Matchup Thread: WHAT TIME IS IT?

[cutter]

let me get this straight, you believe that the game and watch should always be perfectly spaced to avoid any and all punishment, but then brush off dk's juggles because it takes decent spacing and timing (not even that hard).

Ok first off juggling really doesn't exist in Brawl like it did in Melee. Lack of any usuable hitstun + multiple airdodges means it's extremely easy to break out of many juggle attempts if you have good aerial mobility and/or a good Dair to bail yourself out. Oh yeah... there's also the whole floaty gravity thing.

you also think that while dk's quick ko moves with gigantic range are completely unlandable against a decent opponent, game and watch will be able to juggle and land a CHARGED usmash with no problem whatsoever

Frame data on DK kill moves:

Fsmash: 22
Usmash: 14
Dsmash: 11
Neutral B: 18
Side B (technically a setup move but leads to kills): 20

Compared to GW:

Fsmash: 17
Dsmash: 15
Usmash: 24
Fair: 10

GW's kill moves are not really that fast. It's actually tough to land kill moves with GW if your opponent knows what they're doing. I really don't know what your definition of "quick" is. The frame data speaks for itself.

gdubs is also apparently better at starting juggles, because you said so, even though dk has uthrow, utilt (which combos out of bair and has huge range and priority)

GW's Uair actually is a true juggler because it forces your opponent in the air making them have to airdodge out of it. Compare this to other juggles where characters can a lot of times escape with an attack from above. GW can also pop foes into the air with Nair/Utilt/Uthrow so that's kind of a moot point.

downb (entirely disjointed, huge range, punishes anything)

Ego much? You might want to check the vadility on that statement.

and you wonder why people ignore you.

I pretty much ignore both of you when you just do nothing but feud against each other. I was going to try and discuss other matchups against DK here but you and a2 keep butting heads... nothing new

your just making stuff up now, and you sound REALLY desperate to win this argument, even though you're not even close to right

I don't think that's the case. I do agree that A2ZOMG does tend to exaggerate things at times, but he's not stupid.

 

[Nokonoko]

Where’s CBK? He’d make a nice foil for A2ZOMG.

Also: lol at Youko swooping in to close Bigfoot’s thread. What consistent mod presence we have.

 

[A2ZOMG]

first off if DK is being juggled it will never keep going to 90% to an up smash. why would you even want to try and juggle DK at that high %? answer: you wouldn't

second off you say that G&W 's up smash will kill us at 90% and maybe D smash too but guess what... DK has 4 moves that kill you even earlier than that . F smash, SA and 9 punch, Dsmash, and Up smash all can kill you in the 70%-80% range.
a good G&W *can not* avoid these if we predict what you will do correctly. (FYI that argument doesn't work at all, I'm using it to show how stupid it is)


and as long as a DK has the slightest bit of knowledge about G&W he will Punch through every approach G&W makes

Punishing air dodges and lands with a KO move >>>>>> punishing approaches.

Approaches are much more difficult to capitalize on as opposed to air dodges and landing lag. There are more instances where characters need to land than ones where they need to approach. Also, there are more options for an opponent to position themselves while they are approaching as opposed to while they are trying to land from a juggle.

And see, G&W sets up his KO moves by simply JUGGLING you. It puts you above him, and DK is very bad at getting back to the ground. All G&W has to do is properly position himself where DK is going to land, charge an Up-smash, and release. It works because the charge release on the Up-smash is super fast.

There are no tricks or mindgames to landing this technique. Either G&W doesn't position himself right and DK DIs away from the Up-smash, or he does position himself correctly and it's a KO at a ridiculously low percent that DK can't afford.

In order for DK to land a F-smash, Giant Punch, Up-smash, or D-smash, he has to trick G&W (except in the case of bad spacing on a D-smash out of shield). Either he has to mindgame him into being hit by a headbutt (which is really slow. B-air -> headbutt is unsafe on block by about 40 frames). F-smash and U-smash are both easy to avoid by themselves. Giant Punch DOES have super armor, but it's also fairly slow and easy to block on reaction instead, in which case DK gets shieldgrabbed (and all it takes for G&W to start a juggle is either hit DK, or shieldgrab his hand and throw upwards).

DK however has ZERO ways of capitalizing on a well-timed charge release Up-smash as he's landing, UNLESS he has a Giant Punch charged. And it's not going to hit a good G&W, because he will be able to observe whether DK is doing an attack, or air dodging, and react to each accordingly.

