Match-Up Chart (Outdated); please refer to the new chart.

[Kyu Puff]

I think ICs might have a slight advantage with wobbling, but without it the match-up is even or slight disadvantage for ICs. Without any decent grab combos besides the handoff, they're punishment game is pretty mediocre. It's an awkward match-up overall; both characters have a hard time approaching each other safely, racking up damage, and every stock lasts forever.

I don't think ICs have a particularly difficult time with his camping game, as much as they do approaching in general. His f-air is pretty spammable and good against their shield. ICs rely a lot on f-smash to beat Doc's cc game, but it's a high commitment move that he can easily punish with f-air. And a f-air often does separate ICs.

On the other hand, IC's b-air beats all of Doc's approaches and cancels out his pills. If they get inside his space, he's forced upwards which can lead to some u-air combos. It's a boring match-up which should never be played... but I don't think either character has a significant advantage.

 

[x After Dawn x]

hahahaha what

are you an elaborate troll or something? very few people have opinions as consistently misguided as yourself

prove inconsistent? you honestly don't know a single thing about me.

 

[pockyD]

i read your posts here though

and if you re-read what i said, i'm only judging your posts

so i know enough

 

[KirbyKaze]

Did you know roy has a lot of the throw mixups marth has? if you DI in from dthrow he gets a sweetspot fsmash and if you DI in from fthrow he gets one too.

Roy also can edgeguard marth,

While this is true, I would note that Roy's F-smash is extremely DIable and Marth is fairly floaty so if he just DIs the F-smash he can probably make it back to the stage without needing his Up+B for a while. Especially if he's smart with his DI when he's grabbed in relatively close proximity to the edge. Being F-smashed across a big stage or Battlefield isn't going to be fatal to Marth very often. And Yoshis makes the combo fail half the time just because of how silly the level's platforms are.

I would also note that Marth needs none of these throw mixups because he can just combo Roy. And he seems to finish his throws faster too, so his tech chase is easier as well.

his sword is the same length even if his sweetspot is in the middle (which lets him hit with max range for weak hits then use that hit to gain a spacing advantage)

This makes absolutely no sense. Marth is faster and less laggy and benefits from being max-ranged. So because Roy's has slower movement, attack speed, increased lag, equal range and no damage at the tip, he has a spacing advantage?

and his shffl is much faster than marth's.

In Roy vs Marth, Roy SHFFLs are secret code for "trade 4-7% for a free grab or other desired move".

 

[x After Dawn x]

i read your posts here though

and if you re-read what i said, i'm only judging your posts

so i know enough

what have I said wrong?

if you're reading something that I forgot to edit out, or before I edit it, it's usually wrong. like, I was mentioning how fox vs sheik should be a slight advantage for fox, but my 3 hours of sleep somehow made me put sheik.

besides, anybody who actually knows me knows that my opinion is actually usually what most good players agree with. the only thing I can think off my head that I don't is that new stage list, but that doesn't have anything to do with this and there's a LOT more people that disagree with it as well.

but whatever. if you wanna continue this, just pm me or something, cause this isn't really the place to do it. my bad for even continuing it.

and yes, I am a huge troll but I wasn't trolling when I said Falco > Falcon.

 

[TresChikon]

You aren't really wrong, some things you say are in fact true. It's just you're forgetting some important points in MU information that are more critical in deciding how certain MU's should sway.

Just keep reading the context around your posts and you'll see these points.

 

[jugfingers]

falco> pretty much everyone until people master powershielding, especially ganon and falcon.

if a ganon or falcon beat a falco its because they are a better player or played better not because of an inherent character advantage.




also I know people don't really care about the low tiers, but ness ***** bowser, DK, slight advantage vs ganondorf, probably even vs falcon, definitely does better against fox than against marth and shiek, probably even vs the links, luigi. lol......(prepares for dissent)

 

[x After Dawn x]

You aren't really wrong, some things you say are in fact true. It's just you're forgetting some important points in MU information that are more critical in deciding how certain MU's should sway.

Just keep reading the context around your posts and you'll see these points.

it's true, but mostly because I have my head set on later posting my stuff, and then I either forget about posting it later or I forget what I was going to post. *shrug*

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

stuff

i agree with most of it. what i meant when he gets a hit, he doesn't get a combo, but he can move in for better positioning after he gets a hit. Its not a great plus, but its better than nothing.

i believe i said at the end of my post that marth vs roy is advantage marth. Not slight advantage, advantage.

