Match-Up Discussion #14! Fox

[Desire]

^ DK=marth just my opinion

 

[Steel]

Prove it.

And get monkey pics.

Fine. You all want to do DK next then?

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

Cool with me.

 

[Desire]

i like to go over Lucas, but DK is fine with me

 

[_Kadaj_]

The order doesn't matter steel but it would be better to do 60:40's and even matches tho instead of fox first it could've been ic's then dk to get the more opposing threats out of the way first

 

[Nibbity]

Pikachu or DK for me.

 

[Desire]

^ Yes Yes Yes!!

Pikachu , I Hate That Yellow Piece Of **** Rat

 

[Steel]

Marth ***** pikachu. What's the problem?

 

[_Kadaj_]

Whoever is fine

 

[Steel]

I'll do it tomorrow night, maybe the next day. People keep posting in the last 3 character threads so I don't want too many discussions going at once.

 

[VietGeek]

Marth ***** pikachu. What's the problem?

Nothing. Play smart, as well as have a mastery over DI and it'll become 5x easier.

That's right Desire, time to DI Pikachu's Dsmash x3. VietG style.

 

[_Kadaj_]

Marth vs pikachu= f-throw, f-throw, spike

Lol

 

[Hype]

Is that even a combo vs. pikachu. im pretty sure marth can only chain grab 7 people.

fox
falco
wolf
C falcon
Ganon
Dedede
sheik

 

[BacklashMarth]

Hey, f-throw x3 to spike worked in melee. Having it work in brawl doesnt seem like a strech to me.

 

[_Kadaj_]

Yes dude I'm sure same thing against pit and snake
Except snake and pit are one throw only and (wait what am I doing?)

Sorry guys that's all :devil:

*runs*

 

[BacklashMarth]

Hey maverick. How much do you use marth? I havent seen somebody who mains Captain Crunch and also uses Marth. Arent they both too manly to get along?

 

[3xSwords]

lol Maverick explained, C. Falcon was his melee main, don't get confused he is just to lazy to change. And how many people does f-throw > dair work on guaranteed? Without DI you can land this at mid %'s but with it how does it do?

And Backlash saying that something worked in melee should work in brawl is fail.

 

[MojoMan]

Great matchups against larger characters like bowser. He's a fast faller, so aerials off the edge aren't a good idea.

 

[BacklashMarth]

lol Maverick explained, C. Falcon was his melee main, don't get confused he is just to lazy to change. And how many people does f-throw > dair work on guaranteed? Without DI you can land this at mid %'s but with it how does it do?

And Backlash saying that something worked in melee should work in brawl is fail.

Im not saying it WILL work. Im saying it MIGHT work (i vaguely remember doing it before actually). Marth and pikachu have remained pretty much the same after their conversion over to brawl. Sorry for the fail. I usually fail by choice and not by nature.

 

[Shaya]

I personally think Marth dominates the ICs.
If their chain grab meant insta win they'd be above MK in the tiers.

Marth just happens to shut down any approach the ICs have due to his awesome range.

Eh, I think the matchup between Marth and DK is hard to pick. In my experiences it's close to even, but that's not everything.

 

[-Mars-]

If you guys are still talking about the Fox matchup, i'd like to chime in a little bit. A lot of you are saying that the matchup is 65:35 or even 70:30, but i'm going to have to disagree with this. Now i'm not one of those Fox players that thinks this matchup is even, but it's not as bad as some of you think it is. Granted Marth kills Fox in the air, this is well known and any smart Fox players knows this. We won't try to go head to head with your fair or play an overly aggressive style against you, we know better. The aerial game is not as important as you guys seem to think it is because of one little thing that wasn't discussed......the shine.
This little thing imo is one of the most useful specials in all of brawl, so many combos are stopped because of it's stalling properties. You might have me in one of those vaunted Marth fair combos, but I shine and we're back to square one. You try to juggle me in the air and my shine messes you up again.....it makes the matchup more balanced.
I also out class you in the speed department.........you may not think this matters that much but it is actually vital for Fox. You make one little mistake and Fox has the speed to rush in and punish you.......HARD. Fox's speed is also useful for retreating purposes....i'll play a hit and run sort of game against a Marth, with blasters mixed in I can rack up a lot of damage.
Yes dair is outprioritized by anything you can throw at me, but it's not that big of a problem. Again I can full hop above you, shine stall,wait for an upsmash or tilt, and then dair you.......let the combos begin. You guys seem to think dair>utilt is the main Fox combo. after 50% i'll usually dair>jab>grab throw you forward or off the stage and get a few more blasters in, thats 30% right there. Then I retreat and SHL once again. Remember I never have to approach you, so I won't. I have a projectile and i'll use it to it's fullest. In the 70% range dair begins to combo into dsmash. Dsmash's trajectory sends you far horizontally so shine spiking is actually viable here because I can shine you before your in range to stage spike me with your up b. Fox also has a fantastic vertical and horizontal recovery which is underestimated sometimes and with the stalling properties of the shine, I have even more options.
Once you get in the 100% range all I need is one usmash and guess what, dair combos into it. Marth is not that heavy so it can usually kill him easily in the 100-120% range depending on which stage your on.
The matchup is in Marths' favor but it's not as big of an discrepancy as you guys make it out to be, Fox actually has a few advantages in this matchup..........60:40 Marth and I mean it.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Fox has no pokes and a mediocre approach.

