Matchup Thread: WHAT TIME IS IT?

[itsthebigfoot]

yeah, when nana's dead, gg, the cargo becomes a kill move on popo

 

[powuh_of_PIE]

also note: DK is one of the few people who can safely grab either IC, his cargo has SA long enough for you to separate them, making the matchup much easier.

 

[gantrain05]

so yeah, been recently picking up DK, and my friends plays a pretty good IC's and i ended up 2 stocking him 3 times in a row, DK's tilts are just too good lol, Ftilt, Dtilt, Upwards tilting Ftilt, the IC's couldn't even get close lol.

 

[Ripple]

also note: DK is one of the few people who can safely grab either IC, his cargo has SA long enough for you to separate them, making the matchup much easier.

there is no super armor on cargo, just heavy armor. like snakes up b

 

[itsthebigfoot]

bu the heavy armor lasts enough to throw the ic's

 

[Jingo_Joe]

The heavy armor lasts actually until DK's cargo ends. Theoretically, if an attack did no damage and had a consistent low knock-back, that attack could hit DK for an infinitely if DK's (other) opponent could not get out of Cargo.

 

[Terodactyl Yelnats]

Whenever I play G@W as DK that stupid neutral B pisses me off. But I've found a reliable counter for it. DK has an underused and forgetful down-B. His down-B has good grounded range and can counter other annoying techniques almost as well.

 

[blakinola]

I down B usually after d-tilt. That and grounded Up+B when they are near the ledge so they fall off and you can get your act together. I never Bair unless they're in the air because of DK's huge frame--but an over b (cause their shield isn't that large) out of nowhere can turn the tide...free fsmash.

Even though this match is in the IC's favor, when Nana is gone, then it's time for the rains in Africa to be blessed.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

dk's got the edge... it's pretty easy to avoid the grabs, and if you space yourself and don't get caught, they die early. it's like playing dedede except they have really crap grab range, and you can stop the infinite with a well placed fair at 50%

also twist, the chef is really easy to get around, you have a move called the donkey punch that blows through all of gdubs's hitboxes. chef is no exception

 

[Donkey Bong]

if you cargo an IC though, they can hit you out of it with a smash, or just grab you.

 

[Blad01]

The Falco boards are currently discussing DK's match-up. Please contribute : http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=208988.

 

[A2ZOMG]

also twist, the chef is really easy to get around, you have a move called the donkey punch that blows through all of gdubs's hitboxes. chef is no exception

Giant Punch is shieldgrabbable, not to mention a lot of DK's attacks are shieldgrabbable in general. If you see him attacking, and run up with a shield, you'll get a grab 90% of the time.

Once he gets Chef started, you're not getting past it. Properly spaced, it outranges DK, and he has no attacks that can successfully protect him from an entire volley. It stops pretty much any approach he has if used right. It can really mess with his recovery too. Yeah, you can punish it if he spaces it wrong since it takes a while to start up, but once he actually gets it going, it's safe.

Also, if you're above G&W, and he reads where you land, you die if you're at like 90% or above. G&W has charge release Up-smash against DK. I've killed bigfoot at least three times with this in the course of two matches. It can't be punished either since Up-smash has no ending lag.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

Originally Posted by itsthebigfoot View Post
also twist, the chef is really easy to get around, you have a move called the donkey punch that blows through all of gdubs's hitboxes.

Giant Punch is shieldgrabbable, not to mention a lot of DK's attacks are shieldgrabbable in general. If you see him attacking, and run up with a shield, you'll get a grab 90% of the time.

Once he gets Chef started, you're not getting past it. Properly spaced, it outranges DK, and he has no attacks that can successfully protect him from an entire volley. It stops pretty much any approach he has if used right. It can really mess with his recovery too. Yeah, you can punish it if he spaces it wrong since it takes a while to start up, but once he actually gets it going, it's safe.