G&W may be more limited in terms of KO options than DK (and I will point out, G&W does have to trick his opponent if he wants to land F-smashes or D-smashes), but the ones he does have are significantly better, and to add on that, he's better at dealing damage overall in this matchup. Most good G&W's will take you from 0 - 70 in a single round when they juggle correctly (this happens to me quite a few times whenever I use other characters against people who main G&W). It doesn't take much from there for G&W to restart some juggling and only next time focus on ending it with an Up-smash.

I should point out, I killed bigfoot at least twice with charge release Up-smashes in a match. ONLINE. Where it's significantly harder to time stuff like charge releases.

 

[Luigi player]

I killed bigfoot at least twice with charge release Up-smashes in a match. ONLINE. Where it's significantly harder to time stuff like charge releases.

I lol'd.

10onlines

 

[Sudai]

Landing charge releases is actually easier online because by the time the opponent sees you're charging, it's too late thanks to lag.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Shut up fools. We are talking about Marth vs DK now.

 

[cutter]

Where’s CBK? He’d make a nice foil for A2ZOMG.

Also: lol at Youko swooping in to close Bigfoot’s thread. What consistent mod presence we have.

Bigfoot broke the rules. Plain and simple. You cannot make threads about specific members.

lol @ EL. As long as bigfoot and a2zomg are in this thread DK/Marth will not be discussed well.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Shut up fools. We are talking about Marth vs DK now.

Go ahead.

I always wanted to know why you think it's even.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Did you read my last post?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Did you read my last post?

Ya I read it but I'm nut sure whattcha saying...Marth is safer despite having less range and survivability?

Doesn't make sense 2 me

 

[Emblem Lord]

Safer on block.

lrn2fightinggame.

Survivability is debatable, since Marth can deal out alot of damage if he takes control. More so then DK can. DK deals his damage in single strong hits and tries to keep Marth out. Once Marth gets in DK can expect to take quite a bit of damage. Upwards of 30% or more is to be expected.

 

[Mr.Victory07]

How exactly is Marth going to be dealing the 30%? dancing blade wont do that much...

And how is Marth a better juggler, dair i believe can clank or go through marths uair, and you can mixup with >B to air stall, and DK juggles marth just as well with a uair(unless of course counter)

And Marth doesnt completely destroy DK off stage. I aggree fair gives him problems, but DK has his own off stage fair to threaten with, and up-b goes through any untimed attempt to gimp

I'm still on the the 60-40 DK, because DK can kill Marth so much easier

 

[Sudai]

Aerials can't clank.

[/2cents]

 

[Emblem Lord]

Off stage Marth can counter to stuff up b if DK used his jump. Pretty much no way DK can deal with this.

Remember the momentum? Marth is fast so if he gets his hit in it's easy or him to keep pressure on. Since he is safer as well if DK gets his footing back Marth doesn't risk much.

If DK gets a hit in that's it. It's usually just a hit due to his knockback.

Marth is a better juggler due to his speed and it's easier for him to keep DK in that position. Dair can beat Marth's Uair if DK does it late, but usually that's not wise since DK would lag as he hit the ground.

Side B just stalls DK. But it keeps him in the air which is still a bad position to be in. It just messes with the opponent's timing. It's not a great answer.

And DK is still overall far more punishable then Marth is. And punishment from Marth will end up with DK usually in the air which is bad for him or the ledge which is still bad.

 

[TheNix]

If DK gets a hit in that's it. It's usually just a hit due to his knockback.

Down tilt->GFSC Forward+B->Whatever

I mean, normally you are right, most of DK's hits will be alone, but don't assume that he will only get one hit ever without playing a skilled DK player. This said, I agree that Marth can do huge damage when he gets in on DK. From 0% he can consistently get fthrow->fthrow->tip fsmash for a quick 29%, for example.

As I said earlier; I believe that Marth can get some really good things going against DK, but overall has difficulties with DK's range, and tends to die much earlier. I consider it to be a slight DK advantage, probably 55-45 (though I could agree with 60-40 as well).

 

[Emblem Lord]

Hence why I said, USUALLY it will be just a hit. Not always.

You seem to put more emphasis on DK's killing power. I think safety overall has a greater affect on a match-up since it more or less determines how often you will get your face rearranged.

I also feel that Marth's speed evens out with DK's range.

Basically each of their advantages and disadvantages are evened out when they face each other.

 

[Luigi player]

Side B just stalls DK. But it keeps him in the air which is still a bad position to be in. It just messes with the opponent's timing. It's not a great answer.

