Matchup Thread: WHAT TIME IS IT?

[Luigi player]

Well Marth is good vs DK... from my experience at least.

The only Marths I've faced were online though... nobody plays Marth here.


I got 0-death'd from a Marth online, because I couldn'd get out of the "combo", because of lag...


Well and DK extends his hurtbox with his attacks and Marth doesn't, that means Marth will win if both attack...

Marths attacks are really fast and DK can't really do his strong attacks against him, because of Marths counter. So to do them is always risky and means it is hard to KO him.

If you also once get hit from Marth you'll face his direction which means no bair anymore and you have to try to get back on the ground which is always a really though thing, especially against Marth who can fair all the time. DK also can't do **** in that situation.

He can only do:

Fair, airdodge or nair.

Fair is too slow. Marth could evade it and fsmash you if you land (or he hits you in the air in your lag) or just counter it.

Airdodge, well, this is hard to time and since Marths fair is so fast he will probably be able to hit you anyway. Either before you airdodge or in the lag that you have after the airdodge. If you land on the ground there's also those 2 frames where you can be hit while landing.
He could also get below and upsmash you if he's quick enough.

Nairs range is too bad to be anything useful against a Marth who knows how to space a fair well.


This means Marth will be able to hit you again which puts you back in this situation AGAIN.


Gimping Marth is also really hard, because he always recovers from below. Maybe you could edgehog him and dsmash his landing lag from the upB... but I think that is too slow... the only thing you could do would be jumping up and nair him...

 

[itsthebigfoot]

Well and DK extends his hurtbox with his attacks and Marth doesn't, that means Marth will win if both attack...

Marths attacks are really fast and DK can't really do his strong attacks against him, because of Marths counter. So to do them is always risky and means it is hard to KO him.

dk's extended hurt box only lasts long enough to matter on his dsmash and maybe his punch, and only if you whiff, if it extends with the hitbox, the priority makes it clank with all disjointed hitboxes anyway. not to mention that bair is more disjointed than marths fair, which gives you the edge in the air.

now, marths attacks are slightly faster than dk's. but you have a range advantage on him, so if you space well, and mix in downbs (helps a lot vs his sideb), you should be fine, dtilt works better than ftilt in this match, just because it is as fast as marths tilts

also, counter is really dumb in this matchup. I've had marths try it on me, but really, just delay the charge on your smashes, cause theres some nasty cooldown on the counter, meaning if they try it, you get a nice charged fsmash

If you also once get hit from Marth you'll face his direction which means no bair anymore and you have to try to get back on the ground which is always a really though thing, especially against Marth who can fair all the time. DK also can't do **** in that situation.

He can only do:

Fair, airdodge or nair.

Fair is too slow. Marth could evade it and fsmash you if you land (or he hits you in the air in your lag) or just counter it.

Airdodge, well, this is hard to time and since Marths fair is so fast he will probably be able to hit you anyway. Either before you airdodge or in the lag that you have after the airdodge. If you land on the ground there's also those 2 frames where you can be hit while landing.
He could also get below and upsmash you if he's quick enough.

Nairs range is too bad to be anything useful against a Marth who knows how to space a fair well.


This means Marth will be able to hit you again which puts you back in this situation AGAIN.

don't get hit in the air? you bair out ranges his fair, so you should be getting hit more on the ground/oos. also, fair sometimes combos into itself, but it doesn't juggle, you can land pretty easy. upb works too

Gimping Marth is also really hard, because he always recovers from below. Maybe you could edgehog him and dsmash his landing lag from the upB... but I think that is too slow... the only thing you could do would be jumping up and nair him...

upb ledge stall does work, his recovery isn't that good, you can cargo - jump off - dthrow and it'll kill after 80, 50 if he doesn't wiggle

 

[A2ZOMG]

no, marth isn't better than dk defensively, dk's tilts are high priority walls.

Marth has better out of shield options, better pokes (D-tilt's frame advantage is only -7, which is the same time it takes to let down the shield), and a counterattack. He also defends better in the air due to having many more options by far.

DK's tilts do not have high priority. They have high range. If someone hits your hand however (Marth's Dancing Blade or Up-B out of shield could probably do this easily), you will get hurt.

 

[mikeHAZE]

dk

has

the

advantage

against

marth


Ask BoA.

Ask Dannykat.



iono about east coast.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Somebody told me to come into this thread.

But I see no point as I don't really care about the match-up and nothing has changed the match-up. It's just opinions at this point.

 

[mikeHAZE]

coooooooooooooool

 

[Ragnar0k]

Spoilers: DK>Marth.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Easily one of the most debatable match-ups in the game and I disagree.

But......

It's w/e ma dude.

