Matchup Thread (Updated 01/13/2010) -- Please Submit Ratios and Summaries!

[SOVAman]

He is tooooooooooooooo good! :D

I stop taking you serious after I read that

 

[Shiri]

Yay, people like the idea! :D

^___^

 

[Delta-cod]

hey yall I just took up Yoshi as a Secondary, He is tooooooooooooooo good! :D

So give me (Knowned as Japan from AIB) a warm welcome to the Yoshi boards (^-^)^

Where do I post up new techs and glitches and or strategies? ._.


-Japan-

You'll probably want to post them in the Q&A thread first to see if it's already been known, or search for the tech/glitch/strategy through the boards.

Welcome. And yes, Yoshi is too good.

Except for Wolf. We all hate Wolf.

 

[Dr. Robotnik]

(Yoshi vs. Diddy
So, very recently, i've found out that yoshi's side-b/egg roll, can go over banana's. I am unsure that anyone has tested/posted info about this, but i think this should be looked into with more depth.)

i posted this and my thread was closed. not really sure why, but ill answer some of the questions i read.

the egg roll has about half of the frames where its technically not on the ground, so the banana's can't effect it.

why is this useful? egg roll at about 130 will send diddy far enough (kill on bad di) where yoshi can get out, and completely block his recovery(one of the easiest people to edge guard i think)

i don't think a diddy will think this move will go over the banana's, causing them not to shield the first or second time you do it. and even if you do trip, you trip with the momentum of the egg roll.

over all, i think this is a legit tactic to use against diddy, making the match up MAYBE 45-55 diddy's favor.



also, i think if spaced correctly, you can find out which frames are in the air from a ground start on the egg roll. just a thought, i tested it, but wasnt sure.

 

[YoshiIslander77z]

(Yoshi vs. Diddy
So, very recently, i've found out that yoshi's side-b/egg roll, can go over banana's. I am unsure that anyone has tested/posted info about this, but i think this should be looked into with more depth.)

i posted this and my thread was closed. not really sure why, but ill answer some of the questions i read.

the egg roll has about half of the frames where its technically not on the ground, so the banana's can't effect it.

why is this useful? egg roll at about 130 will send diddy far enough (kill on bad di) where yoshi can get out, and completely block his recovery(one of the easiest people to edge guard i think)

i don't think a diddy will think this move will go over the banana's, causing them not to shield the first or second time you do it. and even if you do trip, you trip with the momentum of the egg roll.

over all, i think this is a legit tactic to use against diddy, making the match up MAYBE 45-55 diddy's favor.



also, i think if spaced correctly, you can find out which frames are in the air from a ground start on the egg roll. just a thought, i tested it, but wasnt sure.

u have to consider that using egg roll wont work to many times vs diddy. 1 because diddy has so many options to avoid or counter attack his egg roll. he can jump out the way, time it and grab, smash attack, if hes is holding a banana i think it will trip yoshi and do damage. i can be used as a surprise attack sometimes but otherwise its not to helpful and wont change the MU =/

 

[Dr. Robotnik]

well, i guess thats an opinion status. what we really need is for someone who has connections with some of the best diddy's to test this out. i think it could be used as a viable asset.

 

[Sharky]

egg roll only goes over the bananas some of the time. I think it depends on where his feet are at the time, but I honestly don't know for sure.

 

[Deleted member]

Egg roll is one of the most punsihable moves in the game by any character, except for a few characters while they fall, like olimar.

 

[YoshiIslander77z]

-_- even the guy with 12 post doesnt take my statement seriously....

egg roll is a punishable move rite? ur sayin we should use it to help the diddy mu be 55:45?

i dont see how it can be used at as a "viable asset" if it only will work a few times as a surprise attack

do u see how this can also be a disadvantage for yoshi by using this to often??

 

[SOVAman]

The diddy MU should be 56.7000000324:44.3000000786

 

[hadesblade]

The diddy MU should be 56.7000000324:44.3000000786

I hope you realize that adds up to 101.0000001110 =/

 

[SOVAman]

I hope you realize that adds up to 101.0000001110 =/

The extra 1.0000001110 is because of diddy's bananas count as another character

 

[Dr. Robotnik]

-_- even the guy with 12 post doesnt take my statement seriously....

egg roll is a punishable move rite? ur sayin we should use it to help the diddy mu be 55:45?

i dont see how it can be used at as a "viable asset" if it only will work a few times as a surprise attack

do u see how this can also be a disadvantage for yoshi by using this to often??