Actually DK can use side B in the other direction to be able to hit Marth with bair... that's something I saw in Bums videos and I think it's awesome, I'll try to implement it in my game. I think it will be really useful. If DK needs to recover just side B away to come back with bairs

 

[Emblem Lord]

Yeah I know about that.

But I was talking terms of when Marth is below DK.

 

[Luigi player]

Yeah I know about that.

But I was talking terms of when Marth is below DK.

Yeah that's a really bad position for DK, but maybe he could move away to be able to hit Marth with bair... or he could trick him and move to the other side and does a fair...

But it's definitely an advantages position for Marth. And I agree that he can juggle DK better than DK Marth.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

Marth's Nair contends with angles tilts and Bair as well. It's two quick consecutive hitboxes that's let Marth penetrate safely. It can beat DK's Bair and his angled tilts. It's also a solid approach when DK is on the ground due to his height although DK can crouch to make things tougher on Marth.

no, angle ftilt will beat nair every time, i've done this to mike, bardull, and a bunch of other marths who have tried it. it isn't hard.

Quote:
Originally Posted by itsthebigfoot View Post
let me get this straight, you believe that the game and watch should always be perfectly spaced to avoid any and all punishment, but then brush off dk's juggles because it takes decent spacing and timing (not even that hard).
Ok first off juggling really doesn't exist in Brawl like it did in Melee. Lack of any usuable hitstun + multiple airdodges means it's extremely easy to break out of many juggle attempts if you have good aerial mobility and/or a good Dair to bail yourself out. Oh yeah... there's also the whole floaty gravity thing.

theres also the whole, get right below them, then either punish their dair with our 6 frame uair, or wait for their airdodge to end to punish them with the uair. which is why you can still juggle, don't believe me? play a good wario and try to get back on the ground

Quote:
you also think that while dk's quick ko moves with gigantic range are completely unlandable against a decent opponent, game and watch will be able to juggle and land a CHARGED usmash with no problem whatsoever
Frame data on DK kill moves:

Fsmash: 22
Usmash: 14
Dsmash: 11
Neutral B: 18
Side B (technically a setup move but leads to kills): 20

Compared to GW:

Fsmash: 17
Dsmash: 15
Usmash: 24
Fair: 10

GW's kill moves are not really that fast. It's actually tough to land kill moves with GW if your opponent knows what they're doing. I really don't know what your definition of "quick" is. The frame data speaks for itself.

our dsmash is frame 10 buddy

and honestly, 20 frames is what i consider quick enough for its range. he keeps saying that landing one of our moves, with their ridiculous range and set ups, was impossible. then he says that his smash, which is slower than all of ours, should land, CHARGED. the entire point was to point out how much of a hypocrit he was being.

Quote:
gdubs is also apparently better at starting juggles, because you said so, even though dk has uthrow, utilt (which combos out of bair and has huge range and priority)

GW's Uair actually is a true juggler because it forces your opponent in the air making them have to airdodge out of it. Compare this to other juggles where characters can a lot of times escape with an attack from above. GW can also pop foes into the air with Nair/Utilt/Uthrow so that's kind of a moot point.

I said better juggle STARTER, and i went on to mention nair and uthrow (utilt either doesn't set up or combos into itself.)

Quote:
downb (entirely disjointed, huge range, punishes anything)
Ego much? You might want to check the vadility on that statement.

ok, let me check on that

lets see here, still entirely disjointed

oh wait, it still out ranges all snake and mks ground moves

and, wait, it still punishes attacks, spotdodges, rolls, and shields

whats this, I was right? Who da thunk it?

Quote:
and you wonder why people ignore you.

I pretty much ignore both of you when you just do nothing but feud against each other. I was going to try and discuss other matchups against DK here but you and a2 keep butting heads... nothing new

the difference being I run this thread and actually play the character i argue for, and have matchup experience. he admits to not playing many dks, which tells me he is just pulling stuff out of his ***


good job reading and keeping in context before replying, you definitely didn't reply to stuff i never said, seriously /sarcasm

btw, sorry i replied to a2 on a board where the discussion was relevant, instead of spamming the rob thread with dk vs gdubs arguments. clearly i was completely out of line


EDIT: cause that took a while

Hence why I said, USUALLY it will be just a hit. Not always.

You seem to put more emphasis on DK's killing power. I think safety overall has a greater affect on a match-up since it more or less determines how often you will get your face rearranged.

I also feel that Marth's speed evens out with DK's range.

