It would help other boards, and not just us. I do believe that we need to do it. We can have it strictly moderated though. I think that's a good idea. The state of our boards right now is laughable. Two people in two day have decided to leave. Why? Because of mindless arguments and stupid flaming. We were once one of the more together and cleaner boards. I hope that we can at least handle doing MU ratios. If not, i don't even know what.
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Matchup Thread (Updated 01/13/2010) -- Please Submit Ratios and Summaries!
- Thread starter Shiri
- Start date
- Status
Well, since you ladies seem to be intent on intelligently reaching matchup ratios, please do so by all means.I'll be watching to make sure you are all playing nice and I'll drop some knowledge if I can, but I can't help with the number game.
Oro?!
Smash Hero
Mmac if you need help with the matchups just let me know.
As requested of me some time ago, I am going to start speeding up matchup discussions.Apparently, we need to get the rest of them "done."
Starting tomorrow and into the next week, we will have multiple discussions per day. I hope you guys can contribute what you know and can refrain from turning the matchup threads into what they've been the last couple times.
Snowstalker
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Jan 25, 2008
- Messages
- 813
Honestly, our matchup threads seem far too disorganized. I think we should go back to the old system, because that's what everyone else is using, and what is going to benefit us overall in the long run.
Snowstalker, the only part about the old system that makes it kinda stinky......is the fact that the thread is confined to progress by the majority. With individual matchup threads, posters can discuss at their own tempo and can discuss that character for as long as they'd like as well as revisit that character in the future without disrupting current conversation.
I honestly don't see how it's disorganized (despite my personal bias toward the individual thread system). Maybe you can explain your point a little more to me?
Metatitan
Smash Master
What SHOULD be done is making chart that shows matchup ratios (I know you hate them but the majority of the boards uses them so we will too) and organizes characters on that chart either by tier list ranking or by ratio number. Individual threads are fine but really disorganized and links to each of these is needed (although you have probly done this, I didn't check) just like my moveset summary thread (which I would really like sticked plz 
). If mmac comes back (since I haven't seen him post in like a week and a half now), then he should make the chart since he did such a lovely job of this.
). If mmac comes back (since I haven't seen him post in like a week and a half now), then he should make the chart since he did such a lovely job of this.
Silent Beast
Smash Journeyman
The main problem, imo, is that, unlike the old matchup thread, we don't have summaries for the matchups that we discussed. The way the individual threads are now, you have to go through each discussion to find the necessary points, which in something like the vs. Samus thread, would be quite tedious. The old way, it was discuss the matchup for whatever amount of time --> summary --> new matchup. I do like the current individual matchup thread idea better than the other way. It's just that we need to get summaries up (admittedly, not all of the threads have seen enough discussion to write up a good summary).
Okay.Meta, despite how adamantly I oppose them, I won't refuse to host a matchup chart whatever ratios you guys decide on (I think I've said this a while ago, I can't remember). I won't deprive you guys of something you want if you want it real bad. Just whoever is going to edit it/make it/break it/whatever needs to PM or VM me whenever it is done and then I can help you guys put it somewhere (if I am needed).
Silent Beast, I can feel you on that. Would anybody like to volunteer to do summaries? I can do them, but I am slow and lazy and extremely biased.
SOVAman
Smash Hero
I can write good summaries but only really on the match ups I am really 100% on. And know really well. I won't write one for a match up that I am not 100% sure on
Well, just state which matchups you'd like to write for and get to work. :DThe one requirement that I will impose for these is that only material that was discussed in the thread should really appear in the discussions in order to encourage as much neutrality as possible. The summary Bwett gave me for Samus is the one I'm going to go ahead and use for the Samus thread (unless there are any objections).
The new threads will be up this evening.
SOVAman
Smash Hero
I am knowledgeable on the DK, ICs, ROB, wario (meh), Sanke, D3 and other match ups i just don't feel like thinking about right now. I will start with those and move on from there.
I have nothing better to do for the beginning of this summer so I guess I will write match up guides :D
Edit: looks to me you have wrote about snake when i look back at the threads so I will start writing a DK one tomorrow.
I have nothing better to do for the beginning of this summer so I guess I will write match up guides :D
Edit: looks to me you have wrote about snake when i look back at the threads so I will start writing a DK one tomorrow.
Metatitan
Smash Master
I don't know Lil B you (and me of course) are both pretty bias and we really need someone who has no emotion about this at all. We honestly need someone who doesn't give a **** about who has the advantage or not and will simply state out the points. Or you can write them if during the matchup discussion we list out the points of the matchup that are confirmed. Point being, we need someone who is non-bias, non-emotionally attached to these types of discussions, and someone who will just write down the facts.
SOVAman
Smash Hero
@meta: I think my DK one isn't bias at all I can write match-ups guides I just can't argue little things that dont even take a huge impact on the match-up.
Turns out i have already written one in the DK thread but I want to add a gimp section.
