Match-Up Discussion #15! Donkey Kong

[Steel]

Donkey Kong​

​

Go ^_^

 

[~ Gheb ~]

#15 was ROB IIRC (14 was fox, 15 ROB)...so DK is 16

I'll post my points later...

 

[Pr0phetic]

Gimping him is what i like to do, watch out for his tilts, he's a little speedy, but not much difficulty imo.

 

[HRNUT (Honey Roasted)]

i actually have a hard time with this fight but i haven't fought the one donkey kong that beat me...he's so **** heavy and powerful...how do you fight him on the stage??

 

[Steel]

#15 was ROB IIRC (14 was fox, 15 ROB)...so DK is 16

I'll post my points later...

Huh? The ROB thread was necro'd, that was like the 3rd or so discussion.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

This is a hard match... I don't like DK, and his Bair is very good, but many of his attacks are laggy, especially his most powerful ones.

 

[feardragon64]

Beast.

Don't get spiked.

 

[Pr0phetic]

Beast.

Don't get spiked.

word to mother, and don't jump behind him.

 

[Ripple]

I'm pretty sure this match up is even, maybe 55-45 for marth.

 

[wazgood]

The DK boards are currently discussing how the Marth boards are discussing DK

The DK board is currently discussing how we are discussing DK. Go post your opinions!

 

[mitch2302]

i would say about even, dk is a beast, but marth can score continuous hits on his huge frame.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Ok, here's my 2 cent:

DK ***** a lot of chars, simply because his range was seriously buffed. He's pretty much up to par with Marth in this regard, especially his Dtilt and DownB cover a lot of range, which requires perfect spacing.

Don't rely too much on your Shield, as DK can use his ForwadB to minimize it with one single hit, which sucks...

His tilts are all first rate and his smashes are way too powerful...Usmash kills insanely early, has godly range and priority and so doas his uair. Never stay above DK, since he'll completely destroy Marth here - DKs like to use their uthrow to get his opponents above him and then he beats 'em up.

Marths Edgeguarding is his saving grace here, since DK is equally fast, has the same range but kills "Mr. Leighter than Peach" in no time, if he gets a chance.
They're actually quite similar but DKs problem is his big hurtbox, which makes pacing somewhat easier for Marth...


50:50

 

[Emblem Lord]

DK's forward b is pretty easy to react too.

Anyway, block anything from him and it's a free punish excluding retreating Bair. Yeah, even f-tilt. Marth can outspace pretty much all of DK's tools on the ground except f-tilt. When Marth gets in he has to play a tight zoning game. DK wants to keep you out and he has the tools to do so. Marth wants to get in and stay in and he has the tools to do so.

DK zones with f-tilt, d-tilt, bairs and his down b. Down b is pretty nasty. Shuts down ground approaches with ease and his crazy range. If can be shielded though and then you can JC from shield to approach or just SH in the first place to avoid it altogether.

Marth closes in with his speed and his safe approaches on the ground or in the air. He has a better punishment game in this match since Marth can punish pretty much anything DK throws out. So Marth can deal damage more consistently due to speed, DK's large hurtbox and his punishment game.

Still, DK can kill pretty early and he is very heavy so he will live long. Marth has much better edgeguarding and can gimp DK.

So overall they both have very specific strengths that mitigate one another's weaknesses. Marth is light while DK is heavy. DK has range while Marth has speed. DK will be killing better outright, while Marth can get gimps. DK has a good keepaway game, while Marth has great options for closing in. Marth can deal out alot of punishment with ease, but DK's weight allows him to take it.

I will say that if Marth gets DK off balance it can be difficult for DK to get back momentum since he has to try camp Marth and if Marth blocks pretty much anything DK will get punished so DK really has to be careful and choose his options with caution.

It's either 55/45 Marth or 50/50. I would only give the nod to Marth since he can punish DK so well, but it really depends on how much importance we think this factor carries.

 

[_Kadaj_]

I think that factor should be considered seeing as how walking virtually cut out a fair amount of his spacing tools because of being able to powersheild tilts to go in for db, ds, or a grab, also a jc f-air

O yea marth has a semi-jump break release combo
Jump break to f-air
Or jump break to u-air

 

[Steel]

Juggle trap dat monkey

 

[_Kadaj_]

Lol throw him a bananna

 

[Nibbity]

lolol I think I used to have that toy in the picture.