Also, if you're above G&W, and he reads where you land, you die if you're at like 90% or above. G&W has charge release Up-smash against DK. I've killed bigfoot at least three times with this in the course of two matches. It can't be punished either since Up-smash has no ending lag.

did you miss the part where i said, the punch goes through all hit boxes? I have NEVER been grabbed while attacking an attack hitbox, I am quite sure it is physically impossible.

and once chef has started, you can walk up to the pan and punch, i've done it about 3-4 times. It isn't safe so long as you aren't a tool and are willing to take one sausage before punching him.

also, both (not counting japes because you don't kill there till much later) those games, you didn't kill me once before 120, those were online too. thats without good DI. and like all of gdubs moves, and this point you have repeatedly ignored in a "LALALALALA I can't here you" fashion, you can punish it MID ATTACK. all of his "safe" attacks are not safe so long as i have a punch stocked, I have punished hundreds of turtles and usmashes, which, according to you, are safe.

usmash is gdubs only move that is likely to kill you, his aerials and non sweetspotted dsmash are too weak, and he won't land an fsmash or sweetspotted dsmash. he has to pray you run into a usmash, which happens a lot more online. in person you can still punch camp.

also, dk's usmash completely nullifies his key. seriously, try it, you'll die at 60


EDIT: starting the re-check, here are the matchups in question
R.O.B. as a DK advantage
Snake as a DK advantage
Marth as a DK advantage
Gdubs as a DK advantage
Olimar as a Neutral/ DK advantage
Falco as a Neutral

all of these are a shift towards dk, because i feel that i let the trolls who don't know the matchup have too much say, and when you learn the matchup, dk has the edge and/or it's neutral. reasoning why

R.O.B. - rob is very easy to properly space with downb, I've started doing this more, and I haven't dropped a set. approaching with upb also helps a lot, as the SA goes straight through whatever he tries.

Snake - what kept snake in the match was his camp game, but i found an easy way around it. run up, when he pulls out a grenade, headbutt. when he shield drops it, it'll detonate the grenade, blow you up, and act as a shield breaker for snake. it is avoidable on snakes part, but it limits his camp game out of threat of a shieldbreaker, which allows dk to close the distance a bit easier, since the snake will no longer grenade counter out of fear. not game changing, but i think it changes the matchup enough.

Marth - when i was doing marth, i got ahold of mikehaze on aim, thinking "he'd say it's neutral too" so I asked him how the dk matchup went, and said I think it was neutral. his response was, "are you ********? dk counters marth"
Here's what I've found. you out-space him, you're just longer and stronger, he can't keep you at swords length. a grab can kill him, jump off the ledge - dthrow is a death sentence. his sideb works like an aerial priority-wise and bair goes through it, RAR bair limits this move to OOS punish only. Finally, your stocks last much longer than his, even though its a game of pokes where you damage at about the same pace.

gdubs - already arguing

Olimar - upb sweeps the pikmin off, and goes through everything but a grab (including shields). so after 2 upbs or so, he'll just try to grab, downb beats grab. you now have a mixup approach, and a pikmin clear, those were the two problems the oli mains posed. have fun

Falco - not really sure why I listed this as disadvantage, he has lasers, you have much longer stocks. at early %s, downb a LOT, because it prevents them from grabbing, don't be predictable with it, but it will stop all ground approaches to a grab, after that, watch for nairs

 

[daisho]

did you miss the part where i said, the punch goes through all hit boxes? I have NEVER been grabbed while attacking an attack hitbox, I am quite sure it is physically impossible.

Not sure exactly what that means, but if it means that you have never been grabbed out of The Punch and have dealt damage i have. I did that a couple of times and almost cried too

 

[Ragnar0k]

Don't punch shields or grabs, it's that simple. Punch turtles, fairs, smashes, keys, whatever. It's dumb to punch shields. He's basically saying that if you punch the turtle or Fsmash or something he can't grab you because he's attacking.

