Match-Up Discussion #14! Fox

[ZHMT]

Don't overrate how hard Marth's spaced Fairs are to deal with. Shielded and whiffed Fairs are not perfectly safe. People don't stand there all day and let you space Fairs unless they don't know how to deal with it, especially if they're using a fast character. Spaced Fair is obviously one the best pokes in the game, but sheesh.

You mean Marth's down tilt right?

Otherwise....(to everyone else)

All marth has to do is stay near fox and space with fairs, dtilts, nairs, and its going to be very difficult to even attack Marth. You cant beat Marth if you cant hit him. Fox has a hard time finishing off Marth as well, its not going to be easy to up smash Marth and if its shielded...say hello to the dolphin slash. Fox is also extremely light and dolphin slash ko's at unfair percentages.

You may be able to use your blaster, but honestly, most stages have platforms that Marth can easily use to approach. Or you can just run through them.

I main Marth and I use Fox as well. I have seen both sides of the story.

Fox has to get past Marths blade, and if he does, Marth can just dolphin slash, people really need to see how much that is to get bye. This matchup is 65-35 or 70-30 Marth.

I mean honestly, we can say how to stop Fox, but I havent seen much from Fox users saying what to do against Marth...and thats cause there isnt much to begin with.

 

[Steel]

Very well, I'll write this one down as 70:30. We can always relook at ratios if a Fox player brings it up, but he better have a **** good argument.

 

[Turbo Ether]

You mean Marth's down tilt right?

All marth has to do is stay near fox and space with fairs, dtilts, nairs, and its going to be very difficult to even attack Marth. You cant beat Marth if you cant hit him. Fox has a hard time finishing off Marth as well, its not going to be easy to up smash Marth and if its shielded...say hello to the dolphin slash. Fox is also extremely light and dolphin slash ko's at unfair percentages.

You may be able to use your blaster, but honestly, most stages have platforms that Marth can easily use to approach. Or you can just run through them.

I main Marth and I use Fox as well. I have seen both sides of the story.

Fox has to get past Marths blade, and if he does, Marth can just dolphin slash, people really need to see how much that is to get bye. This matchup is 65-35 or 70-30 Marth.

I mean honestly, we can say how to stop Fox, but I havent seen much from Fox users saying what to do against Marth...and thats cause there isnt much to begin with.

I didn't comment on this matchup. I basically said people need to stop acting spaced Fairs make Marth impossible to hit. Am I wrong?

 

[ZHMT]

I didn't comment on this matchup. I basically said people need to stop acting spaced Fairs make Marth impossible to hit. Am I wrong?

I was simply referring to you because I thought you meant Marths downtilt, not his fair, as his poking move. The rest of the post was to everyone in general.

And no, it doesnt make Marth impossible to hit, just really hard and by the time you do, Marth will already have done a ton of damage with dancing blade and such. Marth is heavier as well...

 

[Desire]

steel2nd, pls,, can we move on to the 'yellow piece of ****' match-up ? thnxs

btw 65 : 35

 

[Steel]

steel2nd, pls,, can we move on to the 'yellow piece of ****' match-up ? thnxs

btw 65 : 35

why do you have trouble with him? marth >>> pikachu

btw prove it thnxs

 

[Fenrir VII]

Wow, there are a lot of misconceptions going on in this thread.

First of all, if a Fox relies on dair and dash attack to approach, he's pretty bad. That should never be it. of course, you throw each of those in your game, but not as your only approach.

now, to get gritty, Fox's bair trades or beats all of your aerials.

shine stalling a dair stops it from being so predictable...and usually throws off a lot of counter measures...and if he's a smart player, he will ALWAYS land behind your shield and shield himself, taking away grab and upB from you.

Approaching with a sliding shield beats every one of the keepaway moves you have been listing here. and out of shield, Fox can get a grab or an usmash, should you actually try them. If you attack his shield from the back, he can dsmash out of it usually faster than you can do anything.

Fox can combo marth pretty well with well placed shields to stop your attempts to break out. dair jab grab does about 20%...
and Marth dies before 90% from usmash, which is incredibly fast out of startup. and is used out of shield.

Now for edgeguarding...

Fox, as in Melee, is very easy to edgeguard, if the player is an idiot. If properly mixed, though, Fox's recovery is among the hardest to punish in the game

And contrary to what you believe, Fox can edgeguard marth quite easily...just....not with aerials or shine spikes.
See, marth's upB, when it lands on the stage, has a LOT of lag time....as I'm sure you all know. So Fox simply stands on the edge until you need to upB...then hogs the edge. you upB...if you spaced it correctly, you'll land on the stage. Fox will have pulled himself up into a stand from the edge, walk behind you and dsmash or fsmash...either one....and thats if usmash won't kill at that %. And at that point, it's just rinse and repeat until you die, basically... I've done this to quite a few Marths that are knowledgeable in the tourney scene...yes, it's very good.

Add to that the fact that he can seriously force you to approach...and more importantly, refill his usmashes and add a lot of damage with laser, and the match gets a lot worse than you are shading it here.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Marth's fair outranges Foxes Bair. If it trades then it's because you hit Marth's hand. Marth's fair hits on frame 4. Trading with Marth's fair isn't something you are going to consistently and it's not a reliable answer to Marth's zoning.