Basically each of their advantages and disadvantages are evened out when they face each other.

dk doesn't have to be unsafe though, he can just poke your shield with well spaced downbs/retreating bairs and force you to approach. if you get inside, our upb wiill either get us back on the outside, or shield poke you and knock you away. all of dk's specials are pretty safe, because they either poke/get out of range, our knock you too far away for you to respond.

basically smart dks won't be that unsafe, since we are mostly unsafe with kos, or set ups to ko's, but in this matchup we can kill with grabs (which are very safe on block, it's almost like they're unblockable, who would've guessed?), kill with a punish, and kill with a counter attack (donkey punch)

Off stage Marth can counter to stuff up b if DK used his jump. Pretty much no way DK can deal with this.

Remember the momentum? Marth is fast so if he gets his hit in it's easy or him to keep pressure on. Since he is safer as well if DK gets his footing back Marth doesn't risk much.

If DK gets a hit in that's it. It's usually just a hit due to his knockback.

for stuffing the upb, he has to lose his jump first, which probably won't happen if he DI's well. i usually just fall with fair, double jump, then use upb for the invincibility frames/auto snap on.

also, bair - bair - tilt - something else works pretty well for dk, he can get some 0-40ish combos in, and it puts you in a bad position.

dk can do damage just as well as marth

Marth is a better juggler due to his speed and it's easier for him to keep DK in that position. Dair can beat Marth's Uair if DK does it late, but usually that's not wise since DK would lag as he hit the ground.

Side B just stalls DK. But it keeps him in the air which is still a bad position to be in. It just messes with the opponent's timing. It's not a great answer.

And DK is still overall far more punishable then Marth is. And punishment from Marth will end up with DK usually in the air which is bad for him or the ledge which is still bad.

dk should be downbing from a distance, dtilting/upbing up close (upb for defensive options, downb for offensive options) and ftilting to go through your aerials, and again, you have to approach him, so him being unsafe isn't as big of a deal, since you'll have the disadvantage of approaching.

also, i know you're trying to downplay it by saying better punishment options, but you kill dk in the 140+ range, and he kills you in the 70+ range, it is a significant difference.

now, if the dk plays largely with bairs, maybe a few tilts/dsmash/a punch (A.K.A. new to dk), he will get ***** in this matchup

if he relies on tilts, with a few bair combos finishing fsmashes/punches(a.k.a. decent dk), it's pretty even

if he pokes with specials, and then mixes in bairs and tilts to beat marths offensive options, then finishing with pretty much anything(good dks), he has the advantage

it's not much of an advantage, but dk has range, power, priority, weight, and the ability to camp

marth has speed, safety, and punishment but he has to approach, which puts him at a slight disadvantage

6-4 dk

 

[A2ZOMG]

DK doesn't have any quick ways of putting G&W in a position where he is at an unavoidable disadvantage. G&W is a MUCH safer character than DK, and always has an option to stay safe from DK's KO moves. Basically, G&W has to make a mistake in order to actually get hit by something like DK's F-smash.

DK on the other hand has no reliable ways to contend to G&W's juggling or his charge release Up-smash. All G&W has to do is wait until DK is at a certain height (where he can't air dodge the attack as it will hit him as he lands) or observe that he is attacking, and he can continue to juggle. Even if the N-air misses, G&W still has a very high probability of being able to grab DK on the way down, which will reset the situation of course.

Charge release Up-smash gets around the startup lag and punishes DK as he is LANDING ON THE GROUND. RELIABLY. Even if he tries to attack it, it will get outprioritized. If he air dodges, he gets hit before his shield can go up.

Basically, G&W's charge release Up-Smash is like a combo finisher. G&W has all the tools he needs in order to force DK to land into his Up-smash. Because of this, the startup time on G&W's Up-smash DOES NOT MATTER AT ALL. The only thing that matters from there is the time it takes to release it, which is extremely fast.

DK on the other hand doesn't have the tools to force G&W to land into his U-smash, F-smash, Giant Punch, or his headbutt. Because of this, the startup time on his moves actually matters.

I usually try to make a point of being a nice and polite guy on SWF, but I'll have to be blunt here.