 

[daisho]

Don't punch shields or grabs, it's that simple. Punch turtles, fairs, smashes, keys, whatever. It's dumb to punch shields. He's basically saying that if you punch the turtle or Fsmash or something he can't grab you because he's attacking.

oh lol, i get it

 

[mikeHAZE]

^ mikehaze is convinced that dk counters marth, so he gave up on the matchup.

his secondary is falco, so he just cg's the crap out of dk's. don't cp luigis on him.

thankfully, his falco isn't that good, so when you get around the cg you can probably win

nah it's more like,

why work harder than i have to

 

[itsthebigfoot]

^ but dk does have the edge

 

[mikeHAZE]

edge cancel.


da.

 

[Ripple]

^ do you only appear when your name is typed? are you a genie?

 

[mikeHAZE]

that's right son

 

[Ragnar0k]

^ do you only appear when your name is typed? are you a genie?

He probably just spends most of his time searching the forums for his own name.

 

[Nokonoko]

As long as you’re bringing up old matchup discussions …

Do you pros feel that the GFSC has changed the MK matchup significantly now?

 

[Cyphus]

DK vs ROB..i call it evenish..45-55, i have alot of experience in this matchup. once ur good at powershielding the projectiles, it helps alot, but Rob is still a huge pain in the *** if he ledgecamps (which a smart one will)

vs Snake...40-60 (grenades and f.tilt ****, i'm sorry)
vs marth 50-50
Gdubs..probably 50-50ish...give or take 5

zamus's retreating forward B (with mixing it neutral B) is super-D-double-**** vs dk. lol wut i do?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Hey bigfoot, I'm just gonna say, I play a lot less DKs than you play G&Ws, and out of the three matches I've faced you in this matchup I've won two (one was CPing RC I admit, but BF should be pretty neutral for both characters). Granted, the one thing I learned is you have to pay attention to him a lot because he kills pretty early if you make a mistake.

The only thing I really noticed in this matchup is that I really only got killed when I wasn't paying attention to what I was doing. I usually fell into the habit of the same routine of B-air approaches even when you had a Giant punch charged. However when I was edgecamping (where of course I'm paying attention to every last thing you're doing) I couldn't be touched.

If G&W properly spaces Chef, it will hit some part of your body that isn't attacking if you try to punish it. See, when characters use an attack, it doesn't usually have a hitbox covering their entire body. Chef covers a really wide area with multiple hitboxes, and the odds are not in your favor for getting past it because chances are one of the sausages will hit a part of your body that isn't a hitbox. Besides that, DK doesn't exactly have any real way around it while recovering.

F-air and U-air kill pretty effectively if undiminished. F-air gets him off stage at minimum, and he can't punish it easily when fullhopped.

Giant Punch is shieldgrabbable, and DK really doesn't have too many approach options against a defensive opponent. Giant Punch is also not even that fast. It's slower than G&W's Smashes. Really, my mistake was trying to go on the offensive against DK when he has the Giant Punch fully charged. I was able to shieldgrab it at least twice against you though. Besides, running up and shieldgrabbing works against a number of DK's attacks besides the Giant Punch as far as I noticed, and the rest of his strategy can be countered with Up-Bs or aerials out of shield.

Really, I think the main problem about this matchup is most G&Ws don't have much experience in it and don't recognize a lot of the patterns DK likes to use, and most G&W's fall into bad habits, which they can't against a character who kills early (by the way...it is entirely possible to overcome bad habits). DK is not as common of a character as others. We really gotta have some more matches sometime.

 

[Donkey Bong]

i would say falco and DK are even
G&W and DK, slightly in DK's favor
ROB v DK even
idk much about marth.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

^ do you only appear when your name is typed? are you a genie?

I'm sigging this

EDIT:

Hey bigfoot, I'm just gonna say, I play a lot less DKs than you play G&Ws, and out of the three matches I've faced you in this matchup I've won two (one was CPing RC I admit, but BF should be pretty neutral for both characters). Granted, the one thing I learned is you have to pay attention to him a lot because he kills pretty early if you make a mistake.

The only thing I really noticed in this matchup is that I really only got killed when I wasn't paying attention to what I was doing. I usually fell into the habit of the same routine of B-air approaches even when you had a Giant punch charged. However when I was edgecamping (where of course I'm paying attention to every last thing you're doing) I couldn't be touched.