 

[The Good Doctor]

i would agree with sveet here as only advantage, and not large advantage as many people would assume

 

[KirbyKaze]

This largely summarizes how I feel about every low tier argument in existence

I'm just noticing a common misconception among low tier players. They seem to have the idea that they can just outspace high tier player and win, and don't realize that either A) the High tier player might have good spacing or B) that the high tier character might outspace the low tier.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I did an unweighted list and i'm working on the first weighted list, but wanted to post some results because i found them really interesting.

BTW THE CHART I USED HAS A FEW SMALL CHANGES, SUCH AS FOX > (was =) SHEIK, FOX > (was >>) PUFF

unweighted list
fox- 149
marth- 144
sheik- 151
falco- 141
peach- 131
falcon- 134
puff- 137
ICs- 121
Samus- 108
D.Mar- 120
Ganon- 130
Luigi- 105
DK- 111
mario- 110
link- 102
pika- 107
y.link- 94
roy- 69
zelda- 80
g&w- 86
ness- 68
yoshi- 62
bowser- 60
mewtwo- 74
kirby- 58
pichu- 52

in order looks like this:
sheik
fox
marth
falco
puff
falcon
peach
ganon
ICs
D.Mar
DK
Mario
Samus
Pika
Luigi
Link
y.link
G&W
zelda
mewtwo
roy
ness
yoshi
bowser
kirby
pichu


first round of weighing the list, fox jumps back to first over sheik (1840 vs 1825)

 

[t3h Icy]

(sorry Sveet rofl)

Updated:
Doc > Samus to Doc = Samus
Falco >> Ness to Falco >>> Ness
Falco = Sheik to Falco > Sheik
Fox = Sheik to Fox > Sheik
Fox >> Yoshi to Fox >>> Yoshi
ICs > Samus to Samus > ICs

Some Agreement:
Doc > Luigi to Doc = Luigi
Doc >> Y.Link to Doc > Y.Link
Falco >> DK to Falco >>> DK
Falco >>> Roy to Falco >> Roy
Falcon >> Luigi to Falcon > Luigi
Fox >> Jigglypuff to Fox > Jigglypuff
Ganon = DK to Ganon > DK
Ganon > Pikachu to Ganon = Pikachu
ICs >>> Pichu to ICs >> Pichu
ICs >>> Yoshi to ICs >> Yoshi
Peach = Falco to Peach > Falco

I'm also going to do a weighted version shortly. I'm doing it with my own style again and ways of calculating but if we both did it right, we should get the same thing.

 

[`Jammin' Jobus]

I'm under the impression that Peach owns samus.
After playing this matchup a lot against a realllllly good samus.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

gah you killed all my hard work!

anyways, i was doing it for my own research. I posted it cause i thought how far samus and roy fell, and how far up ganon and mewtwo moved was pretty interesting.

 

[t3h Icy]

I should have everything and all of that ready by the end of today at the latest.

 

[_Keno_]

Doesn't peach have a disadvantage rather than a slight disadvantage against fox and marth? ( just because armada is too good doesn't mean marth doesn't **** peach).

 

[ETWIST51294]

I agree with marth being a disadvantage for peach. Not so much with fox but what do I know...

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

its only slight. peach can do many things to both characters.

 

[KirbyKaze]

????

Peach has issues just hitting Fox.

Whether Marth is worse or easier I don't really care but Fox ***** Peach.

 

[john!]

How good do you think Peach is, Sveet? lol

She is a good character but simply not of the same caliber as Fox and Marth.



EDIT: Oh yeah and how are you weighting this? Taking unweighted totals and then weighting based on those?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

peach has issues hitting fox? doesn't like all her moves have more priority than his? he just has speed advantage. i'd call the matchup 60-40 (in numbers AHHHHHHHHHHH) which is only slight advantage on this chart.

 

[KirbyKaze]

If he just runs away and shoots her and she never hits him then her priority doesn't mean jack ****.

 

[Kyu Puff]

i'd call the matchup 60-40 (in numbers AHHHHHHHHHHH) which is only slight advantage on this chart.

If that's true, does anyone think Fox-ICs is more than a slight advantage for Fox?

