Match-Up Chart (Outdated); please refer to the new chart.

[unknown522]

alright, so matchup input:

This is for the name on the left

fox v shiek - slight advantage
fox v peach - advantage
fox v falco - slight disadvantage
fox v doc - advantage
fox v mario - advantage
fox v yoshi - large advantage

marth v shiek - disadvantage
marth v peach - advantage
marth v ganon - slight advantage
marth v ness - large advantage
marth v roy - large advantage

sheik v falco - slight disadvantage
sheik v jiggs - slight disadvantage
sheik v M2 - large advantage

falco v peach - slight disadvantage
falco v falcon - advantage
falco v pikachu - advantage
falco v ness - large advantage
falco v yoshi - large advantage

peach v ICs - large advantage

Falcon v YLink - large advantage
Falcon v Roy - large advantage
Falcon v zelda - large advantage
Falcon v G&W - large advantage
Falcon v Ness - large advantage
Falcon v Yoshi - large advantage
Falcon v Bowser - large advantage
Falcon v M2 - large advantage
Falcon v Pichu - large advantage
Falcon v Kirby - large advantage

jiggs v mario - advantage
jiggs v ness - large advantage

ICs v samus - large disadvantage
ICs v doc - advantage

Samus v doc - even

Doc v luigi - even
Doc v Dk - slight advantage
Doc v mario - even
DOc v yoshi - large advantage

Ganon v roy - large advantage
Ganon v yoshi - large advantage
Ganon v bowser - large advantage

Luigi v pichu - large advantage

DK v mario - slight disadvantage
DK v roy - large advantage

Mario v link - slight advantage
Mario v yoshi - large advantage
Mario v pichu - large advantage

pikachu v YLink - slight advantage
pikachu v pichu - large advantage

YL v zelda - advantage

Roy v Yoshi - slight disadvantage
Roy v kirby - even

G&W v pichu - advantage

YOshi v kirby - even

Bowser v kirby - even

kirby v pichu - even

 

[Nintendude]

ICs vs. Samus is definitely a slight disadvantage for ICs at worst. ICs just have to dodge a lot of missiles and when there's an opening they are fast enough to capitalize on it. Uair beats anything Samus has if they are below her, grab to charged up-smash combo (you can get more charge since she's really heavy) kills her way faster than most characters can. Just in general, they can kill her much easier than most characters and also desynch ice blocks ruin the grapple recovery.

 

[-ACE-]

Thank you, unknown. I don't care if Kage never loses to Marth, the Ganon/Marth matchup is slightly in Marth's favor.

 

[ETWIST51294]

I agree with most of what unknown wrote. The only one I don't really agree with is fox vs peach being a advantage. I just can't see it.

 

[Vulcan55]

I'll give you a hint.
It starts with "P"
And ends with "ewpew"

 

[Divinokage]

Thank you, unknown. I don't care if Kage never loses to Marth, the Ganon/Marth matchup is slightly in Marth's favor.

You don't care? Well.. I care! It's even!

 

[-ACE-]

You don't care? Well.. I care! It's even!

Lol. Give yourself some credit. The matchup is slightly in Marth's favor. Not many marths are actually great against Ganon imo. I think PKM is one of the best (as you already know) but I think you're just a little better than him overall and that's why you beat him.

 

[t3h Icy]

Agreement:
Doc > Samus to Doc = Samus
Falco >> Ness to Falco >>> Ness
Falco = Sheik to Falco > Sheik
Fox = Sheik to Fox > Sheik
Fox >> Yoshi to Fox >>> Yoshi


Some Agreement:
Doc > Luigi to Doc = Luigi
Doc >> Y.Link to Doc > Y.Link
Falco > Falcon to Falco >> Falcon
Falco > Ganon to Falco >> Ganon
Falco >> DK to Falco >>> DK
Falco >>> Roy to Falco >> Roy
Falcon >> Luigi to Falcon > Luigi
Ganon = DK to Ganon > DK
ICs >>> Pichu to ICs >> Pichu
Peach = Falco to Peach > Falco

I'm not going to paste all the Match-Ups I'm keeping track of, but I have them all written down so no worries. I think I'll update the chart when we get about 10 or so Match-Ups within agreement. Thanks Unknown. =)

 

[N64]

Ganon jab shouldn't ever lead to grab on pika, no. It could happen from a CC->nothing from pika I suppose, but I wouldn't put that as reliable at all. And If ganon is shdairing a grounded pika, pika's going to bounce up, not have to tech. Ganon can get a grab from that at like 0? maybe? Grabs happen, but I don't see ganon getting more than 1-2 a match on pika, and that's being generous.

As far as axe vs linguini, I haven't seen the match, but yeah I can see that happening. I've spoken to Chad on the issue, and we've each played our share of notable ganons and believe it's pretty even. That's where i'm coming from.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

unknown, roy vs marth is only slight disadvantage/disadvantage. Roy isn't THAT bad of a character. If you dont know how roy plays, you might think otherwise, but its definitely not a large disadvantage (as far as this chart is concerned)


I would like people to stop exaggerating matchups.