If G&W properly spaces Chef, it will hit some part of your body that isn't attacking if you try to punish it. See, when characters use an attack, it doesn't usually have a hitbox covering their entire body. Chef covers a really wide area with multiple hitboxes, and the odds are not in your favor for getting past it because chances are one of the sausages will hit a part of your body that isn't a hitbox. Besides that, DK doesn't exactly have any real way around it while recovering.

F-air and U-air kill pretty effectively if undiminished. F-air gets him off stage at minimum, and he can't punish it easily when fullhopped.

Giant Punch is shieldgrabbable, and DK really doesn't have too many approach options against a defensive opponent. Giant Punch is also not even that fast. It's slower than G&W's Smashes. Really, my mistake was trying to go on the offensive against DK when he has the Giant Punch fully charged. I was able to shieldgrab it at least twice against you though. Besides, running up and shieldgrabbing works against a number of DK's attacks besides the Giant Punch as far as I noticed, and the rest of his strategy can be countered with Up-Bs or aerials out of shield.

Really, I think the main problem about this matchup is most G&Ws don't have much experience in it and don't recognize a lot of the patterns DK likes to use, and most G&W's fall into bad habits, which they can't against a character who kills early (by the way...it is entirely possible to overcome bad habits). DK is not as common of a character as others. We really gotta have some more matches sometime.

3 things

1. those were online, I screw around way too much online

2. I won both those sets, and i've one 2 of the 3 gdubs games, the one on japes and one of the battlefield ones, the second battlefield game i had too, tried to fsmash and tripped into your fsmash. sakurai johns

3. you never shield grabbed my punch, i only used the punch 5 times, 4 landed, 1 whiffed.

I'll reply to the rest when i'm not half asleep

 

[TheNix]

I don't have much experience with the Falco or G&W matchups (since I'm the person in our group who uses both of those characters), but I have a lot of experience with Marth and a bit with ROB.

Marth - Feels like a slight DK advantage. Marth can get a lot good things going against DK, but there's very little he can do about proper spacing with bairs, ftilts, and the down+b. For Marth to get an advantage, he either needs to get a (relatively) early tipped fsmash kill, or he needs to spike DK's recovery. I should note that DK can hold back during his up+b to fake out the spike, so this isn't reliable. I would say this is 55-45 or maybe even 60-40 for DK.

ROB - Projectiles are a pain, but overall this matchup doesn't feel too bad. I want to say it's even or a DK advantage, but I don't think I have quite enough experience yet with this matchup to have a say.

 

[A2ZOMG]

2. I won both those sets, and i've one 2 of the 3 gdubs games, the one on japes and one of the battlefield ones, the second battlefield game i had too, tried to fsmash and tripped into your fsmash. sakurai johns

Firstoff, I didn't use G&W on Japes. I used ROB there I'm pretty sure.

We had 3 matches with my G&W total. Two on battlefield, and one on RC.

And C-stick F-smash smashes. You shouldn't trip. If you really need to charge it hold Z lol.

3. you never shield grabbed my punch, i only used the punch 5 times, 4 landed, 1 whiffed.

I'm 99% sure I shieldgrabbed one of those.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Here are my opinions / experiences

vs Gdubs: 6/4 DKs favour
vs Marth: 6/4 DKs favour
vs ROB: 45/55 ROBs favour
vs Falco: 45/55 Falcos favour

 

[OmniOstrich]

After me and Rag both played Karn (who is a very good ROB player) and both got knocked out by him this weekend, I really really don't think its a DK advantage, or even neutral.

Karn said something along the lines of 'Yeah, DK is probably ROB's easiest matchup of the top played characters. He can easily camp and rack up damage and you have to have near perfect spacing even when you do get in range, plus rob can make good use of glide tossing and his disjointed hit boxes to keep DK completely shut down.'

He really wasn't lieing. Rag went GaW for a couple of his matches (sorry, i didnt get to watch them all), and i think thats about all that needs to be said about that.