Landing behind Marth when he shields means you get reverse up bed. You took away none of Marth's options other then shield grab.

Why wouldn't Marth approach Fox?

Marth has a sword and Fox has poor options for dealing with zoning.

Marth will get in your face and stay there since Fox can't attempt to stop him without putting himself at risk. Dash to shield is all he has and from his shield his options are bad cept for his u-smash. Still Marth can outspace all of Foxes options.

And you mentioned one generic method of edgeguarding Marth. Marth still has better tools for edgeguarding Fox then Fox does to him though. You didn't really prove anything.

Dash to shield is good, but it's one option and can get predictable. If that's all Fox has then he is in trouble since he is so limited.

The main point is this. Fox is limited.

Marth isn't limited by Fox at all in this match. He plays his normal game here and Fox has to play a more restricted game.

Marth controls the match overall and Fox has no tools that truely add him a great deal in the match-up.

I personally think it's 65/35, but the others seem adamant about 70/30 in Marth's favor.

 

[Desire]

fox's bair =epic phail range

 

[Steel]

now, to get gritty, Fox's bair trades or beats all of your aerials.

Umm... no it doesn't? Marth controls the air in this match sir, let's leave that out of this discussion.

shine stalling a dair stops it from being so predictable...and usually throws off a lot of counter measures...and if he's a smart player, he will ALWAYS land behind your shield and shield himself, taking away grab and upB from you.

Why would you willingly put yourself into a risky position where you can easily be punished.. especially above Marth. And what is to stop Marth from simply walking two steps away while you shine-stall and turning around to punish this average-at-best approach? Also if Marth just stood there with his shield, you eat reverse up b.

Approaching with a sliding shield beats every one of the keepaway moves you have been listing here. and out of shield, Fox can get a grab or an usmash, should you actually try them. If you attack his shield from the back, he can dsmash out of it usually faster than you can do anything.

This may be the best approach Fox has as it is rather safe. Marth can easily do a retreating tipped fair on your shield though, which is completely safe. Other than that, this is something that can be picked up on and punished with a grab or shield breaker.

Fox can combo marth pretty well with well placed shields to stop your attempts to break out. dair jab grab does about 20%...
and Marth dies before 90% from usmash, which is incredibly fast out of startup. and is used out of shield.

That isn't a combo... Marth can smash DI out of the Dair and proceed to up b you... oh wait those well placed shields will stop me amirite???

Now for edgeguarding...

Fox, as in Melee, is very easy to edgeguard, if the player is an idiot. If properly mixed, though, Fox's recovery is among the hardest to punish in the game

Not taking anything away from Fox's recovery, obviously one has to mix it up. Even then though, Marth has plenty of tools to deal with it.

And contrary to what you believe, Fox can edgeguard marth quite easily...just....not with aerials or shine spikes.
See, marth's upB, when it lands on the stage, has a LOT of lag time....as I'm sure you all know. So Fox simply stands on the edge until you need to upB...then hogs the edge. you upB...if you spaced it correctly, you'll land on the stage. Fox will have pulled himself up into a stand from the edge, walk behind you and dsmash or fsmash...either one....and thats if usmash won't kill at that %. And at that point, it's just rinse and repeat until you die, basically... I've done this to quite a few Marths that are knowledgeable in the tourney scene...yes, it's very good.

.... You're saying Marth's in tourneys are up b'ng onto the stage on purpose? They aren't very bright then. That isn't how Marth recovers.

Then you will say "well I can just edge hog marth", this is where his dancing blade stall comes in. You think he is about to up b, you drop down and grab the ledge, then Marth forward b's and is able to stall in the air for about a second. He then proceeds to pseudo-stage spike you and probably end up gimping you.

Add to that the fact that he can seriously force you to approach...and more importantly, refill his usmashes and add a lot of damage with laser, and the match gets a lot worse than you are shading it here.

And what happens when Marth is close enough that you can't spam lasers anymore? You fall prey to Marth's zoning. Fox simply does not have the tools to compete with it. That sword is long sir, a good Marth won't let you get past it.

 

[Desire]

why do you have trouble with him? marth >>> pikachu

btw prove it thnxs

rollerking 3 stocked me TWICE (luck maybe)
and i lost to couple more pika,
i cant handle those spammin moves, srry
i guess its just me then

DK? Yoshi? Lucas?

 

[3xSwords]

Fox's bair does not beat any of Marth's properly spaced aerials. Properly spaced is the key word.

Also if a Fox lands behind a shield with a dair, they can still be hit upB, the Marth just needs to do a reverse DS OOS. And the thing is the DS can hit you while you are still attacking us so shielding isn't going to help.

If you use sliding shield, we use SB. If this lands once even if it doesn't break your shield and give us the free kill it will lower you shield significantly enough to allow us to abuse our offensive range, without worrying about being shielded, because the move will either shield poke or break you shield.

Again the only way that you really force us to approach is with the lasers. However, if you PS lasers, it will significantly reduce the damage that is dealt. If this tactic doesn't piss you off enough that you would approach Marth instead, the flow of your game will drastically change, because the amount of damage dealt with your lasers will be significantly lower than you usually expect.

