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Match-Up Discussion #15! Donkey Kong

Emblem Lord

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Inui: Incorrect. Snake's f-tilt is equal in range to Marth's and slightly outranged by Marth's d-tilt.
 

Inui

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D-tilt...!

But is that good enough to match Snake's game on the ground?

Pierce7d, who are these Snakes you're fighting, btw? I've fought Cort, AfroThundah, and DSF in this match-up in tourny and every match was very close, so I know I'm not terrible at it. I just think Snake wins.
 

Pierce7d

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I've fought many Snakes, as he was pretty popular at one point. I doubt you would take many of my opponent's seriously, as I do not have the ability to travel and fight those whom you would consider of the best players, so I won't waste either of our time by listing opponents whose Snakes I've beaten.
 

Inui

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Snake is still extremely popular.

Anyone would consider those Snakes the best Snakes because they **** in every tournament they enter. >_>;

I'll stop derailing and people should get back to DK, lol.
 

blakinola

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Ugh Marth.

A good marth will never let DK approach.

Then DK starts doing Bairs. Which has more Priority, someone, anyone?

When I play Marth, it's a game of patience. Because I know in my mind that I will die after marth. get hasty, and fall to the tipper. Inui plays smart by playing D3 as counterpick cause I think he's scared of DK. I haven't played him in a while, so perhaps he's gotten better.

In any case, I give the match to marth, because of his aerial approaches, 55-45.
 

ook

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I'm a DK , but I actually don't play very many Marths (or, any good ones at that) so I can't say much. :/

I usually beat the Marths that I play, because they're so light and DK kills. Plus, DK can edgegaurd by bair chasing them off the edge REALLY far (since DK has such horizontal distance in his recovery) until Marth can't get back.
Also, lots of Marths like to approach with fairs. If you can see it coming (which you should) it's an easy shieldgrab with DK, which can lead to cargo spikes and other cool stuff.

The only things Marth has on DK are edgeguarding (his sword > DK's up-b I believe) and his range (I think his tipped fsmash extends JUST beyond the range or DK's ftilt or fsmash).



So I'd say 60:40 DK's favor. But, that's just in my limited experience fighting Marths, and I dunno if I'm really thinking straight right now.
 

Shaya

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I'm pretty sure Marth's fair outranges your grab range (If it's spaced properly). But of course, there is vulnerability in the 'power' of cargo spike, similar to Marth vs ICs; yet I'm reasonably sure Marth beats out the ICs with reasonable ease.

Also another interesting fact is that Marth's standing grab range is larger than DKs.
 

~ Gheb ~

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I don't think grabs are very important in this match-up...maybe for DK and his uthrow...
 

~ Gheb ~

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He has to grab him first and spacing is important for both DK and Marth...
 

ZHMT

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I play with DK in friendlies and I know a few things I might be able to contribute.

A few things to take note of are...

You can usually end the dancing blade with the down variation thanks to his weight. The up variation does not send him too far up and it is hard to start a juggle.

DK's ledge attack under 100% I find to be decent, its very fast and has good range, if you are anywhere near the ledge you can get hit.

Anytime you get close, be ready for DK to up b out of his shield, which has really annoying super armor <<

DK's ledge attack OVER 100% is horrible, just shield it, up b, and you took a stock.

DK's ftilt outranges most of your moves ( I think a tipper fsmash might tie it), DK can angle his ftilt up or down. The down ftilt can be used to poke you hanging from the ledge and at high percents will KO.

Stay in the air a lot vs DK, his down B can destroy your dtilt traps and outranges everything you have from the front. If you are in the air and he does that, you get in a free fair or db.
 

BacklashMarth

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Cargo spiking, ah yes, I've seen it fail before. DK threw me at the side of Final Destination, he started his Up B, i used my 2nd jump and stage spiked DK with dolphin slash. I think that if ur damage is low enuff than you can use your 2nd jump and dancing blade stall in combination with dolphin slash to keep yourself from being stage spiked or edge-guarded afterwards.
 

