Matchup Rediscussion: Zelda vs Zero Suit Samus

[Kataefi]

Matchup Rediscussion: Zero Suit Samus
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Zelda vs Zero Suit Samus


- What to know about this matchup...
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• ZSS has one primary goal - get Zelda in the air. Her agility and frame 4 Uair can target an aerial Zelda and keep her juggled very easily for excessive amounts of damage. Aim to DI as far away from her as possible and get down to the ground as quickly as possible.
  

• She has tools to put you in the air easily. Watch out for her frame 5 Dtilt that pops you up, giving her a decent followup game. Her frame 1 jab can cancel into a Dtilt. Try to DI away from this setup if possible.

• Beware of Armour Pieces. ZSS begins every match with 3 armour pieces that she can use to bait and punish you. Try to grab them. If you cannot, anticipate and spotdodge them so they pass through you and hopefully off the stage. Nayru's can be used as a mixup, but don't rely on it.

• She will probe Zelda from afar using Neutral B, Side B whip and Dsmash. Try to become accustomed to the animations here and attempt to powershield and counter on reaction. Nayru's is not a reliable reflector, but of course use it as a mixup if the ZSS charges in frequently.
  

• She has no truly viable OoS option against a couple of Zelda's moves. Space with Fsmash and she cannot counter this on shield. If she attempts to, simply throw up a shield as she won't be fast enough. Spaced Jabs on shield are also relatively safe due to its low cooldown and the lengthy speed of her grab.
  

• Try to NEVER use Farore's Wind as a recovery. The agility of ZSS combined with the range of her Side B Whip are enough to gimp Zelda very easily when she uses Farore's Wind. Additionally, failure to position your landing carefully with the teleport can give ZSS free Dsmash setups. Try your best to save your double jump using Nayru's Momentum Cancelling and use DI to recover as high as possible.
  

• Pressure her recovery with Din's Fire. ZSS has a very good recovery and is difficult to gimp through the use of her double jump, plasma whip recovery and flip stool. Jumping out to get at her cannot be done without taking risks. Pressuring with Din's Fire can force airdodges in hope that ZSS will miss the ledge.

• She can kill using Bair, Uair and Side B. Bair is her primary kill move here. Uair, when undecayed, can kill and does so better the closer you are to the top of the blastzone. Side B is a ranged KO at higher percents. Expect these moves to show up when at kill percents and be wary of her Dsmash that can set up for these kill moves through its stun time.
  

• If ZSS ever does approach you, it's always through the air. Her ground approaches tend to be very bad. She will approach through the air but at angles where she will still remain safe from the retribution of Zelda's Usmash and other anti-air options.

- Useful Information...
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• ZSS is tall and light and so a few tricks can be abused by Zelda. This includes Bair OoS on ZSS jabs and tilts as such moves don't have much shield pushback. Additionally, Dtilt offers sizeable frame advantages from 40-50% onwards; the later the better. Abuse the followups from Dtilt to rack damage on her and kill with a power move if possible. She dies early, Zelda kills early - this is a good combination for Zelda if she can successfully land those moves.

• Beware of the Dash Attack Lock! Dash Attack can lock characters depending on the level of its decay. Zelda is no exception. Anticipate the move to not get caught in the lock, otherwise there's not much that can be done to escape it!
  

• ZSS' Dsmash and Neutral B stun and lead to true combos. If you are hit by any of these moves, mash the buttons to recover from the stun as quickly as possible! A common combo at higher percents is Dsmash stun > Bair for the kill from ZSS.

• Her flip stool has invincibility and spiking properties on its initial frames. Her flipstool kick is a sex kick that lingers and never loses its strength throughout the whole duration of the move! It's initial frames will spike. The move also has brief invincibility.
  

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[sasook]

I like to think of this matchup as a spider vs a mosquito, or something. Basically, a mosquito can fly around and annoy the spider like crazy, and is hard to hit or catch. BUT once they're caught or hit, they're in serious trouble.

Same goes for this matchup. ZSS is reeeeally good at combos, she's really fast, and she's hard to hit. She can chip away damage from Zelda pretty easily, and rather quickly.

But on the flip side, once Zelda lands an attack, that attack HURTS. Zelda's smashes are strong as is, but on a light character like ZSS, that's not good for her.


Basically, ZSS' primary goal is to get you in the air. That's where she *****......everyone, pretty much. Especially her uair. Don't underestimate that move, it's probably as disjointed as Zelda's (I'm not kidding, that move is legit broken). Expect that move to get stale fast. And... the more stale it gets, the more it combos you.

ZSS' weak spot is beneath her. Luckily for Zelda, usmash and uair and utilt... are wonderful. So in essence, both players want the opponent above them.

ZSS has a good momentum cancel, and despite popular belief, has a very good recovery. Don't think you'll gimp a good ZSS any time soon. After DI, she has a decent momentum cancel (4 frame uair), and then she can jump (which goes a decent height) or boost jump if needed (using upb to boost her height even more than regular jump.... similar to love jumps, without the tumble), and a third, downb flipjump. This flipjump can footstool off just about anything, keep in mind. That means you too. Even when you're on the ledge, edgehogging.

Yes, I'm gonna repeat that last part. Even when you're on the ledge, edgehogging.


Should ZSS not choose to flipstool, but rather flipkick, be wary. That kick, no matter how long it stays out, is really strong, and spikes in the initial frames. The most common setup for this is dsmashing offstage -> downb kick. If the opponent is a little lower, the ZSS will run off and bair stage spike instead.

Oh, that reminds me. Be REALLY precise when you're recovering with FW. Like seriously, one little mistake = free dsmash from ZSS. And that's a bad thing for you.