Edge guarding Marth is also not as easy as you say. If the Marth is smart he will use a DB to stall occasionally, and he may use his second with an aerial to go on the occasional offensive. Then with this he should be able to DS onto the edge safely.

If you can give me a viable approach with Fox that will work against Marth, then this matchup will change from its current status. However the only viable approach as of now is the sliding shield, which sacrifices defense capabilities for offensive ones, and could be potential disastrous for the Fox, so as of now the ratio stays 70-30.

 

[3xSwords]

wtf double post? **** smashboards >_>

Also lol we all said like the same thing

 

[Steel]

rollerking 3 stocked me TWICE (luck maybe)
and i lost to couple more pika,
i cant handle those spammin moves, srry
i guess its just me then

DK? Yoshi? Lucas?

If he 3 stocked you twice it isn't luck, he must be a better player.

You know you can just jab his jolts.. right?

 

[Fenrir VII]

Marth's fair outranges Foxes Bair. If it trades then it's because you hit Marth's hand. Marth's fair hits on frame 4. Trading with Marth's fair isn't something you are going to consistently and it's not a reliable answer to Marth's zoning.

Umm... no it doesn't? Marth controls the air in this match sir, let's leave that out of this discussion.

Fox's bair does not beat any of Marth's properly spaced aerials. Properly spaced is the key word.

Um. yeah, it does. Blanket statements like Steel2nd's here are those that lead to all the misconceptions around here. marth does not "control the air game" and therefore, it should not be left out of the discussion. During the attack, Fox's bair can land before the fair is out, while the fair is out (even tipped range), and after it is gone. Yes, it trades with the middle one there...even if spaced well. You will actually trade a bair for a tipped fair. Since Fox's foot comes out as far as it does from his body, the range that you can attack him during his wind up is much smaller than his attacking range, so keep him OUT of his bair is not an option. I'm assuming the Fox player spaces well...just as all of you are assuming the Marth player does. and btw, the bair beats every other aerial from the horizontal range...

Landing behind Marth when he shields means you get reverse up bed. You took away none of Marth's options other then shield grab.

Why would you willingly put yourself into a risky position where you can easily be punished.. especially above Marth. And what is to stop Marth from simply walking two steps away while you shine-stall and turning around to punish this average-at-best approach? Also if Marth just stood there with his shield, you eat reverse up b.

Also if a Fox lands behind a shield with a dair, they can still be hit upB, the Marth just needs to do a reverse DS OOS. And the thing is the DS can hit you while you are still attacking us so shielding isn't going to help.

sigh...the reverse upB can be power shielded in time...leaving you open... Yes, it can. That's why I said it takes away the upB as well.

Why wouldn't Marth approach Fox?

Marth has a sword and Fox has poor options for dealing with zoning.

Marth will get in your face and stay there since Fox can't attempt to stop him without putting himself at risk. Dash to shield is all he has and from his shield his options are bad cept for his u-smash. Still Marth can outspace all of Foxes options.

And what happens when Marth is close enough that you can't spam lasers anymore? You fall prey to Marth's zoning. Fox simply does not have the tools to compete with it. That sword is long sir, a good Marth won't let you get past it.

Oddly, the third person didn't mention zoning... Yes, Marth can outspace Fox from Fox's shield...that's really not surprising to anybody here...but also, if he stands in shield, he's begging to lose anyway. If you make Marth jump and aerial, you get a free run under...and if you get that, Fox has pretty much anything he wants. Yes, after one fair, I can run under your SH and grab if you hit the ground or usmash if I'm fast enough. Now, you can delay your fair and stop that approach, in which case I gcan get that usmash. and barring that, I run a bit early. Yes, Emblem, I'm arguing strategy again. sue me. hehe..

And you mentioned one generic method of edgeguarding Marth. Marth still has better tools for edgeguarding Fox then Fox does to him though. You didn't really prove anything.

Not taking anything away from Fox's recovery, obviously one has to mix it up. Even then though, Marth has plenty of tools to deal with it.

.... You're saying Marth's in tourneys are up b'ng onto the stage on purpose? They aren't very bright then. That isn't how Marth recovers.

Then you will say "well I can just edge hog marth", this is where his dancing blade stall comes in. You think he is about to up b, you drop down and grab the ledge, then Marth forward b's and is able to stall in the air for about a second. He then proceeds to pseudo-stage spike you and probably end up gimping you.

Edge guarding Marth is also not as easy as you say. If the Marth is smart he will use a DB to stall occasionally, and he may use his second with an aerial to go on the occasional offensive. Then with this he should be able to DS onto the edge safely.

Marth has better tools for edgeguarding a more adaptable recovery? talk about proving nothing...and also, i'm not sure Marth does have better tools, but I won't just argue semantics.

I know all about the DB stall...that's obvious If you stall like that below the ledge, I can react and get the spike on you... if you're not below the ledge, I won't be on it yet. or if I really think I have time for it, 2nd jump shine ledge grab again...it's pretty fast. that's only if I predict the stall, though...admittedly.

and I'm not going to edge hog while you still have a second jump, that's suicide....so no to you.

Dash to shield is good, but it's one option and can get predictable. If that's all Fox has then he is in trouble since he is so limited.