ZHMT

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Cargo spiking, ah yes, I've seen it fail before. DK threw me at the side of Final Destination, he started his Up B, i used my 2nd jump and stage spiked DK with dolphin slash. I think that if ur damage is low enuff than you can use your 2nd jump and dancing blade stall in combination with dolphin slash to keep yourself from being stage spiked or edge-guarded afterwards.
You can tech his cargo spike btw, and come back with a up b as a ko. Plus after that, they probably wont try it again.
 

BacklashMarth

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Shoot, that gives me a mind to let DK grab me near the edge just so he will try it and I can take a free stock. :) But this is too risky i guess and i will just stick with going for a dair on DK since his verical recovery potential fails.
 

ZHMT

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Shoot, that gives me a mind to let DK grab me near the edge just so he will try it and I can take a free stock. :) But this is too risky i guess and i will just stick with going for a dair on DK since his verical recovery potential fails.
I never actually attempt what I said however, when dk grabs me near the ledge and runs off, Ill try to tech it, if I do, my main priority is to get back on the stage, ko'ing dk is just something that usually happens with it.
 

adumbrodeus

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Fthrow at 0% doesn't actually tipper interestingly enough (it's too close, a non-tipper fsmash), but you can chain fthrows for a bit then end with a tippered fsmash, I believe it works at the second fthrow and beyond, though I need to double check cause I don't play this match-up much.

If successful, you've probably gotten DK fairly far off-stage, and you can edge-guard with fair. Once he's activated his up-b however, it's more difficult to fair him, but counter seems to work pretty well once the super armor frames are over.


D-tilt...!

But is that good enough to match Snake's game on the ground?
It's a safe poking move and a great brick wall. It's great, don't underestimate the dtilt.
 

bludhoundz

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He has to grab him first and spacing is important for both DK and Marth...
I said nothing about spacing. You said grabs weren't important, and I was pointing out that they can be in certain instances. Yes, you have to space well, but that is implied.
 

The Director

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Ugh Marth.

A good marth will never let DK approach.

Then DK starts doing Bairs. Which has more Priority, someone, anyone?

When I play Marth, it's a game of patience. Because I know in my mind that I will die after marth. get hasty, and fall to the tipper. Inui plays smart by playing D3 as counterpick cause I think he's scared of DK. I haven't played him in a while, so perhaps he's gotten better.

In any case, I give the match to marth, because of his aerial approaches, 55-45.
It is true that Marth has the ability to take away DKs approach by spamming aerials, but I have to disagree with the post above.

I actually like fighting Marths. I think DK just eats up the Fire Emblem guys. I can deal with the constant spamming of Marths fair, but what gets me is when a Marth will spam counter. Its so easy to spam counter in Brawl, and against DK it just wrecks him.
 

blakinola

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Ugh good marths dont spam counter though

they fair
they dancing blade
they go for the kill of the stage


Inui, you are right. Brawl is one huge patience game, how could I miss that lol
 

Big O

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My friend is an awesome Marth (I think he is top Marth in gamebattles) and my most common match is DK vs Marth with him so I think I can add something to this discussion.

The biggest thing I notice in this match up when I use DK is that although its a very close game, Marth definitely has the edge in momentum. Only ftilt max range, dtilt max range, retreating bairs, giant punch, and retreating uairs (lol I know its silly but hey) are safe on block. Dair spike and footstools wreck DK's recovery. DK's shield is too small for DK and he gets shiled poked by ftilts, dtilts, and ac nairs when his shields aren't at max size. The constant barrage of safe approaches and mix ups Marth has is very frustrating and fair combos to uair juggles get ridiculous after a while. DK's size means many reverse fsmash tippers, both hits of dsmash hitting, dsmash hitting you with the first hit when your behind Marth, and other ridiculous moments. What keeps me going is landing that 9 punch/ mind gaming in a charged fsmash, taking him out at like 50%.

