Match-Up Chart (Outdated); please refer to the new chart.

[Fly_Amanita]

That sounds fine to me.

 

[ChivalRuse]

@ John. Pichu has a 40:60 match against himself?

 

[john!]

Yeah I made some mistakes on my chart (staying up late johns). No big deal if you don't want to use it. I might not post much because I'm not a pro, and debating this chart is starting to seem like an exercise in futility. GL making it as accurate as possible though.

 

[Kyu Puff]

Ganon has a slight advantage over ICs. It's pretty close to even imo.

In theory it seems pretty even, but Linguini and Kage destroy ICs from what I've seen. I have a really tough time in this match-up and other ICs haven't reported anything better. I'd be interesting in hearing how UI vs Linguini goes if that ever happens.

All ICs really have going for them is an easy chaingrab. The hitstun of his aerials combined with ICs traction make their shield game much weaker than usual. They don't come close to matching his aerial priority, and consequently have a really hard time getting past his wall. Nana doesn't DI so the knockback from Ganon's aerials, aside from killing them early, separates them instantly.

Edit -- I don't think wobbling affects the Fox/IC match-up that much. If Fox is caught off guard they can usually cg him once which can often set up the handoff. Even if he escapes every single time, a f-smash will set him up for an edgeguard at relatively low % with that DI.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

Hey when it says >>> that means the uber bad match-ups like ice climbers vs peach, falco vs bowser or other match-ups that are near impossible right? And >> means bad ones like falcon vs sheik or something doable but pretty hard. If so there shouldn't be that many >>>.

so >>> right near impossible ones right?

 

[Fly_Amanita]

The only time wobbling really makes a difference is when ICs grab Fox at a percentage higher than around 30% and aren't near an edge. This definitely does help on larger levels, although it doesn't change much on Yoshi's, FoD, etc.

 

[Nintendude]

Yeah, I think <<< is only for stupid **** matchups like Sheik vs. Bowser. Bad matchups like ICs vs. Peach should only be <<.

Wobbling is definitely significant in the Fox-IC matchup. Fox can escape down-throw dair really easily and with other stuff they can honestly only punish Fox about average compared to other high tiers. Grabs are relatively rare against Fox due to shine as well.

And once again, ICs < Samus. Learn to play the matchup guys. It's nowhere near ICs vs. Peach, and that one is ICs << Peach.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

If the ICs grab Fox or hit him with something that combos into a grab by an edge, he's dead with or without wobbling thanks to the handoff. I'll admit that I might underrate wobbling since I do usually just try to push Fox towards the edge and grab him there as opposed to going for grabs all over the stage.

I agree with ICs < Samus.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

Ok then if >>> is retarted **** then pichu should only have like 4 of those. Ice climbers, sheik, marth, and gannondorf. They all can outrange and chain throw the F*** out of pichu(other than marth but a grab still F***s pichu up super bad).

pichu vs fox, falco or any of the other listed charcters aren't anywhere near that bad it's doable pichu needs one move on falco or fox to wreck them. You can juggle their balls off and finish them whenever you want. jigglypuff won't rest pichu I,m crazy but not even I would take the chance of resting pichu even after a uptilt at 0% pichu is so small it's just nearly impossible I once had a jigglypuff try they missed like 3 times and lost a stock twice. she does counter him but she can't get a good rest or edge gaurd really good because he is really good at mixing up his recovery.

everyone that is >>> should be changed to >> only than the ones I stated because if they **** pichu that hard I should still get uber ***** by people worse than me right?

 

[Nintendude]

If the ICs grab Fox or hit him with something that combos into a grab by an edge, he's dead with or without wobbling thanks to the handoff.

Same goes for the entire cast though, right? It's a lot harder to get Fox stuck in a position like that than other characters, and even when he's cornered, shine can often save him. It's also so easy for Fox to take advantage of a misstep and shine you off the edge, which often results in Nana dying.

 

[-ACE-]

In theory it seems pretty even, but Linguini and Kage destroy ICs from what I've seen. I have a really tough time in this match-up and other ICs haven't reported anything better. I'd be interesting in hearing how UI vs Linguini goes if that ever happens.

I know Linguini and Kage have lost very close matches to Chu before, and Uber Ice did well against Linguini somewhat recently.

 

[Lovage]

samus > ic
with wobbling on, ic = samus maybe a hairline advantage for ic

wobbling should be banned at all tournaments

 

[Fly_Amanita]

Same goes for the entire cast though, right? It's a lot harder to get Fox stuck in a position like that than other characters, and even when he's cornered, shine can often save him. It's also so easy for Fox to take advantage of a misstep and shine you off the edge, which often results in Nana dying.

This is true, although I do think ICs have more reliable methods of comboing Fox into grabs than most other good characters.