Marth can zone him fairly easily.

Fox has good kill moves and combos. Marth can Smash DI the Dair and I think he could up b once he Smash DI's back enough.

Shine stall?

Why the hell are you going to jump above Marth and shine stall? Why would you willingly do something so unsafe? So you are going to put yourself in the air when I have a sword, and I have more range, more priority, and a better air game?

Ok, man whatever you say.

Jab>grab is not a combo. Marth can jump or up after the jab to interrupt.

Marth has no fair combos. WTF are you talking about?

Overall Fox just has very few options. He doesn't control the match and he can't really deal with Marth's pressure that well other then trying to get away and use forward b to escape and reset the spacing, but that's rather obvious and predictable.

Fox has to wait for mistakes or take gambles. Yeah he can run and Dair, but it's very very unsafe and risky.

ANYTIME Fox approaches the odds are heavily against him and most likely Marth will just swat him out. And Dair guarantees nothing since Marth can Smash DI.

Fox has no way to effectively deal with Marth's zoning, shield pressure or defensive game.

65/35 Marth or worse.

 

[-Mars-]

Fox has no pokes and a mediocre approach.

I won't ever approach

Marth can zone him fairly easily.

true

Fox has good kill moves and combos. Marth can Smash DI the Dair and I think he could up b once he Smash DI's back enough.

I'll shield and punish you on your way down

Shine stall?

yes what about it?

Why the hell are you going to jump above Marth and shine stall? Why would you willingly do something so unsafe? So you are going to put yourself in the air when I have a sword, and I have more range, more priority, and a better air game?

Ok, man whatever you say.

this is situational, I didn't mean for it to be used as a repetitive tactic

Jab>grab is not a combo. Marth can jump or up after the jab to interrupt.

Once again i'll shield and punish, I only jab once before the grab, I don't mean the rapid kicks

Marth has no fair combos. WTF are you talking about?

I meant his fair wall that he can do
Overall Fox just has very few options. He doesn't control the match and he can't really deal with Marth's pressure that well other then trying to get away and use forward b to escape and reset the spacing, but that's rather obvious and predictable.

What Fox player would be using the forward b on stage?

Fox has to wait for mistakes or take gambles. Yeah he can run and Dair, but it's very very unsafe and risky.

ANYTIME Fox approaches the odds are heavily against him and most likely Marth will just swat him out. And Dair guarantees nothing since Marth can Smash DI.

Once again I won't ever approach

Fox has no way to effectively deal with Marth's zoning, shield pressure or defensive game.

Defensive game? I won't be approaching so you will always be on the offensive, there will be no Marth defensive game
65/35 Marth or worse.

Fox goes 60:40 with Snake and Metaknight, I see no reason why Marth would be a worse matchup than with those characters.

 

[Steel]

Are you really arguing with "I'll just shield and punish"? That's like saying Marth will make a mistake, but when you try to punish us we'll just shield the up smash and punish you. That makes no sense.

 

[Shaya]

Marth has up b out of shield.

And to alleborate:
Fox has many moves that can, even shielded, is not too damaging to their game.

Any character with such a usual 'positive' will fall to Marth.

 

[Emblem Lord]

If Fox never approach how can he Dair Marth?