In my matches I couldn't hardly land anything, I managed to live to +150% every stock but it didn't matter bc i could only put in 60-70% on Karn, I did what was mentioned in the thread on AiB and none of it really did much, when I glide tossed he PS'ed it, and I only got a few chances to even hold the top. When I headbutt I got a free huge combo, but he still had pretty low damage. I had to be really careful approaching with bairs, he could use his disjointed bair to brickwall me. downB ate chunks out of his shield but once he was pushed outside he would jump gyro and laser and continue to camp. upB scored a few hits, but it doesn't combo into anything and ROB isn't ever going to be worried about being stuck on the ledge.

Uair is hardly helpful, except through platforms, bc his nair and dair are both more disjointed and rob can stall in the air while you approach him.

His ftilt>dtilt and faster than our ftilt, SH fair's are mor disjointed than both of them

its just a really bad matchup, the saving point is that you live to high %s otherwise it would be extremely difficult.

EDIT:I played him in friendlies and never could beat his ROB with DK

 

[crifer]

zamus's retreating forward B (with mixing it neutral B) is super-D-double-**** vs dk. lol wut i do?

I have the same problem, also zamus b to grab is sicken me

 

[Luigi player]

Here's my opinion/experience:

DK 60:40 GaW
DK 40:60 Marth
DK 50:50 ROB

I never really faced a good Falco so I can't really say anything about that matchup... I think it's about even though, but I don't know.


And Zamus is so easy with DK lol. He kills her at about 80 % or less.
I'd say it's 60:40 or maybe even 65:35... or maybe I'm just too good XD

 

[itsthebigfoot]

@ omni, maybe he just out played you, cause i thought that after shadowrob beat me, but shadowrob is also better than me, and the best rob on the west coast. I might have to put this off again, i'm making a big post on the rob forums that i'll copy here when i'm done.

 

[Ragnar0k]

I can't wait bigfoot, I need some Karn er... ROB help.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

copied from the rob board


ok, here's the basics, you're going to camp us the whole **** day, it's just what you do.

dk has three conventional ways of approaching rob, and one unconventional way
1. bairs - a2 mentioned the mixup. you really wanna guess right on this, because if dk guesses right, it's either a headbutt, a shieldbreak, or a bair combo. none of which you really want.

2. upb - the SA is really good for going through a laser. you can try to shield this, but it'll poke, it'll also eat your spotdodge. luckily it doesn't do much damage, but it can put you in a bad position if you mess up. most good dks will be able to time the SA to consistently go through tilts/lasers. your dsmash will beat it if he starts up right next to you, but most of the time it'll clank, if this was easier to follow up on, it'd be his best approach

3. walking - pretty much it, walk up, shield, and downb/high angled ftilt from a safe distance, it's hard for rob to get around this, as his main way around down b are projectiles (cover that in a bit) and approaching dk (where dk's ftilt wins, you don't really wanna approach dk, not without a glide toss). getting hit by the downb is 14%, and it sets you up for juggles, which dk does pretty well, especially against people like rob and snake. a ftilt is 12%, followed by a jab combo/downb into juggles.

but if they're tricky, they have this 4th way.
4. glide toss - the running joke is, if cbk gets the top, it's over. but pretty much, dk's glide toss is ridiculous. he goes about half the distance of fd, and can do any attack out of it (not fun for other people). if he grabs the top, it's like a coupon for one free approach, and he can control it pretty well if he's used to it (not many matchups where he has items though)

alright, what each character has in the matchup

DK
- his tilts out space/prioritize yours, this can put you into a bad position, because they are faster than your projectiles. downb/dtilt will go under most of your moves
- he can get an easy 50% juggle off
- he kills you pretty early (low 70 to high 80 with punch, usmash and fsmash depending on where you got hit
- he has accessible SA, it makes attacking him pretty dangerous
- he lives forever, srsly, a2 will down play it, but dk also has a momentum cancel that works just as quick as gdubs, this on top of him being the all around heaviest character, expect him to live anywhere from 140-180 depending on what happens in the match


