Matchup Thread: WHAT TIME IS IT?

[DMG]

Oh and I just found out DK can hit GaW on the edge with a fsmash too. Now let's see how you punish that, lol. You can't nair it if DK spaces it correctly, they would only trade hits (~3 % for DK and ~20 % for GaW).

Uh... Sweetspotted Upb? Invincibility frames and a Nair/Fair while he is invincible? There, I busted it.

 

[Luigi player]

Yeah, and see, those two examples are pretty stupid. If G&W is in the position where DK could SUPPOSEDLY punish G&W like that for doing a fastfalled B-air, he'd have to be pretty close to G&W in the first place BEFORE G&W actually did this and keep in mind, DK is not the only one capable of adapting to different situations, and you probably wouldn't consider this option in the first place from a position like that.

While we were talking about the bair the situation is: GaW tries to space bairs. Or not...? Which means DK could just follow him if GaW moves away with full jump bairs like DMG said. And DKs ground speed as much better than GaWs air speed. That means DK could close up quickly. And I doubt a GaW will use those bairs if DK isn't even in reach...

Uh... Sweetspotted Upb? Invincibility frames and a Nair/Fair while he is invincible? There, I busted it.

****... but DKs fsmash doesn't have THAT much afterlag. =P So as you could do your attack DK could already shield it.

 

[A2ZOMG]

HAHAHAHAHA.

F-smash is garbage against ledgecamping.

Bigfoot tried F-smashing me while I edgecamped and failed miserably. I N-aired his arm THROUGH THE STAGE (where the F-smash can't reach G&W by the way).

G&W will space B-airs as long as he is a certain distance away from DK. There is a certain distance indeed where DK cannot punish retreating B-air because he doesn't have the range to get past it.

When G&W is closer, he will Jab, D-tilt, or grab usually if he's on the ground. Or even Up-B out of shield.

 

[Luigi player]

HAHAHAHAHA.

F-smash is garbage against ledgecamping.

Bigfoot tried F-smashing me while I edgecamped and failed miserably. I N-aired his arm THROUGH THE STAGE (where the F-smash can't reach G&W by the way).

lol, that's crazy, but not unbeatable. He'll bait you in doing the nair again and hit you with a dair =P it's not like DK always does the same things. DK could trick GaW and you can't say that's impossible.

When G&W is closer, he will Jab, D-tilt, or grab usually if he's on the ground. Or even Up-B out of shield.

GaW should never be able to hit DK with an upB OoS unless the DK isn't spacing correctly or tried to grab you (or tried to do a grounded upB).
DKs ftilt > GaWs jab.
DKs fsmash > GaWs dtilt.

 

[A2ZOMG]

lol, that's crazy, but not unbeatable. He'll bait you in doing the nair again and hit you with a dair =P it's not like DK always does the same things. DK could trick GaW and you can't say that's impossible.

They're both too slow. When I edgecamp, I can always react to these two attacks and stay safe. As long as G&W is playing conservatively on the ledge, he will either be in invincibility frames, or he will he sweetspotting the ledge with an Up-B which you can't hit him out of.

Yeah, Up-B out of shield doesn't usually hit on the ground, but it's safe 95% of the time.

G&W's D-tilt only gets hit by F-smash if he spams it in the range where he should be retreating with B-air.

You should actually be jabbing if you think G&W is going to D-tilt. It outspeeds his D-tilt by 1 frame.

 

[Luigi player]

They're both too slow. When I edgecamp, I can always react to these two attacks and stay safe. As long as G&W is playing conservatively on the ledge, he will either be in invincibility frames, or he will he sweetspotting the ledge with an Up-B which you can't hit him out of.

Yeah, Up-B out of shield doesn't usually hit on the ground, but it's safe 95% of the time.

How about DK just edgehogs you while you try to upB to the edge?

The DK could also mindgame you...

If you're edgecamping all the time you'll need to fall down and jump up again.

The DK could stand in fsmash range (where you can't hit him unless you jump on the stage) and just waits until you make a mistake...

You'll always fall down, double jump, fall down, double jump,... DK just stands there and does nothing.

Then suddenly when you're not expecting it he'll fsmash you while your invincibility frames are gone already (because it got boring for you to always jump up and fall down immediately and the enemy isn't doing anything anyway).