I'd also like to discuss

ICs = Falco
ICs = Falcon at least
ICs >> DK
ICs >>> Roy

I'm on the fence about Falco, but confident in the latter three. ICs can cc most of Roy's good moves into grab -- a 0-death on him without wobbling -- and the moves they can't cc they can easily punish oos. Aside from that they completely outmaneuver him, have plenty of combos outside grab, and have smashes that kill him at absurdly low percentages due to his terrible recovery. It's generally accepted that ICs, Falco, and Sheik are his worst match-ups, I'm not sure why Peach is a large disadvantage here and ICs aren't.

Yoshi has more tools against ICs than most low tiers. Their smashes and cg are pretty gay to him, but he's really heavy so it's not the end of the world. His aerials lead quickly into moves that can separate Nana and he's not so bad at killing her. His platform and edge games can also be tricky to deal with.

 

[Mind Trick]

About Yoshi MU's:
Most of you probably dont give a **** about it, but it really seems just randomly decided, even going almost linear with less of a disadvantage as the tiers go down.

Fox, Falco, Sheik (NTSC that is) are easily the three hardest tothe point of almost unwinnable, so you can change falco to >>> as well (lasers completely lock you down, if the falco player camps at the right moments).

Marth is in no way >>>, if both players know the MU it's Marth > Yoshi. I've made a pretty big post in the previous topic about it I think but it comes down to this: DJC through his attacks, crouch cancel, using yoshi's body distortion supershield are good ways to cope with his range advantage. Yoshi can survive till very high % if you don't make stupid DJC decisions (ie DJC fair into a fsmash). Yoshi is very capable in edgeguarding marth with instant edgehog, eggs and dtilt/dsmash to get him off easily. Other than that if you land that first upair/upsmash/uptilt/ftilt/egg Yoshi has good tools in keeping marth in the air.(yoshi's disadvantages should be pretty clear to most).

Jiggs should probably be >>, Yoshi's erratic air movement can sneak in upairs and once again trade hits with DJC through fairs. Eggs come in handy (ECE is **** in every MU tbh) when there's a large enough gap between players. Last, Yoshi can't be gimped as easily as other characters at low % (save rest). Also, body distortion of upsmash and the hard to pinpoint range makes it a good tool in handling jiggs.

IC's is no >>> either, dtilt and fair make short work of nana with minimal risk involved. Popo will be on his own most of the time. Either >> or >.

Ganon only has >, as a big target he gets ***** by bairs/ uptilts/ftilts/upairs/ the signature yoshi combo really and supershield to anything/lightshield to camp eggs is a good way to deal with his high powered aerials.

DK is even, they both punish the hell out of eachother. Yoshi has better shieldpressure, projectile, DK has his bair for more range.

G&W is even, G&W once again better range and his parachute rips through Yoshi's DJ, but his shield cant cope with DJC done fast. Dies fast to any smash really by Yoshi.

Bowser is <, big target, gets comboed to hell, shield to fortress campers will just get a neutral b.

Rest seems about ok, not enough exp in (low)mid-tier to say much about those.

 

[_Keno_]

If he just runs away and shoots her and she never hits him then her priority doesn't mean jack ****.

Yep, camping foxes **** peaches something awful.
Marths aren't as bad as foxes, but they still have more than a "slight" advantage on peach.

 

[otg]

That info about Marth v. Yoshi is something I've wanted to hear about for awhile. I remember way back in the day Yoshi mains felt it was in their advantage and I was curious as to why.

 

[Shiri]

About Yoshi MU's:
Most of you probably dont give a **** about it, but it really seems just randomly decided, even going almost linear with less of a disadvantage as the tiers go down.

Fox, Falco, Sheik (NTSC that is) are easily the three hardest tothe point of almost unwinnable, so you can change falco to >>> as well (lasers completely lock you down, if the falco player camps at the right moments).

Marth is in no way >>>, if both players know the MU it's Marth > Yoshi. I've made a pretty big post in the previous topic about it I think but it comes down to this: DJC through his attacks, crouch cancel, using yoshi's body distortion supershield are good ways to cope with his range advantage. Yoshi can survive till very high % if you don't make stupid DJC decisions (ie DJC fair into a fsmash). Yoshi is very capable in edgeguarding marth with instant edgehog, eggs and dtilt/dsmash to get him off easily. Other than that if you land that first upair/upsmash/uptilt/ftilt/egg Yoshi has good tools in keeping marth in the air.(yoshi's disadvantages should be pretty clear to most).