 

[mikeHAZE]

stop dodging and just say what you want to say, it's annoying.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Do you have a problem?

And I said what I think. It's very debatable.

 

[Ripple]

spoiler: mikeHaze>Emblem Lord

and emblem I think haze wanted you to say a number not just "its debatable" which is true for a lot of matches

 

[mikeHAZE]

nah not a problem, just nobody cares if you think it's debatable, they want to know what you think of the matchup.


aka get to the point and stop beating around the bush.

or dont post.


edit: please

 

[Emblem Lord]

I know what he meant. I just didn't care. I will get to why I didn't care momentarily.

Also Ripple...wtf? Trying to be cute with that spoiler eh? Not that it matters.

Your board has already called it as DK's advantage no? (This is why I didn't care)

I don't like debating over pointless things.

If I thought my input actually mattered I would give it. But this board is one of the few intelligent ones and I trust you can come to an informed opinion about a match-up.

But..since you seem to desire it so much I will tell you what I honestly think.

I..don't know. This..is the only match in the game where I am honestly stumped. I don't know who to give the nod too or if it's even or not. Hence..why I said that it was debatable.

 

[Ragnar0k]

Why would you call out Ripple when I did it before him?

 

[mikeHAZE]

true, it is pointless


i just didn't see a point to your post either lmao.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Ragnorok: Ripple more or less insulted me. Although I can't say in what context. In terms of being awesome then he is either just unaware of how god like I am or he just has a thing for MikeHaze. In terms of skill I'll give the nod to him cuz I don't give a **** about being good at Brawl lol.

If he was just trying to get me to post again well then mission accomplished.

Either way it was all in good fun, hence why I said it did not matter.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

^ mikehaze got the bonus points because he's magical

seriously, type his name in a random thread and he'll find it, its like playing fetch with self recognition

so dk adv?

 

[Ripple]

^ mikehaze got the bonus points because he's magical

seriously, type his name in a random thread and he'll find it, its like playing fetch with self recognition

so dk adv?

dang you beat me to it. mikehaze is a genie. genie>non genie

 

[Emblem Lord]

Sure. You guys can put it down as dk's advantage.


If you want inaccurate match-up data.


BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

*teleports out of thread.

 

[Ripple]

Sure. You guys can put it down as dk's advantage.


If you want inaccurate match-up data.


BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

*teleports out of thread.

HOLY....., emblem lord is either abra from pokemon or he's night crawler, either way, he is now greater than the genie

END OF DISCUSSION!

 

[itsthebigfoot]

nah, genies can bail out too, and bring people back.

so dk adv on marth

gdubs is still up in the air, between neutral and gdubs adv.

falco is looking like 45-55 falco

rob = 50-50?

if you disagree post reasons before i update please


by the way, for the first time in forever, a mod besides samurai panda came to this board.

to give me an infraction for the a2 thread

 

[Ripple]

nah, genies can bail out too, and bring people back.

so dk adv on marth

gdubs is still up in the air, between neutral and gdubs adv.

falco is looking like 45-55 falco

rob = 50-50?

if you disagree post reasons before i update please


by the way, for the first time in forever, a mod besides samurai panda came to this board.

to give me an infraction for the a2 thread

I'd say 55-45 for G dubs just because he can mix up attacking us so much from juggling IF he gets us in the air. not the case for us.

and the mod thing is very very sad, but true. its the first time a non maining DK mod has came to the DK forum to actually take care of a problem or even post for that fact. (excluding mikeh illinialex, and emblem because they were invited just recently to boot)

 

[Nokonoko]

Incidentally, Emblem Lord, you may be aware of this already, but the Japanese in your sig is a little off.

Marth doesn’t say “Everyone, fill me up!” (みな充っていてくれ！)

It’s more like “Keep your eyes on me!” or “Check me out, y’all!” (みな見ていてくれ！)

/spam

 

[Emblem Lord]

Yeah, I know. Ankoku screwed up on that one. He is supposed to be talking to his army more or less. Kinda the same thing when Ike says I fight for my friends, but not as lame.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

^ see, not a teleporting ninja

tru fax


dk can juggle decently, uair/usmash can go through the key

 

[Sudai]

Some people search for their names which probably explains why certain people tend to pop up when you say their name.

I know I do it cause I like to know when people are talking about me in case I need to defend my case.

 

[ook]

My name is one letter too short to search

I hate that, a lot of other sites have the 4-letter minimum too. :embarrass

 

[mikeHAZE]

put a period at the end


learntoforum

 

[ook]

Dang, guess no one is talking about me at the end of their sentences.