I would give a slight advantage to marth assuming all grat Dk players won't spam F-tilt, because that's a mother to try to adjust spacing against. Fairs don't seem too effective because of DK's reach also, but I feel comfertable because of marths ground speed. He's a big character, but obviously not the biggest, and Dk obviously also has some agility in him, unlike DDD. I'd be careful around the edges and try to pressure him into corners where he cannot keep you away.

 

[Inui]

I don't see any reason to not use Dedede on DK because that match is 90/10 in Dedede's favour and you don't need a brain to win it.

But if the walking chaingrab is banned, then swapping to your true main, which I'm assuming is Marth, is probably the best idea.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Why the **** are you talking about Dedede vs DK in a Marth match-up thread?

It is it because you're dumb?

 

[feardragon64]

Maybe it's because I haven't fought a truly skilled d.k. (though I've seen a few) but....

D.K.'s down b has an awful startup and ending lag. Is it really a viable way to shut down ground approaches? Seems to me if D.K. does it, you either have enough time to grab him at close range, dtilt at medium range, or SH fair at longer range.

Please correct me if I'm wrong about the lag on his move though. I always thought it was useless =\

 

[Steel]

It isn't used for when Marth is already next to him, it's another one of DK's spacing tools to keep marth out.

 

[_Kadaj_]

Just disregard what inui has said and focus on what REAL marth mainers info on this match up have to say

 

[Inui]

Why the **** are you talking about Dedede vs DK in a Marth match-up thread?

It is it because you're dumb?

Because <insert not Dedede> against DK is almost worthless to know when you can just pick Dedede, grab DK, and win. You don't need a brain or Dedede experience to even do this.

However, as I stated in the second part of my post which you decided to ignore, the walking chaingrab is sometimes banned, in which case sticking with Marth and learning the match-up is a good idea.

Just disregard what inui has said and focus on what REAL marth mainers info on this match up have to say

lol

I was actually going to respond to this until I saw your location.

 

[Shaya]

DK was ****ing annoying for ages for me.
I regularly play 3 people who are either DK mains or reasonably good.

As much as this would pain some people, shieldbreaker is an awesome poke against DK. SHSB pokes that ****er well. He can't grab you, and most of the time you can't be punished (not unless you just happen to try poking him at the same time he does DK Punch or you were too close [i.e. bad spacing] and he does fsmash).

He's a problem because of his super armor attacks. When it comes to his up b, always just shield to up b or counter.

Many DK's with a fully charged DK punch will bait you to attack them through a sh approach or what you believe is a safe ground move. It is something most DK mains will do a lot to just finish you off. It can be seen from a mile away and if you fall for it you suck. They FEEL you approaching them with a finger on an attack button and then go WAH HA HA SUPER ARMOR DK PAWWWNCHHHHHHH. If they're inclined to do this, feint shs to shield is most safe, poking with SB -can- be safe, and if you are totally sure they will do the punch just do counter for happiness.

Edge camping DK's is easy as well; Up smash if they JUMP, dancing blade if they roll, shield->up b if they attack. If they jump to up b (you should be shielding) then just chase after them and punish as well.

Be forwarned that DK can actually use juggle traps on YOU, THE JUGGLE-MEISTER. Uair to fastfalling either a downsmash, upsmash or sometimes their down b.

Bair is yes, an annoying move. But they -should- become predictable depending on the player, even if not it can be seen from a mile away. Retreating fairs that you fast fall if they JUMP UP is perdy sweet. Poke them for believing the bair would work against your manliness.

Rush down is fine againt DK, you'll be wanting to keep running circles around him. Keeping out of range of the upsmash, while shielding dsmash and hopefully baiting a fsmash that you just either counter or punish afterwards.

In my opinion the match up is evenish, probably 55:45 Marth.


We also have fthrow to fsmash TIPPER on DK. Depending on DI it works until 45%. It's something not to -abuse- but is great to set the situation to them being off the edge. Them off the edge = love.

 

[Inui]

I never do the match-up because I also play Dedede, but I do have a question for when the walking chaingrab is banned.

