Match-Up Discussion #14! Fox

[takeurlife2]

fox's recovery is much better than wolf and falco's, and since fox's animation and distance is different during the fthrow, he CAN DI out of it. Tested with RoyR.

im the one who mainstreemed the fthrow dair 0-death combos, i kinda know =p

 

[M@v]

*intrudes again*Alright I officially started the fox vs Marth discussion in the fox matchup guide
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=5328665&posted=1#post5328665
Fire away. I told them to post here as well.

 

[Emblem Lord]

lol. What?

Uhhh...what could possibly be posted that hasn't been posted already?

 

[M@v]

Eh. I guess just to help get it started. I promised you guys I would get the fox guide on the same topic, at least let them post their opinions about this, since me and fenrir were pretty much the only fox posters here. Its really likely not going to change 6:4-7:3, moreso towards 7:3

 

[Emblem Lord]

Eh.

Do your thing ma dood.

 

[M@v]

I will =P. I feel everyone needs to voice their opinion, but like I said, its likely not going to change from 7:3

 

[Emblem Lord]

I will take this as a chance to remind everyone I don't think it's 70/30. I think it's 65/35. I really don't think it's THAT bad.

But...as a community if the others feel like 70/30 is more accurate then I'm really in no position to argue with them.

 

[M@v]

ill see what happens. Right now the fox guide only goes in multiples of ten(60:40, 70:30, etc.) If its necessary, ill make a 65:35 spot on the list for marth.

Bear in mind I only created that fox matchup thread a month ago, mainly because the guy who made the initial one went MIA in
May. So, in my Honest opinion, it still needs a lot of work. But that will take time.

 

[Steel]

Threw in my input from Fox's standpoint.

 

[BarDulL]

fox's recovery is much better than wolf and falco's, and since fox's animation and distance is different during the fthrow, he CAN DI out of it. Tested with RoyR.

im the one who mainstreemed the fthrow dair 0-death combos, i kinda know =p

I'm sorry, I had no idea you "mainstreamed" it on the Marth boards, but I've known about this combo for a long time, and I'm fairly certain it works when it's timed correctly.

Fox can't DI out of Marth's Fthrow while at 0%. He also can't escape a second grab if Marth dash grabs fast enough. I know this for certain, but if there is some way that he actually can DI away from the grab, I don't know about it.

If Marth has Fox grabbed with the correct spacing, Fox can't escape the Dair. I'm almost 100% sure of this. I'll test it out later tonight fully with a human opponent.

Oh, can you explain how you were escaping it?

Also, were you testing this offline or online?

 

[takeurlife2]

ask roy, hes the one that tested it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HlUc...ttp://i1.ytimg.com/vi/HlUchSSCyK4/default.jpg

i was the first to vid the 0-death and release it.

 

[BacklashMarth]

Um, you dont have a video of this working on fox?

 

[CY]

ask roy, hes the one that tested it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HlUc...ttp://i1.ytimg.com/vi/HlUchSSCyK4/default.jpg

i was the first to vid the 0-death and release it.

this ***** didn't mainstream ****, nor can he beat my smexy falco anymore.

 

[takeurlife2]

Um, you dont have a video of this working on fox?

0-death doesnt work on fox...

 

[3xSwords]

.....It works. I just tested it.

Fox can not DI out of the first or second f-throw from 0%. DI up, down, away, whatever, Fox still goes the exact trajectory without DI. Also since Fox is a light weight, Marth doesn't have extra post lag like when he throws heavies, thus I came to a conclusion f-throw > dair is legit.

 

[Pierce7d]

From someone that frequently plays a Fox (and my crew member R00kie is making waves in this area) I can reliably say that Fox CANNOT DI out of the first or second fthrow, making Fthrow - Fthrow - Dair - edgehog a 0 to death combo unless you are on a stage which can save you (by teching or by alternative platforms.)

Additionally, for those of you that like to be especially picky, following up the Dair with a Dancing Blade (first slice only) and then a mid-air jump Dair is definitely a 0 to death combo (though this isn't really necessary). On some stages, Dancing Blade Dolphin Slash (this will stage spike unless teched) or Fair (this may even hit Fox UNDER some stages) will also suffice. I don't think it's a combo, but I haven't really tried Fthrow - Fthrow - Dair - Dancing Blade - Double Jump - Footstool - Edgehog (LOL). I'll try to have that in my combo vid when I finally get around to making it.