This may be the best approach Fox has as it is rather safe. Marth can easily do a retreating tipped fair on your shield though, which is completely safe. Other than that, this is something that can be picked up on and punished with a grab or shield breaker.

If you use sliding shield, we use SB. If this lands once even if it doesn't break your shield and give us the free kill it will lower you shield significantly enough to allow us to abuse our offensive range, without worrying about being shielded, because the move will either shield poke or break you shield.

haha wow...you'll use shield breaker against it? maybe this discussion is a lost cause after all...

I agree that's one option, but it applies pressure. I'm not saying it's the only option, but it is MUCH better than a FH dair that many people atuo-think of when they think Fox. other than that is the bair dsmash...which is unpunishable from shield...and SH fair also unpunishable from shield....so if you get used to the approach shield and stop using aerials, he has easy mixups...that's just the best way to deal with aerial zoning from marth...and even dtilt.

the retreating Fair is correct, but that's aproached with another shield approach, and we're back to the beginning, with less stage behind you...nothing lost.

The main point is this. Fox is limited.

How can you outright come out and say a character that almost nobody plays is limited? I mean, if the game were a couple years old, I would understand, but it's not. Fox is completely ground floor...nobody's really invented stuff, save a few of us. I agree that Fox as currently thought of is limited...but that's not all that the character is capable of...

That isn't a combo... Marth can smash DI out of the Dair and proceed to up b you... oh wait those well placed shields will stop me amirite???

Actually, no...you can't SDI out of it on account of the jab...the dair only hits about 3-5 or so hits normally (I know it hits more, but when used properly), so you don't get far enough away...and if you try to SDI the jab, the grab will hit before your upb...

Again the only way that you really force us to approach is with the lasers. However, if you PS lasers, it will significantly reduce the damage that is dealt. If this tactic doesn't piss you off enough that you would approach Marth instead, the flow of your game will drastically change, because the amount of damage dealt with your lasers will be significantly lower than you usually expect.

is that seriously an argument? hahaha. the lasers weren't what we expected? lol wow...if we do 10%, that's 10%, and about 4 moves refilled...I'm happy with that. I'm saying it's free damage. you also can't PS every laser anyway...but that doesn't even matter.

If you can give me a viable approach with Fox that will work against Marth, then this matchup will change from its current status. However the only viable approach as of now is the sliding shield, which sacrifices defense capabilities for offensive ones, and could be potential disastrous for the Fox, so as of now the ratio stays 70-30.

I'm not sure how shield sacrifices defense, really...but ok then. I listed several up there that work once the shield stops working...at first, against the aerial game, sliding shield works fine. if you start adjusting, Fox has the capability to...so yeah, basically.

 

[takeurlife2]

before someone says you can, you CANT 0-death fthrow dair combo fox...

 

[Emblem Lord]

Fair is just one zoning tool. Marth also has his jabs, d-tilt and DB.

Marth can up b while you are hitting his shield. You will perfectshield absolutely nothing.

I can tell Fox is limited from his moveset.

Compare his moveset to Marth's.

Take your time.

...

Ok, get it now? Good.

Fox has ONE good approach option and Marth has several. Marth has SEVERAL ways to zone Fox. Fox has no RELIABLE answer to Marth's zoning. Marth has good kill moves and so does Fox, but Foxes are safer on block. Kill moves go to him.

Foxes comboability means less here since approaching with a combo starter can get him murdered, since he is outranged and outprioritized.

Also...you said of Fox can make Marth jump....how the hell does he do this? Marth jumps when he so chooses. If you wanna run in and grab or u-smash, then you have to be close enough that you could run as Marth rises with his SH, but far enough that you needn't worry about getting hit. It takes a specific spacing and Marth has much more control over that spacing.

And you STILL aren't showing how this match could be...what do you think it is?

60/40?

Nah. I just don't see it.

 

[Shaya]

*Sigh*.

I didn't need to read all of Fenrir's post(s). Within the first couple of sentences I realised he has NOT read many [or any] comments made by us so far, and has just restated already debunked ideas about Fox's "advantages".

Here's the situation in a couple of lines:
Marth controls the ground.
Marth has everything to counter your aerial approach.
Fox cannot beat Marth on the ground, and can only beat 'Beat' Marth while both are in the air. However, Marth's range and attack speed of his aerials surpasses Fox, most of the time the situation is in Marth's favour.

Here's an elongated version:
Fenrir, you're playing this game at a low level, you're thinking this game at a low level. I play and enjoy playing Fox myself, I beat a lot of people with my Fox; yet at a higher level my Fox fails, and I'm well aware of the strengths of his moveset.

Any Fox player that can state ANYTHING that will work to out-do Marth's ground game will be melted. Dtilt will even outprio your phantasm, as does ftilt. Most of Fox's ground moves while fast output and potentially high damage will result in defeat. Fox's moves are laggy on the cooldown.

Any air approach Fox has is arguable, but if Marth is on the ground during your air approaches Fox can easily be shut down, with or without Dolphin Slash.

 

[Fenrir VII]

Here's an elongated version:
Fenrir, you're playing this game at a low level, you're thinking this game at a low level. I play and enjoy playing Fox myself, I beat a lot of people with my Fox; yet at a higher level my Fox fails, and I'm well aware of the strengths of his moveset.