R.O.B.
- he can camp the hell out of you
- he can continously camp the hell out of you
- dk can't screw up with his ko moves, otherwise rob gets a long stock
- he can camp even more
- he can dthrow into uairs for pretty good damage (30-50)
- he's still camping


on the topic of gimping, we can both technically gimp each other, in that, if dk lands a fair, you die, and rob can land moves through dk's upb until he screws up. so it's both technically possible for each character, but unlikely.nairs with the momentum break will kill in the late hundreds, maybe even 200 if it gets diminished. (@ a2, dk is occasionally allowed to move with the upb momentum break, gotta look into it more, but it's much better than you say it is)

it's pretty even, with maybe a slight dk advantage if he can get around the camp/isn't predictable with the gyro, i gotta get more matches with hugs and shadowrob to give you a number though.

also, bad news good news

bad news : gfsc headbutts works really well in this match

good news: at the moment, i've only heard of 2 dks pulling off a gfsc headbutt in a match, me and cbk, cbk has only done it once, and i can only do it from the left side, so you're pretty safe for now

EDIT: dk's upb has invincibility in the air, not SA

also, a properly landed aerial upb combos into the dsmash, since it has no landing lag, and dsmash comes out frame 10. not sure on grounded.

I also gotta play with more ledge campy robs, cause dk does really well against people on the ledge (let the mk plank), and rob's really good on the ledge. and a2, don't even try mentioning gdubs, we can dsmash stage spike and fsmash that stuff, i just didn't know you could do it

DOUBLE EDIT: We're going to cp either japes or brinstar in this (we got the edge on japes, i'm 100% on this, we can go under the stage to get around your camp, we live to ******** %'s, and ko with grabs), and platform stages work really well for us, fd is probably going to be your best bet, cause dk can do some dumb usmash set ups with platforms, and ours kills 20% before yours (on mario, probably like 30-60 if you factor in weight and good DI/our momentum brake)

EDIT: for the dk board, use uthrow on rob, he's easy to juggle, and uthrow sets it up right

@ omni, i can right up a whole guide later if you want me too, but from the sound of it, he just got inside your spacing and reas most of your moves. i think he just out did you guys

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Here's my opinion/experience:

DK 60:40 GaW
DK 40:60 Marth
DK 50:50 ROB

I never really faced a good Falco so I can't really say anything about that matchup... I think it's about even though, but I don't know.


And Zamus is so easy with DK lol. He kills her at about 80 % or less.
I'd say it's 60:40 or maybe even 65:35... or maybe I'm just too good XD

Why do you think Marth hs the advantage. He dies earlier than Zamus and has less range overall. He isn't much faster either and clearly not too fast for DK.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

6-4 vs gdubs
6-4 vs marth
5-5 vs rob
45-55 vs falco

sound good for those?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Marth has a better forward approach, and a better defensive game than both ZSS and DK. He doesn't have as severe of blind spots as DK either.

The matchup however is probably very close though since while Marth can't be shut down most of the time, he isn't perfect at being able to shut stuff down either especially since none of his KO moves are safe.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

DK has a massive KO-power/weigth advantage. Both Marth and DK can juggle pretty well but 30% aren't as bad for DK as for Marth. If Marth is in a bad position the DK Punch KOs him way below 100%. Marth needs to deal good amounts more dmg than DK does and DK still has a decent range advantage.
Marth only wins speed and not even to a big extent. DK is pretty fast. Some quick Dtilt -> Jabs mixed up with ftilts will give Marth troubles with spacing.

DK might have a blind spot below and in front of him (in the air) but he never needs to expose it. The only moves he needs in the air are bair (for awesomenes) and uair for juggle traps but none of them expose his blind spots. I think it's fair to give DK the advantage in this match-up.

@bigfoot

I think ROB has a small advantage over DK. Uair juggle works too well vs DK - it deals ~20% and ROB lives veeeeeery long. He has better range than you think, especially with his ftilt.

I think it's 45/55 for ROB