Match-Up Discussion: Solid Snake

[z00ted]

Ayoub I'm just going to have to assume your trolling.

 

[Meru.]

Every time I see 45:55 I die a little inside.
If you SDI it still does great damage.

It doesnt do that much, and you can sometimes even punish him after (S)DIing.

I'm not saying Snake should be flying around jumping all day, but his aerials are not bad by any means, he just has to space them very specifically. They pretty much all have huge *** hitboxes and can eat through alot of our options if we are both in the air.

Doesn't mean you have to fear Snake's air game, but you need to respect what it can do if you trade hits and are both in the air. Also you can't DI out if they only get you with the last hit. All I'm saying is be careful, you seen what %s some of his aerials can kill at?

People seem to forget that Peach is not that fast in the air either (movement speed, falling speed) and our airdodge blows ***.

I knew you were going that Peach part. Peach has an ideal short hop and full hope length, an evasive 2nd jump and a float. You can barely compare it with Snake's ****ty shorthop and awful speed.

I understand you though. Underrating is never good. But his air game is just... really not good. Its a good surprise element though, as they kill very early.

 

[Ayoub]

Weren't we talking about being in the air...


Ill - Then ur trolling aswell with your "65-35", wanna say Peach-snake is the same as Ike-MK? LOL²². You should rate a MU that bad if your opponent nearly shuts down all your options, which Snake obviously doesn't do to Peach.

 

[Silly Kyle]

I say this matchup is 45-55. If you don't play the matchup often enough, you will get wrecked.

 

[z00ted]

Kyle you too?
Alright I'm done here - read this.

This is a solid 40-60 in Snake's favor. When it comes down to it: he kills earlier and survives longer. Those are the bare essentials that can possibly shape matchups. There's nothing we can do to change that fact.

Then try to argue.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Either people agree with me, or they do not feel my words are worth the time to discuss o.0 I've been arguing an even 50-50 at best.

 

[z00ted]

What the ****.
Is everyone trolling me?

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

What the ****.
Is everyone trolling me?

Oh, the irony. The troller gets trolled

 

[Ayoub]

^ Indeed, fail troll is fail.
60-40 is still diffrent then 65-35, wich is overreacting.

 

[Silly Kyle]

I can see it being 60-40 at worst, but Peach has the tools to deal with Snake.

But KB is right.

Snake lives forever and kills Peach early. It sux. x_x;; But seriously Snake can be punished HARD!

My practice partner is a level 3 Snake and I love practicing the up air string on him cuz he's such a fat betch!

 

[LanceStern]

The way I have been playing this matchup it seems 35-65.

But I'm not playing completely correct. It's a big pain for peach to kill and Snake has a LOT of options to knock us flat out of the air. It's not safe for us to go toe-to-toe against him on the ground because he racks up damage A LOT faster and then we have to approach him or get timed out.

And once you start approaching him on his terms, you die

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

I namesaerched to get in here.

 

[swordsaint]

I namesaerched to get in here.

Did you namesearch troll again xonar?

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

WHAT UP SWORDSAINT

How's Australia?

 

[swordsaint]

*****ing

how's holland

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Pretty cool. I main mk too now, btw. Triple maining is pretty cool. Falco has a pretty easy time against Snake compared to my MK : (

Holland is gonna get orion da homoz in here soon enough, he's a cool guy though :3
Tell shaya to stop being a *****

 

[Eddie G]

Back to Snake, guys.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

For people flinging ratios around - I think we can all agree that MK is our worst match up and on a different league in comparison to the likes of Snake
MK is currently listed as 35:65 so either Snake is going to be 40:60 (which seems most likely) or MK's ratio needs to be worse and then Snake ratio ends up being 35:65. I'm not asking for discussion about MK's match up, discuss that somewhere else but it something I want to throw out
Don't forget to put other ratios into perspective


And I like Praxis' advice of counter camping - throwing a Turnip at a Snake who camps with Grenades forces him to either avoid the Turnip or get hit. Unless he's got enough space to move back from the Turnip, he's got to dodge/shield or get hit by the Turnip. He could throw the Grenade prematurely though. Regardless, it takes away a bit of Grenade control from him

What (fast) OoS options does Snake have?