Jiggs should probably be >>, Yoshi's erratic air movement can sneak in upairs and once again trade hits with DJC through fairs. Eggs come in handy (ECE is **** in every MU tbh) when there's a large enough gap between players. Last, Yoshi can't be gimped as easily as other characters at low % (save rest). Also, body distortion of upsmash and the hard to pinpoint range makes it a good tool in handling jiggs.

IC's is no >>> either, dtilt and fair make short work of nana with minimal risk involved. Popo will be on his own most of the time. Either >> or >.

Ganon only has >, as a big target he gets ***** by bairs/ uptilts/ftilts/upairs/ the signature yoshi combo really and supershield to anything/lightshield to camp eggs is a good way to deal with his high powered aerials.

DK is even, they both punish the hell out of eachother. Yoshi has better shieldpressure, projectile, DK has his bair for more range.

G&W is even, G&W once again better range and his parachute rips through Yoshi's DJ, but his shield cant cope with DJC done fast. Dies fast to any smash really by Yoshi.

Bowser is <, big target, gets comboed to hell, shield to fortress campers will just get a neutral b.

Rest seems about ok, not enough exp in (low)mid-tier to say much about those.

I don't know if Falco is that hard. And by that I mean that I disagree.

I can agree on Fox and maybe Sheik, even though Sheik isn't as bad as she used to be.

I agree with you on Marth and DK and Mr. Game and Watch.

Jigglypuff is really weird and the last time I played against her was in '06, so I can't offer much input there. I also agree on slight disadvantage to Ice Climbers just because Yoshi has excellent character mechanics against them, but gets grabbed when he's doing anything else.

I personally think Ganondorf actually loses to a supershielding Yoshi, but nobody will ever really swallow that. I do, however, disagree with the Bowser matchup. That stuff is really tough and the ones who use really smart aggression and don't mindlessly spam shield fortress can be exceptionally dangerous. The being fat and getting comboed part is fine, but Bowser hits back real hard and his forward tilt makes his ground game really threatening. I think if DK had a forward tilt like Bowser does (or like DK does in Brawl), that alone would make his matchup with Yoshi much better. I wanna say Bowser slightly beats Yoshi.

Yoshi has such weird matches.

 

[Mind Trick]

I don't know if Falco is that hard. And by that I mean that I disagree.

It's weird... I think it's very dependant on the style of falco. Some time ago I was playing Amsah's falco (in friendlies though...) I was doing sorta ok, winning some, losing some, but he is unfamiliar with the MU and was playing most likely a bit too aggressive. Now whenever I play Faab (which I have been in pools with for... the last 5 big tournaments or so ) it feels so lopsided, like there is no chance in hell you win it. Tanking as other characters can do with wavedash OoS is out of the question, you can't use your shield at all as then your stuck in it and have to roll or hope they hit your lightshield. I think most agree it's best to stay in midair just above SHL height and in this way pressure falco by coming down on him with the sudden midair momentum shifts. However if the falco knows your range perfectly he can pretty easily camp at the optimal distance and come **** your tail off as you come down with a laser to shine/dair **** (Yoshi's weight doesn't really help in shine combo's...) as Faab does perfectly really. Of course there's platforms that can help you but falco has a pretty ****ing good platform game as well...

I can agree on Fox and maybe Sheik, even though Sheik isn't as bad as she used to be.

I have no experience with NTSC sheik so basing it mostly on what I heard (that is grab leads to z2d). In PAL I consider Sheik >> or >.

I personally think Ganondorf actually loses to a supershielding Yoshi, but nobody will ever really swallow that. I do, however, disagree with the Bowser matchup. That stuff is really tough and the ones who use really smart aggression and don't mindlessly spam shield fortress can be exceptionally dangerous. The being fat and getting comboed part is fine, but Bowser hits back real hard and his forward tilt makes his ground game really threatening. I think if DK had a forward tilt like Bowser does (or like DK does in Brawl), that alone would make his matchup with Yoshi much better. I wanna say Bowser slightly beats Yoshi.

Can't you kind of consider Bowser as a slower, bigger, weaker version of ganon? Eggs are harder to come around with as well as Bowser. It's not that hard to keep landing those neutral b's as bowser's shield is really essential to him.

