Match-Up Chart (Outdated); please refer to the new chart.

[Fortress | Sveet]

For real, stop bringing up numbers in this topic

If you want to post your opinion on a match-up leave numbers out. Give pros and cons for both characters and their strategies, then leave a conclusion saying something like "X vs Y gives slight advantage to Y because of ______________________"

as many many people have said, numbers are arbitrary and useless.

 

[pockyD]

because colors are just as dumb if not dumber.

they are dumb but not misleading

having colors and a legend is annoying to use, but at least everything in the chart can be taken at face value

what is a 75-25 matchup? i guarantee that if responses were private, i would get at least 5 different interpretations. on the other hand, we all have a fairly decent understanding of what 'slight advantage' means

what would i want? i like numbers, but with a system. trading in the 7 colors for a 1-7 scale with a legend explaining what each number means is just fine

though i mean what i REALLY want is for people to stop doing charts since they are never going to be "good enough", yet low-level players will interpret them as their bible

 

[otg]

Yeah honestly Doc v. Pika is not a fair matchup, I think it's pretty horrible for pika. Doc >> Pika sounds pretty accurate. I also have to push for Doc v. Ness to be atleast Doc > Ness if not Doc >> Ness. The only reason I could see it being argued as even is Ness's fsmash having solid range to combat Doc's groundgame.. but even then Doc is superior in terms of aerial mobility, speed, camping, grab game, CC game, etc. Plus Ness might have a legitimately worse recovery than Doc, I just don't see him getting back to the stage ever if at all.

TL;DR:

Ness sucks.

And if wobbling is banned then Doc > Icies.

 

[Nintendude]

I agree that if Wobbling is banned then Doc > ICs.

 

[x After Dawn x]

As I said before, we should probably assume that wobbling is banned considering most tourneys have it banned at this point.

Btw, does Sheik really beat Peach harder than Marth?

 

[t3h Icy]

no way in H*** is pichu 0<100 fox and falco (their favor). sorry man but just no way. it's not just because pichu can grab **** them pretty good and edge gaurd too. It's the fact pichu isn't slow, has grab set ups, hard to edgegaurd, and he isn't camped all that bad.

Pichu can do more than nair and edge gaurd he has really good movement I would say at least the 5th best in the game. This makes pichu even harder to hit. He can run up and SHFFL upair or autocancel and that sets up more upairs grabs or what ever you want and most of the time they double jump praying to get out and they end up at the mercy of pichu till he chooses to stike. marth, ice climbers, gannondorf and sheik are the only ones that should be called 0-100. Other than that you have no clue what your talking about.

If you read what I said in the original post, you'll notice that Red/Purple doesn't imply 0-100. Also I have no idea what I'm talking about regarding Pichu, that's why I gathered it (and everything else too) from other charts, which I also stated in the original post.

Why was Falco > Pikachu changed to Falco >> Pikachu

It wasn't, it's just been agreed somewhat so far, but isn't changed until there's enough opinions agreeing with it.

because colors are just as dumb if not dumber.

I already offered to change the entire chart specifically for you, but you're just sulking. If there are colours you can't see, tell me what they are and I'll change it.

Would everyone here prefer to have the actual >>>, >>, >, =, <, <<, <<< symbols instead of the coloured circles?

 

[Nintendude]

I got accustomed to the circles from the SSB64 chart and think they are fine. I think it's easier on the eyes than text.

 

[x After Dawn x]

Yeah colors are fine and simple to read. If you're colorblind, gg.

 

[pockyD]

phanna's old chart had colors with numbers in them

just sayin'

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

sorry I was thinking huge or large meant uber **** like sheik vs pichu the worse match-up ever.

 

[ru5514n]

I honestly feel better about looking at numbers than at colors.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

Howabout colorful numbers. blue is great not my favorite but yeah.

 

[x After Dawn x]

Colors are fine, stop whining.

Also, something I said to support Falco > Falcon:

"when you compare falco's matchup against fox with falcon and marth
he's much closer to marth
and that's even
falcon is kinda like
he can catch up REALLY quickly to falco with one swift combo, but otherwise, falco is pretty much always ******, but the match ends closely
vs marth, it's usually one person has the control and the other gets *****, or vice versa
and that's what the matchup against fox is like
somebody is doing hella well or getting *****"

any falco player will understand what I'm saying out of that. the previous matchup chart was built on that same idea; one combo into a knee and falco's stock is gone.

oops, I mistyped something and it didn't make sense at all, refresh and read the edit if you didn't understand what I was saying. >_>

 

[KirbyKaze]

Colors are fine.

 

[Archangel]

phanna's old chart had colors with numbers in them

just sayin'

Do you have cards in your pocket specifically for win posts?