Dair isn't something that Fox can do out of shield reliably or defensively. Fox will have to approach to use it effectively and that's when he is in trouble.

If shine stall isn't reliable then there is no point in bringing it up. What's the point in bringing up situational strats that have very little merit.

If Marth Smash DI's out of the Dair while Fox is doing it, how will Fox be able to shield in time before Marth up b's him? And even if he could Marth can shield when he DI's out and it would be a PS since Foxes Dair throws out repeated hitboxes and then Marth would gain massive frame advantage.

If you jab and try to grab you get up bed and even then I could jump away which covers your options of grab or shield.

Marth's offensive game >>>>>>> Foxes' defensive game.

You really didn't dispute my points. You actually hurt your argument by saying you won't approach. You are making it sound like Fox won't be able to do anything.

Not that he can.

He pretty much takes a substantial risk anytime he tries to attack Marth. And sitting around waiting for mistakes isn't a viable strat at the highest level since because Marth has better tools to work with it's easier for him to make less mistakes.

Also you are insane if you think Fox goes 60/40 with MK and Snake. MK vs Fox is 70/30 MK's favor from what I can tell. Snake vs Fox is the same as Marth IMO. 65/35 or worse.

Shaya: Your post made no sense lol. I have no idea what you are trying to say. Maybe you should re-word it.

 

[Desire]

EL, so ur saying Fox got no approach?

Ehh,, i agree, but fox can laser spam and make marth approach.

Shine spike is just too risky, marth will DS and stage spike u instead.

but fox usmash isnt easy to shield, and kills marth at 92 or 94% at FD.


now we shall go over Pikachu

This yellow **** piss me off.

 

[Steel]

EL, so ur saying Fox got no approach?

Ehh,, i agree, but fox can laser spam and make marth approach.

Shine spike is just too risky, marth will DS and stage spike u instead.

but fox usmash isnt easy to shield, and kills marth at 92 or 94% at FD.


now we shall go over Pikachu

This yellow **** piss me off.

So once marth is too close for Fox to spam lasers what can Fox do? Nothing. He can't deal with Marth's zoning and walling as stated before.

@Marsulas, i'd actually recommend using forward b on stage, how else are you going to consistently rack up damage on Marth without lasers? That's the best way for Falco to deal Marth too, and even that match up is 60:40 M. Even then this isn't a very reliable method to win, which just shows how much Marth controls this match.

70:30 marth i say.

 

[Fatalzyntax]

As for edge guarding fox, fair,fair ,fair. Its such a pain in the behind for fox players.

If we did that, wouldn't you just be able to use phantasm to send us down to our deaths?

 

[Shaya]

You're right EL, that is a bit ambiguous...

Characters that have 'usual' good air approaches (i.e. auto cancels/many hits) are highly ineffective against Marth due to his ability to just Dolphin Slash through it all, from either front or back. G&W's bair is a prime example, pretty safe to use if the opponent is shielding, but if it hit's Marth shield it's our free hit. Such a positive aspect to many character's movesets are made nearly ineffective while opposing Marth.

Fox's phantasm doesn't send opponents down. Falco's does though.

Anyway considering Fox's best damage/combo/string starter is relating to his dair, Fox is screwed. (Look above)
Fox's grabs aren't as effective as Falco's in stringing together more damaging hits.
Fox's damage builder from a distance (laser) doesn't stun. Marth's speed makes it too easy for him to get to a fox shooting lasers.
Fox's other aerial moves like fair (Dolphin Slash'd if you are hit) or nair (range is lacking) aren't effective in pressuring Marth either.

I agree with 70-30 or similar, Marth's way.

 

[BacklashMarth]

Lol, the shine? Like thats gonna save fox. Shine spike is out of the question because of Dolphin Slashes invicibility. Shoot, i would even dolphin slash fox out of the air for being dumb enough to shine stall and think its going to do something. DB stall >>>> Shine stall btw. 70-30 Marth ftw.

 

[M@v]

Ill be willing to go 60:40 marth on this. I personally like fox vs marth, and think its a good fight. But I cant base my decision in my matchup guide on my opinions, its the genral concensus and FACT.

 

[Steel]

It's fact? LOL

So far you have not been able to prove us wrong that it is at least 65:35. We have shut down every "argument" you could think of and never fired anything back, seeing we were correct. Fox simply cannot compete with Marth.