Large advantage basically means there is no chance for the lower character to win, like say marth vs pichu. The majority of mid/low tier vs high/mid will be slight or standard.

 

[john!]

Oh hey, new topic.

Did you base this off worldjem's chart? Why did you make a new one anyway? The old one was fine.

Why not just color the whole square instead of putting colored circles?

Might contribute to matchups later.

 

[-ACE-]

If pika doesn't DI the jab at very low% Ganon can follow up with a jc grab no problem. Not many people DI a Ganon jab correctly every time. I never said it was reliable, but it doesn't really have to be when all you need is one grab (we have to assume that Ganon will never make a mistake chaingrabbing, just as you are assuming that pikachu will never make a mistake and is therefore ungrabbable-although one is much more understandable than the other :>).

Dair to grab is legit on pika up until 13-15%. I was only questioning your reasoning behind pika's uair preventing Ganon's dair from creating a grab setup at such a percent (because it doesn't lol).

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

More on Unknown's list:

ICs vs Peach and Samus is not "large advantage", only "advantage"
ICs vs Doc was even or in doc's favor iirc......

 

[x After Dawn x]

I would like people to stop exaggerating matchups.

Large advantage basically means there is no chance for the lower character to win, like say marth vs pichu. The majority of mid/low tier vs high/mid will be slight or standard.

dammit sveet, your posts are getting too good. I was just about to mention that.

 

[otg]

More on Unknown's list:

ICs vs Doc was even or in doc's favor iirc......

Doc v. Icies is Doc's favor. The Doc boards and the ic boards agree with this, but unknown disagrees... any reason why?

 

[Shiri]

I don't think N64 is assuming that Ganondorf's difficulty grabbing comes from perfect play.

And to be honest, I don't think anybody has to assume anything about perfect play in this regard. That seems a little disingenuous to me.

What he may actually be stating is that grabs, considering their difficulty to get against the character just on its basic merits (nominal ground speed, small body size, etc.) are not likely to occur terribly often due to both situational circumstances during play (stage hazards or terrain, for example) and availability of perhaps more advantageous options (high powered high knockback reset moves, maybe) compared to the risk of attempting grabs (again, depending on the situation) for Ganondorf. I guess what he may be trying to get across is, "You could go for the grab and you might get the grab and you might start chaingrabbing and you might chaingrab to whatever and you might KO out of it, but it won't happen all the time, it can't happen most of the time, and it shouldn't happen very often."

If that makes sense.

 

[N64]

I think I came off as too aggressive re-reading, my apologies.

Ganon does have legitimate leads into grabs. Uair does not beat shdair, you are correct, and originally I wasn't really considering it. Full hopped dairs/falling dairs/etc. leave pika plenty of time to hit with about anything, and in those cases the grab will prob not come from pika bouncing up but rather from him being forced to tech, and since pikachu has an awful techroll even ganon can techchase him with the right read.

Personal bias here, but I've never had issues with Ganon's grabbing me. Pika is so incredibly mobile and Ganon's moves have such knockback that the only ways he will get a grab are very likely from the ones we've gone over. He can get grabs otherwise, yes, and they'd be from pika making decent errors which can happen in matches. They just don't happen much.

Ganon's punish game on pika is formiddable. Grabs do hurt if he gets them, and otherwise he hurts because his aerials just hit so **** hard and pika is somewhat light.

However, pika's punish game on ganon is generally underestimated. Ganon has little response to jolts, little response besides rolling away or the rare upB oos to shield pressure, and not enough aerial mobility or quickness in aerials to get away from pika in the air. His bair is decent, and uair works fine if pika's ever above/in front of him, but really ganon's size weight and lack of aerial mobility make him combo bait for pika. From a grab, which is admittantly easier for pika to do in this matchup than ganon, pika can do 30% without platforms and 60%+ with platforms pretty much regardless of ganon's starting percent. Pika's edgeguard game on ganon is also solid, he shouldn't really be making it back.

I'm not saying it's advantage pika. Though I kinda think it slightly is, I know almost everyone wouldn't agree, so even seems legitimate to me. Meh.

Edit: And yes to what shiri said, mostly. The ways ganon is legitimately going to get a grab we've gone over. The other ways (essentially, running in and grabbing) have a drawback. Ganon does not like being next to pika unless he has him in a grab. Otherwise, pika can just hit him with something and the combo begins. The difficulty in this match for pika mostly becomes getting inside ganon's aerial deathbox around him, where pika can start abusing ganon's large oafishness. Once he's in, ganon has few safe options and is often just trying to not get hit off and then edgeguarded.

Ganon's reward for getting a grab is large. Ganon's risk when going for a grab is also large.

