Match-Up Chart (Outdated); please refer to the new chart.

[BunBun]

Ganon is super fake. He's almost as bad as that bottom tier trash character named Captain Falcon.

Pick up real characters, like Link.

 

[SDC]

Adjustments for Mewtwo matchups:

vs Sheik should be -3
vs Jiggz should be -3 (jiggz can rest mewtwo's tail, not cool)
vs Ganon should be -3 (a good ganon that spaces well and knows the matchup destroys any mewtwo just as well as marth does, end of discussion)
vs Samus should be at least -2, or maybe -3 (she just outprioritizes him, and is faster then he is, it's really not much of a contest)
vs Roy should be 0 (he's a bad marth, so, yeah)

You guys seriously underestimate just how bad this character is lol

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

You know if m2 players were gay with teleport i'd think gannon couldn't caught him like ever same with kirby or puff or something.then just ban YS and you're nearly set. I doun't know i've camped falco on KJ64 enough to make him rage quit but to be fair he only tryed to keep up with me for a minute or so and he onl landed like 2 lasers in that time but if he sat down I guess he could've did some decent damage. I don't know I play really gay sometimes. I'm into that kind of gayness sometimes and I like how H-box plays

 

[-ACE-]

Icg, you want gay? How about you using that precious pichu shield against an incoming ganon aerial and he wavelands to grab instead. GG

 

[Dark Hart]

Mew2 is so dumb lol, his tail is part of his hurt box

 

[Divinokage]

Ganon is super fake. He's almost as bad as that bottom tier trash character named Captain Falcon.

Pick up real characters, like Link.

Better luck next time.

Icg, you want gay? How about you using that precious pichu shield against an incoming ganon aerial and he wavelands to grab instead. GG

Some people think in theory any character can outgay any other character... yes in theory.. When you actually play it's a whole different story.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

Icg, you want gay? How about you using that precious pichu shield against an incoming ganon aerial and he wavelands to grab instead. GG

why is pichu not moving? if she stops moving then pichu just lost the game. chain grabs/throws suck like really bad. i'd be smarter to d-tilt than to sheild or to DD away and nair back. gannon shouldn't even be fast enough to lock down pichu unless you deciede to sit in your shield or get grabed or something.

also pichu can duck under most of gannon's grab to be fair

 

[BunBun]

Oh wow, I just realized how my last post sounded in light of recent events. That was way douchier than I intended it to be.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

if it makes you feel any better BunBun f*** you, you flithy kirby main. better?

don't worry BunBun regard is good. I regerd not regerding more

 

[KirbyKaze]

BunBun is a bro

Kind of

Mewtwo Sheik is like weird

I'm still not sure how he gets in but they assure me that careful D-tilting makes Sheik MU near even lololol

Oh yeah and baby SB camp

Apparently tipped D-tilt ****!combos Sheik too lololol

Man Sheik sucks

 

[VGmasta]

Well since y'all are always talkin' about Mewtwo in here, what can Mewtwo even do vs. Ganon besides roll/teleport camp? I can't imagine Mewtwo having too many different approaches against Ganon.

 

[otg]

Baby shadowball spam is apparently way too good

 

[Stevo]

that **** wiggles while it flies through the air

HOW DO YOU STOP THAT!?!?!?!

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

beats everything

 

[KAOSTAR]

M2 sheik. I find it a bit harder than 40-60, but I dont have massive sheik practice and Im def not as good at the MU as some ppl.

Basically, m2 has respectable combos on sheik. You just have to kill sheik b4 u hit 120%. Thats kinda the way it works. down throw tech chases and platform nair tech chases along with juggles from uptits djc uair help.

Sheik doesnt have a great approach vs m2, thats assuming the m2 knows to staay out of here diagonal needle line when she is air born. blah blah blah.

m2s ground based approach is never amazing. but the point is that m2 can approach sheik if she is on the ground. Its not too good if she jumps and hangs a fair over ur head.

the MU is basically the writeup I did some time ago, but with somebody doing it better=40-60 I suppose.


ganon. basically the zelda MU. only harder cuz ganon has ftilt and jab and more options out of grab and surprise sexy *** wavelands. Its do able but ganon can wall m2 out alot better. fair to ftilt or jab pretty much ruins his approach. Ganons stomp can trade with m2s vertical range so he isnt helpless in that area either.