 

[A2ZOMG]

dk can juggle decently, uair/usmash can go through the key

Yeah, but DK doesn't have any good techniques that can escape G&W's juggling. G&W ALWAYS has a technique that can beat anything DK can do 100% of the time. If G&W wants to be safe from a potential attack, U-air will push DK away from range. N-air is too fast and hard to air dodge. Up-B has invincibility frames and is also incredibly useful for juggling.

Also, DK isn't disjointed on either Up-smash or U-air, meaning if he mispaces the slightest, he gets hit because he extends his hurtbox while U-smashing and U-airing. If you get hit, you go above G&W, where he gets to continue to harass you.

Charge release Up-smash means G&W doesn't have any trouble KOing DK. All G&W has to do to KO DK is juggle him to about 90% (possibly less), read where he is going to land, charge an Up-smash, and release. It's perfectly safe if DK doesn't have a Giant Punch fully charged (as it WILL outprioritze any attacks and it will punish any air dodges as long as the G&W doesn't have horrible timing), and he won't always have one charged if he's being juggled.

In short, G&W's juggling on DK is better than DK's juggling on G&W. G&W is also better at starting up his juggling.

You might actually want to consider battlefield over Final Destination against G&W for the mere fact that it will give you an extra save against his charge release Up-smash in the name of platforms.

 

[Sudai]

Can try other things like exclamation points and question marks. : )

Oh, and you can find something now when you search "ook."

:D

 

[Emblem Lord]

Changed my mind guys.

I'm bored.

Marth forums ain't here, so without any back up you guys MIGHT have a shot at beating me in this debate.

The keyword being "might".

hahah.

Now hit me with every thing you have in regards to why you guys think DK beats Marth 60/40.

Here is some motivation for you.

This match is even.

Let the fun begin.

 

[Ragnar0k]

put an * at the end.

And A2 stop trolling, 100% of the time is a blatant lie.

 

[i1337]

its even, lol. not 60-40 for dk. although ive never really had a problem with the matchup, and marth is fun to play against lol.

 

[A2ZOMG]

You have an issue with the fact I use 100% Ragnarok? My my, you're so shallow.

The point is DK isn't punishing G&W for juggling anytime soon, and he's definitely not getting back to the ground easily once G&W is juggling him. As long as G&W has a slightest bit of knowledge as how to follow up, he always has an option to poke DK right up the butt and keep his game going. You're crazy as **** if you somehow are trying to tell me that DK being above G&W isn't seriously hazardous for his health.

DK might have stupid juggling techniques on G&W, but they aren't as safe, and they don't work nearly as reliably.

G&W's ability to juggle doesn't just stop at dealing a lot of damage to DK (and pretty much any character above him). It ends with a bloody KO. A good G&W can, and will read where you are about to land and charge an Up-smash. This will KO you very reliably at around 90% or so. The best part is DK *cannot* avoid it if G&W correctly anticipates where he lands. Whether he tries to attack or air dodge, it's not hard at all for G&W to time the charge release on his Up-smash so that it hits DK. It will outprioritize any attacks above him, or it will hit DK out of his landing animation in which he has no invincibility frames.

 

[Ripple]

You have an issue with the fact I use 100% Ragnarok? My my, you're so shallow.

The point is DK isn't punishing G&W for juggling anytime soon, and he's definitely not getting back to the ground easily once G&W is juggling him. As long as G&W has a slightest bit of knowledge as how to follow up, he always has an option to poke DK right up the butt and keep his game going. You're crazy as **** if you somehow are trying to tell me that DK being above G&W isn't seriously hazardous for his health.

DK might have stupid juggling techniques on G&W, but they aren't as safe, and they don't work nearly as reliably.

G&W's ability to juggle doesn't just stop at dealing a lot of damage to DK (and pretty much any character above him). It ends with a bloody KO. A good G&W can, and will read where you are about to land and charge an Up-smash. This will KO you very reliably at around 90% or so. The best part is DK *cannot* avoid it if G&W correctly anticipates where he lands. Whether he tries to attack or air dodge, it's not hard at all for G&W to time the charge release on his Up-smash so that it hits DK. It will outprioritize any attacks above him, or it will hit DK out of his landing animation in which he has no invincibility frames.

first off if DK is being juggled it will never keep going to 90% to an up smash. why would you even want to try and juggle DK at that high %? answer: you wouldn't

second off you say that G&W 's up smash will kill us at 90% and maybe D smash too but guess what... DK has 4 moves that kill you even earlier than that . F smash, SA and 9 punch, Dsmash, and Up smash all can kill you in the 70%-80% range.
a good G&W *can not* avoid these if we predict what you will do correctly. (FYI that argument doesn't work at all, I'm using it to show how stupid it is)


and as long as a DK has the slightest bit of knowledge about G&W he will Punch through every approach G&W makes

 

[itsthebigfoot]

Yeah, but DK doesn't have any good techniques that can escape G&W's juggling. G&W ALWAYS has a technique that can beat anything DK can do 100% of the time. If G&W wants to be safe from a potential attack, U-air will push DK away from range. N-air is too fast and hard to air dodge. Up-B has invincibility frames and is also incredibly useful for juggling.