ZSS' metagame used to revolve around spamming her sideb, the plasma whip. This isn't the case anymore. She's more combo oriented, and now her whip is more of a KO move. Expect it offstage, or when she's at range, it's strong when fresh.


Her OoS options generally are dtilt, which is a great combo starter, her 3 frame utilt, and her uair. Her bair is safe on block (not that Zelda shieldgrabs anyway), and her uair has a sourspot near the end which is another great combo starter.


So.... that's ZSS. There's stuff I didn't mention, but I'll wait for others to comment before I speak more.


As for Zelda, and what she should do. As said, you wanna get ZSS above you. She has no safe options beneath her, her dair has pretty bad landing lag. Generally, you won't be seeing many grabs from ZSS, but just know she does have an fthrow buffered CG. PS the whip whenever you see it, and try to land many usmashes lol. I'm not sure how effective dsmash is as a KO move, given ZSS boost jump + flip jump recovery, but give it a shot anyway.


I can't say much else because I know ZSS better than Zelda, but to me as of right now, I'd put this as 60:40 ZSS.


Feel free to correct me on anything I said which was wrong. Hope this helps.

 

[KayLo!]

Watch out for her jab at close range. The first hit comes out extremely fast, and chances are she'll cancel it into a grab, dtilt, or what have you. Rarely will ZSS players finish the full jab since the second or third hit (I forget which one) can be blocked relatively easily even if you get hit with the first.

Shield the paralyzer shots. If you Naryu's, it probably won't reflect all the way back onto her, and she can dash attack/grab you out of NL's cooldown since it lasts so ****ing long.

I keep mentioning grabs, but realistically, ZSS won't be grabbing all that often unless it's 100% guaranteed.... because her whiffed grab animation is long as ****. Like sasook said, she'll mostly be trying to get you into the air and then combo you from below.

She excels at a mid range that's farther out than Zelda can handle, so you have to find a way to get inside of her to do damage. She's also extremely hard to hit and can down b (flip jump) out of most "combos" Zelda can pull off, so it'll be tricky. Perfect shielding her side b as you approach and punishing with dash attack/dash-canceled grab is a viable strategy if you find an opportunity to do so.

I'll try to add more later. My one friend plays a decent ZSS, so I have some experience but not a bunch.

 

[sasook]

Watch out for her jab at close range. The first hit comes out extremely fast, and chances are she'll cancel it into a grab, dtilt, or what have you. Rarely will ZSS players finish the full jab since the second or third hit (I forget which one) can be blocked relatively easily even if you get hit with the first.

Yeah, KLo's right about her jab. It's a 1 frame jab.


Though, ZSS players don't think highly of her jab at all. She can't properly jab cancel so... it's just used for interruption, really.

i.e. Jab canceled grab/dtilt/uair can all be avoided pretty easily.



The third jab can be PS'd really easily.

 

[zeldspazz]

Zelda:

+Much better KO possibilities
+ZSS, being tall and light just like Zelda, is susesptable to early kills as muhc as we are.
+SH Bair OoS kills early and she is tall enough to be hit easily
+Can edgehog tether, forcing ZSS to use her flip jump
+Overall better ground game
+Easy to KO while underneath ZSS
+NL can relfect her neutral b, but only do this when its fully charged and your sure it will make it back, otherwise its a free grab whether it hits you or not.
+Dins can knock her off her tether, and interrupt her downb while recovering
-Light, with no very effective move to cancel momentum with
-Easily comboed in the air
-Sweetspot the ledge while recovering, or you get a dsmash to the face.
-Weak while ZSS is below her



ZSS

+Much better aerial game overall
+Faster Aerials for great DI, making ZSS live considerably longer than Zelda dispite them both beign very light
+A good ZSS knows how to not get gimped.
+Easily comboes in the air
+Dsmash opens up free KOs at high percentages, Free comboes at low percentages. Also a free stage spike oppurtunity if it hits you on the ledge after invincibility frames end.
+Faster Ground Speed
+Two moves that stun
+Good Dash attack with combo oppurtunities
+Two moves with meteor possibilities (up-b and downb)
-Few effective KO moves (bair, downb kick, fair to an extent, and uair if not stale)
-Overall inferior ground game
-Weak while Zelda is below her
-Although uncommon, edgehogging can still be effective for stopping those tethers
-A failed grab is horribly punishable

The Ground:

This matchup is a little bit tricky for Zelda, but no where near unwinnable. Your going to have to try and stay grounded in this since Zelda's overall ground game is better than ZSS. Watch for her blaster, and never sheild this up close. Either spot dodge if it's not charged all the way, or do a SH air dodge if it is. ZSS is trying to get you to:

1) Shield: Free Grab
2) Get hit by it: Free everything.

When shooting a weak shot, she is usually going to follow up immediately with a grab, because she is expecting you to shield. By spotdodging, you can avoid the blaster and the grab, and punich hard. Watch for well spaced side-bs, they have massive range and the hurtbox stays out longer than youd think. This is her main killer in ther ground, so be careful at high percentages. Try not to let her get close, dash attack->utilt->up-b is a very popular and effective combo at low percentage. Try to get her out of that close range with Dsmash or NL if she's coming from behind. Fsmash is also great for keeping her away. Her Dsmash is brutal for obvious reasons, do not get caught by that at late percentages.