Any Fox player that can state ANYTHING that will work to out-do Marth's ground game will be melted. Dtilt will even outprio your phantasm, as does ftilt. Most of Fox's ground moves while fast output and potentially high damage will result in defeat. Fox's moves are laggy on the cooldown.

um...excuse me? I'm playing at a low level? how can you even say that? nice assumption, buddy. At FAST1, I was teaching Fox strat to M2k during gameplay...like, I'm not just trying to throw names around, but are you serious right now?

And you go from saying i'm not playing at a high level to saying Marth can beat "phantasm" (actually, illusion, but ok) ??? As if illusion has EVER had any priority or usefulness as an attacking move. Obviously you are beneath me in Fox knowledge...so where do you step off insulting me like that?

I mean, to even make a point about something beating illusion...uh...duh? where ahave you been for the past oh...7 years?

shoo shoo annoyance.

 

[Shaya]

I say phantasm (oops I meant illusion) because it happens to be one of the only fast approaches Fox has against Marth.

Do you have anything else to say? Continue to be arrogant. Teaching a person how to play Fox doesn't mean anything. I could teach you how to play Marth. THEN perhaps you'd understand why it is so much in our favour by a long shot.

You're unsensible and dillusional. Perhaps you should grow up yourself, you're making yourself and the whole Fox community out to be a joke, and be assured, we're laughing.

 

[-Mars-]

I say phantasm (oops I meant illusion) because it happens to be one of the only fast approaches Fox has against Marth.

Do you have anything else to say? Continue to be arrogant. Teaching a person how to play Fox doesn't mean anything. I could teach you how to play Marth. THEN perhaps you'd understand why it is so much in our favour by a long shot.

You're unsensible and dillusional. Perhaps you should grow up yourself, you're making yourself and the whole Fox community out to be a joke, and be assured, we're laughing.

I guarantee you that Fenrir would beat you, so you talking down to him really makes you sound clueless and confused. How is he making Fox players out to be a joke? All he's doing is taking your statements and refuting them...nothing more; he only started to be "arrogant" when you decided to make it personal.

 

[BarDulL]

Marth can kill Fox in a 0% to death combo.

Fthrow, Fthrow, Dair spike, grab the ledge for invincibility/edgehog when Fox is coming back with Up B.

It works on all of the space animals, Fox/Falco/Wolf have different timings, however.

It's unavoidable. I do it on Gamble (SoCal's Fox main) all the time.

If you get the grab, but you don't think you can get the spike off, you can always Fthrow, Fthrow, Fsmash tip.

Aside from those combos, I just keep my spacing and keep the pressure on. Hope this helps.

Edit: It is definitely in Marth's favor in any space animal match up. 65:35 sounds like an accurate ratio to me.

Edit2: Fox/Falco/Wolf can't DI out of Marth's first 2 Fthrows starting at 0%.

 

[Fenrir VII]

before someone says you can, you CANT 0-death fthrow dair combo fox...

Marth can kill Fox in a 0% to death combo.

Fthrow, Fthrow, Dair spike, grab the ledge for invincibility/edgehog when Fox is coming back with Up B.

haha good call takeurlife2. : )

 

[Shaya]

I guarantee you that Fenrir would beat you, so you talking down to him really makes you sound clueless and confused. How is he making Fox players out to be a joke? All he's doing is taking your statements and refuting them...nothing more; he only started to be "arrogant" when you decided to make it personal.

Whether or not he can beat me is conjecture.
We're talking high level of game here.

He doesn't refute me, he just throws out personal bias. He doesn't provide facts, he just goes "haha wrong". Yet every Marth player, and OTHERS are telling him he is wrong. When he actually grows the balls to give a real example we shut it down within a couple of minutes. Yet he still stands 'tall' and arrogant. He has failed to represent the Fox boards accurately or in a light that makes us believe him. The fact that he is fighting so relentlessy only means one thing... He is... and also so must be most of you: Dillusional.

Dillusional is the right word here. Perhaps the whole Fox community falls under this category?

 

[BarDulL]

If someone can prove that combo doesn't work, let me know. So far, its worked the zillion times I've done it.

=/

 

[BacklashMarth]

I think the fox fans should quit while they are ahead. Its actually 70-30 marth but just to appease you i will merit 90-50 still in marths favor if u want ur number to be higher. (u think i smart not?)

 

[Shaya]

I think the fox fans should quit while they are ahead. Its actually 70-30 marth but just to appease you i will merit 90-50 still in marths favor if u want ur number to be higher. (u think i smart not?)

That's more favourable than they deserve. Maths shows us that is 65-35 in a rounded to 100 fashion. (Well actually 64.3-35.7, but who's counting?). 100-40 works though.

 

[Turbo Ether]

If someone can prove that combo doesn't work, let me know. So far, its worked the zillion times I've done it.

=/

Fox's 2nd jump+Fair for height and UpB isn't enough to get back? Interesting.

 

[Fenrir VII]

Whether or not he can beat me is conjecture.
We're talking high level of game here.