Of course, I know that has nothing to do with the match-up, everyone was just being hyper picky.

 

[z3r0C0oL]

Didnt know that Marth pwned Fox so bad. I play Fox only and i would say i win around 70% of my matches against Marths, maybe they arent Pro Marths. The only Marth that has ever dominated me has been ToiletHumor, but that one time he choose marth, i choose falco (ive discovered that Falco is a hell of a lot easier to use online do to his floatyness and larger/lingering hitboxes) but then again, he pwns me with whoever he picks.

Id love to play some of you higher skilled Marth players.

Let me know especially if you are in CA of the SoCal area so we can play with as little lag as possible.

I think i should do fairly well and i might convince you that its more like 65-35 instead of 70-30

I am mostly on allisbrawl, so if you are a California Marth, lets dance.

 

[3xSwords]

.....EL come here and flame this dude XP

Sorry man but personal matchup exp should not be used in determining ratios for how well you do. Ok? Just a tip you should remember. And again 70-30 is not ****, it just means Marth has an advantage in more than one area.

Really 60-40 is your character has only one major advantage or a tiny advantage in multiple areas against the said opponent, 70-30 is a solid advantage in one area and is the "uphill battle" for the disadvantaged.

What is this the 4th time I've clarified match up ratios in this thread XD lol.

 

[Emblem Lord]

70/30 is actually pretty ****.

It means that Marth really has no business losing to Fox.

I mean probability wise Fox would win around 30% of the time. But the ratio also represents the gap between both characters in he match-up and that Fox must work much harder to achieve the same results as Marth and he has to do it with inferior tools.

So realistically in a 70/30 match-up Fox would rarely ever win.

 

[VietGeek]

70/30 is actually pretty ****.

It means that Marth really has no business losing to Fox.

I mean probability wise Fox would win around 30% of the time. But the ratio also represents the gap between both characters in he match-up and that Fox must work much harder to achieve the same results as Marth and he has to do it with inferior tools.

So realistically in a 70/30 match-up Fox would rarely ever win.

Indeed. The connotation coming from the ratio also portrays that Fox should NEVER win.

Realistically, Fox has little options to overcome Marth's defense, but considering human proneness to mistakes, we have to take into account that Fox can do a lot if he manages to get into Marth's sword range.

65-35 looks better to the eyes, is a median to somewhat disadvantageous (6:4) or near **** (7:3).

 

[BacklashMarth]

Didnt know that Marth pwned Fox so bad. I play Fox only and i would say i win around 70% of my matches against Marths, maybe they arent Pro Marths. The only Marth that has ever dominated me has been ToiletHumor, but that one time he choose marth, i choose falco (ive discovered that Falco is a hell of a lot easier to use online do to his floatyness and larger/lingering hitboxes) but then again, he pwns me with whoever he picks.

Id love to play some of you higher skilled Marth players.

Let me know especially if you are in CA of the SoCal area so we can play with as little lag as possible.

I think i should do fairly well and i might convince you that its more like 65-35 instead of 70-30

I am mostly on allisbrawl, so if you are a California Marth, lets dance.

Allisbrawl? What is that (hopes this isnt a noob quesstion) Anyway, if u wanna go, i accept ur challenge. Yes im in Socal so we should be fine. PM ur friend code to me and we can........no, "dance"simply isnt manly enuff My marth isnt magnificent so if i beat you 70% of the time, the ratio here stands.

P.S. Yes 70:30 marth is ****.

 

[z3r0C0oL]

Sounds good BackSlash. Im not home right now but when i do get home ill post my code.

There is no doubt that Fox has to work harder at many matches, maybe im just used to this so thats why i didnt realize that the Marth matchup was completely in your favor.

and allisbrawl is a matchmaking site, its like a chatroom in realtime that lets you find matches with people instantly, as opposed to making a post on a forum, and waiting for someone/anyone to respond.

 

[BacklashMarth]

ah, thx for clearing that up

 

[DarkRunner00]

Sounds good BackSlash. Im not home right now but when i do get home ill post my code.