Yoshi has such weird matches.

So true.

 

[Shiri]

It's weird... I think it's very dependant on the style of falco. Some time ago I was playing Amsah's falco (in friendlies though...) I was doing sorta ok, winning some, losing some, but he is unfamiliar with the MU and was playing most likely a bit too aggressive. Now whenever I play Faab (which I have been in pools with for... the last 5 big tournaments or so ) it feels so lopsided, like there is no chance in hell you win it. Tanking as other characters can do with wavedash OoS is out of the question, you can't use your shield at all as then your stuck in it and have to roll or hope they hit your lightshield. I think most agree it's best to stay in midair just above SHL height and in this way pressure falco by coming down on him with the sudden midair momentum shifts. However if the falco knows your range perfectly he can pretty easily camp at the optimal distance and come **** your tail off as you come down with a laser to shine/dair **** (Yoshi's weight doesn't really help in shine combo's...) as Faab does perfectly really. Of course there's platforms that can help you but falco has a pretty ****ing good platform game as well...

I have no experience with NTSC sheik so basing it mostly on what I heard (that is grab leads to z2d). In PAL I consider Sheik >> or >.

Can't you kind of consider Bowser as a slower, bigger, weaker version of ganon? Eggs are harder to come around with as well as Bowser. It's not that hard to keep landing those neutral b's as bowser's shield is really essential to him.

So true.

Don't get me wrong; Falco is hard. I just think some good stage picks help.

Also, you mentioned that other character can tank with wavedash OoS, but don't forget that we have a really REALLY easy (like, almost unfair easy) powershield wavedash (which I feel should be a staple for this matchup) and even DJC wavedashes, which you can use as a last resort to slide through lasers. I think Falcos that rely on shine to combo are a bit easier as you can get some wicked DI off of shine that makes them work harder to combo; A button Falcos are the hardest because his boots are broken.

Sheik grabs used to lead to death, but then we found some percentages (three specific percentages between 0 and 63%) where you can break out in like summer 06, but then we also found in early 07 that she some crazy reverse upside down pivot grab bullsh*t that nullifies that data some of the time (?), so yeah, it's up in the air as far as how deadly grabs really are, but just on the basic merits of both characters, she wins pretty well even though her getting hit leads to very bad things.

I guess the biggest difference between Bowser and Ganondorf I find is that Bowser plays best grounded and has a very solid yet basic ground game. Ganondorf's ground game is very quick and tricky, but it is mostly supplemented by short hop aerials and gimmicks from jumps. Bowser just has what he has and I think it works for him in this matchup. I think that pound for pound, Ganondorf does hit harder, but I think his speed is mostly aerial aside from jab. Supershield is so good against Ganondorf simply because there's no real hidden dimension to his short hop game even though it is fairly good; I dunno, I mean...I don't play against those two characters the same way, so it kinda inherently skews my opinion on the matchup. I'm not saying my version is gospel, but I've played against good players of both characters (for the times in which I played against them) and I also play all three as tournament characters; in my head, it just seems like Bowser is better against Yoshi than Ganondorf.

 

[t3h Icy]

In the original post, I did match-up totals, weighted match-up totals and re-ordered the chart.

This chart is in the order of weighted ranks. To get these values, I added up the totals for all the match-ups, and then factored in weight. For example, if character A has 100 as a total for match-ups, and character B has an advantage (6) against them, then that would count for 600. I add up all those numbers and that gives the weighted value. You can also see that similar colours are grouped together, supporting the formula I used. The list of these values are in the data tables below the chart.

Also for a full update, here's the full list of what I have typed so far.