Whenever I play Snake I basically hover outside his massive range and then punish/apply shield pressure when the opportunity arises. Oh and the walking salad bar is let loose as well
Its an endurance match imo (then again, most of Peach's match ups are). If you can't get the chance to kill Snake then don't go fishing for it. Just keep racking up damage and if needs be, time him out. Play it safe - unless a huge opportunity is staring you point blank in the face, keep playing safe to minimize risk of getting hit/falling into traps

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

For people flinging ratios around - I think we can all agree that MK is our worst match up and on a different league in comparison to the likes of Snake
MK is currently listed as 35:65 so either Snake is going to be 40:60 (which seems most likely) or MK's ratio needs to be worse and then Snake ratio ends up being 35:65. I'm not asking for discussion about MK's match up, discuss that somewhere else but it something I want to throw out
Don't forget to put other ratios into perspective

And I like Praxis' advice of counter camping - throwing a Turnip at a Snake who camps with Grenades forces him to either avoid the Turnip or get hit. Unless he's got enough space to move back from the Turnip, he's got to dodge/shield or get hit by the Turnip. He could throw the Grenade prematurely though. Regardless, it takes away a bit of Grenade control from him

Thank you for saying this.

 

[z00ted]

Peach vs Metaknight is 30:70.
Peach vs Snake is 35:65.

 

[Nicole]

peach mk is 30:70?

get that **** outta here!

no way dude.

i would agree that v. and v. are both 35:65 AT WORST. mk is no worse than snake though. they are both very hard.

 

[Praxis]

Peach vs MK is 70:30. Arguable for 65:35, I guess.

Not very many MK's play it correctly though. I actually feel much more comfortable playing against Mew2King or DSF than Itakio here locally.

Peach vs Snake is more like 60:40 IMO, though. I've played Ally, would like to try Ultimate Razer.

 

[LanceStern]

Before turning this into ratio war, I would NOT mind putting Peach/MK at 30:70... we lose to him too much for it NOT to be that bad.

Peach Snake is really hard too.

What (fast) OoS options does Snake have?

His broken tilts and jabs and DACUS?

 

[Airgemini]

WHAT UP SWORDSAINT

How's Australia?

*****ing

how's holland

Pretty cool. I main mk too now, btw. Triple maining is pretty cool. Falco has a pretty easy time against Snake compared to my MK : (

Holland is gonna get orion da homoz in here soon enough, he's a cool guy though :3
Tell shaya to stop being a *****

I namesaerched to get in here.

Did you namesearch troll again xonar?

Why are you guys having a convo in a match-up discussion thread? Really? They're called VMs, guys. /:

 

[Gea]

Peach vs MK is 70:30. Arguable for 65:35, I guess.

Not very many MK's play it correctly though. I actually feel much more comfortable playing against Mew2King or DSF than Itakio here locally.

Peach vs Snake is more like 60:40 IMO, though. I've played Ally, would like to try Ultimate Razer.

I pretty much agree with this. I'm fine with the ratios being 65:35 and 60:40. I still think very few Snakes know how to play vs Peach correctly (not that they need to, much like MK) but at the very least we have a few nasty damage dealers and setups on Snake. For anyone saying Snake is 45:55 just about everyone admits that you "have to play Snake's game." That tells me it's worse than someone is admitting to.

 

[z00ted]

Before turning this into ratio war, I would NOT mind putting Peach/MK at 30:70... we lose to him too much for it NOT to be that bad.

"We lose to him too much for it NOT to be that bad."

 

[Nicole]

Peach vs MK is 70:30. Arguable for 65:35, I guess.

Not very many PEACH's play it correctly though.

fixed it for ya

it's 35:65 at worst. however, i won't get into mk v peach here.

if anything, i think snake MAY be a little worse for peach, because it seems to me that he doesn't need to know the matchup as well as mk. if the peach knows them both well, but the opponent doesn't (and is a skilled opponent), i think it's way easier to fight an mk. snake kills too early and limits approaches too hard. while there's no such thing as a 'comfortable lead' against either of these chars, even against mk i feel like i can let my guard down a little if i'm pretty in the lead. snake has less bull**** than mk though. i would pick 35:65 for snake if i had to pick a ratio.

i might just know the mk matchup better though...