The Air:

In the air, she has the advantage. She's going to try and to juggle you a ton with uair and if you get too far away she might try for an upb to get you back. Bair Kills when fresh, and a sweetspotted fair does 17 damage I believe, so watch it. Try to stay under her, her dair is bad, and our uair is good. Vise versa however, so if your in the air, stay under her and get back to ground as soon as you can. However, if you see an oppening, by all means go for that fair/bair kill, she is very tall and light, so the key to fighting her in the air is dodging, and looking for those oppurtunities to attack, because one hit by us is more devistating than one hit by her.

Recovering:

Ok, both character have a little bit of a hard time recovering. ZSS is going to try to recover high, since then she doesnt have to be forced to use her tethers. Ways she does this is DIing up and Boost Jumping for additional height. Try to get her offstage with a Dsmash, since this forces her to recovery parallel to the stage, so edgehogging is waaaay easier this way. BEWARE OF DOWN B. That thing packs a punch, spikes at certain frames, and can flipstool you when your hanging on the edge whether you have invincibility frames or not. Zelda is going to be having a difficult time recovering as well, since if she doesnt sweetspot the ledge, thats a free Dsmash for ZSS. Recoverying from high up can be risky too, since her up-b has a pretty big vertical range, and can meteor you.



Sypnosis: 45:55 ZSS advantage

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I think you're wrong about ZSS recovery.

 

[zeldspazz]

I think you're wrong about ZSS recovery.

Me? This is just my experience fighting zero suit samus's. When I chat with them afterwords, they tell me what I just wrote down. Whats your view on her recovery?

 

[KayLo!]

Legendary, maybe you should be more specific, yeah?

The only thing I'd say is wrong, after skimming, is zeld's saying that ZSS has trouble recovering. Most ZSS players don't have much trouble recovering at all as far as I've seen, and her recovery is definitely much better than ours.

 

[zeldspazz]

Legendary, maybe you should be more specific, yeah?

The only thing I'd say is wrong, after skimming, is zeld's saying that ZSS has trouble recovering. Most ZSS players don't have much trouble recovering at all as far as I've seen, and her recovery is definitely much better than ours.

Which is why I put in ZSS's pro: Good ZSS's dont get gimped. They have some issues when recovering parallel to the stage, since the can be forced to use their tethers at some point. Yes, though, ZSS has an easier time recovering than Zelda, but her process of recovering takes some more thinking power and theres more room for mistake imo.

 

[sasook]

+Two moves with meteor possibilities (up-b and downb)

3, actually. Her dair spikes as well. You won't see it too often, but on stages where she can hit through the floor, it's effective. (like Halberd, Delfino, etc.)

-Few effective KO moves (bair, downb kick, fair to an extent, and uair if not stale)

Her sideb as well.

When shooting a weak shot, she is usually going to follow up immediately with a grab, because she is expecting you to shield.

Not true at all, IMO. ZSS players rarely grab, if ever. So much to the point that they don't even acknowledge it as part of their game half the time. Not only is her grab horribly punishable, but the actual throws themselves are just meh.

After a weak shot, a more common thing would probably be dash attack -> utilt, which is a true combo, and does like.... ~18%, IIRC.

Her Dsmash is brutal for obvious reasons, do not get caught by that at late percentages.

Or any percentages really, lol. That move is her best combo starter by far, it's deadly. Oh, and be careful about the range. It's deceptive, it goes a bit further out than what you actually see.

Recovering:

Ok, both character have a little bit of a hard time recovering. ZSS is going to try to recover high, since then she doesnt have to be forced to use her tethers. Ways she does this is DIing up and Boost Jumping for additional height. Try to get her offstage with a Dsmash, since this forces her to recovery parallel to the stage, so edgehogging is waaaay easier this way. BEWARE OF DOWN B. That thing packs a punch, spikes at certain frames, and can flipstool you when your hanging on the edge whether you have invincibility frames or not.

Just wanna throw in here that if you don't time your edgehog well, ZSS can fair/sideb you on the edge for a possible stage spike, and then tether the ledge herself. Edgeguarding ZSS is hard, not gonna lie.



A tip: if you can predict when a ZSS is gonna boost jump, use Din's from a distance (so that the hitbox gets larger) and time it so it'll hit her during the boost jump. Reason being, during a boost jump, the player has to input a jump + upb. Meaning, they'll be holding up.

Holding up near the top of the screen + din's = profit

Not matchup changing or anything, and situational as well, but a handy trick to keep in mind.

 

[zeldspazz]

3, actually. Her dair spikes as well. You won't see it too often, but on stages where she can hit through the floor, it's effective. (like Halberd, Delfino, etc.)

Lol, I see that so rarely I forgot about it XD



Her sideb as well.

Forgot that, but I think I added its a KO move in the ground description

Not true at all, IMO. ZSS players rarely grab, if ever. So much to the point that they don't even acknowledge it as part of their game half the time. Not only is her grab horribly punishable, but the actual throws themselves are just meh.

After a weak shot, a more common thing would probably be dash attack -> utilt, which is a true combo, and does like.... ~18%, IIRC.

I play a couple decent ZSS's a lot, and they seem to like the grab at really low percentages. *Shrugs* everyone plays different I suppose. And yes, I stated that combo I believe.


Or any percentages really, lol. That move is her best combo starter by far, it's deadly. Oh, and be careful about the range. It's deceptive, it goes a bit further out than what you actually see.

I stated that its bad at every percentage and on the ledge in ZSS pros/con list


Just wanna throw in here that if you don't time your edgehog well, ZSS can fair/sideb you on the edge for a possible stage spike, and then tether the ledge herself. Edgeguarding ZSS is hard, not gonna lie.



A tip: if you can predict when a ZSS is gonna boost jump, use Din's from a distance (so that the hitbox gets larger) and time it so it'll hit her during the boost jump. Reason being, during a boost jump, the player has to input a jump + upb. Meaning, they'll be holding up.