 

[Mogwai]

Some Agreement:
Peach = Falco to Peach > Falco

Debating:
Falco > Falcon to Falco >> Falcon
Falco >> G&W to Falco >>> G&W
Falco >> Mewtwo to Falco >>> Mewtwo
Falco >> Yoshi to Falco >>> Yoshi

ok, so Peach vs. Falco seems worse than it is because Falco beats up on everyone. The fact of the matter is that Peach is slow and Falco is good at slowing her down even more by severely limiting her float game. Falco's fast enough to leverage this into a massive advantage in the neutral position, so while he does get *** ****ed when she gets in on him, he's always in control. I think the end result of this dynamic is that a good Falco with a grasp of the matchup should be evenly matched with most peaches.

Falco crams lasers and priority down Falcon's throat and also has super ridiculous auto-combos on him. While Falcon can take momentum back with single hits leading in death combos, his entire combo game vs. Falco is a guessing game due to the fast falling speed leading to tech chases. So long as Falco isn't predictable and overly aggressive, he dominates the matchup.

Game and Watch doesn't have a shield LOL. Seriously though, he pretty much can't do jack unless Falco wants to super telegraph a dair into his utilt. Other than that, he gets grounded by lasers and has nair crammed down his throat whether he chooses to shield or not.

I guess I can live with Falco >> Mewtwo, comboing into a kill can be difficult and Falco doesn't really take extra advantage of the fact that Mewtwo's body box is retardedly massive the same way Marth and Falcon do. I still think it's pretty **** for Falco, but I could live with an advantage over a heavy advantage or w/e.

My only serious experience vs. Yoshi has been ****** them, so I dunno, it just doesn't seem like Yoshi can do anything. Having no OoS options seems awful against Falco and Yoshi's approaches all seem to get foiled by utilt. All the Yoshis I've played were worse than me or the player's secondary (Pakman), so it could just be a player skill thing, but I'd like to hear what Yoshi does to not get completely blown out before I'm convinced about it being better than Falco >>> Yoshi.

 

[EPsilon933]

Would everyone here prefer to have the actual >>>, >>, >, =, <, <<, <<< symbols instead of the coloured circles?

Would those symbols fit in the colored circles?

 

[N64]

Why was Falco > Pikachu changed to Falco >> Pikachu? I just wanna know considering I play a good Pikachu player all the time and Pikachu really doesn't feel like it gets ***** that hard.

In my experience, Pikachu does just as well against Falco as he does against Fox, and that is to say not extremely well. Fox/Falco >> Pika seems appropriate.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

I have an idea that will soon be foregotten. And it's a great idea at that. That 13 people match them up with who ever. like sheik and peach or pikachu with samus. post a thread in both boards stating peach vs ______(this time will be sheik) sheiks and peachs who play as both can come together and argee on something so you could eaily get 13+ match-ups done a week that everyone who plays can argee on and this thread could be used to bring up hey should this be changed now that _____ has a new way of dealing with _____.

But that will also drag out some people who don't post a lot that know a lot. Maybe make some boards more organized. It's a good because it's people who really know their charcter talking.

 

[N64]

The problem ICG is that for many of the matchups there is literally an incredibly small amount of experience in. For instance, Pikachu vs. Yoshi, or Ganon vs. Kirby. There are a very small number of decent low tier players, and most of these will even bring out their high tiers when money is on the line because low tiers are terrible chars. If you put say "Samus vs. G&W" in each board, you'd probably get some response from the G&W board and almost none from the Samus boards, because that matchup is played so infrequently.

 

[t3h Icy]

We'll figure it out eventually.

 

[Nintendude]

At least for matchups that are never played it's definitely way easier to estimate it with this category method than with numbers.

 

[N64]

Ok, I know there's a lot up for debate atm, but i'll chip in my pikachu experience for what it's worth. Most of the explanations will be short atm, but I can go into further detail if needed. Also all of this is pretty biased from my own experience, so yeah.

Pika < Samus from Pika = Samus
Samus's CC game hurts pika, as she can CC most of what you do and dsmash/fsmash you. The rest of samus's game makes her about even v pika,, but this tips it far enough in her favor for a <.

Pika = Ganon from Pika < Ganon
Similar to Pika v. Falcon, except trading speed for power. Once pika hits Ganon, he ***** Ganon across the stage. As with most chars vs. Ganon though, Pika can only get hit 3 times before the next one kills. Pika's speed and Ganon's weight just make him huge combo bait, and the match depends mostly on whether or not the pikachu can keep control, which honestly isn't thaaat difficult. I think it's Pika's best matchup above him in the tierlist.

Pika = Link from Pika > Link
Link is kinda slow which is nice, but otherwise he has the reach and priority needed to shut down many of pika's approach options. Pika has a moderately hard time getting in, and Link's nair ends much of what pika can do once he does get in.

 

[Shiri]

Yoshi v. Fox and Yoshi v. Samus are pretty unwinnable, I'd make those black if I could.