Stop being so dumb and learn what positional advantage is. G&W has BETTER positional advantage setups (since he has some very fast and safe attacks that set up for juggling nicely), and one of those setups makes it impossible to avoid his Up-smash as long as he predicts where you are going to land. DK does not have any reliable setups into KO moves except headbutt, which is an unsafe attack against someone who knows how it works. This means that he has no reliable ways around the startup on a lot of his KO moves against a person who plays defensively. And this is also why I am certain that DK's D-smash out of shield is one of his most critical attacks to keep fresh. It actually comes out fast.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

DK doesn't have any quick ways of putting G&W in a position where he is at an unavoidable disadvantage. G&W is a MUCH safer character than DK, and always has an option to stay safe from DK's KO moves. Basically, G&W has to make a mistake in order to actually get hit by something like DK's F-smash.

and yet it is very easy to land a punch. also, any character played perfectly will never get hit, so saying gdubs has to make a mistake to get hit is technically true, but the same applies to dk. to modify your quote "Basically, DK has to make a mistake in order to actually get hit by something."

DK on the other hand has no reliable ways to contend to G&W's juggling or his charge release Up-smash. All G&W has to do is wait until DK is at a certain height (where he can't air dodge the attack as it will hit him as he lands) or observe that he is attacking, and he can continue to juggle. Even if the N-air misses, G&W still has a very high probability of being able to grab DK on the way down, which will reset the situation of course.

3 simple ways to not get juggled

1. go to the ledge
2. don't be a predictable tool with your air dodges
3. counter attack smartly

this is universal and applies to all characters. this is all negated if you are playing online.

dk should be moving and either fastfalling bairs, air dodging, sideb stalling, and upbing to a ledge if all else fails.

Charge release Up-smash gets around the startup lag and punishes DK as he is LANDING ON THE GROUND. RELIABLY. Even if he tries to attack it, it will get outprioritized. If he air dodges, he gets hit before his shield can go up.

the same can be said for a dk fsmash/dsmash, except the fsmash/dsmash is faster + covers more range + kos earlier.

Basically, G&W's charge release Up-Smash is like a combo finisher. G&W has all the tools he needs in order to force DK to land into his Up-smash. Because of this, the startup time on G&W's Up-smash DOES NOT MATTER AT ALL. The only thing that matters from there is the time it takes to release it, which is extremely fast.

no, basically charged smashes on landing is their to punish dumb people and/or people who play online for landing right next to the other guy. also, 24 frame startup + charge does matter, cause if the dk sees it coming, he can get around it (double jump, or bair/uair when he's expecting you to land, airdodging when he's expecting you to attack

DK on the other hand doesn't have the tools to force G&W to land into his U-smash, F-smash, Giant Punch, or his headbutt. Because of this, the startup time on his moves actually matters.

to land fsmash, release on landing lag, combo out of headbutt, or force a tech by the ledge and space well

to land a usmash, combo out of headbutt, force a tech on a platform, or knock him into the air and either usmash through his dair, or wait till his airdodge ends to land it.

to land punch, use it whenever he attacks with any attack, or do what i said about fsmash

to land a headbutt, gfsc it oos on any move that has a -6 frame advantage or force a tech-chase

also, our dsmash still kills before your usmash, comes out quicker (by 14 frames) can do anything your usmash does, and hits below stages

I'm explaining pretty basic stuff to you, this is why i hate arguing with you, you don't know the **** character

I usually try to make a point of being a nice and polite guy on SWF, but I'll have to be blunt here.

Stop being so dumb and learn what positional advantage is. G&W has BETTER positional advantage setups (since he has some very fast and safe attacks that set up for juggling nicely), and one of those setups makes it impossible to avoid his Up-smash as long as he predicts where you are going to land. DK does not have any reliable setups into KO moves except headbutt, which is an unsafe attack against someone who knows how it works. This means that he has no reliable ways around the startup on a lot of his KO moves against a person who plays defensively. And this is also why I am certain that DK's D-smash out of shield is one of his most critical attacks to keep fresh. It actually comes out fast.

I'm going to be blunter here.

Actually play the **** matchup against a competent opponent in tournament before arguing the matchup

don't state things as fact when they really are not even close to true. dk has the edge because gdubs relies on his lingering hitboxes to stay safe, dk's high priority and SA act as overrides, making the moves unsafe. to top it off, dk has a range and power advantage in the matchup, and can kill gdubs at ridiculously low percentages.

also, never assume that a move should never land if you are playing right. no move should ever land if you are playing absolutely right, so it's a moot (and stupid) argument. however, you feel the need to post frequently with your crap, so from now on the only response i will give you is that if you hit the dk, the dk was doing it wrong. honestly, I should just ignore you since you're a dumb theory fighter that doesn't know what he is talking about and thinks basic tools for landing ko moves (use it on landing) only apply to game and watch.

name one notable dk (you have 3 in your area, me, jmex, and teba) that you beat in beat or even kept up with in tournament before posting your stupidity.

maybe not teba, he'd just beat the crap out of you with d3 in tournament

 

[cutter]

our dsmash is frame 10 buddy

Against GW?