I concede the point regarding Fox being difficult to put in such a bad situation; I have a bad of habit of always envisioning everything on Yoshi's Story, where any random grab is a lot more likely to be by an edge than on most other stages. What assumptions does this chart make about stages, anyways?

 

[pockyD]

samus > ic
with wobbling on, ic = samus maybe a hairline advantage for ic

wobbling should be banned at all tournaments

are these unrelated thoughts or do you think that's legitimate evidence

 

[Lovage]

unrelated thoughts, but me thinking about the ic vs. samus matchup brought up how hugs hadn't lost a round to fly in like 4 months until wobbling was on and fly won the set.

silly technique that changes a matchup from a game of chess to a game where "don't get grabbed" is the ONLY thing that mattters. dumb technique

 

[pockyD]

can we ban falco's SHL already

 

[Nintendude]

Good question about the stages. The chart should assuming counterpicking and whatnot, but are we using the new MBR stage list or the old traditional one that includes Mute City, Pokefloats, etc.?

 

[otg]

Good question about the stages. The chart should assuming counterpicking and whatnot, but are we using the new MBR stage list or the old traditional one that includes Mute City, Pokefloats, etc.?

It should be the new MBR rule set imo. If that is the new standard of tournies to come I don't see why we wouldn't use it.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

I think it would be best to go by the new stage list, especially since similarly conservative stage lists have been pretty common ever since the Pound 4 rules were announced.

Regarding wobbling, this thread isn't the place to discuss whether it should be legal or not, but we should figure out if we're assuming it's legal since it does change quite a few match-ups.

 

[t3h Icy]

Agreement:
Doc > Samus to Doc = Samus
Falco >> Ness to Falco >>> Ness
Falco = Sheik to Falco > Sheik
Fox = Sheik to Fox > Sheik
Fox >> Yoshi to Fox >>> Yoshi
ICs > Samus to Samus > ICs

Some Agreement:
Doc > Luigi to Doc = Luigi
Doc >> Y.Link to Doc > Y.Link
Falco > Falcon to Falco >> Falcon
Falco > Ganon to Falco >> Ganon
Falco >> DK to Falco >>> DK
Falco >>> Roy to Falco >> Roy
Falcon >> Luigi to Falcon > Luigi
Fox >> Jigglypuff to Fox > Jigglypuff
Ganon = DK to Ganon > DK
Ganon > Pikachu to Ganon = Pikachu
ICs >>> Pichu to ICs >> Pichu
ICs >>> Yoshi to ICs >> Yoshi
Peach = Falco to Peach > Falco

This chart will be considering Wobbling is banned and using the new rule set.

EDIT: Posted in the first post stating those two.

 

[Lovage]

falco > sheik...ehhh why can't we just stick with numbers lol

 

[x After Dawn x]

Why is Falco >> with Ganon and Falcon? Three fairs from Ganon, or a combo into a knee from Falcon, and he's dead. With Falcon striking out FoD and FD, and Pokemon Stadium no longer being a neutral, it's not that big of an advantage for Falcon. Almost same thing with Ganon; he strikes out FD and some other stage, and without Pokemon Stadium as a neutral, Falco doesn't really have much against him.

Ask Linguini about the Falco vs Ganon matchup. He hasn't lost to Falcos in forever in tourneys. He says it's an even matchup, if not, only 55-45 in Falco's favor (he's using numbers, not me, don't freak out at me).

 

[otg]

Falco ***** both of them because he has unlimited bullets and can force them to approach. Then he destroys them with combos and priority. Yeah they get in like 3 hits and he dies, w'e. They do that to everyone, nothing new there

 

[x After Dawn x]

The difference is that other characters can actually recover.

 

[otg]

People underestimate Falco's recovery.

 

[Mogwai]

People underestimate Falco's recovery.

love you Max

 

[x After Dawn x]

Maybe at 0 %, but when you get kneed on the edge of a stage at 60 %...good luck recovering.

If only poor Falco had a better recovery...

Also, is Fox vs Sheik being changed to a slight advantage for Fox or is it being kept as it is?

 

[Mogwai]

Maybe at 0 %, but when you get kneed on the edge of a stage at 60 %...good luck recovering.

when other characters get kneed at the edge of the stage at 60% they're dead too. and how, exactly, do you plan on kneeing Falco at the edge?

 

[otg]

and how, exactly, do you plan on kneeing Falco at the edge?

clearly the falco is ********.

 

[t3h Icy]

Maybe at 0 %, but when you get kneed on the edge of a stage at 60 %...good luck recovering.

If only poor Falco had a better recovery...

Also, is Fox vs Sheik being changed to a slight advantage for Fox or is it being kept as it is?