How to fight DK:
I think DK can be a hard match up if you let him get momentum. This match up has to do with momentum and can go both ways.
From the very beginning you will want to try to camp with eggs and pivot grabs. As you do that try to figure out how he is approaching and think on how to punish it. So if you find out that the DK you are playing is mostly approaching with Bairs then you want to find out how to punish that. The best way to that is either a spot dodge or a pivot grab. If he is a approaching with SHed air dodges or empty SHs you should try to space him with Bairs. What you want to do in a match up is make your opponent get into bad positions and you punish it. For DK the best way to that is to camp him to force approaches. But you don't want to camp the whole match because eventually he will get inside and figure out your camp patterns. To avoid that mix it up with a few Dairs for damage and Bairs. Try to lower his shield so you can start poking his shield with Bairs and eggs. The best way to lower his shield is with eggs and consecutive hits like Dair. Once you see his shield getting weaker work you way inside and start using your fast moves like Nairs, jabs, tilts and bairs. Also occasional pivot grabs when inside. This match ups just requires you to stick to the basics and punish DKs lag. Now, KOing, KOing Dk is no easy task he is hard to gimp due to UpB and he is a very heavy character. So you are going to want to save your Upsmash, Uair and Fsmash. Now the hard part is landing the moves. Most of the time you should wait till DK is at about 125% before going for the KO because he is so heavy. The best way to land the KO is to punish his lag with a pivot Fsmash or hyphen Upsmash. But, there is other options that make KOing pretty easy in fact. If you know how to CG all you need to do is condition him with your CG so he try's to jump out then when he is at KO percentage. Start CGing him then before you get to the edge release him then dash SH Uair. If you are unsure about the release and CG you can look at my guide on CGing and release in the "how to hatch a healthy yoshi guide."
One last think don't try to force a KO because DK has a very fast SA Dk punch which will punish KO attempts. Also watch his range of his smash they WILL catch you off guard if your new to the match up.
Gimping DK:
Gimping DK can be easy if you know what your doing. His recovery is very different from other characters so you can't play it the same way as others. DKs recovery is a horizontal recovery which means he is going to be recovering horizontal of the stage. That makes his recovery pretty punishable with Dair. It can be a little tricky to land the Dair though. You will want to go directly above DK because hitting his arms will cause you to get hit instead of him. If you go directly above him with the Dair it will put him to low for UpB to recover. He lacks alot of vertical so he wont be recovering out of spikes at all. So take complete advantage of that. Also it is possible to land a run off Fair even while he is UpBing. Though this is hard and situational it is possible. You will have to know the timing to land a run off Fair in order to do this. To do this you will have to abuse the range of the Fair and go right below his UpB range (at his feet). The only way you can land it without you getting hit first is if you go right below his spinning arms.
btw: WATCH THE FOOTSTOOL after you land a Dair if he is at a lower percentage he can footstool you because the Dair wont spike him at low percentages. Due to the footstool DK will still be able to recover and you will be flying south. So only go for the Dair at higher percentages
Turns out i have already written one in the DK thread but I want to add a gimp section.
How to fight DK:
I think DK can be a hard match up if you let him get momentum. This match up has to do with momentum and can go both ways.
From the very beginning you will want to try to camp with eggs and pivot grabs. As you do that try to figure out how he is approaching and think on how to punish it. So if you find out that the DK you are playing is mostly approaching with Bairs then you want to find out how to punish that. The best way to that is either a spot dodge or a pivot grab. If he is a approaching with SHed air dodges or empty SHs you should try to space him with Bairs. What you want to do in a match up is make your opponent get into bad positions and you punish it. For DK the best way to that is to camp him to force approaches. But you don't want to camp the whole match because eventually he will get inside and figure out your camp patterns. To avoid that mix it up with a few Dairs for damage and Bairs. Try to lower his shield so you can start poking his shield with Bairs and eggs. The best way to lower his shield is with eggs and consecutive hits like Dair. Once you see his shield getting weaker work you way inside and start using your fast moves like Nairs, jabs, tilts and bairs. Also occasional pivot grabs when inside. This match ups just requires you to stick to the basics and punish DKs lag. Now, KOing, KOing Dk is no easy task he is hard to gimp due to UpB and he is a very heavy character. So you are going to want to save your Upsmash, Uair and Fsmash. Now the hard part is landing the moves. Most of the time you should wait till DK is at about 125% before going for the KO because he is so heavy. The best way to land the KO is to punish his lag with a pivot Fsmash or hyphen Upsmash. But, there is other options that make KOing pretty easy in fact. If you know how to CG all you need to do is condition him with your CG so he try's to jump out then when he is at KO percentage. Start CGing him then before you get to the edge release him then dash SH Uair. If you are unsure about the release and CG you can look at my guide on CGing and release in the "how to hatch a healthy yoshi guide."
One last think don't try to force a KO because DK has a very fast SA Dk punch which will punish KO attempts. Also watch his range of his smash they WILL catch you off guard if your new to the match up.