There is no doubt that Fox has to work harder at many matches, maybe im just used to this so thats why i didnt realize that the Marth matchup was completely in your favor.

and allisbrawl is a matchmaking site, its like a chatroom in realtime that lets you find matches with people instantly, as opposed to making a post on a forum, and waiting for someone/anyone to respond.

sorta. here at the smash forums we have a nifty tool called the SWF friend finder... which acts as AIM and so forth.

I've never used allisbrawl as a matchmaking site, cuz eharmony is just... fill in blank. but think of SWF as a forum and Allisbrawl as a facebook for Brawl. (directed to backlash)

its a nifty site actually, you can look up tourneys and post your placements and you'll get badges... and make friends. and meet people. Or just do nothing with your profile and yeah.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

I might make an allisbrawl then. Although I'll probably just go on here and forget about it, but whateva.

 

[z3r0C0oL]

Try it out, its pretty neat. I really dont use it as a social site like a facebook, i mainly just go to the chatroom to find matches.

You will find plenty of good players there, Tapion, Sk92, Recipherous, DSF, Ajax, Ally, Toilethumor, Kazke, etc

Is SWF realtime, or like forum posting?

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

What do you mean by "Real time?" And I just made an account, my name is the same as on here.

 

[z3r0C0oL]

I mean not like a forum, where i would have to refresh, and check back on posts to see if the person responded. Like AIM i guess, but you can see everyones comments at the same time. Like IRC i guess.

And just a heads up, everyone hangs out in the FREEPLAY area of the chat.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

OK thanks for the heads up. And yes, you do have to refresh here I believe.

 

[nonemus]

I think we've beaten this to death.

I vote DK,Pika or Ike next.

 

[3xSwords]

f*** you guys 7:3 isn't **** in my eyes.

Fine watever you guys say. After all these matchup ratios are just how i think of them, so if the group agrees to something else, i concede

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

I agree with 70-30, although I also agree with 3xSwords that that isn't ****. I think of **** as anything higher than 70-30, but I guess it could go either way, and what constitutes **** isn't that important to begin with.

 

[_Kadaj_]

Lol it isn't complete **** but instead marth just has a huge advantage over him

 

[DarkRunner00]

I mean not like a forum, where i would have to refresh, and check back on posts to see if the person responded. Like AIM i guess, but you can see everyones comments at the same time. Like IRC i guess.

And just a heads up, everyone hangs out in the FREEPLAY area of the chat.

no no... we're not talking about the forums... I'm directing you to the friend finder.

Go all the way out to the SWF's front page... Look for BRAWL ONLINE DISCUSSION
under the discription there's a link for the FF! and it's SERIOUSLY better than Allisbrawl matching where it's a chatroom...

its personal AIM and you challenge people and such. Even makes a sound when someone msged you and such.

and... you'll have to switch to http://smashboards.com rather than www.smashboards.com and LOGIN. Iono it's funky iono if they fixed it... but ya.

anyway...

70-30 is ****. 70% chance of the time winning, is not the same as winning 70% of the time.

 

[z3r0C0oL]

Home now if anyone wants to play a few, hit me up on all is Brawl or let me know here on here.

Im ready for the 70% chance of me losing SoCal or Cal preferred.

 

[BacklashMarth]

Thing that makes **** "****" is the lack of consent from the rapee. Since fox players seem to disagree about how badly marth pwns fox, 70-30 does constitute ****.

 

[_Kadaj_]

Yea basically

 

[_X_]

I'd say the match up is about 60-40 in Marth's favor.

Fox's lack of approach is what kill him here (we're working on it, okay!). Marth's sideb can make your job a lot easier as far as spacing goes.

Lazorz should be too much trouble.

Dair > Upsmash will start to combo well at about 100ish% but upsmash should kill earlier.

Shield pressuring can really help Fox's approach as just a little gap in your shield can lead to epic dair> what ever combo and can do some real damage.

 

[_Kadaj_]

His lack of approach and range are what make this match 70-30

 

[Shaya]

X; IF you're coming in with a dair at all, Marth can punish before you even hit his shield... and as the general shield punish is the up b, you're shield will most likely be covering you from above where you're attempting to infiltrate.

It's at least 65-35. There is no way that Fox can even compare to Falco or Wolf in the issues they can give to Marth.