Realistically, u have to dtilt ganon as his ftilt or jab is retracting or when they dont do it after the fair. Its kinda like a toss up that the ganon player controls. But m2 can take adv of ganon in the air by shooting shadow balls. and its possible to play a really campy style vs ganon in which case ganon is forced to approach u more and less trying to hold space.

M2 wants to get ganon in his shield on a platform or to miss a tech on it. and he can tech chase pretty well. His ground zero even approach isnt too great.

in order to win these games u pretty much have to outplay sheik and camp ganon or just get him off stage, the edgeguard is pretty easy. but camping ganon is not end all be all. M2 loses both of these MUs

 

[Divinokage]

why is pichu not moving? if she stops moving then pichu just lost the game. chain grabs/throws suck like really bad. i'd be smarter to d-tilt than to sheild or to DD away and nair back. gannon shouldn't even be fast enough to lock down pichu unless you deciede to sit in your shield or get grabed or something.

also pichu can duck under most of gannon's grab to be fair

Are you serious? I think Ganon is fast enough to lock down Pichu lol. I really wonder sometimes what kind of scrubby Ganons people play...

 

[SDC]

To follow up on what Kaos said,

I don't know much about the sheik matchup, only that Mewtwo has few viable options, is outsped, outprioritized, and overpowered by sheik. He loses pretty easily. Sheik just views him as a mobile punching bag pretty much.

Ganon is even worse. Spaced fair, jab and ftilt alone pretty much wreck mewtwo's entire game. Seriously, mewtwo has no reply to well spaced fairs, only to camp sb but that will only last so long.

Both of those matchups are hard as hell, and should be -3.

Jiggz overpowers mewtwo, can rest him from anywhere (he has a huge hurtbox), and will win the battle in the long run, she just has more and better weapons then he has. -3

Samus is honestly another extremely difficult matchup for Mewtwo. she's faster then he is, outprioritizes him, and outprojectiles him, outcamps him, out everything. She really is one of his more difficult matchups, I'd say it's -2 or -3 easily.

And for god's sake ICG, ganon>>>>>>pichu lol. It's not even a discussion. -6 for pichu lol

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

I used to think gannon was super bad myself then I fought m2k's gannon after playing with some gannnon main. I then learned it wasn't so bad. gannon vs pichu is seriously like only bad on paper with gannon chain throwing pichu till like 56% then end with bair to edge gaurd which is hit or miss then land a strong attack and he's dead f*** his recovery.

NO gannon won't be getting that grab, at least not one pre a stock there's no wait unless you're fighting a terrible pichu or are just some kind of super beast. also I've had fun s***ing on gannon's sheild I could nair the front of his sheild and duck you miss and I grab XD I really want to do that the next time I play.

Also how will gannon lock down pichu? fair jab works for sheilds but he's running around all over the place waiting for your reaction to to come in and d-tilt, nair, or jolt or up-B behide and grab/up-smash.

other than fair jab on sheild how the f*** is gannon going to lock down pichu? this is just a 20-80 match-up for pichu where he can sit back and run as she thinks about what to do and approach when it's safe.

 

[Divinokage]

I used to think gannon was super bad myself then I fought m2k's gannon after playing with some gannnon main. I then learned it wasn't so bad. gannon vs pichu is seriously like only bad on paper with gannon chain throwing pichu till like 56% then end with bair to edge gaurd which is hit or miss then land a strong attack and he's dead f*** his recovery.

NO gannon won't be getting that grab, at least not one pre a stock there's no wait unless you're fighting a terrible pichu or are just some kind of super beast. also I've had fun s***ing on gannon's sheild I could nair the front of his sheild and duck you miss and I grab XD I really want to do that the next time I play.

Also how will gannon lock down pichu? fair jab works for sheilds but he's running around all over the place waiting for your reaction to to come in and d-tilt, nair, or jolt or up-B behide and grab/up-smash.

other than fair jab on sheild how the f*** is gannon going to lock down pichu? this is just a 20-80 match-up for pichu where he can sit back and run as she thinks about what to do and approach when it's safe.

Some of these tactics are like if you play Fox vs Ganon.. lol. I'm sorry but I can't argue with this.. Wait for Ganon to do something? I can just as well wait for Pichu to kill himself.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

can you least least tell me how you lock down pichu? yeah it's a lot like gannon vs fox I guess. however if I try to DD camp to nair combos as fox I lose really bad. don't know I have a lot of trouble with meat wallers(puff/gannon/marth etc.) as fox without trying to laser camp their a**es hard. pichu's nair is safer.

but explain how you lock down pichu as gannon? lets say on FD, DL64, BF, PS I always ban YS for a reason.

also retreating fairs lose on platform stages normally if you jolt the platform above gannon.