 

[t3h Icy]

So overall, would you be implying that it's equal?

 

[john!]

Sorry, but from an aesthetic viewpoint I'm not liking this chart that much. If you don't mind, I'll make an new chart in Excel, maybe using some conditional formatting or something.

 

[ETWIST51294]

Um, I pretty sure falcon vs jiggs is even. Mango says it all the time. Darkrain vs Hbox kinda proved it to me.

 

[N64]

So overall, would you be implying that it's equal?

i would, yes.

 

[Cosmo!]

Sorry, but from an aesthetic viewpoint I'm not liking this chart that much.

Seconded, hard to read, looks poorly made

 

[t3h Icy]

I don't see why you guys are having so much trouble reading the chart. Do you not know what the colour spectrum is?

 

[ETWIST51294]

I don't think its bad. but I honestly don't give a crap.

 

[N64]

I think the chart looks fine to be honest. Blue is a nice calm color and red is omg danger color and the tones inbetween relatively signal comfort levels. I like it.

 

[john!]

Here's something I put together (I'm just a perfectionist about these things, and I figure it wouldn't hurt to spend an hour making it look good). It's nice because the color and ranking will automatically change when you insert a new value (<3 Excel). I can send you the file if you want to use it, but I ask that you give me credit... not necessarily on the chart, but at least in the first post. The rankings are determined like this: 26*Fox + 25*Marth... + 1*Pichu.

EDIT: Oh yeah, and I forgot to make an icon for Sheik. Let me know if you want me to make that.

 

[ETWIST51294]

It kinda hurts my eyes, but it's not bad.

 

[KirbyKaze]

More on Unknown's list:

ICs vs Peach and Samus is not "large advantage", only "advantage"
ICs vs Doc was even or in doc's favor iirc......

ICs are horrible against Peach

Literally every character in the game (excluding a bunch of the bottom ten or so characters) is better against Peach

 

[-ACE-]

N64, I agree with the vast majority of that post. I can also see the matchup being even.

 

[x After Dawn x]

Sorry, but from an aesthetic viewpoint I'm not liking this chart that much. If you don't mind, I'll make an new chart in Excel, maybe using some conditional formatting or something.

And your new chart is supposed to be aesthetically better...? It looks a LOT worse than this one.

Um, I pretty sure falcon vs jiggs is even. Mango says it all the time. Darkrain vs Hbox kinda proved it to me.

So the fact that every top Falcon player has lost to a top Jiggs player means nothing? All Falcon really has on Jiggs is dthrow to knee, and if he can't get a grab, he can't kill her.

 

[Vulcan55]

IMO, Doc only has a slight disadvantage to Marf, even with Peach and possibly Puff.

Also, I like this chart better.
I don't know why.

I'd also like to point out that the rankings, in order, are:
Fox
Shek
Marf
Falco
CF
Puff
Peach
Ganon
IC
Doc
DK
Mario
Samus
Pika
Luigi
Link
YL
GW
Zelda
M2
Ness
Roy
Yoshi
Boozer
Kirby
Pichu

Mid and low tier crazies.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

vulcan he ordered it based on the current tier list

 

[t3h Icy]

(Chart and stuff)

Ehh, I think mine is fine. One thing though is your math on the rankings; that doesn't make a whole lot of sense. The way I'm going to do it (after some of the match-ups are fixed) is adding the total for each character, and then re-weighing match-up value based on those totals. Read the data charts for SSB if that doesn't quite make sense.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

John, did you make a mistake on your sheik weighted number? i did fox marth sheik, got the same fox and marth, but got 1869 for sheik.

@t3h Icy: so you mean, do an unweighted addition of the character's matchup values to make a list, then weighing the listed based on their ranking in the unweighted list?

 

[Kyu Puff]

IC match-ups that I think should be changed:

ICs = or < Fox
ICs = Falco
ICs = or > Falcon
ICs <<< Peach
ICs << Samus at least
ICs << Ganon
ICs >> DK
ICs >>> Roy
ICs >> Yoshi

 

[Lovage]

IC = fox??!?!?!?!

get that stuff out of here

fox > or >> ic
edit: wtf i don't even know what all these colors and alligators mean....fox vs. ic 60:40 there you go

 

[-ACE-]

Ganon has a slight advantage over ICs. It's pretty close to even imo.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

hopefully by the time i post this it isnt a double post. edit:: wow nowhere close

match-up changes (sorry if there are repeats from other people)

fox vs sheik - slightly in fox's favor
fox vs puff - slightly in fox's favor
marth vs samus - slightly in marth's favor
marth vs ganon - slightly in marth's favor
peach vs falcon - even
falcon vs puff - even

 

[Fly_Amanita]

I think ICs vs. Fox is a slight advantage for Fox. Fox has a lot of obnoxious stuff, but ICs can punish his mistakes so absurdly hard.

 

[Lovage]

if wobblings on 55:45
if its off 60 40