Dsmash 10-14/55...(Dsmash only hits tall chars close to him on frame 10 which means that MK and other short chars on the ground it hits starting from frame 11. His arms are fully extended on the second active frame. Hits on frames 8-12 from a charge release)

Maybe you should redo the frame data then.

I don't think GW is a tall character. Do you? Maybe that's my definition of short?

and honestly, 20 frames is what i consider quick enough for its range.

Stop creating an illusion that 20 frames is fast. It is not.

he keeps saying that landing one of our moves, with their ridiculous range and set ups, was impossible. then he says that his smash, which is slower than all of ours, should land, CHARGED. the entire point was to point out how much of a hypocrit he was being.

Look who's talking.

ok, let me check on that

Sure you will.

lets see here, still entirely disjointed

DK pounds his hands, extending his hurtbox. Again, you are incorrect. The move is not "entirely disjointed".

Entirely = 100%

oh wait, it still out ranges all snake and mks ground moves

Grenades/Nikita? Technically they're ground moves. You fail to impress me.

If you want to continue and argue semantics, then stop wasting my time.

and, wait, it still punishes attacks, spotdodges, rolls, and shields

...and? Shall you continue? I probably don't want to hear it.

whats this, I was right? Who da thunk it?

Once again, Bigfoot rears his ego. Seems futile to me when you spew this kind of garbage and make yourself look like a complete moron.

the difference being I run this thread

No, you don't run this thread. Technically the mods run it. Stop acting like a ridiculous megalomaniac.

and actually play the character i argue for, and have matchup experience.
he admits to not playing many dks, which tells me he is just pulling stuff out of his ***

Both theorycraft and experience go only so far.

I'm pretty frickin' close to putting you on my ignore list.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Both characters have the tools to do a number on one another. Marth has to approach and he has the tools to do so effectively. DK has to keep him out and he has the tools to do so effectively.

For an angled f-tilt to beat Marth's Nair, he would need to be actively using it as an approach. If he throws it out while going forward then pulls back it allows him to advance fairly safely.

DK's hand would have to hit Marth's body. If DK's hand hits Marth's sword then nothing happens to Marth but DK gets hurt. You aren't beating the Nair so much as spacing correctly to hit Marth's body. In regards to the attacks themselves the Nair will win when properly spaced.

It IS possible that you are better then Bardull and the other Marth's you played. Just saying.

And as far as I know only DK's spaced Bair, D-tilt and down b is safe. DK has to play a much tighter spacing game then Marth does though since he is slower.

But as I said...they both have the tools to do well. DK lives longer but Marth being a better punisher with greater mobility means something. It means he will be getting in damage more consistently.

And yeah DK has tricks to keep him safe when he gets knocked off. So does Marth. But I would never act like being off the ledge isn't a dangerous thing for Marth. And it's even more dangerous for DK. A footstool is all it would take really and he is gone. Marth has a fairly easy time covering DK's options when he is off the stage due to his aerial prowess. DK doesn't have it that easy when Marth is knocked off.

Both characters pros cancel each other out which makes this a very even match.

 

[DMG]

Lol so much anger over DK vs G&W.

G&W vs DK is probably 55 : 45, maybe 60 : 40 for G&W, and let me tell you why. It isn't because of G&W juggling DK, charging Usmashes, or having a 15 frame Dsmash. It it because G&W has some pretty gay stuff like Full hopped retreating bairs and well spaced Dtilts and ledge camping with Nair or Upb. It's because G&W can do this over and over and over if he wants to and reset the position over and over. G&W can be near impossible for DK to hit, ESPECIALLY with just full out spacing stuff and edgecamping.

A2Z, if the DK wants to avoid the Usmash that badly, he might just friggen Upb and go towards an edge or platform or juke you out. Or he might try Side B to stall him momentarily. Or he just might move over to the side lol. But enough of that, point is DK isn't losing to G&W because of juggling or Usmash or whatever.

 

[Luigi player]

Lol so much anger over DK vs G&W.