He doesn't refute me, he just throws out personal bias. He doesn't provide facts, he just goes "haha wrong". Yet every Marth player, and OTHERS are telling him he is wrong. When he actually grows the balls to give a real example we shut it down within a couple of minutes. Yet he still stands 'tall' and arrogant. He has failed to represent the Fox boards accurately or in a light that makes us believe him. The fact that he is fighting so relentlessy only means one thing... He is... and also so must be most of you: Dillusional.

Dillusional is the right word here. Perhaps the whole Fox community falls under this category?

I agree. whether I can beat you or not is completely beside the point.
And yes, we are talking a high level

First of all. I would dare say that i know more about Fox than pretty much anybody on this board...that's a reasonable estimate...and I'm not against saying that each of you probably knows more about Marth than I. Let's get that out there. Now...another fact. Fox is an incredibly under-played character...I can name a handful of Foxes in the US...an that's it. There's a good chance that i know slightly more about marth than you know about Fox...at that point. I'm not saying it's true...I'm just saying there's the chance of it, as 90% of the Foxes today think dair utilt is god.

Therefore, I am entitled to my opinion about the match as a main of the opposite character. I believe that everything I have said is viable in the match...and I believe it to be no worse than a 6-4...to be honest.

but to put it into perspective...I am a Fox main on a marth board arguing that Fox has a winnable match against Marth. How hard is it to understand that 80% of the people here are going to tell me I am wrong? Should I, then, take myself and back down to claims I think are wrong? I don't think so, anyway. I think that the boards need to work together to get some sort of matchup chart going...but that's not going to happen here, as it seems the Marths are good and ready to smack any Fox that comes in here.

So when you say everyone around is saying i'm wrong....um...of course they are. Nobody (me included) fully understands Fox yet...I believe in the match wholeheartedly, and i'm trying to say something here that many people will automatically disagree with. When you say you shut it down, I can provide evidence to the contrary.

I only responded out of arrogance, because you attacked me in arrogance. by saying I was playing at a low level, you showed that you were willing to say things that you don't know to be true...just to undermine and demean me... and by all means, if that's how you get your kicks, go ahead...but don't get your poor little feelings hurt when I actually retaliate.

I cannot hope to convince you all. i understood that when i came in here, but I felt that the view of a tournament Fox player needed to be stated. I had certainly hoped for a slightly better reaction, but honestly, I don't mind the one I got. I've gotten to say most of what I wanted to say, and if you all decide that marth owns Fox, well, that's your issue...be my guest.

I am trying to give you what i believe is an accurate portrayal of a matchup, but if you think it's a hard counter, then go ahead. honestly.

Every Fox who beats a Marth will have that much more recognition, if the Marth thinks it's impossible...

You can say I'm delusional. that's fine. your opinion matters nothing to me. After you pulled illusion as an example, your ignorance was portrayed to the board. and even before that, i didn't care what anybody really thinks of me. You, for one are elitist and really need to get over that self esteem thing...

as for everybody else that I debated/argued with...I really do try to not make this personal. At times, i cross that line, and I apologize for that. i believe that some of you are misguided and mistaken...but I also realize I cannot persuade you differently, so tournaments and matchups later on will have to decide it once and for all.

in the end, we main different characters...debates will be heated, but basically, this isn't worth my time anymore, so au revoir....good debating.

 

[BarDulL]

Fox's 2nd jump+Fair for height and UpB isn't enough to get back? Interesting.

Actually, that's a really good point. I'll have to try it out, but I know for certain it works on Falco/Wolf primarily because they don't have a move like Fox's Fair, not to mention their Up B's do not go as far as Fox's.

The only problem with 2nd Jump + Fair though is that it could leave Fox open for a potential stage spike from Marth's Fair/Up B, which at that point you're really screwed. I'll need a human opponent to try this out on, though.

 

[M@v]

I say phantasm (oops I meant illusion) because it happens to be one of the only fast approaches Fox has against Marth.

I had to lol at this. Seriously if a fox trys to use illusion to approach anyone he has a mental block. Maybe once in a blue moon to mix it up, but its cool down is horrific for an approach move, and it can punished to hell and back. Im sorry im being picky, but I had to address that.


Also since we are blazing away here about this, Im going to change our matchup discussion to Marth tommorow morning after I get back from my 8:OOAM class. I want everyone on both boards to be fat and happy with this one.

 

[BacklashMarth]

Hmm....epic walls of text. Seem to be a lot of those here on the marth boards lately.

 

[Shaya]

I try not to be elitist.
I try not to bring personal clashes into this either (personal clashes with persons, or my experience in the match of Marth vs Fox)

What the problem here is, is that we as a community are not being presented real items to debate against. We just laugh it off as rare/situational, easily countered in those situations, silly conjecture or just doesn't work.

I feel that you and the Fox boards who have come here are very 'patriotic' to your main, I understand this.

When it comes down to high level of play Marth is winning more consistantly than Fox. In the same context Marth is highly agreed to have superior matchups to the other two space animals. In that regard Fox does not change the dynamic greatly, his ability to beat Marth are heavily hindered in the same fashion as the others. I realise there is perhaps some slight naivity comparing Fox to Falco/Wolf, but I don't consider it a glaring inconsistancy in my argument.

When it comes to the combo...
It works.
Fox's ability to recover however, is stronger. Unfortunately for him Marth is at the advantage once the move has been executed and Fox's options are very limited; i.e. he can just be edgehogged or hit into the stage (i.e. stage spike) with Dolphin Slash, or other moves.

