Match-Up Chart (Outdated); please refer to the new chart.

[Dark Hart]

More johns than the coaching thread...

 

[HugS™]

Eh, I can understand the rationale behind johning over losses, but I'd rather not make my opponent feel like I'm trying to discredit his victory. I'd prefer to quietly figure out what I could have done better and let the results speak for themselves next time.

That's a lot easier for you fly, because people aren't scrutinizing your every move and mistake as much as they are with me. Id love to stay quiet, but people don't let me. I never brag about my wins publicly unless I'm asked or provoked. I find it to be disrespectful and a desparate way to make a name for yourself, and I despise it when it's done to me.

But yeah ur all right. I've said enough. It all comes down to gametime now

 

[otg]

That's a lot easier for you fly, because people aren't scrutinizing your every move and mistake as much as they are with me. Id love to stay quiet, but people don't let me. I never brag about my wins publicly unless I'm asked or provoked. I find it to be disrespectful and a desparate way to make a name for yourself, and I despise it when it's done to me.

But yeah ur all right. I've said enough. It all comes down to gametime now

I think the reason why people are giving you so much **** is because you main a mid tier, and people are always looking for any reason they can to downplay mid tiers. Seriously, just look through this thread again.

 

[t3h Icy]

Updated:
DK = Doc
DK > Luigi
Doc = Jigglypuff
Doc = Zelda
Link > Samus
Samus > Mario

Now discussing Mario:

Mario << Jigglypuff
Mario << Marth
Mario < Falco
Mario < Falcon
Mario < Fox
Mario < Ganondorf
Mario < Ice Climbers
Mario < Peach
Mario < Samus
Mario < Sheik
Mario = DK
Mario = Doc
Mario = Luigi
Mario > Link
Mario > Mewtwo
Mario > Mr.G&W
Mario >> Bowser
Mario >> Kirby
Mario >> Ness
Mario >> Pikachu
Mario >> Roy
Mario >> Yoshi
Mario >> Young Link
Mario >> Zelda
Mario >>> Pichu

 

[NJzFinest]

Mario = YLink
Mario < Link
Mario < DK

Imo, Mario at least = Zelda. I remember talking on Eggz's thread that Zelda ***** Mario back when I was serious about Zelda lol, but I wanna see what Marios think of it these days.

*takes a trip to the Mario forums to let them know it's Marios turn in the MU thread*

 

[Dark Hart]

Am I the only person who thinks that Link sucks?

 

[NJzFinest]

Yes, imo, Link is secretly high mid tier material at least. Link is the low tier that has shown most success from low tier mains throughout the history of Smash, regardless of the metagame.
Sure, we had a DK raise up (Bum), a Pikachu (Axe), and some others, but Link consistently had more people popping up and doing pretty well (Skler, Germ, Deva, Trevyn/Zarelid, Azen, and I guess HDL = <3).
And when I say low tier, I mean characters under ICs (let's be real now xD).

 

[Dark Hart]

IMO Link is a piece of **** character that gets out played and out ranged by almost all Top, High, Mid, and Low tiers, and some Bottom.

 

[NJzFinest]

Out ranged?

lol.... sword + projectiles

His Nair alone makes him better then half the game haha. I say you just don't know to much about Link and we'll leave it at that xD

 

[Alphicans]

His nair is pretty beast.

 

[TheLake]

Whoa whoa whoa wait wait a waaiit a minute

who and where did it say doc = zelda?

cause they

are totally....right

maybe....

...

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Zelda = whole cast

 

[Shroomed]

That post about johns made me <3 you more Hugo

though that doesn't change the fact that I'm gonna **** you up lol

pound 4 was before I actually learned the samus matchup....I beat you after I played darkmike at like the next 3 norcal tournies

Phil knows doc hella well, have you seen his doc? Lol

I definitely can't wait till we play again Hugo, pride on the line now

whoever thinks doc = Zelda loses credibility IMO

 

[NJzFinest]

Seeing how every Zelda main thinks it's =, I think we have a problem here.

 

[Merkuri]

Yes, imo, Link is secretly high mid tier material at least. Link is the low tier that has shown most success from low tier mains throughout the history of Smash, regardless of the metagame.
Sure, we had a DK raise up (Bum), a Pikachu (Axe), and some others, but Link consistently had more people popping up and doing pretty well (Skler, Germ, Deva, Trevyn/Zarelid, Azen, and I guess HDL = <3).
And when I say low tier, I mean characters under ICs (let's be real now xD).

You forgot Aniki. He beat world Champion Ken. He was considered one the world's best for a while. And I think Link is low mid-tier, not high at all.

And it is so not Doc = Zelda. That chart needs to be changed. If doc decides to spam pills Zelda is ****ed; because of her ****ty mobility Zelda has no answer for pills, she either has to neutral b them in which case doc jumps and pills against and she gets hit or she has to jump over them which is leaves her open. Wave dash out to grab or dsmash out of shield works on Zelda's kicks unless she is retreating in which case you just pills somemore. it's Doc > Zelda.

 

[NJzFinest]

Eh, he beat Ken in two friendlies. Then again he did beat Ken in the USA vs Japan crew battle at JGT in 2005. I guess he's legit lol.

As for Doc vs Zelda, you forgot Zelda can shield hehe. Also, Zelda is perfectly fine if she jumps, it's not like you can cancel pill lag lol. If Doc is far away and spamming pills, the lag from the pills + the distance he has to cover is too much. He shouldn't be spamming those too close to Zelda because of the startup lag and Zeldas reach + non laggy moves. Sure, he can do retreating pills, but then that brings you back to my first point where you're still not going to be able to follow up anyways. I'm not saying pills don't matter, I just don't see how they can completely lock down Zelda.

