Match-Up Discussion: Solid Snake

[Meru.]

Its showtime! High tier discussion again!

Snake​

​

If I were Mario, I'd tell her to stop getting kidnapped​

 

[z00ted]

My favorite matchup.
It's sooo stupid though.

I'll write some stuff later.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

I miss the 2008 talks where some people thought Peach could potentially be a Snake counter
*sigh*
Snake is really really gay. He's extremely difficult to kill, got broken range on his Tilts (not to mention ridiculous power) and has Grenade which not only travel fast but have a big blast radius and cause damage if they hit you even if you manage to avoid the explosion. This is really irritating because you have to try even harder to avoid Grenades if you want to maintain your lead if you're planning on camping/timing him out

In my experience, this is not a match where you want to approach on the ground which is quite rare for Peach. Snake's ground game is absurdly good and his air game is very situational - Snake will be spending a lot of time moving around on the ground so imo your best bet is to move around in the air, Floating above F Tilt height and manuvering around the Up Tilt danger zone whilst making sure you aren't going to accidently poke and set off any Grenades he's pulled out. Dair will clash with Up Tilt but the trade off simply isn't worth it. Obviously don't stay in the air all the time, go to the ground if Snake is in the air or if being on the ground is better than the air...I'm sure someone could explain this match up a lot better than I ever could


Its going to be a very long match. Snake is very hard to kill and Peach is very light in comparison. Landing a Fair can be very risky unless Snake is commited to something or you're doing it from a follow up because he can simply trade hits with Up Tilt due to its massive range (or sometimes hit you out of Fair) and he will nearly always come off best. Use Turnips wisely to hamper his ground movement and play the running game whilst keeping your lead. See killing him as a bonus, not a goal

 

[Praxis]

Peach outspaces Snake, but she can't land that kill and he punishes her mistakes HARD.

I play this MU based on counter-camping. Bonewalk, get turnips in hand, try to predict his grenade pulls with them. Instant-throw grenades back at him if he tosses them- even if he grenade strips you, instant-throwing them removes the possibility of him causing you to make an accidental input. Snake can't really approach Peach.

Keep fair fresh >_< Try not to get grabbed; standing up to Dsmash is often your best option, but totally punishable if he expects it.

 

[Nicole]

yeah, you really have to throw his grenades back at him. i dont usually play this matchup correctly, there are alot of things you have to do in it and i forget alot of them - i'll remember to space and avoid his ****, but i wont remember to actually take action against him.

punish his landings, he's predictable when he's trying to get back to the ground. groundfloating nairs or bairs works well. dont get frustrated is the most important thing to remember. dont let snake get that first kill.

i like playing this matchup, but i dont like the results very often :/

 

[Razmakazi]

this MU is hard to learn but it's not rly that hard once ya get used to it.

- don't get grabbed coz dthrow and having peach offstage is too good.
- don't mindlessly fall into nair setups (doing jumping forward or sumtin to avoid being tossed/tilted into c4, nade, or claymore).
- realize that Snake actually does have trouble landing kill moves. he's gonna camp coz Peach can avoid all of them. nades will prob kill past 150-160ish though.
- you gotta have a good balance between peach's air and ground game and peach does have decent ground options vs snake (the range on ground float fair, the priority on jab, etc.)

i dun wanna get into a lot of detail but snake's not so bad.

 

[z00ted]

i dun wanna get into a lot of detail but snake's not so bad.

Snake is.. SO bad.
It's not 40:60, probably 35:65.

 

[Razmakazi]

why do u think it's that bad though? i wanna hear it ;o

my general view is this.

snake can't approach and peach can space around his kill moves and setups.

peach can work her way in and combo/juggle snake a lot but her kill moves suck and aren't that easy to land on snake as well + he's heavy.

idk i think it's like 55:45 snake or like 60:40 tops coz i don't find it so that hard to hit snake but peach is made of glass so she tends to die first even though both chars would have probs killing.

 

[Gea]

For the record I called Snake being horrible (on par or worse than MK, were my words then) waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay back when we first started doing matchup analysis.