G&W vs DK is probably 55 : 45, maybe 60 : 40 for G&W, and let me tell you why. It isn't because of G&W juggling DK, charging Usmashes, or having a 15 frame Dsmash. It it because G&W has some pretty gay stuff like Full hopped retreating bairs and well spaced Dtilts and ledge camping with Nair or Upb. It's because G&W can do this over and over and over if he wants to and reset the position over and over. G&W can be near impossible for DK to hit, ESPECIALLY with just full out spacing stuff and edgecamping.

No, GaW is not that hard for DK. Bair isn't as good as everyone thinks. DK also can jump above GaW and hit him. GaW's bair isn't the best attack in the game. >_> Also if GaW full hops can't DK do a running upsmash to hit him?

Edge camping doesn't work that well against DK, especially because of his invincibility frames. He can also sweetspot the edge easily with his upB and thus GaW will have to land on stage and DK can punish it.

I also don't understand how it is "near impossible" for DK to hit GaW, because DK has one the best ranges in the game. >_> This would mean nearly every other character would not be able to hit GaW.

 

[gantrain05]

cutter wtf man lol. bigfoot has actually gave REASONS to why alot of the stuff he's saying will work, you are just replying with smartass remarks and think you won the argument, you make yourself look like an idiot doing that.

 

[DMG]

No, GaW is not that hard for DK. Bair isn't as good as everyone thinks. DK also can jump above GaW and hit him. GaW's bair isn't the best attack in the game. >_> Also if GaW full hops can't DK do a running upsmash to hit him?

Edge camping doesn't work that well against DK, especially because of his invincibility frames. He can also sweetspot the edge easily with his upB and thus GaW will have to land on stage and DK can punish it.

I also don't understand how it is "near impossible" for DK to hit GaW, because DK has one the best ranges in the game. >_> This would mean nearly every other character would not be able to hit GaW.

Retreating Bair is hard for DK to deal with, DK has to have his Bair out already and have it hitting a part of G&W for it to trade hits. As for running Usmash, I think Bair reaches low enough that it would hit the upper part of DK. If you go above G&W, you will miss with Bair since that reaches upwards, and if you are facing forwards then Fair or another aerial would miss as well. DK has a hard time hitting him more because of the size of his hurtboxes in relationship to his hitboxes. Also since he is a large target he has trouble SDIing out of Bair and punishing it good, and he also has trouble doing stuff like running under it or even running towards him, PS, and try to punish afterwards since he has to shield sooner than a lot of characters and has more ground to cover.

As for edgecamping, DK cannot really safely stop G&W from doing it.

I mean it's not impossible to hit Watch as DK, but it is really hard if the G&W wants to camp or really play the game in an all out hit and run war, then I think G&W would win.

 

[Luigi player]

I think if GaW tries to edgecamp against DK he's putting himself in a bad position...

DK could jump out and try to hit him with a bair. GaW has 2 options then: Go on the stage or let go of the edge.

If he falls down DK can sweetspot the edge with his upB and GaW needs to upB with which he has to land on the stage if he doesn't want to die.

If GaW goes on stage DK can follow him. DK could also try to trick GaW so he does the wrong thing and then he'll get punished.

 

[A2ZOMG]

If you try to go offstage....G&W gets back on stage safely and has the positional advantage if he knows what he's doing. When I edgecamp, I want you to go there. That is where YOUR options are most limited.

 

[Luigi player]

If you try to go offstage....G&W gets back on stage safely and has the positional advantage if he knows what he's doing. When I edgecamp, I want you to go there. That is where YOUR options are most limited.

Yeah and the DK is too dumb of course to do anything about it...

Just so you know, DK can hit GaW on the edge with a dsmash. If you always fall down DK could just do dsmash all the time and suddenly he quickly follows you and stage-spikes you with a bair He could also trick you by charging up the smash if you want to jump up and punish him for it.

DK could also just fake out to go offstage and then jumps back and hits you.

DK on the edge is also not really that big of a disadvantage (of course GaW has the better position then, but it's not like DK can't do anything on the edge). He could jump back a little and space a fair. He could roll behind you (I guess GaW could punish it, but nobody is perfect which means you might not see it coming or something), of he could also get on stage lagless with an upB. If you're too near he could also hit you with an upair. Or he just does the edgeattack.


He isn't really helpless like you say.


Edit: Also

Retreating Bair is hard for DK to deal with

Nope. If you use the bair too late DK can go right below GaW and upsmash him (or he does any other attack). If Gaw uses it too early DK can punish the lag of it. DK could also full jump (or doube jump) and fair you. It shouldn't be that difficult to time it.

 

[Neb]

I think if GaW tries to edgecamp against DK he's putting himself in a bad position...