Holding up near the top of the screen + din's = profit

Not matchup changing or anything, and situational as well, but a handy trick to keep in mind.

Yeah, I forgot to add that Dins is good for edgeguarding. And, you kinda gotta be the right distance away to do that, and on place with large blast zones, getting hit with a dsmash could ruin that ledgespike. Its all situational really, still a possibility to keep in mind though. Like I said, ZSS has a great recovery, its just it takes some thinking through and there is room for error

^ I guess I forgot a thing or two. I was rushing cus my friend was pestering me to brawl XD

 

[-Mars-]

65-35 ZSS advantage. She has so many safe zoning options against Zelda not too mention destroying Zelda in the air and just outspeeding her in every way possible.

She also ***** Zelda's recovery. Imo one of Zelda's harder matchups.

 

[★Malik★™]

Not true at all, IMO. ZSS players rarely grab, if ever. So much to the point that they don't even acknowledge it as part of their game half the time. Not only is her grab horribly punishable, but the actual throws themselves are just meh.

After a weak shot, a more common thing would probably be dash attack -> utilt, which is a true combo, and does like.... ~18%, IIRC.

i grab all the time, i use it for my advantage. shoot.

yeah, usually i'll do that or (depending on what stage i'm on like FD) i'll dash attack, dash attack (yes it's possible), or the amount it takes for them to fall off the stage, then they'll fall off the stage and jump and try to get back, then i'll down smash,wait, jump and fspecial (forward b).or i'll do all that, but at the time when they're paralyzed, i'll wait, jump and uAir. that's just me. (be quite malik, you're telling your moves.)

 

[mountain_tiger]

I'm going to say that this matchup is around 35:65 ZSS' favour. It's really hard if she knows what to do.

Let's look at Zelda's advantages. Well, for a start, we kill her early. ZSS is very light, and thus is easy to kill at around 100%+. DSmash is particularly detrimental. If she DIs up to try and recover without using her tether, then she has more chance of dying. If she doesn't DI she'll probably have to use one of her tethers. Lightning kicks are also feasible because ZSS is really tall. Although we kill better than her, she can still kill us at around 110% with Bair, Plasma Whip or Fair (assuming they kept them fresh).

In addition, ZSS' ooS game is somewhat lacking, so shield pressuring her is useful if you can. FSmash works well here. Her main ooS options to look out for are Nair, Fair and UTilt. That's another advantage we have. If she tries to grab you and fails, then for goodness' sake punish her. It's a free lightning kick that you shouldn't miss out on.

Other than that, ZSS has a lot of stuff on us. For a start, those armor pieces can **** us, thanks to their good knockback and weird bouncing properties. And ZSS' glide toss helps out a lot too. If you can catch them, then you can try to use it against her, but sine Zelda's mobility is generally inferior and her combo opportunities less, you can't use them as efficiently. If you're really getting pummelled by them, throw them away.

Then there's the fact that she can really **** our recovery. Bair and Fair are both quick and have good knockback, easily intercepting Zelda. In fact, unless you manage to sweetspot the ledge, she can simply DSmash, then down B spike, which can kill at almost any percent. However, you can't do the same back. She has a large second jump and Flip Jump to recover without having to resort to her tethers. You can try to attack her, but be careful if you do, because she can spike you soon after starting Flip Jump. Oh, and it has invincibility frames too. Din's Fire can help if you predict it though, but only do that if you knwo she's going to recover, because although it does soem damage, it probably won't kill and allows her to recover with ease.

If there's one thing to learn about this matchup, YOU DO NOT WANT TO BE ABOVE HER! Seriously, that's just about the worst place you can be. Her Uair can outdo your Dair (not like her Dair ever helps anyway), and if you try to airdodge it she can do another Uair before you can recover. Really, her Uair is too good. In addition, USmash and up B can harass you with no risk to ZSS herself, and since Zelda is floaty she'll have trouble gettign back to the ground. Farore's Wind isn't recommended due to the high ending lag. Add in that ZSS can get Zelda into the air with relative ease (DThrow, UTilt and DTilt all do this very well), and you've got a major problem.

However, if she's above you that can help too. USmash, UTilt and Uair can all pester her when she's in the air above you, though unlike us she has a couple of ways to deal with it. She can Flip Jump to avoid the attack and come back with her own kick soon after, or she can use Dair to get to the ground quickly (though if you can predict this you can punish her because it has lots of landing lag). However, ZSS has more reliable ways than us of getting her opponent in the air.

Have I mentioned her DSmash combos yet? Well, yeah, I'm sure you know how painful those can be. DSmash can be followed up with pretty much anything, and if they do double DSmash to an attack you take almost 40% damage, a third of the damage needed to kill you! DSmash can be used to punsih roll dodges and spot dodges you make, or even if you overshoot the ledge or, as previously mentioned, do not sweetspot it in any way.

She also has other combos up her sleeve, which usually involve dash attack, sometimes Nair as well. She can 'dash attack lock' across the stage, or she can simply follow with a UTilt or DTilt to ghet you in the air. ZSS also thrives at spacing against Zelda. She'll try to get you so that she can hit you with Plasma Whip or Nair, and you can't use Din's because it's too laggy and punishable. Try and get in closer to her if you can. ZSS still does decent at close-range, but you'd rather have her there than mid-range, trust me.

OK, I could go on for longer, but I'm getting a bit bored of typing all this up. If I had to put a ratio on it.... I guess I'd go for 65:35. It's very hard to win against her if she plays her cards right. The biggest problem is that if she gets you off-stage and you can't sweetspot the ledge, you're screwed. Her Uair juggling, ease of getting us in the air and her DSmash combos are also very annoying.