Gimping DK:
Gimping DK can be easy if you know what your doing. His recovery is very different from other characters so you can't play it the same way as others. DKs recovery is a horizontal recovery which means he is going to be recovering horizontal of the stage. That makes his recovery pretty punishable with Dair. It can be a little tricky to land the Dair though. You will want to go directly above DK because hitting his arms will cause you to get hit instead of him. If you go directly above him with the Dair it will put him to low for UpB to recover. He lacks alot of vertical so he wont be recovering out of spikes at all. So take complete advantage of that. Also it is possible to land a run off Fair even while he is UpBing. Though this is hard and situational it is possible. You will have to know the timing to land a run off Fair in order to do this. To do this you will have to abuse the range of the Fair and go right below his UpB range (at his feet). The only way you can land it without you getting hit first is if you go right below his spinning arms.
btw: WATCH THE FOOTSTOOL after you land a Dair if he is at a lower percentage he can footstool you because the Dair wont spike him at low percentages. Due to the footstool DK will still be able to recover and you will be flying south. So only go for the Dair at higher percentages
Links to all the matchup threads is on the first post of this thread lol.Individual threads are fine but really disorganized and links to each of these is needed (although you have probly done this, I didn't check) just like my moveset summary thread (which I would really like sticked plz
Also I think Metas moveset summary thread should be put on the Yoshis Island thread locator, actually now that I mention it someone needs to update the locator thread badly as I don't think Kiwi is active much anymore. With the locator thread we don't need to sticky every important thread and end up with a horribly cluttered board.
On the subject of matchup discussion...
I much prefer our current multiple-thread solution to the standard single-thread approach for the reasons Shiri listed. I also feel the OP in this thread should be used for the ratio chart and to provide a summary for each matchup just like the conventional matchup threads on other boards.
Although I don't think it would be best to have just one single person write the summary, having multiple people who have had experience of the matchup at a high level of play contribute to a matchup summary would ensure the summary is nice and well-rounded looking at the matchup from all different angles and perspectives and prevent any bias or over-centralisation on a single players limited experience. No single person can have complete knowledge of a matchup.
Yeah, I sent Kiwi the PM a while ago, so I'll just go ahead and update it myself.I can put Edreese's video thread up as well.
I have no qualms with putting the matchup chart in the first post of this thread.
If you guys want to group up and write summaries, please feel free. Make sure they are properly formatted and grammatically correct, though. Thanks. :D
Silent Beast
Smash Journeyman
Well it's not like you're coming up with a summary off the top of your head. You can just take information that was already discussed in the thread by people with matchup experience and put it together.
SOVAman
Smash Hero
One person who is very good at the match-up should write the summery using what others already contributed. Having multiple people writing one thing never works out.
like silent Beast sorta stated
like silent Beast sorta stated
Airborne
Smash Lord
Wuh-What do you mean!? It is blue, look... see!? <.< >.>
Rajam
Smash Champion
Why not throwing some matchups ratios in the OP?
YoshiIslander77z
Smash Apprentice
u should put a ratio next to the character names if u got the time, then if anyone dissagrees the match up can be discussed again
Rajam
Smash Champion
i agree. Mostly i was asking for ratios for my thread:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=226315
The ones that are there are from the last Yoshi's matchup thread. Ratios in the first post would be great.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=226315
The ones that are there are from the last Yoshi's matchup thread. Ratios in the first post would be great.
Syde7
The Sultan of Smut
Dun know if you cats still *look* in this thread, but the ROBs are talkin' about you & we'd like input. I'm comin' straight from making the topic, so by the time you get there, there may not be much that we've said. Anyway... thanks ahead of time.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=7765695#post7765695
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=7765695#post7765695
orangemarmalade9
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- Dec 28, 2006
- Messages
- 1
Is it just me, or is olimar mysteriously missing from this list?
Metatitan
Smash Master
We haven't done all the matchup discussions yet
YoshiIslander77z
Smash Apprentice
we should do the character summaries together, we are a smash COMMUNITY right?
hadesblade
Smash Lord
Yoshi isn't on there O:... seriously though dittos have to be like 20:80...
Let me know if I forgot any characters, LOL!
Metatitan
Smash Master
Yoshi dittos are so ****ed up but they're really fun. Tip: use rising Nair on Bwett. He loves/hates it.
Depster
Smash Champion
ugh I hate yoshi dittos...
I hate dittos with any character, but Yoshi dittos are the absolute worst.
You either love dittos or you hate them, evidently it seems most people hate them. I agree with hades, the Yoshi MU has to be at least 70:30.
YoshiIslander, I think we are doing it as a community effort rather than individually handling matchups. Just post your contribution to the matchup summary.
You either love dittos or you hate them, evidently it seems most people hate them. I agree with hades, the Yoshi MU has to be at least 70:30.
YoshiIslander, I think we are doing it as a community effort rather than individually handling matchups. Just post your contribution to the matchup summary.
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