Can Marth reliably spike DK out of his recovery, or would it be better to go behind him and try to up b spike him into the stage?

 

[Pierce7d]

Whoa, relax guys, I'm relatively sure, Inui was just making a funny. No need for torches.

. . . lol

Anyway, I would very much like to talk about the DK match-up. I firmly believe DK is one of the characters that has a positive match-up against Marth, 65-35.

DK's advantages:
Very heavy
Better kill moves
Moderate number of safe moves on block (dtilt, maybe fully spaced Fsmash, fully spaced Giant Punch, Bair)
More range
Better recovery

Marth's advantages:
Better ground speed
Better attack speed
More aerial maneuverability

DK's disadvantages:
Huge hurtbox
In the air, weak from the front, semi-weak from below.
If used incorrectly, UpB has tremendous lag when recovering

Marth's disadvantages:
Very light
outranged
semi-weak from below (DK has a good utilt, uair) due to tremendous lag on the Dair.



Through the use of Ftilt, Bair and DownB, DK can effectively zone out Marth. DK is MUCH heavier than Marth, and has much better finishers. Dk's Dtilt has good range and comes out rather quickly, effectively pushing Marth out of his attack zone, so DK can resume spacing him. DK's has amazing lateral recovery, which even has some super armor on startup. Due to his weight, there's no real reason DK will ever get low enough that he really needs more vertical recovery. While Marth can hinder DK's recovery with very well placed Fairs and Bairs, Uairs from underneath, excellently timed Dolphin Slashes, and Counter, against DKs that DI appropriately, Marth really cannot gimp DK. However, DK's Bair is an amazing edgeguard tool, that nearly forces Marth to recover from low every time.

Shieldbreaker is a godsend in the match-up, since DK's so big, and cracking that shield is relatively simple. From there, hope that DK is above 40% or so, so you can take a stock off of this tank.

Also, DK is actually more floaty than one would expect. This makes him easier to juggle, but harder to follow up on otherwise, despite the giant hurtbox, if DI is used to it's maximum potential. That, and Giant Punch's Super Armor in the hands of a master really says STFU to a lot of follow ups, and is not too slow to use as a punisher.

Marth can forward grab chain DK quite a few time, and thanks to the startup lag on DK's Dair and Fair, it's pretty hard for him to punish a forward throw. Marth can Fthrow to Fsmash DK after 3 throws, for a 0-30 combo. Marth cannot 0 to death combo DK though.

Though I don't think it's relevant to the match-up, it is correct that DK's SideB has a shieldbreaker effect, though it is not as potent as our own. Furthermore, DK's Fsmash will reduce about 1/3 of your shield, so be sure to find an alternative method of dealing with it (dodge, counter).

Seriously, DK is the only character that I've NEVER beaten in tourney, or even friendlies at a tourney (and my brother, who plays a decent DK, but does not main him, sometimes gives me a run for my money). I think that we might seriously be underestimating DK in the regard that he might just be advantageous against Marth.

Because <insert not Dedede> against DK is almost worthless to know when you can just pick Dedede, grab DK, and win. You don't need a brain or Dedede experience to even do this.

Uh, double blind picks can be very deadly. Furthermore, I've seen Bum effectively NOT GET GRABBED THE ENTIRE MATCH BY D3. This is facing moderate AND HIGH CALIBER D3s.

I never do the match-up because I also play Dedede, but I do have a question for when the walking chaingrab is banned.

Can Marth reliably spike DK out of his recovery, or would it be better to go behind him and try to up b spike him into the stage?

Good DKs (or rather, good players in general) will DI upwards when hit off the stage. This makes it VERY difficult to spike DK, because of the moving hitbox that also rises slightly as he travels. Though not impossible, frequently attempting to meteor smash DK while he is using his UpB is not advised.

Getting behind him and stage spiking him with Dolphin Slash is also pretty tricky, due to how amazing DKs UpB actually is. It travels moderately fast, and DK's pretty huge, so if you were already on the stage, by the time you get behind DK, he'll probably be safe on the edge, or even back on the stage.