 

[Veggie123]

Let's see...I talk about Zelda's fsmash in like every post I make and I will continue to do so, but I'll mention some other moves that can work :embarrass

Against fast and speedy characters like Sheik and ZSS, fsmash camping is not a good idea. While extremely tough to punish the afterlag, its start up is really slow which makes it easy to interrupt with the right moveset. So against these characters, I tend to resort to Zelda's "faster" moves in attempt to challenge that speed. In particular, dtilt, dsmash, nair.

Dtilt outranges ZSSs 1 frame jab and is relatively quick, probably on par with ZSSs other tilts in range/speed. It's also fast enough to stop an incoming dsmash, but it won't cancel out the attack (or her neutral b for that matter). Her dsmash outranges dtilt, but since she takes a step forward when she uses it, she tends to walk into a dtilt. Her dsmash is also very slow so if you plan on using dtilt to stop a dsmash, you have around 14~ frames to do so (of course Zelda's dsmash is fine too). It's DEFINITELY not a surefire way to prevent getting hit, but we all know dtilt is a good move so you should be using it anyway

For dsmash, look above, and it's more laggy. It usually stales for me, but ZSS is light enough for it to not be a big deal. Nair, fair/bair are pretty easy to land on a grounded ZSS thanks to her tall frame and are very good out of shield options for Zelda. Nair especially if you want to keep certain attacks fresh. LKs will kill early which is good for damage rackers like ZSS and in general. Uair is strong, good luck landing it.

Usmash is kind of like the opposite of fsmash, you get killed by the afterlag if you whiff. I usually reserve it for kills, it helps that it's quick. People claim that it's easy for ZSS to DI usmash but the only time I've seen her get out of it is when she gets caught in the air. Quarter Circle DI won't get her very far in terms of escaping usmash.

I can't say I can really recommend jab, it's pretty slow and ZSS gets pushed back too far most of the time to do any sort of follow up and dash attack is decent but not safe on shield.

No to ftilt unless you can land it at 0%, at which point proceed to jab then running usmash, her aerials aren't fast enough to prevent Zelda from chasing. Utilt is probably best after a fresh dtilt pops ZSS up in the air. Usmash hardly stales for me so it's used as a backup kill move.

Just listing things off really, a lot of matchup stuff has been covered already

 

[choknater]

If you DI high, and then use ZSS' down b toward the stage before your jump, your recovery should just fine as long as you just try to land on the stage. It's just like recovering with Ivy or Olimar, except even better because of down-B. Don't underestimate the recovery of tether characters. You should only be forced to tether if you are like 130+ percent.

Just saying.

 

[sasook]

To show how versatile ZSS' recovery really is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmfGERA5A5U

2:46

 

[choknater]

LMAO wow that was amazing.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

This match-up is extremely stage defendant and Zelda can easily swing the match-up in her favor by going to a flat stage like Final Destination. I agree that on just about any other type of stage (especially Battlefield) Zelda gets ***** pretty hard.

You really want to ban Battlefield IMO. You will have next to no options and get ***** if the ZSS player is worth their salt. I have two- and three-stocked good Zelda players on that stage because of how hard ZSS can own with platforms. It's not a pretty sight.

...And then, they CP FD or Smashville and things become a lot more difficult. Zelda's camping game becomes a lot more effective. It doesn't sound like it should matter a lot, but it can mean the difference between games and sets.

BTW, Zelda and ZSS' recovery aren't even comparable. ZSS has very strong versatile recovery and Zelda... does not. It's very easy to get dsmashed while recovering if ZSS knows the match-up. So just make sure you recover at an intelligent angle or aim for the ledge (and get up immediately of course).

If you play Sheik, go Sheik, heh. It's one of ZSS' worst match-ups and Zelda is one of her easiest.

 

[mountain_tiger]

This match-up is extremely stage defendant and Zelda can easily swing the match-up in her favor by going to a flat stage like Final Destination. I agree that on just about any other type of stage (especially Battlefield) Zelda gets ***** pretty hard.

Really? I mean, I know ZSS does muich better on stages with platforms, but I wouldn't go so far to say that it's in Zelda's favour on Final Destination. Less of a disadvantage, yes, but still at least slightly in ZSS' favour. I mean, the edges **** Zelda's recovery even more!

I agree with Battlefield being a stage that should definitely be banned against ZSS, though.

 

[choknater]

Yeah, I'd much rather use Sheik for this matchup, lol.

 

[zeldspazz]

Yeah, I'd much rather use Sheik for this matchup, lol.

But......I like a challenge

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I've never had THAT many problems with ZSS. not that she's not tough, but she's never seemed 65:35 tough to me. I don't disagree with points made here, but I will say that they seem not to make as large an impact as suggested, at least in my experience. And a large part of how I do depends on the stage.

 

[FIERCE]

I main both and use them in tournament on&off but I find the Zelda/ZSS matchup to be quite easy for me even against good Zero Suits (although this may be due to the fact that Zeldas are rare sights in tournament and I know how most ZSS's play).

I find that Zelda (if aggressive) can dash attack or space with f-smashes from the front and the only thing to watch out for are oos grabs (which are rare because ZSS's grab is pretty bad) or jabs. I actually love it when they try to complete the jab combo (or stop midway knowing I'll shield) because it's always a guaranteed lightning kick out of shield. It's a bit towards Zero Suits advantage but I wouldn't say by much.

 

[Tien2500]

I main both and use them in tournament on&off but I find the Zelda/ZSS matchup to be quite easy for me even against good Zero Suits (although this may be due to the fact that Zeldas are rare sights in tournament and I know how most ZSS's play).