 

[BarDulL]

I tested it, and it seems the downward momentum received from Marth's Dair along with the lag on Fox's Fair doesn't really help Fox recover at all.

So yes, as long as Marth gets the Edge Hog as soon as Fox begins to Up B, it's an inevitable loss of a stock.

 

[M@v]

Hey dont look at me, Ive been trying to take this from as neutral a standpoint as possible, and I have posted from my past experience in matches. Like I said, fox discussion is going to marth starting tommorow in fox boards. I encourage you guys to go there too. I didnt expect this to turn into a joint thing; but the point of matchup guides are to be as accurate as possible. So lets make sure we get it right, with enough input from both sides. Me and fenrir were really the only people to post here, Fenrir a lot more than me, so I want to get some more people in on this like zhamy, letterbomb, rpk, and jigglyzelda, all people who have helped the fox matchup thread out Massively by regularly posting about every matchup, along with fenrir and myself.

 

[Turbo Ether]

I like this format of having Marth's matchups in different threads. It keeps the board busy.

 

[Shaya]

I like this format of having Marth's matchups in different threads. It keeps the board busy.

It also makes it a lot easier to read what is being said in the context.
And also to add things.

Many other boards use the same system, I find it heavily annoying when a character only has one thread for all it's matchup discussion (MK, DK and Fox are some fresh examples in my mind).

Organisation is great, srsly.

In final about the matchup though:
It is most likely 65:35, Marth's favour. 70-30 is possible. That's at the current level of the metagame. Things can always change though. Perhaps finding out that shine is the new z cancel, ho ho ho.

 

[DarkRunner00]

Shaya, I believe Fenrir is done. To his point, and in your defence, I didn't read your last piece of text: because no offense, he was correct when he stated you portrayed your ignorance.

I do it too, but I'm a casual player discussing with competing professionals.

0-Death combo doesn't exist. Yeah it works... on really crappy people. And even at low percents... Dair is now considered to be a meteor smash. therefore it is easily meteor canceled. grab damage? = 20% top... you're not gonna kill someone at 20%

They'll still have their 2nd jump. Depending on the stage they may be able to utilize a wall jump. Then they'll have their Fire!...

In defence, you may consider edgehogging... or attemp a second dair. That is all viable.

I always believed that Marth had advantages over Fox. Easily.

Fenrir was right saying fox is underdeveloped. Less than Marth, easily.

But 70/30 imo is about unreasonable.

Fenrir put a lot of good strats. Marth has a bunch of great and even better strats. But each of them is situaional. The Shines... and edgehogs... perfect shielding... Iono there was so much text I've forgotten already... WALLS MAN WALLS...

but yes Marth has a great counter for a lot of Fox stuff, he out ranges him and so forth.

The blaster will rack damage. at 80% Marth is already in a danger zone. Where yes, he can approach and devestate the FOX... All the strats Fenrir has mentioned are all viable. As all the counter moves that people on our boards spoke about are all viable.

(this isn't important: but I'm a bit depressed atm and so I'm using this board as meditation so I may be off more than I'm usually)

anyway. I believe its 65/35 Marth. 70/30 is ****.

 

[BarDulL]

0-Death combo doesn't exist. Yeah it works... on really crappy people. And even at low percents... Dair is now considered to be a meteor smash. therefore it is easily meteor canceled. grab damage? = 20% top... you're not gonna kill someone at 20%

They'll still have their 2nd jump. Depending on the stage they may be able to utilize a wall jump. Then they'll have their Fire!...

In defence, you may consider edgehogging... or attemp a second dair. That is all viable.

Unfortunately, this is not the case. If a Marth grabs a Fox at 0%, and is within reasonable distance of the edge, the Fox lost his stock. This applies on all neutrals, and it would make sense to work on most CPs.

Also, have you tried meteor cancelling and living through that combo? I can't seem to do it while I'm Fox.

The only stage that could feasibly allow Fox to use a wall jump on is Yoshi's Island, which I'll try out later. I don't think it works, though.

Edit: Actually, it might. Give me a couple minutes.

Edit 2: You can definitely do it on Yoshi's Island. FD is impossible.

 

[3xSwords]

Um. yeah, it does. Blanket statements like Steel2nd's here are those that lead to all the misconceptions around here. marth does not "control the air game" and therefore, it should not be left out of the discussion. During the attack, Fox's bair can land before the fair is out, while the fair is out (even tipped range), and after it is gone. Yes, it trades with the middle one there...even if spaced well. You will actually trade a bair for a tipped fair. Since Fox's foot comes out as far as it does from his body, the range that you can attack him during his wind up is much smaller than his attacking range, so keep him OUT of his bair is not an option. I'm assuming the Fox player spaces well...just as all of you are assuming the Marth player does. and btw, the bair beats every other aerial from the horizontal range...

In what way does a disjointed hitbox lose to fox's bair hitbox. If I fair'd you and hit where you foot would be as you did a bair than let me tell you, Fox will receive damage while Marth will be unharmed.

sigh...the reverse upB can be power shielded in time...leaving you open... Yes, it can. That's why I said it takes away the upB as well.