His Marth is always in the air so dealing with his sh approaches is the first thing I learned to do. If he gets sloppy (pretty rare) with his fairs shield grabs work well. An upwards angled ftilt is key for DK in this match up. It outreaches Marth's sh options and 12 damage is pretty good. His most annoying approach however for me is the ac nair. It shield stabs, it is pretty strong tippered when DK is 100+%, and ftilt does not work as well since the hitbox lasts awhile and ftilting it too late or early means getting hit. DK's dtilt works very well against this approach because it shrinks DK's hurtbox a lot and Marth's legs are pretty close to the ground. AC nairs hit high so dtilt works wonders here. Once DK has a fully charged giant punch sh approaches can be punched through with practice (especially fairs).

Although DK has trouble with jugglers and Marth is awesome at juggling, DK has a few tricks. When Marth goes for some uair/utilt/usmash juggling at higher percents DK's side b comes in handy. It stalls in the air and resets fast falls so using it wisely can throw off Marth's rhythm but doing it too close to Marth is punishable and pretty dumb. Knowing when to fast fall, airdodge, and double jump also help. To mix it up every now and then do a dair, nair, or fair depending on Marth's relative position and your height while playing around with the fast fall timings. It can be surprising how often they work. Charging the punch high up can bait Marth into thinking he gets free hits but DK can cancel it well before Marth gets to him. If it doesn't bait Marth into using his double jump to chase you get free charge. Another thing to keep in mind is that during DK's up b he has better airspeed than usual so using it to retreat to an edge or a lagless landing on a platform is an option.

Marth is good at juggling but he is also a little weak to juggling. Being below Marth is an awesome position to be in and DK's cargo uthrow is an awesome way to put him there. A jumping cargo uthrow to uair is one of the best KO's you will ever get (KO's before usmash) and Marth will have a hard time stopping it. He can airdodge but then you can do another uair before he finishes the airdodge. If the Marth dairs it is usually too late. If you mindgame in a baited airdodge you could fair or giant punch depending on how much higher Marth is than DK. DK's utilt juggles do not work that well but it still leaves Marth in a bad position where he either airdodges the next one and punishes DK or Marth just got baited into airdodging and gets punished with something else like a dsmash.

Gimping DK is not that easy if the player knows how to control his up b and that sometimes the way forward is really backing up a little bit. My friend is a very aggressive edge guarder so getting back to the stage is always a tough fight. The first trick I have learned is that fair really works. It works because it is disjointed (DK has arms of steel). It makes sure Marth doesn't get too close if you space it correctly. A lot of times that means backing up. Marth does not have a great horizontal recovery so he cannot afford to chase you too far and fairs give you some breathing room (or Marth gets hit). Another trick to not getting gimped is mastering D's up b. Most DK's I have seen look like they do not know you can go backwards/ slow down DK's up b. This is mostly for when DK is high enough to get on the stage without the ledge because otherwise they could be smart and just edge hog DK if they see this coming. It makes easy edgeguards like Marth's edge hopped dair ineffective.

Gimping Marth is pretty hard but still doable. Cargo stage spike can work but if DK is too slow or Marth doesn't have enough damage he can footstool DK to death (my friend is a mashing machine though so this happened a lot). Cargo dthrow is an excellent set up for edge guards. If Marth used up his double jump before being grabbed and didn't land its an easy gimp since his up b has no horizontal range and he doesn't get his double jump back. Weak bairs and weak nairs (the nonsweetspot that does 8 damage for both) can gimp from a cargo dthrow at low damage since he can't really DI up from really weak hits. DK's up edgestall is very good makes edge hogging Marth a little easier. Bair edge guards do ok for DK too but most of the time Marth will try to recover low so it is only good when they try to recover from high up. Marth survives spikes pretty well but after like 50% he should die if you land one.