You could also make a mistake at edgecamping and SD. This is always possible. GaWs upB goes forward at the start which means you might missspace it or DK edgehogs you.


There are so many possibilities what DK could do including doing nothing, lol.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Well, now G&W makes it back on stage...

You could possibly get him with a ledge attack under 100% if you're lucky...but G&W's Up-B is pretty low lag. And if he forces you to ledge attack (or whatever) early by midair jumping and N-airing, you won't be hogging the ledge the next time he Up-Bs.

Ultimately dealing with G&W on the ledge, you have to REALLY trick him or watch for a rare moment where he seriously messes up, otherwise he's completely safe. =/

 

[Luigi player]

Well, now G&W makes it back on stage...

You could possibly get him with a ledge attack under 100% if you're lucky...but G&W's Up-B is pretty low lag. And if he forces you to ledge attack (or whatever) early by midair jumping and N-airing, you won't be hogging the ledge the next time he Up-Bs.

Ultimately dealing with G&W on the ledge, you have to REALLY trick him or watch for a rare moment where he seriously messes up, otherwise he's completely safe. =/

If DK is on the ledge he can also fast fall and upB stall a bit if you try to hit him with a nair. We can play the same game with switched places too you know.

And nobody is completely save if he's on the ledge. Not even MK.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Just saying, G&W is a better edgestaller than MK.

 

[DMG]

G&W can Uair you on the edge, that does force you to do something or you go *poof* upwards. He can use the boost from Upb and also make use of the invincibility frames it has, he can use Dtilt or Dash attack which hits below the stage and can hit DK out of his Upb edge camping.

 

[Luigi player]

G&W can Uair you on the edge, that does force you to do something or you go *poof* upwards. He can use the boost from Upb and also make use of the invincibility frames it has, he can use Dtilt or Dash attack which hits below the stage and can hit DK out of his Upb edge camping.

I didn't really mean edge camping with DK. I only meant that DK can avoid some attacks from GaW if he's on the ledge. If you try something else he could still ledgeattack or other things I already said.

 

[DMG]

I didn't really mean edge camping with DK. I only meant that DK can avoid some attacks from GaW if he's on the ledge. If you try something else he could still ledgeattack or other things I already said.

Ah Carry on then lol.

 

[Donkey Bong]

G&W's up b is too hard to edgeguard against
its got invincibility, it will boost you up like his uair and it goes super high
hes also got a really effective ledgegame.... there is no way DK wins out playing ledgegames against G&W

 

[itsthebigfoot]

Both characters have the tools to do a number on one another. Marth has to approach and he has the tools to do so effectively. DK has to keep him out and he has the tools to do so effectively.

For an angled f-tilt to beat Marth's Nair, he would need to be actively using it as an approach. If he throws it out while going forward then pulls back it allows him to advance fairly safely.

DK's hand would have to hit Marth's body. If DK's hand hits Marth's sword then nothing happens to Marth but DK gets hurt. You aren't beating the Nair so much as spacing correctly to hit Marth's body. In regards to the attacks themselves the Nair will win when properly spaced.

It IS possible that you are better then Bardull and the other Marth's you played. Just saying.

And as far as I know only DK's spaced Bair, D-tilt and down b is safe. DK has to play a much tighter spacing game then Marth does though since he is slower.

But as I said...they both have the tools to do well. DK lives longer but Marth being a better punisher with greater mobility means something. It means he will be getting in damage more consistently.

And yeah DK has tricks to keep him safe when he gets knocked off. So does Marth. But I would never act like being off the ledge isn't a dangerous thing for Marth. And it's even more dangerous for DK. A footstool is all it would take really and he is gone. Marth has a fairly easy time covering DK's options when he is off the stage due to his aerial prowess. DK doesn't have it that easy when Marth is knocked off.