I'm not getting into the discussion of SUPER PEACH THEORY TIME, but just know that the matchup is terrible.

 

[Brawlin]

I don't know about Snake having a hard time killing. His tilts are ridiculous, especially utilt. So you have to play more defensively. Use turnips and throw grenades right back at him. I think it is more 40:60 but I am pretty sure you guys probably know alot more about this matchup than I do.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I want to say to try to outcamp snake. Snake's camp game is extremely slow. Peach has every tool to get around snake, you just need to be able to perform them. Turnips really mess Snake up if you throw them to mess up his nade pulls. You force him to drop nades which turn against him. That limits his options and is the chance to capitlize on them. If you never go airborn, then you never have any real reason to fear from utilt or ftilt. If I recall, both moves are punishable by a dash attack out of shield, or at the very least a turnip from shield. Snake's dacus can mess things up, but it is punishable too if you stay grounded and are wary of it. It has no priority and pretty much any attack with beat it out. Ftilt anyone?

After you deal with Snake's ground game, he gets juggled for extra damage. It's an awkward match-up that requires you to pretty much react to anything he attempts. However, if you can, then he become quiet manageable. Even kills. A recovering snake is quite vulnerable. If you can do that, I would say it's an even match-up.

 

[z00ted]

Obviously none of you play Razer very often.

We overate Peach on some of her matchups far too much.

 

[Eddie G]

Obviously none of you play Razer very often.

We overate Peach on some of her matchups far too much.

I agree. It is ironically one of my most favorite matchups to play but I've been shown by Infern Angelis in tourney enough to know that it is a very tough matchup; not as hard as the MK matchup, but definitely up there.

This is a solid 40-60 in Snake's favor. When it comes down to it: he kills earlier and survives longer. Those are the bare essentials that can possibly shape matchups. There's nothing we can do to change that fact.

 

[z00ted]

Besides Metaknight this definitely is our hardest matchup.
It can cause alot of Peach players to hit mental walls.

Fish for a mistake with turnips, jabs, as well as grabs and then try to punish them with a ton of strings that you can work together.

Catch him when he is falling in the air with nairs and space your bair correctly it helps set up kills if it doesn't completely hit.

Don't fair until he is at least 150% on stage or 125% offstage. This is crucial - you will NEED this move to finish him off and its dumb to be throwing it out far too much.

Have quick reaction time and be prepared to perform alot of powershielding and punishing if you want to win this matchup. Your low ground game with Peach has to be precise to win this at high level. Don't stay in your shield too much in this matchup - its worthless you always want to be moving or avoiding Snake at all costs until he makes mistakes. He will eventually have to approach but that not always a good thing for us.

Utilt can kill us at around 110% if fresh which is pretty ridiculous so never be floating above him unaware of how disjointed the move is. I always try to stay on the ground with Snake if I'm above 90% strictly because of how well he can punish us up close if we aren't the aggressor. The only time I would be in the air is if I'm constantly punishing his bad air dodges or whatever. Short hop dair works pretty well at low percentages in this matchup because its safer than the regular float to dair but DO NOT use it when you are close to dieing.

Sooo... basically lets conclude with three points.

-Peach has trouble killing, yet can rack up damage fairly quickly.
-Snake can kill easily, and given certain circumstances can also deal out damage decently.

-Peach has an average projectile that can be pulled out quicker than Snake's.
-Snake has a excellent projectile that explodes and can get him out of our dair (although it is a bit slower).

-Peach can die extremely early. (100%)
-Snake is hard to kill. (145%)

Terrible assumptions.

Snake can't get in to kill Peach.
Peach can just weave in and out against him (Hello Ftilt).

The evidence points to Snake being a strong counter against Peach.

35:65 Snake's favor in my opinion.

 

[graf_nik]

I hate when people use a short hop and tap A to use snake's air kick combo to distant themselves.

 

[hiROI]

-Peach has an average projectile that can be pulled out quicker than Snake's.