How Yoshi is supposed to do better against Fox than Marth is really weird, but I don't know how many people know those particular matchups to give enough accurate input.

I'll make you a deal; I'll trade you my orange Fox and Samus matchups to make them red if you make the DK and Pikachu matchups green and then make the Mario and Zelda matchups red. I would like that. :D

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

Well it was an idea and really pikachu vs yoshi would be simpler because there are less factors than a match like fox vs falco. Don't know just an idea to be most percise and get boards active at the same time.

 

[Pakman]

teh icy: I can dig up some posts where even pakman said that falcon only has a slight advantage over luigi. some people even think luigi is even with falcon.

I have since changed my opinion.

Falcon is AT WORST 60-40 with Luigi.

 

[-ACE-]

Pika = Ganon from Pika < Ganon
Similar to Pika v. Falcon, except trading speed for power. Once pika hits Ganon, he ***** Ganon across the stage. As with most chars vs. Ganon though, Pika can only get hit 3 times before the next one kills. Pika's speed and Ganon's weight just make him huge combo bait, and the match depends mostly on whether or not the pikachu can keep control, which honestly isn't thaaat difficult. I think it's Pika's best matchup above him in the tierlist.

Ganon can also chaingrab pikachu and has great options overall from dthrow. The matchup is definitely in Ganon's favor.

 

[t3h Icy]

I'm starting to think of changing a bunch to decrease the amount of waiting match-ups, and just redo ones that people think shouldn't have been changed. Or perhaps giving this some more time. I figured that there would be a flood of debate, but that hasn't quite kicked in yet.

 

[Stratford]

Haha Fox and Sheik have no unfavorable matchups.

 

[N64]

Ganon can also chaingrab pikachu and has great options overall from dthrow. The matchup is definitely in Ganon's favor.

Everyone can chaingrab pikachu. How is Ganon supposed to grab pika anyways? His ground movement is slow outside of wavelands (which are predictable) and none of his moves have small enough knockback to lead into grab. The only real way Ganon grabs pika is by dairing him, and then techchasing, and pika's uair pretty much always at least trades with Ganon's dair, even if you're a little low realizing he's going to dair.

 

[Mogwai]

I have since changed my opinion.

Falcon is AT WORST 60-40 with Luigi.

yea, as Falcon gets better (read: faster at SH uairing, edgeguarding and DDing), that matchup seems to get bad for Luigi.

 

[ETWIST51294]

Haha Fox and Sheik have no unfavorable matchups.

Which is weird since sheiks always say that fox and falco are bad match ups.

 

[x After Dawn x]

In my experience, Pikachu does just as well against Falco as he does against Fox, and that is to say not extremely well. Fox/Falco >> Pika seems appropriate.

Yeah, but it definitely does not get ***** nearly as hard as Mewtwo does. =/

Edit: Please switch Fox vs Sheik to a slight advantage for Fox. I don't know why it's set like that...that was some executive decision unknown or KK made in the other matchup chart.

 

[Mogwai]

Edit: Please switch Fox vs Sheik to a slight advantage for Sheik. I don't know why it's set like that...that was some executive decision unknown or KK made in the other matchup chart.

o.O

gt fo

 

[x After Dawn x]

LOL my bad I meant Fox.

Goddammit.

 

[N64]

Yeah, but it definitely does not get ***** nearly as hard as Mewtwo does. =/

Yeah, honestly, I can see Fox/Falco > Pika as well. He tends to do better in those two matchups than he does vs. sheik/ics/marth/mario/doc. As long as it's shown pika does about equally well against both spacies, then i'm satisfied.

 

[x After Dawn x]

I agree.

Also, how close do you think Pikachu vs Young Link is?

 

[Pi]

The whole chart idea is pretty arbitrary if there isn't detailed reasons recorded for WHY certain characters have trouble/advantages vs. others.

But there's really no point in arguing any which way seeing as how nobody is in the wrong by making this thread, if you don't like the way it is, pay it no attention. If it irks you to hear people reference the chart about matches, grow up.

 

[-ACE-]

Everyone can chaingrab pikachu. How is Ganon supposed to grab pika anyways? His ground movement is slow outside of wavelands (which are predictable) and none of his moves have small enough knockback to lead into grab. The only real way Ganon grabs pika is by dairing him, and then techchasing, and pika's uair pretty much always at least trades with Ganon's dair, even if you're a little low realizing he's going to dair.

When Ganon attempts to sh dair a grounded pikachu so he can get a grab, how exactly is he susceptible to pika's uair? Jab never leads to a grab?

Linguini beat Axe at genesis and chaingrabbing helped him quite a bit. You can't act as if grabs never happen at very high levels of play.

 

[The Star King]

Wow, why does Melee have slight advantages/disadvantages when Smash64 does not? That's what I always wished the 64 chart had, so we can say things like Pika having a slight advantage over Falcon.