 

[Druggedfox]

I can just as well wait for Pichu to kill himself.

Loooooooooooool kage too good.

So why is pichu's nair safer than fox's?

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

distance it covers, faster L-canel, same basic sheild pressure but even if you're ******** you can inf. spam nair against their whatever by buffering rolls i've seen a match where that's all the pichu player did and avoided peach CCs. Also catuar himself posted something about it in the pichu boards.

I struggle to spam fox's nair nearly as well as pichu's. but you simplely have to be smart with it.

let me find his quote

Pichu's nair is more spam-able for intelligent players because of how much faster pichu is frame-wise. It gets beaten by a lot more moves than fox's nair, but smart players don't challenge moves they know will beat it...

techinally you can nair their sheild so that the first part hits right before you land and you can beat them to a sheild grab with your own grab.

 

[t3h Icy]

Since there's still some interest in this and I like doing Stats/Graphics/Charts/etc, I have a proposal.

First off, advantage/disadvantages ONLY. This number garble really killed progress, and people don't stick with the guidelines I make, and play on their own ideas of how the chart should go. This makes a total cluster**** of a mess, especially since a lot of the people doing this are dumb.

Secondly, I'll drop the >>> and <<< and make the others more tightly knit. Since people can't seem to differentiate between three levels of advantages, while one would be too vague, we're going to use two. It worked very well with the SSB64 chart.

And I insist these are concrete as follows:

>> (Sheik vs Link, Marth vs Bowser)
> (Sheik vs Ganondorf, Marth vs Doc)
= (everything within Sheik vs Fox and Fox vs Sheik)
< (Ganondorf vs Sheik, Doc vs Marth)
<< (Link vs Sheik, Bowser vs Marth)

So the general, current consensus of Sheik/Fox are the borders of equal, and anything more even is also equal such as Fox/Marth, Fox/Falco and for the love of god, Mewtwo/Zelda. The same follows with the other examples. DO NOT CREATE YOUR OWN IDEAS FOR THESE FIVE LEVELS.

Third, ALL discussion towards changes go here and not on the topics I made before. Even for top tiers, the boards are lazy/don't care, so everything for here is in here. This will likely make a huge mess, but I'll control it and guide discussions.

Fourth, to get a base without a giant mess at the beginning, I'll convert the 7-level system to 5 myself as opposed to making a blank chart. This will greatly reduce initial changes, and there will certainly be some errors off of my own judgment, but we'll fix those.

Fifth, this will never be truly complete and will be on-going as the metagame changes. Before, we had agree that Jigglypuff had an advantageous match-up against Falco, but since then, many would argue it's equal. These types of changes will always be happening, so the chart will always be ready for any new arguments about these changes.

And sixth, I'll make a fresh new thread for yet another new chart. Despite that this thread has almost over 9000 posts, and well over 200k views, much of this thread is filled with outdated ideas and failed approaches. Think of it as the transition from Phanna's to Worldgem's to mine, only the author is the same as before.

The current chart is already a year old and we've seen a lot of new potential and things we hadn't imagined before through Pound 4, Apex, and many other tournaments. While variations wouldn't differ much between now and then, a solid chart that everyone can use as a guide would be much more useful than this semi-sloppy chart right now.

I'll do my best once again to help make this happen if we have enough knowledgeable people working towards this, and enough interest to actually want to make a new chart.

Also, I insist that you all do your best to ignore idiots. If we have a bunch of randoms expressing odd opinions (particularly with low tiers), I'll message top players of said character. However, this isn't to say that anyone only well-known players can participate, as we've seen some thorough posts from seemingly newbies, such as DruggedFox.

Perhaps we'll even go the extra mile of having multiple charts for each stage for both more information and less arguing of match-ups due to stages. I think this would be really neat and informative to have, but it would be extremely tedious to do all of it. If this also flies, I'll only include the 5 neutrals and Pokemon Stadium for now, as there's some debate over which stages should be legal. In the case that Brinstar, Rainbow Cruise and/or Kongo Jungle stay legal, I'll add charts for them later on.

Are you guys interested, yes or no?

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

looks good I like how the removing of the >>>'s kills low tier debates makes it like > loses and then >> gets *****.