If you mean by how long it takes for the item to be pulled out, than your wrong. It takes Snake 1 frame to pull a grenade, while it takes us about half a second/30something frames to pull a turnip.

What exactly do you mean?

 

[Gea]

and Snake can throw nades longer, and easily have two out at once, along with usmash, dsmash, c4...

 

[Razmakazi]

and i'm saying peach has the tools to avoid all his bs so ima just disagree and leave it at that coz this is just gonna go into theorycraft.

 

[Gea]

The main point about a Snake camping is unless you have other options (like Falco's lasers) you can't assume that you'll outplay the Snake and thus get by the camping. It's possible, yes, but it makes the matchup harder and doesn't benefit you at all when he does camp. You have to approach.

Or is there a valid argument against this besides "we can get in"?

 

[z00ted]

If you mean by how long it takes for the item to be pulled out, than your wrong. It takes Snake 1 frame to pull a grenade, while it takes us about half a second/30something frames to pull a turnip.

What exactly do you mean?

I mean exploding.

 

[Gea]

Grenades exploding properties makes them superior to turnips even more. They don't disappear on shield, you can bait people into hitting them, you can cook them, you can make the other player drop them if he tries to throw them back...

Edit: Also you say he eventually has to approach. Uhh most snakes will (read: all) but no, he doesn't have to approach.

 

[z00ted]

Greenades ARE better than turnips by far.
Thats what I was getting at.

Snakes dont also have to appoach they can camp fairly well but Peach can avoid greenades easily if she isn't worried about dealing damage.

 

[deepseadiva]

Did you know you can sweet-spot usmash Snake if you shield an utilt?

Match-up solved.

50-50

 

[Meru.]

Did you know you can sweet-spot usmash Snake if you shield an utilt?

Match-up solved.

50-50

... Are you being serious? Please say you are.

Also, if Usmash fails, Ftilt OoS. This move is so good vs Snake. Frame 6 + GREAT reward as it puts Snake in the air which is where you want him. Peach juggles the **** of Snake in the air. Especially Uair. Uair > Snake.

I used to think this match-up was really bad, but... it's actually not that bad. Peach approaches him very, very well and she racks up damage on him so easily, its insane. IMO the 'dont get hit' mindset is extremely important here. Go there safely, approach him well, create openings and when the time comes, wreck him.

Getting the kill is a *****, which is why I agree with keeping Fair fresh. To be honest, imo you have better options most of the time anyway. I dont use Fair that much against Snake, especially compared to other characters. Also, edgeguard. You can get a lot of damage of edgeguarding Snake, especially because he is where you want him to be: the air.

Also, common sense, but watch his grenades, C4 and mines. Especially the grenades.

Last, Edreese posted an excellent post about Snake in the BBR discussion which is imo also very important:

IMO a lot of people don't play the matchup right (including myself) For some reason, people tend to follow a playstyle mold with Snake. Ally is really successful because he gets creative and uses everything Snake has in his aresenal. What happens because all these snakes play the exact same is that people get used to this one playstyle and learn how to play against these snakes, but they don't truly know how to counter all what snake can do, so when they face a snake like ally they get totally confused. (this is what happened to me.) However, it's not that my character didn't have the tools to handle this, its just that so many and so many snakes play the same, even good ones, to the point where people don't know how to play the tr matchup. Example - People like ADHD had strugges with the matchup until they figured things out like being able to throw a banana out of shield in between his f-tilt hits.

I feel if people played the matchup properly Snake would be clearly seen as 4th best. And I think people play it wrong because for some reason or another, lots of Snakes out there are so tempted to play that one playstyle. Ally and Ult Razor get really creative and I wish more Snakes did this - if they did, I'd say Ally and Ult placing much worse TBH.

Snake's biggest strength is limiting your options and forcing you to play his game. At the same time I think his biggest weakness is being able to counter people who figure out his initial plan of trapping you. He doesn't have too many alternatives once you figure out how to get around his traps and tricks, it's just that it's really hard to figure your way around them.

40-60 imo. Its a slight advantage.

 

[Cook]

Hello, my name is NICOLE. Not cook.