EDIT: You guys also over-analyze a lot of your match ups. 60:40 Meta? 60:40 GW? lolerskates.

 

[M@v]

It's fact? LOL

So far you have not been able to prove us wrong that it is at least 65:35. We have shut down every "argument" you could think of and never fired anything back, seeing we were correct. Fox simply cannot compete with Marth.

EDIT: You guys also over-analyze a lot of your match ups. 60:40 Meta? 60:40 GW? lolerskates.

misread my post. im not saying its fact that its 60:40. Im just saying I cant base it on opinions. I still think 7:3 is extreme...I consider 7:3 total ownage, like Zero suit samus with her partial infinite on fox, and pika with his CG. 6:4 for me is an uphill battle, but not unwinnable.


And G&Ws placing was an inital guess. It was something I had to put up until we got more indepth about it. Ill change it when everyones fat and happy about the final agreement. And if you look, we discussed MK like guys in national debate finals. It went on forever...

One last thing...it seems most of you guys are assuming all fox players do is dair to utilt, all i see when you discuss fox's apporaches and aerials is dair, nothing else...Fair and nair are actually better approach moves, they just dont combo as well. Id rather have a solid approach than a combo though.

 

[Steel]

You failed to disprove the 70:30 ratio sir. Obviously we know Fox can do more than dair, but the fact remains Fox can't really do ANYTHING vs Marth. And don't even bring fair and nair into this discussion, Marth can shut down any aerial approach Fox brings.

And you brought up infinites and CG's characters have on you.. you are aware of Marth's 0-death on fox yeah?

 

[3xSwords]

*facepalm* how is 70-30 complete ownage?

You see 60-40 is supposed to be the one character has a bit of an advantage. 70-30 is supposed to be the uphill battle. 20-80 is near impossible matchup, and 10-90 is you will get ownded. 0-100 goes without saying.

If I said 80-20 Marth that would be extreme but its 70-30, so unless you prove otherwise we will keep it that way.

 

[Desire]

So once marth is too close for Fox to spam lasers what can Fox do? Nothing. He can't deal with Marth's zoning and walling as stated before.

@Marsulas, i'd actually recommend using forward b on stage, how else are you going to consistently rack up damage on Marth without lasers? That's the best way for Falco to deal Marth too, and even that match up is 60:40 M. Even then this isn't a very reliable method to win, which just shows how much Marth controls this match.

70:30 marth i say.

well, it is true marth's range ***** fox, but do u think fox will just stand there and let marth fair or DB him? i dont think so

 

[3xSwords]

This is Smash Center bringing you the top play in this week's top 10 plays.

.....

Announcer: "And 3x winds up.... What's he going to do? Is that..? Yes and he lands his second *facepalm* of the day. That had to hurt, Desire is on his knees. And 3x follows it up with a FAIL!!! Ooooo!!!! Desire goes down and the pin 1...2...3 ding ding. Game Over!!!!"

"Let's see, good technique, amazing power and most importantly great execution secured the win for 3x there.

Let's hear his post game comments."

3x: 'Well, all I have to say is he set himself up for that one'

"Back to you guys in the studio"

 

[M@v]

You failed to disprove the 70:30 ratio sir. Obviously we know Fox can do more than dair, but the fact remains Fox can't really do ANYTHING vs Marth. And don't even bring fair and nair into this discussion, Marth can shut down any aerial approach Fox brings.

And you brought up infinites and CG's characters have on you.. you are aware of Marth's 0-death on fox yeah?

thats hard to get caught in. I forget exactly how it goes, but is it the thing that ends with like a short hop dair meteor smash by marth?(I dont play marth, so I dont know the exact combo) I only fell victim to it once. We both agree its a hard matchup for fox, its just that my definitions of the win% ratios is different. Ill just change the ratios in the fox forum, and we should be fine. Im going to make marth the next discussion in the fox guide, so more foxs than just me and fenrir are posting their input. Ill probably change it tommorow, because there is a still an argument over there about G&W right now.

 

[Turbo Ether]

Don't overrate how hard Marth's spaced Fairs are to deal with. Shielded and whiffed Fairs are not perfectly safe. People don't stand there all day and let you space Fairs unless they don't know how to deal with it, especially if they're using a fast character. Spaced Fair is obviously one the best pokes in the game, but sheesh.