I find that Zelda (if aggressive) can dash attack or space with f-smashes from the front and the only thing to watch out for are oos grabs (which are rare because ZSS's grab is pretty bad) or jabs. I actually love it when they try to complete the jab combo (or stop midway knowing I'll shield) because it's always a guaranteed lightning kick out of shield. It's a bit towards Zero Suits advantage but I wouldn't say by much.

Well my question would simply be... why is a competent ZSS be completing a jab combo? If they stop midway they should be able to get away/shield before you can get a lightning kick out. I'm pretty sure Zelda's dash attack is not safe here. At best if it blocks you'll be jabbed and I would think that ZSS can also Utilt you into a vulnerable position. If you get predictable with Fsmash you can be punished too.

Zelda's approach isn't good at all and ZSS shouldn't really need to approach. If ZSS stays at mid range there isn't too much Zelda can do. Din's fire is too slow to be useful except at very long ranges. Aside from that Zelda can't do much at long range and getting into close range is going to be difficult for her. Not to mention staying at close range...

Zelda does have better KO ability but all of her KO moves are going to be tough to land. She lacks good setups. Dtilt comes to mind but I'm not sure what else. Basically Zelda has to wait for a mistake and punish it. If ZSS is playing safely this shouldn't be too much of a problem.

ZSS also has an advantage offstage. Fair and Bair can both get KOs as well as side B and situationally up B and down B. If Zelda can't sweetspot the edge she's in trouble.

ZSS' recovery is pretty safe. Zelda doesn't have a good offstage game. I wouldn't advise even trying. Din's fire is your best bet. The only way you *might* get a gimp is off Dsmash but even that will be tough. ZSS can wallkick bounce off edgeguarders with flip jump and has a very long tether.

When it comes to ZSS Koing she has decent options. If she's not using side B to space she has that. Uair, Bair, and fair can although Uair is likely to be diminished. Down B can KO, although thats hardly safe. Dsmash sets up for any KO move.

Honestly I have a hard time really thinking of anything but the power advantage going for Zelda in this match. Zelda has the advantage at long range but no way to really keep ZSS there. At midrange ZSS dominates. At close range I'd say ZSS has a slight advantage. In the air its not even close. Its even debatable whether or not Zelda has a better grab game. So unless someone can point out an advantage Zelda has that I'm not seeing I'd say 65:35 is a fair ratio. Personally Zelda is probably the easiest matchup for me besides Fox.

The only thing Zelda has against ZSS is her Down B. Seriously there is no reason to use Zelda in this matchup.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I never thought this match up was bad for Zelda.

 

[FIERCE]

I just got back from Bio III and decided to try out Zelda against a Ranked (top 3 in Nor Cal ) Zero Suit Samus player Saturday and pretty much wrecked him. By perfect shielding U-tilts, jabs, and side+B's it just became a "How many lightning kicks can I land on him" tournament match. For starters, I believe Zelda can land two Upsmashes at 0% and if they down B out of it, it's fairly easy to punish by chasing them and approaching with a dash before they land because the hitbox will last a while.

I think pretty much every move in Zelda's arsenal has KO ability and Zero Suit might have to approach if I just camp and attempt to mindgame with Din's Fire.

Because of her speed I give ZSS a slight advantage - but if everything is getting Power Shielded you're in trouble.

 

[GodAtHand]

I played a few friendlies with Dazwa (One of the best ZSS) and this could be 60-40, but really no more than that in ZSS favor. Killing for ZSS can be really tough if you know the spacing of her moves. Neither of them want to be in the air over the other character because that is their most vulnerable place. And believe it or not Din's is pretty useful against ZSS.

Now stage wise flat is better... and ZSS is good with platforms, but the only reason I would ban bf is if you for some odd reason have a hard time not standing on top of the platforms... just avoid being on top of the platforms and you should be o.k. ZSS is going to avoid being on them as well.

 

[Tien2500]

I just got back from Bio III and decided to try out Zelda against a Ranked (top 3 in Nor Cal ) Zero Suit Samus player Saturday and pretty much wrecked him. By perfect shielding U-tilts, jabs, and side+B's it just became a "How many lightning kicks can I land on him" tournament match. For starters, I believe Zelda can land two Upsmashes at 0% and if they down B out of it, it's fairly easy to punish by chasing them and approaching with a dash before they land because the hitbox will last a while.

I think pretty much every move in Zelda's arsenal has KO ability and Zero Suit might have to approach if I just camp and attempt to mindgame with Din's Fire.

Because of her speed I give ZSS a slight advantage - but if everything is getting Power Shielded you're in trouble.

Can you elaborate on this a bit? Which jabs what were you perfect shielding? I'm pretty sure the jab combo is safe unless they do the third hit and if the dude completes his jab more than like once in a given match against a character with a strong punishing game... then I don't know how they'd be a top ZSS player. Utilt is very laggy and really should only be used when buffered out of a dash attack (which is a true combo and can't be blocked) or as a punishing move. It has lag at the end but it comes out on I believe frame three. But we know its one of our laggiest moves so its not something a good ZSS player should be throwing out too much. She should be using it in this match after shielding/powershielding something laggy. Like a dash attack mainly and possibly an Usmash.

As for side B is Zelda actually fast enough to get in a lightning kick when blocking it at the tip? Or is this only when blocking it up close?

I played a few friendlies with Dazwa (One of the best ZSS) and this could be 60-40, but really no more than that in ZSS favor. Killing for ZSS can be really tough if you know the spacing of her moves. Neither of them want to be in the air over the other character because that is their most vulnerable place. And believe it or not Din's is pretty useful against ZSS.