Anything under agreement is basically pending. I'm just going to update several at a time so it doesn't have to be every hour.

 

[Vulcan55]

vulcan he ordered it based on the current tier list

I know, I was referring to the "ranking" on John's chart.

 

[pockyD]

Maybe at 0 %, but when you get kneed on the edge of a stage at 60 %...good luck recovering.

If only poor Falco had a better recovery...

hahahaha what

are you an elaborate troll or something? very few people have opinions as consistently misguided as yourself

 

[otg]

hahahaha what

are you an elaborate troll or something? very few people have opinions as consistently misguided as yourself

lolll, go easy on him. He thinks he knows what hes talking about.

 

[-ACE-]

Ask Linguini about the Falco vs Ganon matchup. He hasn't lost to Falcos in forever in tourneys. He says it's an even matchup, if not, only 55-45 in Falco's favor (he's using numbers, not me, don't freak out at me).

It's not even. That misconception is predominantly based on the many Linguini vs Chops matches that have happened over the years. Linguini always wins, but he honestly plays the matchup so much better than chops. I know chops thinks he's the heat when it comes to that matchup but he approaches too often and leaves Linguini way too many openings. Linguini has since lost 3 sets to Shiz (very recently; the only sets he as lost to Falco in tourney in 3 years to my knowledge), although 2 were close, and I'd put my money on PP beating him next time they meet in tournament. Linguini has also trashed Mango's Falco more than once, but tbh Mango really needs to work on that matchup. Kage beat Mango, and Falco/Fox are Kage's worst matchups. PP wrecked Kage, and I had no doubts of this even after seeing Kage beat Mango. Maybe part of that is bias because I've played PP so many times, but that guy really knows the matchup.

Advantage Falco. I'm on the fence as to whether it is a "slight" advantage or not.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Some Agreement:
Doc > Luigi to Doc = Luigi
Doc >> Y.Link to Doc > Y.Link
Falco > Falcon to Falco >> Falcon
Falco > Ganon to Falco >> Ganon
Falco >> DK to Falco >>> DK
Falco >>> Roy to Falco >> Roy
Falcon >> Luigi to Falcon > Luigi
Fox >> Jigglypuff to Fox > Jigglypuff
Ganon = DK to Ganon > DK
Ganon > Pikachu to Ganon = Pikachu
ICs >>> Pichu to ICs >> Pichu
ICs >>> Yoshi to ICs >> Yoshi
Peach = Falco to Peach > Falco

falco vs falcon and ganon are only > not >>. both characters have significant abilities to do stuff to falco once they get a hit. Falco wins if he doesn't get hit, but in the words of mango "everyone gets hit"

 

[unknown522]

unknown, roy vs marth is only slight disadvantage/disadvantage. Roy isn't THAT bad of a character. If you dont know how roy plays, you might think otherwise, but its definitely not a large disadvantage (as far as this chart is concerned)


I would like people to stop exaggerating matchups.

Large advantage basically means there is no chance for the lower character to win, like say marth vs pichu. The majority of mid/low tier vs high/mid will be slight or standard.

LOL, I don't exaggerate. There's a crap load of impossible matchups in this game.

It's sad that roy has the same moves as marth, but has to hit him 5 times more than marth has to hit roy.

You can never forget about edgeguarding.

More on Unknown's list:

ICs vs Peach and Samus is not "large advantage", only "advantage"
ICs vs Doc was even or in doc's favor iirc......

Doc v. Icies is Doc's favor. The Doc boards and the ic boards agree with this, but unknown disagrees... any reason why?

lol, dunno why doc apparedntly beat ICs. He has so much punishable crap that will get him wobbled. He also has a hard time splitting them up.

 

[Nintendude]

I think Doc vs. ICs is even. Neither can do particularly nasty things to each other but Doc has a hard time exploiting ICs' weaknesses.

 

[unknown522]

^ well you can disagree if you want.

As long as you don't disrespect me, it's all good.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

unknown do you main or secondary any of those characters or do you just throw out your opinion?

i main marth, i play against good roys. The matchup is for marth, but its definitely not impossible for roy. Did you know roy has a lot of the throw mixups marth has? if you DI in from dthrow he gets a sweetspot fsmash and if you DI in from fthrow he gets one too. Roy also can edgeguard marth, his sword is the same length even if his sweetspot is in the middle (which lets him hit with max range for weak hits then use that hit to gain a spacing advantage), and his shffl is much faster than marth's.

yea marth has advantage but its nowhere near how bad pichu has it. I'd say advantage marth, overall.

 

[otg]

I actually happen to think that Doc separates them pretty well with dsmash/fair/throws. Platform camp, force them to approach cause your projectile is better than theirs and then just hit nana once or twice off stage and bam, popo is dthrow fodder.