Also, DK isn't disjointed on either Up-smash or U-air, meaning if he mispaces the slightest, he gets hit because he extends his hurtbox while U-smashing and U-airing. If you get hit, you go above G&W, where he gets to continue to harass you.

Charge release Up-smash means G&W doesn't have any trouble KOing DK. All G&W has to do to KO DK is juggle him to about 90% (possibly less), read where he is going to land, charge an Up-smash, and release. It's perfectly safe if DK doesn't have a Giant Punch fully charged (as it WILL outprioritze any attacks and it will punish any air dodges as long as the G&W doesn't have horrible timing), and he won't always have one charged if he's being juggled.

In short, G&W's juggling on DK is better than DK's juggling on G&W. G&W is also better at starting up his juggling.

You might actually want to consider battlefield over Final Destination against G&W for the mere fact that it will give you an extra save against his charge release Up-smash in the name of platforms.

let me get this straight, you believe that the game and watch should always be perfectly spaced to avoid any and all punishment, but then brush off dk's juggles because it takes decent spacing and timing (not even that hard).

you also think that while dk's quick ko moves with gigantic range are completely unlandable against a decent opponent, game and watch will be able to juggle and land a CHARGED usmash with no problem whatsoever

gdubs is also apparently better at starting juggles, because you said so, even though dk has uthrow, utilt (which combos out of bair and has huge range and priority), and downb (entirely disjointed, huge range, punishes anything), compared to gdubs's uthrow, and nair.

and you wonder why people ignore you.

your just making stuff up now, and you sound REALLY desperate to win this argument, even though you're not even close to right

EDIT: marth matchup

DK
- range
- priority
- downb effectively shuts down all non aerial pokes
- bair/ftilt shuts down all aerials
- stocks last about 70% longer for dk, probably more with his momentum brake (by about 10-15%, maybe 20-30)
- 60% grab death

Marth
- speed
- sideb forces dk to keep you at a distance
- can gimp dk
- upb oos is still nasty

basically it's a game of marth trying to get inside for sideb, while dk tries to keep him outside with bairs, downb, and high angled ftilts. when one character succeeds they do about the same amount of damage as the other. the difference being marth has to get roughly twice the damage that dk has to get to ko.

gimping dk involves countering his recovery (only time you should use counter unless you have a death wish) until you can land a dair.

the matchup is in dk's favor if he can space well

 

[Steel]

Changed my mind guys.

I'm bored.

Marth forums ain't here, so without any back up you guys MIGHT have a shot at beating me in this debate.

The keyword being "might".

hahah.

Now hit me with every thing you have in regards to why you guys think DK beats Marth 60/40.

Here is some motivation for you.

This match is even.

Let the fun begin.

found u

when you aren't posting in marth boards there MUST be a debate somewhere.

*Kneels down and cleans his sword, ready for battle

 

[itsthebigfoot]

^ not going to help, i gots tru fax on my side

 

[Emblem Lord]

****. I been found out.

Anyway, Marth has DK in punishment game and better rushdown. DK wins in spacing. But if Marth blocks anything that's not down b, fully spaced d-tilt or retreating Bair it gets punished. And Marth is overall safer. These things mitigate DK's strengths somewhat to even up the match.

Marth's Nair contends with angles tilts and Bair as well. It's two quick consecutive hitboxes that's let Marth penetrate safely. It can beat DK's Bair and his angled tilts. It's also a solid approach when DK is on the ground due to his height although DK can crouch to make things tougher on Marth.

Marth is also better in juggle situations. He is better at keeping DK in that position then vice versa and better at getting out due to his mobility. DK is a huge target and it's very hard to get out of juggle situations vs Marth. DK is good at them too and Marth is bad at getting out of them as well. But Marth is beastly at them so I gotta give him the nod here.

Offstage Marth does better. DK off the stage is either a kill or alot of free damage and then DK is in a bad spot usually in the air or forced on stage with his up b and Marth can punish his lag.

DK has power and range. It's that simple. He can kill Marth early too and get mean gimps with cargo to down throw.

The main thing though is that if Marth gets a hit in he can gain train wreck momentum and take control of the match. DK's speed ad mobility doesn't really let him do that. He has to keep Marth out. Which has the tools to do so. But Marth has the tools to get in and punish.

They seem really well matched. One has the power, range and survivability, but isn't as safe. The other is safer with better punishment, and is faster overall, but lacks the outright killing power. Both are good at gimping, but I'll give Marth the nod on that.