Oh, and I'm not entirely sure what is the highest percentage Marth can utilize Fthrow to Fsmash, but it does not work all the way through 0 to 45, and as with every character, move reduction comes into play.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I find it easier to counter his up b once to get damage and then try to harass him off stage, but I'll mess around with different methods.

 

[Inui]

I find it easier to counter his up b once to get damage and then try to harass him off stage, but I'll mess around with different methods.

I don't have any DKs to play and don't like playing computers, so let me know what you find out.

Anyway, I would very much like to talk about the DK match-up. I firmly believe DK is one of the characters that has a positive match-up against Marth, 65-35.

lol, no.

That would make DK worse than Meta Knight and Snake for Marth, which is clearly false. The only match I think that could be worse is R.O.B. because he can survive spikes at over 60%, is hard to gimp, is extremely heavy, and can massively camp Marth to the point where Marth really can't get in.

Seriously, DK is the only character that I've NEVER beaten in tourney, or even friendlies at a tourney (and my brother, who plays a decent DK, but does not main him, sometimes gives me a run for my money). I think that we might seriously be underestimating DK in the regard that he might just be advantageous against Marth.

That's why you think that about the match-up.

I thought fighting R.O.B. with Marth was a terrible idea even when I able to beat the best R.O.B. in NJ with Marth while Atomsk's Dedede and Diddy Kong were both failing to do this.

But I'll admit I think it's worse than Meta Knight and Snake because I hate it a lot, lol.

Uh, double blind picks can be very deadly. Furthermore, I've seen Bum effectively NOT GET GRABBED THE ENTIRE MATCH BY D3. This is facing moderate AND HIGH CALIBER D3s.

NYC only has one Dedede main, and it's someone he plays with on nearly a daily basis. He's never faced Mew2King, Atomsk, Aero, or Seibrik, who are by far the best Dededes and the only ones I'd call "high caliber."

Good DKs (or rather, good players in general) will DI upwards when hit off the stage. This makes it VERY difficult to spike DK, because of the moving hitbox that also rises slightly as he travels. Though not impossible, frequently attempting to meteor smash DK while he is using his UpB is not advised.

Getting behind him and stage spiking him with Dolphin Slash is also pretty tricky, due to how amazing DKs UpB actually is. It travels moderately fast, and DK's pretty huge, so if you were already on the stage, by the time you get behind DK, he'll probably be safe on the edge, or even back on the stage.

Okay, thanks.

I like Marcel's counter-then-harass idea.

 

[Shaya]

Gimping DK is a one avenue and one avenue only approach:

RUSH OFF THE EDGE, FAST FALL A FAIR AS THEY JUMP OR BEFORE THEY WOULD UP B (DK's won't up b at the maximum range of it's recovery, because otherwise they will get gimped a lot easier), and then just jump back up and up b the stage.

If the DK used his jump he won't live if the fair is tipped and he's above 50%, otherwise just a few rinse and repeats.

DK's recovery is -good- in one way, but bad in another. It's definately not as tricky or annoying as MKs. But it can screw you over just the same.

I would NOT be surprised if the match up consensus was between 55:45-40:60 (Marth:DK).

 

[Emblem Lord]

Inui....ROB mains and Marth mains all over agree that Marth vs ROB is a very very close match.

Seriously.

What the ****?

 

[Inui]

Inui....ROB mains and Marth mains all over agree that Marth vs ROB is a very very close match.

Seriously.

What the ****?

Then I guess I just suck. When I look at how gay R.O.B.'s camping is, watch him survive spikes at 80%, and take forever to kill while I die at 100% to his stupid n-air or u-smash, I don't think it's even.

How is it even? I've never even seen you or NEO fight a R.O.B.

 

[Steel]

Pierce, come now, 65:35? Really? Really?.... Really? This is an even at worst match up for Marth.

 

[Pierce7d]

I find it easier to counter his up b once to get damage and then try to harass him off stage, but I'll mess around with different methods.

I generally counter, then Fair if possible. Periodically, I'll drop below him and Uair. Often, I'll edgehog, forcing him onto the stage, and then ledge-hop Uair, to begin juggling.

That would make DK worse than Meta Knight and Snake for Marth, which is clearly false. The only match I think that could be worse is R.O.B. because he can survive spikes at over 60%, is hard to gimp, is extremely heavy, and can massively camp Marth to the point where Marth really can't get in.