 

[Gea]

****, I also agree with Nicole 100%. Hmm. Actually yeah Nicole is the winner here. My vote is whatever that chick says.

*goes back to playing Other M*

 

[z00ted]

I was assuming from the beginning that both characters know the matchup and are at high level of play.

 

[Metatitan]

I was assuming from the beginning that both characters know the matchup and are at high level of play.

This. This. This.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Many of us here are not "top of the metagame" of either characters being discussed. Try as we might, most often times we are all still bias even if a little. That is the difficulty of theorycrafting.

 

[Gea]

Even top players are biased. I think the point is it's easy to underrate an opponent when the vast majority of "good" players of that character (Snake, MK) have very little Peach experience and don't fear her (or need to). You just do the best you can with what you know.

Peach gets ***** by Snake/MK.

 

[Meru.]

the vast majority of "good" players of that character (Snake, MK) have very little Peach experience and don't fear her

Many Peach players do fear them, which is the biggest problem. Snake moreso than MK.

You have a lot of tools against Snake but most players (including myself) have fear for Snake's punishments. It's very harmful. I actually think that's one of the most important things against Snake (or any character for that matter, but somehow especially Snake).

 

[Gea]

Yes but that fear for us should push us to learn the MU better. The lack of fear by them lets the matchup go unlearned on their end. Sometimes that lets us feel like we do better at the MU than we really do. That's all I meant.

 

[Nicole]

I was assuming from the beginning that both characters know the matchup and are at high level of play.

I know you were, I was too. But there is a difference between knowing the matchup and KNOWING the matchup, if you get what i'm trying to say...

I KNOW the mk matchup. I know the snake matchup. While we are looking at high level play, I assume that high level play only means 'knowing' the matchup - the best players have matchup trouble from time to time, and it isn't because they aren't good, or their character doesn't have the tools. Look at what happened at mlg last weekend - NickRiddle beat DEHF. I'm sure that DEHF knew the zamus matchup, but I bet Riddle KNEW the falco matchup, and because of that, he was able to win a pretty tough matchup for his char.

Not all top players KNOW matchups...especially peach. So what I was saying is that Snake doesn't need to know it as well as MK for him to beat her, and so, Snake actually might be harder by a tiny margin than MK.

tl:dr - Snake is hard, maybe her hardest matchup. But I don't like to think she has any matchups worse than 35:65 (at worst).

 

[LanceStern]

I was entertaining the thought of Snake being a tougher matchup than MK a couple of days ago.

He limits Peach almost just as well as metaknight (snakes' jabs/tilts/nair/bair limit us just as much as mks' sh fair/shuttle loop/tilts) only it does even more damage as is harder to sdi out of

- He forces Peach to approach right into his walls of pain
- And he is ridiculously heavier than metaknight.

ABout the only thing MK has over Peach is his air game. But SNake just swats us out of the air or drags us in so we don't get blown up

 

[Nicole]

all good points, lance.

you know...and this is gonna sound weird, but...

snake kinda has some things he can do to us in the air. he can make it kinda hard for us if he feels like it. so few snakes do this (thank god) but he can limit our approach not only with nades but with bair as well. his bair is brutal - as fast as ddd's and with probably more range and definitely more power. sure he can only do one and we can punish his landing, but if you're approaching him with float, you're not expecting bair and you'll probably get hit. add grenades to the mix and he can make it pretty ****ing hard to approach. add to that that unilke mk, snake has no need to ever come to you and probably doesn't want to anyway....man, the more i think about it the more i think snake is her worst matchup.

i just got done practicing some snake v peach too. you just cant let him get space to himself. and always always always punish his landings and dodges. you can be ****** him and kill him one stock, and he can always come back on you. he can come down and **** with you when you're recovering too...

 

[LanceStern]

Bair is nasty. Really ugly hitbox too (like most of snakes moves)

 

[C.S. Dinah]

Do Snakes ever full hop Bair?

 

[Eddie G]

Do Snakes ever full hop Bair?

Some do. I know Infern does after he shielddrops a nade while I'm trying to space from above.