Agreement:
DK >> Yoshi to DK = Yoshi

Some Agreement:
Doc > Luigi to Doc = Luigi
Doc >> Y.Link to Doc > Y.Link
Falco >> DK to Falco >>> DK
Falco >>> Roy to Falco >> Roy
Falco >> Yoshi to Falco >>> Yoshi
Falcon > ICs to Falcon = ICs
Falcon >> Luigi to Falcon > Luigi
Fox >> Jigglypuff to Fox > Jigglypuff
Fox > Peach to Fox >> Peach
Ganon = DK to Ganon > DK
Ganon > Pikachu to Ganon = Pikachu
G&W > Yoshi to G&W = Yoshi
ICs >>> Pichu to ICs >> Pichu
ICs >>> Yoshi to ICs >> Yoshi
Marth >>> Yoshi to Marth > Yoshi
Peach = Falco to Peach > Falco

Debating:
Doc >> Bowser to Doc > Bowser
Doc = DK to Doc > DK
Doc >> G&W to Doc = G&W
Doc >> Kirby to Doc >>> Kirby
Doc > Mario to Doc = Mario
Doc >> Ness to Doc = Ness
Doc >> Pikachu to Doc = Pikachu
Doc >> Roy to Doc >>> Roy
Doc >> Zelda to Doc = Zelda
Falco > Falcon to Falco >> Falcon
Falco > Ganon to Falco >> Ganon
Falco >> G&W to Falco >>> G&W
Falco > ICs to Falco = ICs
Falco >> Mewtwo to Falco >>> Mewtwo
Falco > Pikachu to Falco >> Pikachu
Falcon >> Bowser to Falcon >>> Bowser
Falcon >> Mewtwo to Falcon >>> Mewtwo
Falcon >> Ness to Falcon >>> Ness
Falcon > Peach to Falcon = Peach
Falcon >> Pichu to Falcon >>> Pichu
Falcon >> Roy to Falcon >>> Roy
Falcon >> Y.Link to Falcon >>> Y.Link
Falcon >> Yoshi to Falcon >>> Yoshi
Falcon >> Zelda to Falcon >>> Zelda
Fox > Doc to Fox >> Doc
Fox > Ganon to Fox >> Ganon
Fox >> ICs to Fox > ICs
Fox > Mario to Fox >> Mario
Ganon > Doc to Ganon = Doc
Ganon > ICs to Ganon = ICs
Ganon >> Yoshi to Ganon > Yoshi
G&W > Pichu to G&W >> Pichu
ICs > DK to ICs >> DK
ICs >> Mario to ICs = Mario
ICs >> Ness to ICs > Ness
ICs >> Pikachu to ICs > Pikachu
ICs >> Roy to ICs >>> Roy
ICs >>> Yoshi to ICs >> Yoshi
Jigglypuff > Doc to Doc > Jigglypuff
Jigglypuff > Falcon to Jigglypuff = Falcon
Jigglypuff = Sheik to Jigglypuff > Sheik
Jigglypuff > Mario to Jigglypuff >> Mario
Jigglypuff >> Ness to Jigglypuff >>> Ness
Jigglypuff >>> Yoshi ot Jigglypuff >> Yoshi
Kirby > Bowser to Kirby = Bowser
Kirby > Pichu to Kirby = Pichu
Mario = Link to Mario > Link
Mario >> Pichu to Mario >>> Pichu
Mario >> Yoshi to Mario >>> Yoshi
Marth >> G&W to Marth >>> G&W
Marth = Ganon to Marth > Ganon
Marth >> ICs to Marth > ICs
Marth >> Ness to Marth >>> Ness
Marth > Peach to Marth >> Peach
Marth >> Samus to Marth > Samus
Peach >> G&W to Peach >>> G&W
Pikachu > Link to Pikachu = Link
Pikachu >> Pichu to Pikachu >>> Pichu
Pikachu >> Y.Link to Pikachu > Y.Link
Pikachu >> Yoshi to Pikachu = Yoshi
Roy > Kirby to Roy = Kirby
Roy = Yoshi to Roy > Yoshi
Samus = Pikachu to Samus > Pikachu
Samus >> Yoshi to Samus >>> Yoshi
Sheik = ICs to Sheik > ICs
Sheik > Marth to Sheik >> Marth
Sheik >> Mewtwo to Sheik >>> Mewtwo
Y.Link > Zelda to Y.Link >> Zelda
Yoshi > Kirby to Yoshi = Kirby

 

[otg]

Doc v. Bowser is probably still >>, I don't see why that would be changed.
Doc v. Ness and Doc v. Pikachu are both >> still... I already gave justification for a few pages back, so I dont think those should be changed either.

