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No, but I'd usually approach with them at a somewhat safe angle where it's harder for Zelda to punish.
Yay, I was sigged lol. Thanks, and I wouldn't use Farore's much at all unless you really need to.
So what like a 45 degree angle or something? But I don't understand how you petty much rule out ZSS ground game. She has to approach at like a 51 degree angle. She can edgeguard Zelda well. But even with you saying all this ZSS has a 60-40 advantage. I'm almost certain if you use dins to edgeguard it because a little different. Seeing as how I don't see too many Zelda's jumping out and trying to dair/fair/bair people. Din's is a lot safer option to edge guard with. So how is it risky to edgeguard ZSS when using Din's?
Yeah, that's about accurate.
I'm not sure if any of ZSS aerials can stop din's. But wouldn't it become problematic for the Zelda to wait for the response to you avoiding din's then punish? I'm not really sure how ZSS attempt to recover you say recover high so you don't have to use a thether. So actually landing safe could be very problematic for ZSS right? Since you already said yourself none of ZSS aerials can beat her upsmash. You don't like to use the thether. So what options does ZSS have to recovery safely from up high? Especially if the Zelda is punishing I'll assume air dodge after it's baited by din's?
You know what? Thinking again on this Din's IS useless here too because ZSS' Up B tether shouldn't be able to be punished by that. It's range is the longest by far of any tether and Zelda can't reach that low from the stage. So as long as ZSS doesn't go for side tethers, Zelda shouldn't be able to do too much at all for edgeguarding against her.
Ah I see, also I think it depends because the range of Din's starts to get absurd the further it goes so it depends.
Thats the only thing I disagree with. Zelda has way more kill power, but landing those kill moves is another story.
Wut. Unless she catches you with a fresh side-b (in which case you ****ed up your spacing), ZSS isn't exactly a powerhouse.
Yeah. Zelda definitely has more raw killing power but considering her most potent moves, Uair, Bair, Fair, should not really be landing often if ever unless ZSS does something very stupid. Also while her tilts can KO they seem to me to be useful in the same situations as her smashes which makes them somewhat redundant.
Side B isn't ridiculously hard to hit with. Keep in mind that ZSS doesn't have to hit with the tip. At close it will combo into the second hit which is useful for punishing. Its not easy to hit with but this isn't Dedede's Fsmash we're talking about.
I've never in my life died by a dsmash combo at 100% unless I was seriously close to the edge of the stage. Dunno what kind of DI people have these days, lol.
Except that ZSS' Bair and down B both have more kill power than side B... And Fair has pretty much equal power to side B.
My mistake, then, if that's true. I admittedly forgot about down b since I don't think I've ever gotten hit by it while grounded, and I didn't know bair was that powerful.
That move is way slow so you usually have more than enough time to react to it. Since it probably isn't going to hit anyway it's not a good idea to use it much as there's always a possibility of getting punished, especially if it's powershielded. Zelda might usually not be able to punish it but Zamus still can't really take the risk of eating an running U-smash or something like that.
The basic gist of what you were saying was right anyway (i.e. Zelda's kill power > ZSS' kill power), so it doesn't matter too much.Except when I make a mistake, I actually own up to it and admit that I was wrong.
I wouldn't say I make mistakes.......I just get crucified for having differing opinions.Except when I make a mistake, I actually own up to it and admit that I was wrong.
If that's the case that can be said for 80% of Zelda's match ups.
I was actually going to add something like that to the post of mine you quoted, but I didn't want to be too negative, lol. But yeah, the fact that that's how most of her MUs go is the reason why most of her MUs are ratio'd the way they are.
But I don't believe that her weakness which is true against the majority of the cast is a reason as to why she fails against the majority of the cast. Snakee is talking about approaching Zelda from the air at a 28 degree angle. Not using her ground game. No of her aerials being able to beat out her upsmash and if ZSS doesn't approach a 36.2 degree angle then she'd just get swallowed by up smash. Yet the match up is 60-40 because Zelda air game is bad and game be edgeguarded? I call bull.
To be honest I barely consider Uair a KO move. Its more useful for juggling so unless ZSS has just been killed it will be too stale to kill with.
If you're at 100% and you get hit by a Dsmash you're at at 113%. The second Dsmash puts you at 125%. Bair at 125 should kill you on most stages.
Ok so why would the matchup be in Zelda's favor or even neutral? Because of Usmash? ZSS isn't exactly forced to approach that much in this matchup. If she hovers around mid range Zelda can't use Din's so unless ZSS is behind she really doesn't have to approach. And Zelda's options if she ever needs to approach are far more limited than ZSS'. Does Zelda have one safe approach move? ZSS is also far more manuevarable and therefore has much better abilities to mindgame/feint and try to bait Zelda into an opening. And its not hard to approach with Bair at a safe angle.
So bair is a spacing tool for ZSS ?
If ZSS is ahead (which is very likely if they know how to use the armor well at the beginning) then I don't need to do any moves really. Just hang out and wait for Zelda to approach. But you can use her paralyzer or Side B or down B if you space them correctly. As Mars pointed out bair is safe and if spaced right will knock you out of Usmash. I'm also pretty sure fast falled Nair is safe too.
I'd walk up to you and ftilt or dash to shield or walk to shield.
She does exactly the same as against anyone else: gets into a fitting range (this can be anything from long to close range depending on who she's facing), tries to keep that range and waits for an opening. Since she doesn't have any reliable approaches this is the only thing she can do.