Dancing blade used to bug me a lot but now that I know how to deal with it, it's not too bad. When blocked DK can shield grab after the third hit. A nasty trick I learned is DI'ing up during the multi hit 4th db and side b to punish it. It works and he never does that anymore lol. Shield breaker renders DK's shield useless if DK blocks it. He mostly uses it as an edge hopped poke (pretty effective to boot) but if Marth ever tries to mindgame in a charged shieldbreaker or just delay it thinking DK will spotdodge I just stay barely out of range and charge an fsmash which really hurts. Up b out of shield is annoying but when DK has 50% or less he can punish an up b that hits him with DI and fast falling. Counter is all about mindgames so nothing to really say about it besides charge a smash if Marth does it on reaction to your smash attacks.

In general I would say it is pretty even with a slight advantage to Marth but not enough to be a counter pick. Marth is better at approaching safely and tries to overwhelm DK, but DK has better reach, power, and outlasts him. DK has to be more cautious and outplay Marth to win. 55-45 Marth-DK
 

Emblem Lord

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Big O pretty much summed it all up.

Forgot about Marth's nair, but it becomes ALOT more viable in this match as an approach and a kill move when SHed since DK is big and tall.

Also Marth outranges DK's d-tit with his own tilts IIRC. He can also shield drop to DB to punish a fully spaced f-tilt I think. I will test it sometime to be sure. I'm fairly certain that Marth can up b out of shield to punish a fully spaced d-tilt from DK. I also need to test this to be sure.
 

Big O

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I actually retried the ftilt and dtilt on block and ftilt has a small window of safety (about as much of a window as tipping with Marth's sword) where he is too far to DB out of shield but you might be able to run a bit then db. The timing to do that would be very strict and hard to buffer though. If DK angles it up it has slightly less frontal range but has more shield pushback (maybe more shielstun too) so it also has a small window of safety which is a little closer than the window for a normal one. If Marth's db hits at max range the second hit will whiff so its not too bad for DK. DK's dtilt at max range is safe but the window is impractical unless Marth's shield is somewhat damaged because it is frame sensitive (a big shield lets you block it a frame earlier than you would have otherwise). Marth has a one frame margin if the shield is full before DK pulls his arm in time from what I have tried. Marth's dtilt actually has a little bit less range than DK's (which is surprising) and I do not think you implied otherwise but DK's dtilt also outranges Marth's utilt. A weird thing I found out though was when I tried buffering db out of shield I couldn't do the second hit at all on slow speed. It seemed to work at normal speed but its too fast for me to tell if it was buffered out of shield or just soon after. I also tried buffering it after a jab on normal speed and I could not get the second hit to come out.
 

Kouryuu

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I've been playing against a really good DK recently. I've learned a great deal about the match-up. I can assure you that the match up is 55/45 - 60/40 DK. Unfortunately, DK has the advantage, though it's not ****.

Big O and Emblem Lord did cover almost all the factors in the match up. ALMOST.

You see, there are three important factors that both have missed which give DK, IMO, the advantage.

The three things are:

1. DK's Dsmash comes out really quick, has good range, and kills Marth early (especially if it's not stale). Zoning in with SH's is made harder because of this. A single mistake in spacing a SH Nair or Fair can lead to a loss of a stock.

2. DK's Up-B out of shield.. is ridiculous. It has SA frames, racks up ridiculous damage(I once got 19 percent from one Up-B!) and is very difficult for Marth to punish if he gets hit. It's the DK's best move to push Marth away when he is being pressured. It also makes it hard for Marth to stick to DK once he gets in. If Marth shields, the DK just pulls back(assuming he is not near the edge) and Marth doesn't have the adequate speed necessary to punish effectively. The most the Marth can do is get a quick SH Fair right before DK recovers(and DK recovers fast). The risk/reward favors DK too much.

3. DK ***** Marth from below when Marth is in the air above him. Marth can't really do anything. DK just has to run/walk under the Marth and shield. Regrab right before the Marth hit's the ground, and Up-throw. Repeat the cycle until Marth is at a high enough percent to die (~90%). Marth has no quick fast aerials that cover below him so the Marth must usually fall back on air dodges. At this point, the DK has many ways to get an easy kill (Uptilt, Uair, Dsmash are prime examples). In fact, DK can just grab, cargo Up throw, and get a single Uair in. That's it for Marth.