Which is why I said you can DS while Fox is still attacking because we have invincibility frames in the beginning 5 frames of the attack. So no you can't PS in time.

Oddly, the third person didn't mention zoning... Yes, Marth can outspace Fox from Fox's shield...that's really not surprising to anybody here...but also, if he stands in shield, he's begging to lose anyway. If you make Marth jump and aerial, you get a free run under...and if you get that, Fox has pretty much anything he wants. Yes, after one fair, I can run under your SH and grab if you hit the ground or usmash if I'm fast enough. Now, you can delay your fair and stop that approach, in which case I gcan get that usmash. and barring that, I run a bit early. Yes, Emblem, I'm arguing strategy again. sue me. hehe..

You never mentioned the dtilt trap. If we are talking strategy what would you do to counter that? Also the strategy of running under the fair may work OOS (may not will), but if we FF fair and hit your shield there is nothing you can do about it. If you decide to dash OOS and u-smash or grab, then we can hit you with another move of our choice. If you just shield cancel u-smash, it would miss if we properly spaced.

Marth has better tools for edgeguarding a more adaptable recovery? talk about proving nothing...and also, i'm not sure Marth does have better tools, but I won't just argue semantics.

And what is stopping us from saying this if you are not going to counter? You say you know a lot about Fox, but you never really shared it did you? You never explained how Fox could "mix it up off the stage and have one of the toughest recoveries to gimp." -_- Talk about generic....

I know all about the DB stall...that's obvious If you stall like that below the ledge, I can react and get the spike on you... if you're not below the ledge, I won't be on it yet. or if I really think I have time for it, 2nd jump shine ledge grab again...it's pretty fast. that's only if I predict the stall, though...admittedly.


and I'm not going to edge hog while you still have a second jump, that's suicide....so no to you.

That last one just destroyed your whole edgeguarding game argument.... If Fox can not edge hog while we have our second jump left than your edge guard on Marth will never even start. So if we just save our second jump that means we have pretty much a guaranteed way onto the edge.

haha wow...you'll use shield breaker against it? maybe this discussion is a lost cause after all...

........Ok.......... Shieldbreaker is a move that should be used in Marth's arsenal. If you are saying its not a viable move than, no you.

I agree that's one option, but it applies pressure. I'm not saying it's the only option, but it is MUCH better than a FH dair that many people atuo-think of when they think Fox. other than that is the bair dsmash...which is unpunishable from shield...and SH fair also unpunishable from shield....so if you get used to the approach shield and stop using aerials, he has easy mixups...that's just the best way to deal with aerial zoning from marth...and even dtilt.

No. Bair>d-smash is punishable, so is SH fair. If we shield it, we can attack while you are still attacking the shield. Let me clarify. While you fair is in its 2nd strike out of however many and you are hitting our shield. We can DS OOS and hit you, because of our invincibility frames.

Also if we shieldbreaker and it lands, then your shield will be diminished. I wonder what this could mean? Your only viable approach has been taken away. Why? If you try another sliding shield the next attack will shield poke or shield break.

the retreating Fair is correct, but that's aproached with another shield approach, and we're back to the beginning, with less stage behind you...nothing lost.

No you, 3/4 of your shield is lost because Marth SB'd.

How can you outright come out and say a character that almost nobody plays is limited? I mean, if the game were a couple years old, I would understand, but it's not. Fox is completely ground floor...nobody's really invented stuff, save a few of us. I agree that Fox as currently thought of is limited...but that's not all that the character is capable of...

And we are discussing Fox's current metagame. How the **** did you think about considering a character's potential in a match up discussion?

And you never tell us anything we don't counter.

Actually, no...you can't SDI out of it on account of the jab...the dair only hits about 3-5 or so hits normally (I know it hits more, but when used properly), so you don't get far enough away...and if you try to SDI the jab, the grab will hit before your upb...

Unless the combo actually keeps Marth in hitstun he will get out. This is because DS now has invincibility frames in frame 1 which means you will be hit out of your grab. And every jab > grab combo is escapable.

I'm not sure how shield sacrifices defense, really...but ok then. I listed several up there that work once the shield stops working...at first, against the aerial game, sliding shield works fine. if you start adjusting, Fox has the capability to...so yeah, basically.

So yeah basically what?

If we SB'd you sacrificed your defense because you won't be able to block most of our attacks anymore. Ok, make a different counter statement now.

I just countered your statement. The intelligent people here, get the f***in thing, Fox is not all about his dair. However, the other things you listed are clearly counterable in a practical way. Unless you are saying these counters are wrong then tell me HOW and in WHAT WAY.

This is to all you Fox mainers not just Fenrir.

EDIT: And no 70-30 is not ****. People need to get this misconception out of their heads. 60-40 has some magical properties and because it looks so nice people use it to describe almost all matchups where there is any sort of advantage. We only dare go into the realm of 70-30 if the advantage is too much. Well no fix your mindset.

If 50-50 is even

then 60-40 is slight advantage.

No 55-45 means you have such a small advantage it may as well not exist.

70-30 is you have an advantage. This is an uphill battle for the guy on the other end, but is winnable.

80-20 is ****

90-10 is near impossible

100-0 'nuff said.

Ok?