Now stage wise flat is better... and ZSS is good with platforms, but the only reason I would ban bf is if you for some odd reason have a hard time not standing on top of the platforms... just avoid being on top of the platforms and you should be o.k. ZSS is going to avoid being on them as well.

Well the thing with platforms isn't that you'll be standing on them. Its that it makes it very tough for Zelda to land once she's launched. Zelda can use them too but ZSS does so better, being able to hit all three platforms and having supperior vertical air speed.

Likewise Zelda is more vulnerable from below due to ZSS' air speed, better vertical range, and better Uair.

I don't think that Din's fire should be useful against someone with ZSS' speed. Can you explain this a bit more?

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I can't really weigh in much.

I've wrecked every ZSS that I've played, but I think a really good one could give zelda trouble.

I'd be fairly certain that neither character hd too large of an advantage though. Somewhere from 55:45-60:40

 

[Kataefi]

Snakeee would have good info on this matchup considering he mains both at high level.

 

[GodAtHand]

I don't think that Din's fire should be useful against someone with ZSS' speed. Can you explain this a bit more?

I am kinda sure that ZSS does not have an ariel move that neutralizes Dins. So when offstage she is either forced to get hit by it, or air dodge. Air dodging could put her in a bad recovery position and getting hit means she is a lot closer to death with Zelda.

Din's still isn't great, but compared to how useful it is against others she is worse off.

I would say 60-40 ZSS, I definitely would not give her anymore. If I had known we were doing this before SNES I would have asked Snakee for some friendlies... Actually I should have anyways... I am too **** shy.

 

[-Mars-]

Don't worry Riot I always get ***** by my shyness as well

 

[Snakeee]

Snakeee would have good info on this matchup considering he mains both at high level.

Thanks! I'll see what I've got off the top of my head...
Well, it's honestly a pretty strong favor for ZSS, but nothing like unwinnable. If you happen to play Sheik as well, this is the time to use her because that match up is slightly in Sheik's favor.

It's a weird match up, because they both are often unable to punish the other much at all. It's almost a complete spacing game, but when one person makes a big mistake they are in a lot of trouble for both chars.

ZSS has to approach from the air a lot, because her ground game actually kind of sucks. The only advantages on the ground for her in this match up seem to be that Zelda gets popped into the air more easily than a lot of other characters. Because of this, she can become vulnerable to ZSS' jabs and dash attack lock. Of course, Zelda still has the advantage on the ground by a long shot. If they play ZSS like my olden days (which most still do unfortunately), just become accustomed to powershielding side B and D-smash on reaction, and you can probably run up and upsmash her afterwards.

ZSS has no truly viable out of shield option to grounded attacks, so Zelda's ground spacing should be even more effective here. If ZSS tries to punish spaced f-smashes with one of her B moves or d-smash it really shouldn't work because they are so slow starting up. You should always have time to shield them I believe.

You have to really keep things grounded, but it's really like that for about all of Zelda's match ups. However, it's the most important in this one. ZSS' juggle game is comparable, or even better than, Metaknight's juggling. Saying you're going to have a hard time landing is an understatement.

Edgeguarding is very strongly in ZSS' favor. Zelda has a truly difficult time recovering against her because ZSS can easily reach any point or height off the stage, and Zelda's Up B is so slow. If you can reach the stage without using it, that may be for the best, but you still have to avoid her B-airs. When ZSS sees an Up B coming, it's really the only time her Side B is really useful.
Zelda on the other hand cannot really edgeguard ZSS without taking significant risks where it's not really worth it unless you make a pure read. If you do expect a tether perfectly, you can actually spike her as it comes out, because it has significant lag. I don't recommend this, but even I sometimes make that occasional leap of faith lol.

As with any match up in singles, I find Din's fire useless, so don't bother with it. It doesn't mess with ZSS' recovery all that much....well actually if she does decide to tether you can hit her with that as it comes out so only in that case it would be useful. I, myself, try to avoid tethering if I can reach the stage otherwise in this match up.

I am kinda sure that ZSS does not have an ariel move that neutralizes Dins. So when offstage she is either forced to get hit by it, or air dodge. Air dodging could put her in a bad recovery position and getting hit means she is a lot closer to death with Zelda.

Din's still isn't great, but compared to how useful it is against others she is worse off.

I would say 60-40 ZSS, I definitely would not give her anymore. If I had known we were doing this before SNES I would have asked Snakee for some friendlies... Actually I should have anyways... I am too **** shy.

Heh, np so am I. All well, next time.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Thanks! I'll see what I've got off the top of my head...
Well, it's honestly a pretty strong favor for ZSS, but nothing like unwinnable. If you happen to play Sheik as well, this is the time to use her because that match up is slightly in Sheik's favor.

It's a weird match up, because they both are often unable to punish the other much at all. It's almost a complete spacing game, but when one person makes a big mistake they are in a lot of trouble for both chars.

ZSS has to approach from the air a lot, because her ground game actually kind of sucks. The only advantages on the ground for her in this match up seem to be that Zelda gets popped into the air more easily than a lot of other characters. Because of this, she can become vulnerable to ZSS' jabs and dash attack lock. Of course, Zelda still has the advantage on the ground by a long shot. If they play ZSS like my olden days (which most still do unfortunately), just become accustomed to powershielding side B and D-smash on reaction, and you can probably run up and upsmash her afterwards.

ZSS has no truly viable out of shield option to grounded attacks, so Zelda's ground spacing should be even more effective here. If ZSS tries to punish spaced f-smashes with one of her B moves or d-smash it really shouldn't work because they are so slow starting up. You should always have time to shield them I believe.