I don't think it's as bad as 35:65, but I do tend to be optimistic about her matchup ratios and blame myself for my losses much more than I blame my character.

You can pressure Snake's shield really well, just like DDD. If you float dair, fall nair (BEHIND HIM), and grab...what's he gonna do? He has to roll away, and you can continue this process again. I'm not saying this is the end-all-be-all of strategies, but that is a good approach, which forces him to camp.

You shouldn't get hit with utilt if your spacing is good (at kill %, you should be watching for this, I won't lie and say I never get hit with utilt, but he RARELY kills me with it). I usually die from grenades or bair. Sometimes ftilt if I'm living really long. I mean, he doesn't need to hit with utilt to kill you early, but utilt is punishable as Meno said...I usually just fair after he misses. I never save my kill moves as I assume he won't ever die anyway (this is not something I advise, if you have the patience to save your kill moves then by all means, do so). I just try give as much damage as I can, while taking little damage in return, or failing at that, at least try to avoid getting hit by moves that will kill me...so alot of them. Anyway, always be JUST out of range of utilt, and you'll get free damage, because IT IS PUNISHABLE.

You should also sdi out of nair. Always. Nair should not be killing you unless you get hit by the last hit. Nair is an extremely long move that can be punished. You can use aerials in between the kicks (as certain chars can do to our own glorious dair) if they are fast enough (nair) or you've timed them in advance (fair). Snake is a very punishable guy, really. I've already said to punish his landings, and everyone knows to **** him in the air. Throwing grenades back at him really helps too. Oh...and C4. Watch for that., and remember where that is. Easier said that done, lol. I always try to kill claymores with turnips, but if you're feeling risky, you can try to hit Snake into his own claymore, which can REALLY aid you in killing. I don't like more explosives being out than necessary though. Personal preference.

@meno, is it if you shield or if you powershield?

 

[Eddie G]

Switch to Marth.

Lol but seriously, for those of you who tend to go fishing for aerials to punish his airdodges, just be careful about a possible bair from Snake. It's one hell of a surprise kill/damage racker if you've already become prone to chasing him in the air.

And...I have to say that the burden of proof of this matchup not being mostly one-sided lies with the people who make those claims, because the existing evidence so far (with Kyon vs Candy being the only notable exception that I know of) suggests that Peach has yet to consistently beat high level Snakes, or at least consistently enough for the matchup to be deemed 50-50.

And Meno, one method of punishment does not shape a matchup that drastically, if at all. xD

 

[deepseadiva]

Totally legit people, from a normal shield. It's like none of you read Raz's posts.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=236058

And Meno, one method of punishment does not shape a matchup that drastically, if at all. xD

Notice how in the one match-up we have a guareenteed kill, it suddenly swings into our favor.

Oh, also note: Snake dies to usmash at 93% without DI.

 

[z00ted]

That is a beautiful thread :3

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I just think the match-up is not that bad because a grounded snake vs a grounded peach can wreck the approaches of the other and punish any attempts to attack. It all really comes down to camping to get the other to approach.

Snake's camping game is overrated. It's effective against characters without projectiles or ones with rathers slow projectiles, but against someone like shiek, falco, diddy, fox, etc. his camping game is threatened. Those projectiles are fast and disruptive and are not very punishable. Shiek has a slower one, but when thrown when snake grabs a nade, it messes him up. The same I believe to be true with Snake vs peach. I think it can be an even match-up if we can get around his camp game by messing it up, punish those mistakes when those nades turn against him to put pressure on him. After that it's about abusing his weakness in the air.

I can see the potiential to be there for peach to go even with snake. However, the only reason I ever seeing snake having the advantage is once again due to his weight and killing power. Also as many top peaches have said before, peach is a rather difficult person to play for a long time with. You have to be very precise when it comes to using her. If this is accomplished, I see no reason why it cannot be 50/50. The tools are there. But for the typical peach player, I guess the match-up is more 60-40.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Did you know you can sweet-spot usmash Snake if you shield an utilt?

Match-up solved.