1) i've been in the smash community since 2004, so find your facts.

it doesnt need to be used often if you get the kill. it only needs to work once.

its no disadvantage to yoshi at all, and you think it is, you must not be very good.

all moves are punishable, just some more than others. if you spam it, your obviously going to get nailed for it. ever heard of mind games?

i think you should look into the "how to hatch a healthy yoshi" thread, or atleast learn how to play smash since you are obviously showing lack of knowledge.

 

[Airborne]

1) i've been in the smash community since 2004, so find your facts.

it doesnt need to be used often if you get the kill. it only needs to work once.

its no disadvantage to yoshi at all, and you think it is, you must not be very good.

all moves are punishable, just some more than others. if you spam it, your obviously going to get nailed for it. ever heard of mind games?

i think you should look into the "how to hatch a healthy yoshi" thread, or atleast learn how to play smash since you are obviously showing lack of knowledge.

Present frame data before you start insulting; not just say it, PRESENT it. I'm talking specific frames and everything, if it apparently has frames that aren't on the ground.

Also, back up your opinion with videos so that we will believe it (aka vids or it didn't happen). I would only use this egg roll thing if it goes over bananas 100% of the time.

 

[Metatitan]

Egg roll is a terrible move and you must be crazy to think it improves any matchup.

 

[Sharky]

Look, I'm gonna lay this down for people one time, that's it.

All people have to do to punish egg role is turn away from the egg, shield, and grab right after it hits them as it passes by. Assuming we aren't talking about another yoshi (lol slow shield grab), it will work EVERY TIME. And before you say turn the egg around before it gets to the other side, if you do that, you don't hit them, so your egg roll got a bit moldy, didn't it? Egg Roll = Fail.

In fact, I'm going to put that in the yoshi guide, so people stop bringing up egg roll as a good move.

 

[Shiri]

LOL @ moldy egg roll

Matt, I think the general message people may be trying to get across (I don't know for sure) is that the move has its applications on falling opponents.

I think it's plain to see that this game has absolutely zero characters who are unable to beat or punish this move when they're grounded.

 

[Sharky]

this guy was trying to get over bananas with it though. That's just not working =/ It's sort of ok against aerial opponents, unless they have a decent priority aerial that they can send at it...then we're screwed again. Really, I only think it's good as a mix-up, better against some characters then others, but still crap overall.

 

[YoshiIslander77z]

1) i've been in the smash community since 2004, so find your facts.

it doesnt need to be used often if you get the kill. it only needs to work once.

its no disadvantage to yoshi at all, and you think it is, you must not be very good.

all moves are punishable, just some more than others. if you spam it, your obviously going to get nailed for it. ever heard of mind games?

i think you should look into the "how to hatch a healthy yoshi" thread, or atleast learn how to play smash since you are obviously showing lack of knowledge.

well im not gonna stock u to find out uve been here a while, im just saying u have 13 post and havent really been contributing to the boards to often

if u call a move that can be a viable asset to yoshi, it clearly should be safe to use more than once ...

I dont consider my self a good yoshi yet but its obvious egg roll IS a HUGE disadvantage to use yoshi in the diddy mu. egg rolling gives him the chance to do to many things such as pull out 2 bananas, get his bananas off a platform, punsh it with a banana he is holding into all the crap diddy can do after, ,simply time it and smash it, shield it then counter or set up, shall i continue?

do u not understand diddy wants u to trip on the bananas so a 50/50 chance of rolling over them is not good. and most ppl would have the reaction to shield it when that happens to go over

i think most people have heard of the term mind games what makes u think using eggroll would make a good mind game, especially with this kinda of lagg.
Egg Roll (Side Special):
Start up: 24
Earliest Hit: 25
Ends: 420 Latest, 93Earliest
Free Fall Landing Lag: 29


but no i guess ur right as i obviously dont kno what im talking about and should not voice my opinion because u clearly now im a trash player that doesnt like using egg roll vs diddy or pretty much any character in fact.

 

[Yikarur]

he can't be serious D:
I kill very unusually with Egg Roll, about three times in 365 Days against noobish opponents.
I can't believe that someone is thinking that Egg roll could be a good move.
It's just the most useless move in the game. D:

 

[SOVAman]

well im not gonna stock u to find out uve been here a while, im just saying u have 13 post and havent really been contributing to the boards to often

if u call a move that can be a viable asset to yoshi, it clearly should be safe to use more than once ...