You have to really keep things grounded, but it's really like that for about all of Zelda's match ups. However, it's the most important in this one. ZSS' juggle game is comparable, or even better than, Metaknight's juggling. Saying you're going to have a hard time landing is an understatement.

Edgeguarding is very strongly in ZSS' favor. Zelda has a truly difficult time recovering against her because ZSS can easily reach any point or height off the stage, and Zelda's Up B is so slow. If you can reach the stage without using it, that may be for the best, but you still have to avoid her B-airs. When ZSS sees an Up B coming, it's really the only time her Side B is really useful.
Zelda on the other hand cannot really edgeguard ZSS without taking significant risks where it's not really worth it unless you make a pure read. If you do expect a tether perfectly, you can actually spike her as it comes out, because it has significant lag. I don't recommend this, but even I sometimes make that occasional leap of faith lol.

As with any match up in singles, I find Din's fire useless, so don't bother with it. It doesn't mess with ZSS' recovery all that much....well actually if she does decide to tether you can hit her with that as it comes out so only in that case it would be useful. I, myself, try to avoid tethering if I can reach the stage otherwise in this match up.




Heh, np so am I. All well, next time.

Does any of ZSS aerials out range Zelda's fsmash or beat her usmash?

 

[-Mars-]

As with any match up in singles, I find Din's fire useless, so don't bother with it.

This man is a prophet. You see this Zelda players? I don't just pull this s*** out of my ***.

Anyways, really good post Snakee I think you summed up the matchup for the most part. One thing to note in this matchup is that both characters have moves that are safe on block against the other sos the matchup is really........weird. I just feel that ZSS has better options and has to take far fewer risks while she just completely destroys Zelda in the air and offstage. Also, ZSS ***** Farore's with dsmash.

 

[KayLo!]

It's always nice to have at least one person in your corner. Yours was starting to look mighty lonely.

Can't really add much to what other people've said, but ~40:60 ZSS favor sounds about right.

 

[Tien2500]

I am kinda sure that ZSS does not have an ariel move that neutralizes Dins. So when offstage she is either forced to get hit by it, or air dodge. Air dodging could put her in a bad recovery position and getting hit means she is a lot closer to death with Zelda.

Din's still isn't great, but compared to how useful it is against others she is worse off.

I would say 60-40 ZSS, I definitely would not give her anymore. If I had known we were doing this before SNES I would have asked Snakee for some friendlies... Actually I should have anyways... I am too **** shy.

Eh I guess so. Pelting with Din's fire is probably the best option against a recovering ZSS since going off the stage isn't good. But its going to knock her up towards the stage. In general though I think you'll be okay airdodging. May do like 30 damage or so over the course of a match I guess. Nothing that amazing though.

 

[sniperworm]

Thanks! I'll see what I've got off the top of my head...
Well, it's honestly a pretty strong favor for ZSS, but nothing like unwinnable. If you happen to play Sheik as well, this is the time to use her because that match up is slightly in Sheik's favor.

It's a weird match up, because they both are often unable to punish the other much at all. It's almost a complete spacing game, but when one person makes a big mistake they are in a lot of trouble for both chars.

ZSS has to approach from the air a lot, because her ground game actually kind of sucks. The only advantages on the ground for her in this match up seem to be that Zelda gets popped into the air more easily than a lot of other characters. Because of this, she can become vulnerable to ZSS' jabs and dash attack lock. Of course, Zelda still has the advantage on the ground by a long shot. If they play ZSS like my olden days (which most still do unfortunately), just become accustomed to powershielding side B and D-smash on reaction, and you can probably run up and upsmash her afterwards.

ZSS has no truly viable out of shield option to grounded attacks, so Zelda's ground spacing should be even more effective here. If ZSS tries to punish spaced f-smashes with one of her B moves or d-smash it really shouldn't work because they are so slow starting up. You should always have time to shield them I believe.

You have to really keep things grounded, but it's really like that for about all of Zelda's match ups. However, it's the most important in this one. ZSS' juggle game is comparable, or even better than, Metaknight's juggling. Saying you're going to have a hard time landing is an understatement.

Edgeguarding is very strongly in ZSS' favor. Zelda has a truly difficult time recovering against her because ZSS can easily reach any point or height off the stage, and Zelda's Up B is so slow. If you can reach the stage without using it, that may be for the best, but you still have to avoid her B-airs. When ZSS sees an Up B coming, it's really the only time her Side B is really useful.
Zelda on the other hand cannot really edgeguard ZSS without taking significant risks where it's not really worth it unless you make a pure read. If you do expect a tether perfectly, you can actually spike her as it comes out, because it has significant lag. I don't recommend this, but even I sometimes make that occasional leap of faith lol.

As with any match up in singles, I find Din's fire useless, so don't bother with it. It doesn't mess with ZSS' recovery all that much....well actually if she does decide to tether you can hit her with that as it comes out so only in that case it would be useful. I, myself, try to avoid tethering if I can reach the stage otherwise in this match up.

lol, V-13 is so gay.

Oh right, um Zelda vs ZSS isn't a MU I generally have a whole lot of fun with. It's a lot more fun when you both can run around like crazy idiots (go Sheik).

 

[-Mars-]

It's always nice to have at least one person in your corner. Yours was starting to look mighty lonely.

Can't really add much to what other people've said, but ~40:60 ZSS favor sounds about right.

Yea well when that one "person" in my corner is Snakee while the people in the other corner are Zeldspazz, AlmostLegendary, and AZNFinesse.........................my corner looks a little bit better dontcha think?