50-50

I am extremely skeptical about this

Something I want to throw out, how about ground Floating and following Snake as he's falling back to the stage and using Uair once he gets in range? If he uses an aerial, Uair should kick him out of it and if he airdodges, you can let go of your Float and punish the airdodge

Thoughts? Would this work against good Snakes?

 

[Gea]

Doesn't bair trade hits if he ffs it? And if you are on the ground why not utilt? And most really good snakes are going to Breverse a grenade to touch down. But yes, you should attempt to punish him coming from the air. Also landing behind a good player isn't safe, Snake has quite a good spotdodge and you can get turnaround grabbed or tilted, so be careful about doing that.

Also if they space utilt correctly you can't punish with a usmash. It has hella more range than what we have. When I get utilted I am usually nowhere god**** close to Snake.

I guess I'll throw in that don't forget, this is one of two matchups that Peach bomber has a use. Go down there and bomber him off of his cypher.

Oh and his utilt goes through a perfectly spaced fair so beware.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

The best punisher for Peach in this match-up in my opinion is either turnips or dash attack. Utilt pushes that shield back really far, and if spaced, Ftilt I think will miss with the shield push-back. Usmash I have no idea about. Dash attack is like the best fail safe method in my opinion. However, I think a few people can DI out of it to avoid the 2nd hit.

Uair against Snake I am not sure about. If he fastfalls the Bair, it's a very large hitbox coming down very fast. I believe the only result from that would be trading hits, and Snake often times comes out on top from trading hits as he does like 10%+ each aerial hits with, and peach does not need the extra damage. If it's really well spaced, I might think Uair could hit him out of Bair, but it's iffy and I swear I have done that a ton and it only trades hits.

 

[Meru.]

Im 100% sure that decently-spaced, you should not trade hits with Bair.

 

[Queen B. Kyon]

60-40 Snakes favor people that dont know it its 65-35. no lie

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Well in that case, wouldn't short hop with Uair into a fastfall be better than a ground float uair? Snake can change his momentum in the air fairly quickly. If you are sticking along the ground to try to ground float Uair him, he could just b-reversal out of the landing area and you could not follow very quickly as by the time you reach him, he lands with zero landing lag into a buffered roll, shield or spotdodge.


With what you said being true, Uair would beat out Bair, it could be spaced enough to not hit his nades, and by fastfalling, you would land before his spotdodge finishes. Right?

Uair just sounds so useful, why dont' I use it more?

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Oh and his utilt goes through a perfectly spaced fair so beware.

This
Killing Snake is so difficult because its unsafe - the fact he's heavy/has great recovery makes it even harder but if you're fishing for a Fair, Snake can easily walk around and then Up Tilt the moment he sees Fair coming out. I've found this happening with Snakes I've fought - once you get to around 100% and if they see you start trying to get Fairs in for kills, they'll wander out of your way and try to smack you with broken hitboxes

 

[z00ted]

60-40 Snakes favor people that dont know it its 65-35. no lie

I'm sorta going to have to agree with this.
Nah nevermind its still 65:35.

This
Killing Snake is so difficult because its unsafe - the fact he's heavy/has great recovery makes it even harder but if you're fishing for a Fair, Snake can easily walk around and then Up Tilt the moment he sees Fair coming out. I've found this happening with Snakes I've fought - once you get to around 100% and if they see you start trying to get Fairs in for kills, they'll wander out of your way and try to smack you with broken hitboxes

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes,yes.
Only try to kill Snake when he is in the air, near the ledge, or in a bad position.
It's scary trying to take a first stock from him.

 

[Eddie G]

It's scary trying to take a last stock from him.

Fixed. Their entire strategy becomes mad desperate and defensive when you get to this point.

 

[z00ted]

This matchup is blargh ahsdflaskdjfaklsjdfa at high level.
Yet it's my favorite.

It's like playing Metaknight but .. a fair Metaknight.

65:35

 

[Gea]

Funnily enough I don't feel like Razer knows this matchup well, he's just such a solid Snake it's hard to win anyways.