That's why you think that about the match-up.

I thought fighting R.O.B. with Marth was a terrible idea even when I able to beat the best R.O.B. in NJ with Marth while Atomsk's Dedede and Diddy Kong were both failing to do this.

But I'll admit I think it's worse than Meta Knight and Marth because I hate it a lot, lol.

Snake is not that bad for Marth. Snake was just tricky to fight against at first, but I don't believe I'm the only one here who doesn't really worry about Snakes anymore. Very close match-up.

I think MK vs Marth is 65-35 as well, I'd just say that most Meta-knights don't play at his peak.

Of course, I would agree that this is partially due to using M2k's MK as my model in this senerio, lol.

R.O.B.s projectiles aren't really spammable enough to camp IMO, and though the two he does have possess very good power for projectiles, they are very telegraphed, and easily shielded. I personally think the R.O.B. vs Marth match-up is 55-45 in R.O.B.s favor.

Now, for the reasons I stated above, I think Marth is at least 60-40 in DK's favor.

 

[Steel]

I generally counter, then Fair if possible. Periodically, I'll drop below him and Uair. Often, I'll edgehog, forcing him onto the stage, and then ledge-hop Uair, to begin juggling.

Why would you willingly put DK back on the stage when you already have the positioning advantage? If you are going to juggle trap that's all fine and dandy, but you may as well make him work to get back on the stage.

 

[Inui]

Snake is not that bad for Marth.

-Outranges Marth with a 4 frame, 21% move that can kill.
-Can consistently kill Marth with his 6 frame, huge u-tilt at slightly over 100%, which is far less than what Marth has to get Snake to in order to kill him.
-Grenades stop Marth from attacking.
-If you don't get a lucky gimp from spiking him out of the cypher or grabbing it, he lives forever.
-You have to work super hard to approach him, get him in the air, and then try to punish his terrible air game, which is the only way to win.

 

[Emblem Lord]

DK really doesn't have the tools for it to be in his favor from what I can tell.

Inui: It might just be your style vs ROB's. And you don't need to play a match-up to know **** about it. **** smash community and their twisted unfounded logic.

I'm old school you young whipper snapper.

But seriously, the ROB boards looked at the match-up as well and even posted in our thread and we all share the same opinions on the match-up. Very even.

Why are you getting hit with Nair when it telegraphs and you outrange it?

Don't worry so much about gimps and even if ROB survives you can spike him again at those percents lol.

ROB's u-smash?! Yo...You seriously get hit with this?!

What exactly are you doing in this match-up man?

 

[Inui]

I like attacking.

By "very even" you at least mean "R.O.B. has a slight advantage," right?

 

[Pierce7d]

Why would you willingly put DK back on the stage when you already have the positioning advantage? If you are going to juggle trap that's all fine and dandy, but you may as well make him work to get back on the stage.

Picture this:

DK is going to recover. He's not really far from the stage, but he needs to UpB. He drops, and aims for the ledge, and you don't have the line-up for a Dair. Instead of simply letting him grab the ledge safely, you can secure an Uair.

Of course, I will agree that DK's options off the ledge are utter garbage, and I probably just ledgeguard him as well, but sometimes, I just wanna juggle

 

[Emblem Lord]

Actually I mean that you could make an argument to swing it to 55/45 either way.

So for the sake of accuracy, you would just call it 50/50.

Some ROB mains wanted to give Marth the advantage and some Marth's want to give ROB the nod.

 

[Pierce7d]

-Outranges Marth with a 4 frame, 21% move that can kill.
-Can consistently kill Marth with his 6 frame, huge u-tilt at slightly over 100%, which is far less than what Marth has to get Snake to in order to kill him.
-Grenades stop Marth from attacking.
-If you don't get a lucky gimp from spiking him out of the cypher or grabbing it, he lives forever.
-You have to work super hard to approach him, get him in the air, and then try to punish his terrible air game, which is the only way to win.

Oh really? I usually just perfect shield my way in, chain throw to fsmash, and edgeguard/juggle the living hell outta him. It's even easier when they grenade camp, because they can't tilt for a bit. Plus, grenades = glide-toss + explosions.

Seriously, walking is ftw.