Of course, platforms make it harder for DK to play this kind of game against Marth but it wont make the match any easier. DK controls platforms much much better than Marth. Platform or not, DK ***** Marth from below. Marth unfortunately, does not have the tools necessary to do the same to DK.

There are still other small factors that I haven't mentioned that give DK the advantage but these are few of the big ones, along with what Big O has mentioned.

I've also talked to a few Marths in the competitive scene and practically all of them agree with me. That DK has the advantage.

For Marth to win, he has to make as few mistakes as possible. The margin of error is much to small when compared to DK's and that is what makes this a hard match up.
 

Big O

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DK's dsmash is very unsafe on block or whiff because its his longest smash so it is risky to rely on it to KO early and is a terrible answer to properly spaced sh approaches. Tipper fsmash is just as fast and is stronger. Dsmash out of shield is good but should be saved to KO. DK's up b cannot go backwards on the ground, is easy to DI out of, but if DK is lucky (Marth panics and DI's into it the whole time) it can do 36%. It does own shields but Marth's up b out of shield easily beats it and you can spotdodge towards the end to save shield and punish. Marth does suck from below but its not gamebreaking if you know when to airdodge, double jump, counter, dancing blade, and DI. It certainly isn't abusable enough to do more than 40%. If DK's shield is not close to full, nairs will shield poke him easily. Marth juggles DK fairly well too. DK punishes Marth well but Marth punishes more often and effectively.
 

DUB

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I've played some Marth against DK recently. I don't know if I saw this because I didn't read all the essays in here but if your recovering with Marth make sure you ledge snap and don't float over the edge. If you get Cargo'd to D-throw off the stage you are pretty much dead.
 

Dark Sonic

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I've played some Marth against DK recently. I don't know if I saw this because I didn't read all the essays in here but if your recovering with Marth make sure you ledge snap and don't float over the edge. If you get Cargo'd to D-throw off the stage you are pretty much dead.
You could also just get out of the cargo faster and footstool-> him as punishment.

I've done it to my friend a few times. It's pretty hilarious. With Sonic I footstool->spring, but it's not as epic.
 

DUB

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DK's u-b does more than 19%. I've done like 25% with it, lol.
I sware to God I've taken high 30's from it before.

The matchup isn't in Marth's favor IMO. I'd say 55-45 DK. Every move you have, he's got one longer. An angled F-tilt from DK will shut down any aerial approach you got....except aerial counter:bee:
 

Ragnar0k

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DK's falling cargo down throw off stage can **** Marth. Marth can barely recover from it and if DK up b ledge stalls for the invincibility then Marth can't recover. Also if DK ever grabs a Marth after they've used their double jump and falling cargo down throws them away from the stage it's a kill.
 

feardragon64

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DK's falling cargo down throw off stage can **** Marth. Marth can barely recover from it and if DK up b ledge stalls for the invincibility then Marth can't recover. Also if DK ever grabs a Marth after they've used their double jump and falling cargo down throws them away from the stage it's a kill.
First of all, tech? If DK jumps OFF the stage while holding marth, it's really not that hard to predict.

After that, Marth is left(let's say an absolute worst case scenario where it's on Final D and Marth is under the lip now after teching), in a spot where he can't just dolphin slash to recover. Even if he did, he could(if it was another stage), he would get gimped by invincibility frames or would have to land on the stage which is a free hit for DK. Instead he just air dodges to avoid a any other stage spike attempts from DK while waiting out the invincibility frames and moving away from the lip, then reverse dolphin slashes to sweetspot the ledge when invincibility frames are gone for DK. DK can't dair spike him either because of dolphin slash's invincibility frames. And even if somehow Marth gets Bair'd when trying to dolphin slash back, he still has his second jump and can dolphin slash AGAIN.

And donkey punch is slow(even if it was a joke post). You wanna claim super armor so Marth can't attack him out of it? Counter. It's not like there isn't time to....
 
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