I dont consider my self a good yoshi yet but its obvious egg roll IS a HUGE disadvantage to use yoshi in the diddy mu. egg rolling gives him the chance to do to many things such as pull out 2 bananas, get his bananas off a platform, punsh it with a banana he is holding into all the crap diddy can do after, ,simply time it and smash it, shield it then counter or set up, shall i continue?

do u not understand diddy wants u to trip on the bananas so a 50/50 chance of rolling over them is not good. and most ppl would have the reaction to shield it when that happens to go over

i think most people have heard of the term mind games what makes u think using eggroll would make a good mind game, especially with this kinda of lagg.
Egg Roll (Side Special):
Start up: 24
Earliest Hit: 25
Ends: 420 Latest, 93Earliest
Free Fall Landing Lag: 29


but no i guess ur right as i obviously dont kno what im talking about and should not voice my opinion because u clearly now im a trash player that doesnt like using egg roll vs diddy or pretty much any character in fact.

are you trollin us?

 

[YoshiIslander77z]

are you trollin us?

no just dr robotnik for esstenially call me dumb with my yoshi facts. ive coulda been much heavier on the trolling tho

 

[Ixisnaugus]

Hi Yoshi's, sorry to bother you all. I've done a writeup on the matchup of Yoshi vs Bowser over in the Bowser boards so if anyone is interested you could go take a look. Thanks for listening.

EDIT: Right, my bad. Here you go: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=9487561#post9487561

 

[Delta-cod]

A link would have been nice. =]

I'll go check anyways.

 

[Rajam]

No ratios yet?

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=226315

 

[Shiri]

Nobody has submitted any.

I do enjoy our glorious white line, though.

 

[Poltergust]

Actually, I was looking at the Tactical Discussion board and noticed that we are the only characters with NOTHING on the match-up chart. So, I'm going to put down some ratios that I think most people will agree with. Please point out any glaring errors in these ratios (and by glaring, I mean by 10 points or more; we haven't discussed the characters enough to put down a specific ratio).

Meta Knight - 40:60
Snake - 40:60
Wario - 50:50
Falco - 40:60
Diddy Kong - 40:60
King Dedede - 45:55
Marth - 35:65
Pikachu - 45:55
Olimar - 50:50? (no idea...)
Ice Climbers - 55:45
R.O.B. - 45:55
Kirby - 50:50
Lucario - 35:65
Zero Suit Samus - 50:50
Toon Link - 40:60
Pit - 45:55
Donkey Kong - 45"55
Peach - 50:50
Mr. Game And Watch - 40:60
Luigi - 50:50
Fox - 50:50
Wolf - 35:65
Sonic - 55:45
Sheik - 50:50
Bowser - 60:40
Zelda - 45:55
Pokémon Trainer - 60:40
*Squirtle - 70:30
*Ivysaur - 55:45
*Charizard - 45:55
Ike - 50:50
Lucas - 55:45
Mario - 50:50
Ness - 45:55
Yoshi - 50:50
Samus - 35:65 (I'm gritting my teeth here...)
Jigglypuff - 60:40
Captain Falcon - 60:40
Link - 60:40
Ganondorf -65:35

These ratios are only temporary. We really need to discuss these characters more to get a more accurate ratio, but for now we can at least provide an estimate.

 

[Deleted member]

Meta Knight - 40:60 Mk was agreed by quite a few to be 35:65, including me bwett and green ace (back when we discussed this). Nothing has changed, its still an awful matchup if they know it WELL.
Falco - 40:6045:55 at worst, this should be considered an even matchup, yoshi does not lose to falco by anything more than a tiny bit.
Diddy Kong - 40:60 I could be wrong, but i think its yoshi's worst matchup. I need more experience but like, diddy shuts us down pretty badly.
Marth - 35:65 i would say 40:60, but its not a huge deal.
Ice Climbers - 55:45 50:50, we certainly do not beat ice climbers haha.
Lucario - 35:65NOOOOOOO. 40:60, just cuz scatz sucks doesnt mean its that bad.
Peach - 50:5040:60, me and meta have played this soooo much, a lot more than any yoshi has (at least 5x as much haha)
Wolf - 35:65 No wolf is a bad character.
Sonic - 55:45 Nooo sonic beats us pretty bad, like 40:60 imo.
Pokémon Trainer - 60:40 itts like 80:20, yoshi shouldnt never lose to PT ever.
*Squirtle - 70:30 80:20
*Ivysaur - 55:4560:40
*Charizard - 45:5560:40
Mario - 50:50 Naww we lose

These ratios are only temporary. We really need to discuss these characters more to get a more accurate ratio, but for now we can at least provide an estimate.