Both characters pros cancel each other out which makes this a very even match.

for the nair to beat the ftilt, you would have to aim for where the ftilt would be. when nair is used as an approach, aimed to hit dk himself, the ftilt works.

dk's safe moves are downb, upb, bair and dtilt, also grabs if you count that, we use grabs a lot, cause our standing grab has d3's range (just 2 frames slower). upb pokes shield.

as for punishment, marth can punish better oos, but dk can punish you during your attack, punch's SA works quite well, it's either a ko or 30%

btw, bardull's the only marth that has beaten me, it was back when he was one of the top players out here, before he started slipping, i beat mike and all the other marths i've run into

Marth's speed = dk's ability to camp, so they cancel out

marth's punishment game < a 70% difference in stocks, you have to admit that a better upb oos is not as good as a stock that lasts twice as long as yours (dk can still punish quite well, just not on par with marth and bowser)

so, dk's ko game is = marths speed and punishment, but

dk's ko game + camp game is > marths speed and punishment.

you've been counting speed twice, once for getting around camp, and once for getting around ko

sorry for the equations, just got out of a math final

DK pounds his hands, extending his hurtbox. Again, you are incorrect. The move is not "entirely disjointed".

Entirely = 100%

dk's hands don't have the hitboxes, it is disjointed. dk's hands stay in the hurtbox for the rest of dk's body too. it is disjointed, l2 fact check

also, grenades and nikita can be used in the air, they aren't part of snakes grounded set of moves.

also, the 11 frames is only when they're on the ground, in the air = still frame 10, and dk wins on the ground.

Bigfoot tried F-smashing me while I edgecamped and failed miserably. I N-aired his arm THROUGH THE STAGE (where the F-smash can't reach G&W by the way).

the first time i tried it, online too. you seem to have a problem recognizing that online =/= competitive. properly spaced you can hit gdubs out of the nair. the fsmash is spaced was to hit you on get up from the ledge, not to hit a ledge camper.

if you want to count online I 2 stocked and jv 3 stocked insomniak, who you consider a pro gdubs

if the dk got hit he wasn't spacing properly

also, @ people above, dk doesn't have to approach gdubs on the ledge, and fsmash will hit them off if they're ledge camping nairs and not just upb stalling the match. (upb ledge camping leaves him in invincibility frames the whole time and is therefore stalling the matchup out and qualification enough for a DQ)

 

[Emblem Lord]

I wasn't just referring to up b out of shield but shield drop to DB which can put DK in the air or on the ledge. It's overall easier for Marth to put DK in those bad situations then vice versa.

Also could you guys stop insulting each other? It's childish.

I say that Marth's punishment and ability to put DK in those bad situations consistently with less effort means he will be dealing damage more consistently which will even out the KO advantage that DK has.

Marth dies sooner but builds damage faster.

DK dies later but his damage dealing isn't as good or as consistent.

 

[TheNix]

Talking about these theoretical scenarios is fine and good but it doesn't mean much without matchup experience.

I simply think the DK vs Marth matchup is slightly in DK's favor because I've played the matchup a thousand times, and I consistently end up in advantageous positions. Marth's superior damage-dealing capabilities somewhat makes up for the weight/power difference, but it's not quite enough, in my experience. And yes, my opponent is just as good as I am.

I'm not commenting on the (somewhat ridiculous) G&W debate because I don't have any experience with the matchup.

 

[Mr.Victory07]

Falco time?

I'm thinking 6-4 Falco, because of combination of laser, CG, and Dk's large difficulty in approaching, especially from the the air. Phantasm is difficult to bair, and spikes you so it's kind of dangerous to try to eguard and vice-versa. DK kills earlier, but it's not such a radical difference as Falco's f-smash is a beast. And once Falco kills you, you can depend on a quick 40% from CG before you can KO, alwayts leaving him in an advantageous position

 

[itsthebigfoot]

yeah, nix just said what i was about to say.

theoretical situation thats not really theoretical because it has happened several times.

start of the match, dk wins the first encounter, does ~40 %, next time marth gets in, does ~50%, dk gets the next one, does ~30, marth wins the next two , does ~ 70, dk kos marth. marth wins the next one, does ~40% more, dk wins the next one, does ~40%, marth kos dk.

basically dk's natural stock advantage, and that he can deal close to as much damage at lower percents (40% bair combos that put marth in a bad position), allow him to get slight leads on marth, which add up. the marth has to win more situations from a neutral state to ko, and dk is on par with marth in that neutral state. dk has a range edge, but marth can get inside and punish due to his speed. getting in-wise is pretty even, dk just has a stock advantage, especially with the upb brake.