I also feel that Doc v. Fox/Falco are not both >>. Maybe Falco, but even he I would argue is just >. His combo game on them (regardless of throws/cgs) is very good, he has equal/better priority overall than Fox and is fast enough that Fox can't just laser camp him to death like he can Peach. Add in CG's (which do happen, don't gimme that hypothetical nonsense that they don't, if PC gets grabbed, all of you get grabbed) and stupid edgeguards it's not like Fox/Falco just run train on him. Falco def does give him a harder time because his combo game actually exists on Doc (mostly due to utilt) and his priority is pretty beast, so Doc has to work much harder. On the plus side tho, Falco dies at much lower % due to his worse recovery and fsmash KO's at low *** %'s.

I could see Falco potentially being a >>, but I personally don't think it is. I've had great succes vs. falcos in tourney... even more so then Fox's even (which is hilarious because I think Fox is an easier matchup).

IMO:

Doc < Fox or Doc = Fox
Doc < Falco or Doc << Falco (leaning towards <)

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

i agree ganon > dk

i believe that falco > ICs, but i don't main either character.

i would say marth > peach is correct. I have a lot of experience in the match-up, peach can do a lot of things back to marth. If marth gives her too much space, she gets a free turnip. turnips are her power in the match-up, if she gets one she has an advantage. Marth can shut down the turnip, but for the most part if peach has a turnip the worst she will do is go even with marth in the encounter and probably be free to run away and grab another one.

marth > samus i agree with too. both are spacing type characters, and samus does spacing very very well and only loses because of the disjointed hitbox.

i disagree with sheik > ICs.

i could go either way on sheik >> marth.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Sheik ***** Marth.

I'm not sure about Doc vs Fox. It doesn't seem bad on paper but in practice his speed, overall mobility, Shine, and priority (it's only in a few moves, but it's there) makes it difficult for a character like Doc to get in. And Doc depends on getting in. Then again, I've only done it from Fox's side, so maybe my opponent just wasn't using his tools properly?

I don't find he really combos Fox except with U-tilt and throw. I don't think either character really combos the other.

 

[ETWIST51294]

i disagree with sheik > ICs.

I second that. It's in ICs favor or even.

 

[x After Dawn x]

Doc < Fox or Doc = Fox
Doc < Falco or Doc << Falco (leaning towards <)

I personally don't know that matchup very well at all, but are you saying that, if you believe that Doc << Falco, that Doc has as hard of a time against Falco as Mewtwo or some of the lower tiers do against Falco?

 

[t3h Icy]

Doc v. Bowser is probably still >>, I don't see why that would be changed.
Doc v. Ness and Doc v. Pikachu are both >> still... I already gave justification for a few pages back, so I dont think those should be changed either.

I took a lot from the Dogy post you linked, and balanced out your opinion and his. "Debating" is basically one person says something that differs from the chart, but is very unlikely to have an influence unless other people agree. No worries. =)

My opinions:

Sheik > Marth
Sheik = ICs
Jigglypuff = Falcon

 

[otg]

I personally don't know that matchup very well at all, but are you saying that, if you believe that Doc << Falco, that Doc has as hard of a time against Falco as Mewtwo or some of the lower tiers do against Falco?

If Falco vs Mewtwo is >> then hell no, the matchup is flat out Falco > Doc. I'm surprised that falco v mewtwo is only >> tbh.

 

[x After Dawn x]

If Falco vs Mewtwo is >> then hell no, the matchup is flat out Falco > Doc. I'm surprised that falco v mewtwo is only >> tbh.

I agree. I can't remember the last time a Mewtwo beat a good top tier character main in tourney (and who wasn't Taj). Iori might have a win or two, but I haven't heard of anything...and I do know Vectorman got last place at Pat's House, which only supports my argument.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I think Mewtwo vs Falco should be considered >>> for Falco favour, in fact I think Falco vs most characters should be >>> for Falco but then we get arguments like

Mewtwo isn't comboed hard by Falco
Mewtwo isn't edgeguarded very effectively by Falco
Mewtwo can teleport through lasers
Mewtwo can teleport through pseudo-combos
Mewtwo can powershield --> grab and effectively get something because his grab range is long
Mewtwo's aerial mobility is conducive for working through lasers
Mewtwo's wavedash is conducive work working through lasers

Mewtwo edgeguards Falco
Mewtwo has CG quality throw combos on FD and okay follows on other levels

And Falco, in the matchup, completely loses his ability to think because they're getting these openings from "Mindgames" and "poor spacing" so the matchups really not that bad when you think about it.