Commented on things i disagree with strongly (i am not nitpicking here too much, these are things i feel are definately wrong ).
I know they are only temporary, and that they arnet necesarrily your opinions.

 

[Poltergust]

Sockz, please only point out match-ups with differences being 10 points or more. We can nit-pick all you want later, but I want a rough estimate now. In that list, you should have really only commented on Diddy, Peach, Wolf, Sonic, PT, and Mario.

Also, your statements between Wolf and Mario contradict each other.

OBJECTION!

 

[Deleted member]

Lol
Mario loses because the top tier all have better options than he does, and he kinda has bad range and a shortish recovery.
Which means he loses matchups. He doesnt have any huge flaws.

Wolf does, but he accels at what he does, however yoshi can combo wolf very well.

Edit: I wasnt saying wolf doesnt beat yoshi, just not that badly.

Btw, polt, 60:40 is considered a soft counter.

 

[bigman40]

I must be brain-dead to still see you arguing some MUs with me. I know I'm not the greatest, but I **** well know when **** can't go our way when the inherent strengths of that character takes out multiple options from us easily. Most of your ratios make us look mid tier and yet you said yourself that Yoshi is low tier. Please correct your reasoning.

 

[Deleted member]

i was joking scatty -.-

Most of the matchups i changed i said were worse for yoshi.
Diddy, MK, ICs, Mario, and sonic.

I never said yoshi beats or goes even with lucario or marth, he is soft countered by them imo.

Lucarios options dont inherantly **** us like i feel MK and diddy do.
His short hop approaches are beaten by egg, his down air cant beat our up air.

The key is not commiting yourself to anything until you know what hes doing. Yoshi has a counter to everything he does, and unlike Mk, he doesnt really have that many options, and his floatiness means he cant quickly fast fall air dodge and punish an ETS from the air (like characters like ike can).

Idk, i play the best lucario on the west coast quite a bit cuz he lives in SD(probably been playing with him for a year and a half or something).

 

[Airborne]

Ratios are pointless. All I say is learn the freakin' MU. If people actually try to counter yoshi with some intimidating MU, then they must really suck and are desperate as hell.

All I can say is that yoshi has a little of everything, so if you're wanting to go about changing a MU around so that it's not as bad, look at what characters give our opponent a hard time, and pick up some methods that Yoshi can mimic in order to give the player a hard time.

 

[Sharky]

All I can say is that yoshi has a little of everything, so if you're wanting to go about changing a MU around so that it's not as bad, look at what characters give our opponent a hard time, and pick up some methods that Yoshi can mimic in order to give the player a hard time.

So in other words MK's ratio isn't gonna change =P

 

[Deleted member]

I dont give a **** about ratios but wolf and marth are not worse than diddy for us.
I dont really care how accurate they are as long as they are relative to eachother.

And i dont like matchups we clearly lose being listed as even.
But w/e idgaf

 

[Shiri]

ROFL

I'll just put Poltergust's list up for now and if anybody disagrees you can post your own or something.

 

[Delta-cod]

Ratios are pointless. All I say is learn the freakin' MU. If people actually try to counter yoshi with some intimidating MU, then they must really suck and are desperate as hell.

Hehe, reminds me of my match against Gunblade at Wiegraf. CP'd Wolf on me Game 3, I won anyways.

I believe Diddy to be at least even. I played a good one at Wiegraf as well, although it wasn't a tournament match. We went even, I didn't feel inherently limited nor did I feel that we really limited Diddy at all. I actually liked being able to use Bananas to escape shields and stuff. Also, with the recent wtfhax Japanese tech findings, we have some very interesting tools to use with nanners. I'm very interested in the Infinite Jump, myself.

 

[Shiri]

I don't know about "at least even."

Maybe "probably even." Or "should be even."

 

[Delta-cod]

Well, according to my 100% theorycrafted idea I came up with today, it might be in our favor, lol.

I'd like to try it out when I get the chance. Hopefully I can find a Diddy next Saturday to play.

 

[Airborne]

*SPOILER ALERT*
Yoshi gets an OoS against Diddy. GG.
In all seriousness though, expanding on the unique qualities of Yoshi's air game, mastering stage control, and patience are what's vital to this MU.