DK could jump out and try to hit him with a bair. GaW has 2 options then: Go on the stage or let go of the edge.

If he falls down DK can sweetspot the edge with his upB and GaW needs to upB with which he has to land on the stage if he doesn't want to die.

If GaW goes on stage DK can follow him. DK could also try to trick GaW so he does the wrong thing and then he'll get punished.

G&W could just uair DK away, or nair his approach as he aerially goes into position.
Of course there's always upb, but the above options are better and safer.

 

[DMG]

Dsmash shouldn't hit with all of the invincibility frames G&W gets, not even including the problems that would occur with G&W using Nair or sweet spotting with Upb.

Edge camping is hard for DK to deal with, and G&W is pretty darn good at it.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Ledgecamping should be banned. Planking ftl.

 

[Steel]

that was the only marth discussion that was going to happen?

I'm disappointed.

*Sheaths his sword, flicks his hair and walks into the sunset.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Just so you know, DK can hit GaW on the edge with a dsmash. If you always fall down DK could just do dsmash all the time and suddenly he quickly follows you and stage-spikes you with a bair He could also trick you by charging up the smash if you want to jump up and punish him for it.

I don't care that you can hit G&W on the edge with D-smash if he stays there too long. If G&W knows how to edgecamp it's not going to hit him, and he will N-air your hand in the landing lag.

Charging up Smashes while G&W is edgecamping is a horrible idea. No smart G&W while edgecamping will take any unnecessary risks. Instead, they will wait for the Smash to be released, and then decide whether or not to punish it.

DK could also just fake out to go offstage and then jumps back and hits you.

Dropdown N-air counters DK if he tries to go offstage at any time. It covers better options than DK's B-air.

DK on the edge is also not really that big of a disadvantage (of course GaW has the better position then, but it's not like DK can't do anything on the edge). He could jump back a little and space a fair. He could roll behind you (I guess GaW could punish it, but nobody is perfect which means you might not see it coming or something), of he could also get on stage lagless with an upB. If you're too near he could also hit you with an upair. Or he just does the edgeattack.

Your best option is edge attack under 100% or Up-B edgecamp. All other options are easily punished.

F-air is slow as whack. U-air is risky and unsafe on block. Up-B is still punishable, even without the landing lag.

Nope. If you use the bair too late DK can go right below GaW and upsmash him (or he does any other attack). If Gaw uses it too early DK can punish the lag of it. DK could also full jump (or doube jump) and fair you. It shouldn't be that difficult to time it.

HAHAHA.

Up-smash is the easiest attack in the game to read and has no hitbox on the ground.

F-air is also very easy to react to and very bad when landing.

You're better off trying to space F-smashes if he's retreating with B-airs, and even those aren't very safe.

 

[Luigi player]

HAHAHA.

Up-smash is the easiest attack in the game to read and has no hitbox on the ground.

F-air is also very easy to react to and very bad when landing.

You're better off trying to space F-smashes if he's retreating with B-airs, and even those aren't very safe.

Um, I was saying if GaW starts to jump and uses the bair. If he already uses it he can't stop, evade or attack something that comes from below or above.

 

[A2ZOMG]

You haven't played against G&Ws who fastfall the back air, which covers a lot of area vertically and is pretty fast.

If DK tries to U-smash against that, it won't go low enough to hit G&W, and he will likely get hit in the process. F-air is too slow to punish G&W out of that either.

 

[Luigi player]

You haven't played against G&Ws who fastfall the back air, which covers a lot of area vertically and is pretty fast.

If DK tries to U-smash against that, it won't go low enough to hit G&W, and he will likely get hit in the process. F-air is too slow to punish G&W out of that either.

If they fastfall the bair, it means that they have to use it a bit late, because if they use it immediately you would just fastfall your bairlag.
-> DK can attack you before you use it (preferably upsmash), or you will only fastfall your bairlag and DK can hit you (with a spaced fsmash for example).

Oh and I just found out DK can hit GaW on the edge with a fsmash too. Now let's see how you punish that, lol. You can't nair it if DK spaces it correctly, they would only trade hits (~3 % for DK and ~20 % for GaW).

 

[A2ZOMG]

Yeah, and see, those two examples are pretty stupid. If G&W is in the position where DK could SUPPOSEDLY punish G&W like that for doing a fastfalled B-air, he'd have to be pretty close to G&W in the first place BEFORE G&W actually did this and keep in mind, DK is not the only one capable of adapting to different situations, and you probably wouldn't consider this option in the first place from a position like that.