general consensus is
Spot dodge cool down is 7 frames after invincibility, while roll cool down is 10 frames after invincibility.

TL has a 2-17 Spot Dodge, ends on frame 24 (he had the fastest spot dodge class in Brawl, still seems there's some 2 frame spot dodges in this :<). TL's rolls are 4-17/27.

Mario's spot dodge is the same as Marth's and his rolls are 4-19/29.

Brawl data: http://smashboards.com/threads/dodge-roll-frame-data-now-with-air-dodge.225510/

It's unfortunate in my mind that roll is buffed while spot dodge and shielding are nerfed. Rolling is ever-present in For Glory mode but I guess people will just have to learn to predict rolls.

 

[Squirty]

Hey. This is old news, but for those who weren't aware yet, there is a difference between a rapid Jump-Up-A and all of the other Jump-A attacks. I didn't test N64 version, but this behaviour has been around since Melee at least. I suspect it is an artefact of up-jump controls from back in Melee (or earlier) when you couldn't disable it.

Video shows 3DS. This is the exact same behaviour as Brawl.

This is similar behaviour to Melee -- except that in Melee, your A attack would simply not register at all if it happened soon enough after your jump unless it was an Up-A attack (in which case it would register as a Flick-Up-A, similar to Brawl and 3DS).

 

[Epok]

I think you are just autocanceling the aerial. I tested Mario's n-air without autocanceling it in training mode under 1/4 speed and the shield button/roll does not autocancel it either.


It's unfortunate in my mind that roll is buffed while spot dodge and shielding are nerfed. Rolling is ever-present in For Glory mode but I guess people will just have to learn to predict rolls.

Oh, I never meant to say that rolling cancels the lag at all. The concept of works around the fact that the move has to auto cancel. It's just the that if you hold the shield button down while the n-air is active your shield and rolls can come out right away when when you make contact with the ground.

That's why I didn't wanna make a huge deal out if it yet. I'm working on a video right now.

 

[M15t3R E]

Oh, I never meant to say that rolling cancels the lag at all. The concept of works around the fact that the move has to auto cancel. It's just the that if you hold the shield button down while the n-air is active your shield and rolls can come out right away when when you make contact with the ground.

That's why I didn't wanna make a huge deal out if it yet. I'm working on a video right now.

Let me get this straight. You are saying that the landing lag (which is present even after autocanceled aerials) is canceled by this technique? I'm still seeing lag when I try it.