I'll do falco in a bit, econ final soon

 

[CBK]

That is the only matchup in the game I think is like 50 50 for Dk. But only if you have an exceptional Marth such as DannyKat or Drago behind the controller.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

^ according to mike, dannykat says dk's got the edge.

 

[CBK]

Well it has been a while since I played danny...maybe I've gotten better it's just iffy at best you know. Marth is such a situational character.

 

[Donkey Bong]

my friend Angel has been using a new variation on the falco chaingrab to spike which so far i havent found a way to avoid other than not getting grabbed (which i find inevitable, its just a question of how much damage i do to him before he grabs me) which i think makes the matchup significantly harder for DK

if the opponent fails to land the chain to spike its an even matchup, but if it goes the way its supposed to i'm definitely going to call it a 65-35 in falco's favor.

 

[Ussi]

Chain to spike.. Can't you meteor cancel it with a jump and live?

 

[Donkey Bong]

what is meteor cancelling?

 

[itsthebigfoot]

it means you can recover before the spike ko's you. just mash jump right after the spike, thenupb, thespike will never kill

 

[crifer]

meteor canceling isn´t in brawl, only in melee

 

[DMG]

meteor canceling isn´t in brawl, only in melee

Actually it is in Brawl, I am pretty sure every spike/Meteor Smash allows you to cancel it at a specific point by jumping or using Upb.

 

[Nokonoko]

Actually, in Brawl, you can’t mash jump anymore because each time you press it too early, it ignores the input for a while (kinda like teching in Melee, yeah?).

So the most reliable way to meteor cancel ASAP is to mash upB, but that’s not a good idea for DK for obvious reasons …

But I did hear that tap jumping is exempt from this. So if you have tap jump on, smash up repeatedly ftw. Otherwise you’re dead at higher damage.

 

[highandmightyjoe]

Yeah, DK doesn't like geting spiked.

Speaking of spikes I spiked my roommate with DKs over 100% ledge attack the other day. I have a replay saved and I tried rewatching it to see how it happened. I think it actually just stage spiked him, but I can't tell. It killed Tink at 8% though. I laughed.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

I laughed.

that's the proper response

 

[Ragnar0k]

G&W's ledge camping means nothing. DK can just walk away and charge a punch.

 

[Neb]

G&W's ledge camping means nothing. DK can just walk away and charge a punch.

Once you experience ledge camping from an intelligent G&W player, then you can say something.
Otherwise your making yourself look stupid, sorta like you just did.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

neb, we can still fsmash/dsmash it with proper spacing and it'll kill you

 

[Neb]

neb, we can still fsmash/dsmash it with proper spacing and it'll kill you

Smart G&W's will not jump into the ****, if he's camping on the ledge, he'll patiently pick his strikes.
DK simply cannot hit G&W if he's taking advantage of his i-frames. Besides, no ones making him return or approach.

 

[Nokonoko]

So … you’re saying it’s stalling, then?

Legal.

 

[gantrain05]

So … you’re saying it’s stalling, then?

Legal.

stalling isn't legal....at least not around here, if a G&W did that ledge stall **** here he'd get Dq'd.

 

[Ragnar0k]

Once you experience ledge camping from an intelligent G&W player, then you can say something.
Otherwise your making yourself look stupid, sorta like you just did.

In case you didn't understand me, I meant that the DK player can just let you do useless things on the ledge. DK doesn't have to pressure you on the ledge, he could just walk to the other side of the stage and charge a punch for later. And if he doesn't pressure you and you keep doing it then it's stalling and illegal. Then you're just making yourself look stupid for getting DQ'd, and that's not very intelligent.

 

[Neb]

The only time G&W should be ledge camping is at high percentages, or when up a stock. This way he applies pressure without really doing anything. From the ledge he can set-up juggle traps or edgeguard scenarios, and proceed from there. Game & Watch's main objective is not to stall, and rack-up cheap numbers, its to safely produce an advantage, when at a disadvantage. This is playing smart, and in no way deserves a disqualification, unless abused for long periods of time.

But anyway, this match-up is best played defensively as a G&W player.

 

[Ragnar0k]

Touche Neb.

 

[cutter]

Ledgecamping =/= stalling