Also as far as I know there is very little debate over KJ being illegal other than by a few peach mains.


back to kage how will gannon lock down pichu or even fox when they DD campo your a** and come in to pick at you to death? how do you lock them down?

 

[Druggedfox]

However, this isn't to say that anyone only well-known players can participate, as we've seen some thorough posts from seemingly newbies, such as DruggedFox.

<333

Though, I do want to ask about the ">" as an advantage.

You cited sheik vs ganon and marth vs doc. With that... I feel like a lot of the high tier matchups we might as well go ahead and sign off as "=". I mean, how many high tier matchups are honestly as bad as sheik vs ganon? Tell me what you think of this, tentatively?

Fox = Falco, Marth, Sheik
Fox > Jigglypuff, Peach, Captain Falcon, Ganondorf

But then, I wouldn't really say fox has an advantage over falcon to the same degree sheik has an advantage over ganondorf. They're not comparable advantages, but there's no way I could ever say Fox = Capt. Falcon.

Thoughts?

 

[t3h Icy]

Fox/Falcon is within the same region Sheik/Ganon, as both aren't god-awful match-ups, but both are clearly not equal. With only 5 different levels as opposed to 21 (numbers), we do lose some precision.

Hax and Scar have both argued that Sheik is easier than Fox (slightly) against Falcon, but since both are harder than Sheik vs Fox, but not as horrible as Link vs Sheik, they would both fall under <. Sheik/Ganon is the border between < and <<, as there are match-ups significantly worse than Sheik/Ganon.

That's one of the cons of using a less precise system, but the pros (with this community) outweigh it.

So yes, if your opinion is true, we would have Sheik > Ganondorf and Fox > Falcon. Both happen to be on opposite boundaries of ">".

 

[JPOBS]

honestly, this could work fine if people just ignore opinions/posts which are obviously wrong/bad.

like, if you disagree with someone then fine discuss it, but if someone says fox/pichu is even, just ignore it ffs.

 

[Pink Reaper]

I'd like to point out I proposed the << < = > >> system like, a year ago.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I keep forgetting every Mewtwo player like actually lives on WC so they think Mewtwo has like 13 hit death combos on every character (sans Puff, Samus, Luigi, Peach) regardless of DI.

 

[t3h Icy]

I'd like to point out I proposed the << < = > >> system like, a year ago.

I had more faith back then, but yeah I do remember that.

 

[Dark Hart]

I'll try not to be an idiot when I post here anymore.

 

[KAOSTAR]

<<fox
<<falcon
<<puff
<<peach
<<sheik
<falco
<marth
<ganon
=samus
=IC
=mario
=doc
=luigi
=pikachu
=yl
=link
=M2
=yoshi
=zelda
=DK
=GW
=Roy
>ness
>kirby
>bowser
>pichu

 

[Dark Hart]

KAO, are you referring to yourself with that post?

How do I choose you on the character select screen?

 

[t3h Icy]

So is this a yes then guys?

 

[x After Dawn x]

if it's a yes:

falco = fox
falco = falco
falco < puff
falco = or < peach
falco = sheik
falco > falcon
falco > ganon
falco = ICs
falco = marth (what are people complaining about in this matchup nowadays? wouldn't be surprised if people think it sways one way or the other now)

 

[JPOBS]

After Dawn, if you're using the same general scheme for characterizing matchups as Icy is, theres no way in hell Peach > Falco.

its =. I wanna say Falco > Peach honestly but most people probably wont like that.

 

[KAOSTAR]

its a yes from me.

im not 100 on what dark hart is asking.

 

[t3h Icy]

I want to point out again that we'll be have a chart for all the legal stages. You guys did read that right? -_-

 

[KAOSTAR]

I want to point out again that we'll be have a chart for all the legal stages. You guys did read that right? -_-

you said perhaps. I didn't know u wanted stage specific already. I think few MUs will change enough to make a difference. most MU's will be equal.

yoshi story is probably enough to make a change in MUs somewhere. like marth ganon probably <<for mewtwo but in my experience marth on yoshi's is only bad if ur eating tippers. mewtwo can actually make use of the short sides and low ceiling vs marth peach floaties. so imo only ganon would go to >> on ys.

the rest are still equal. **** is padded in both directions so ='s probably will rarely change.

so m2 chart is the same on the neutrals except on ys ganon and falco are>> m2. they gain more killing power and tech reading is easier.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Since I refuse to comment too seriously on ratios

I will agree with Kao in that Mewtwo beats Ness