Unfortunately, just like for Samus doing wavedash Oos to jab, dsmash, w/e, same goes for Doc/Mario. If he tries to catch Zelda after a kick, he's going to be kicked. The range and lack of lag on those kicks are surprisingly that good.

 

[Dark Hart]

Anyone using Aniki as an example is dumber than me saying Link is bottom tier.

 

[Merkuri]

Eh, he beat Ken in two friendlies. Then again he did beat Ken in the USA vs Japan crew battle at JGT in 2005. I guess he's legit lol.

As for Doc vs Zelda, you forgot Zelda can shield hehe. Also, Zelda is perfectly fine if she jumps, it's not like you can cancel pill lag lol. If Doc is far away and spamming pills, the lag from the pills + the distance he has to cover is too much. He shouldn't be spamming those too close to Zelda because of the startup lag and Zeldas reach + non laggy moves. Sure, he can do retreating pills, but then that brings you back to my first point where you're still not going to be able to follow up anyways. I'm not saying pills don't matter, I just don't see how they can completely lock down Zelda.

Unfortunately, just like for Samus doing wavedash Oos to jab, dsmash, w/e, same goes for Doc/Mario. If he tries to catch Zelda after a kick, he's going to be kicked. The range and lack of lag on those kicks are surprisingly that good.

Doc can spam pills at mid range just fine. I didn't forget Zelda could shield, it's just irrelevant because the pills will deplete the shield. I also don't invision why you think spamming pills at close range is dangerous, due to her dumb air mobility she won't be able to short hob kick him inbetween pills, if you were thinking she can then you're wrong. And I don't see what other move Zelda can use to punish the pills; and to make it clear to you to the pills lock zelda down because she has a harder time than most characters avoiding them hence it forces her to approach which she has hard time doing because of the pills.

And Zelda's can only kick him if he waves dash out of the shield while retreating, furthurmore if doc wave dashes in front of zelda and she kicks she will not sweet spot the kick because he's far too close. In which case the kick is useless and I'm sure doc can cc it and punish her afterwards.

Doc > Zelda, there is nothing about this match up which resembles equality.

Anyone using Aniki as an example is dumber than me saying Link is bottom tier.

We were talking about historically successful Links and it would be ******** for Aniki not to be listed. Also Aniki from back then > you now.

 

[Dark Hart]

We were talking about historically successful Links and it would be ******** for Aniki not to be listed. Also Aniki from back then > you now.

1. Didn't know that, sorry.

2. I doubt it!! lol make more assumptions, scrub. I can beat any 04/05 Link with any of my characters in this day and age. Link sucks so that's not saying much.

 

[john!]

2. I doubt it!! lol make more assumptions, scrub. I can beat any 04/05 Link with any of my characters in this day and age. Link sucks so that's not saying much.

wat

 

[Merkuri]

1. Didn't know that, sorry.

2. I doubt it!! lol make more assumptions, scrub. I can beat any 04/05 Link with any of my characters in this day and age. Link sucks so that's not saying much.

You're getting 2-0d by Yoshi players(lol) so I'm pretty sure the best link in the world a few years back would beat you now.

 

[Dark Hart]

I hate link XD

and lol if you think I was serious about me versus bloshi, there was no way I could make it into the bracket at that point. bring up more tourney sets from 8 months ago lol

my statement still stands, and you're dumb

 

[rhan]

Mario = YLink
Mario < Link
Mario < DK

Imo, Mario at least = Zelda. I remember talking on Eggz's thread that Zelda ***** Mario back when I was serious about Zelda lol, but I wanna see what Marios think of it these days.

*takes a trip to the Mario forums to let them know it's Marios turn in the MU thread*

NJ I know you probably play Young Link a hellava lot better than I do but I have to disagree with that.

Young Link doesn't have many options against a good Mario... Learned this by playing Boss....

60/40 Mario's favor imo.

 

[TheManaLord]

Mario and doc are in fact equal with Zelda. Any floaty or semi floaty char Zelda does well against

 

[Dark Hart]

Agreed, ML: Zelda = Doc/Mario

 

[Merkuri]

Doc rocks Zelda. And sadly you Zelda mains would get rocked by any semi-decent doc player.

And@TML: So Zelda also = Ganondorf? Lol even the thought of it is funny.

 

[ranmaru]

Where in the hell have I seen a zelda player... :/ Sheik, yes, but no zelda. :[

Does it matter which characters equals what? Because I'm sure their options don't equal each other and that people would play a ZELDA totally different than someone playing a DOC.

So let us say every other character IS equal to every other other character, then why are most of us losing? xD

Also, Merkuri, you going to Apex?

 

[NJzFinest]

I think it's good to note that Zeldas don't play good Docs and vice versa.

Idc if Doc>Zelda, I'm just saying pill spam is very medicore, if anything.

And Rhan... I've actually never played YLink vs either Mario. Link yes, YLink never lol, so what you say carries more weight. It's just that, when it comes to YLink/Link, most of the matchups aren't too different (when comparing ratios).

 

[ranmaru]

I only heard of the Lake and heard that he was a good zelda. I won't give disrespect to ANYONE for who they play. :]

Meh you take your pills sonny. Jk. I pill spam when I should... sometimes. xD

 

[Dark Hart]

Doc rocks Zelda. And sadly you Zelda mains would get rocked by any semi-decent doc player.

And@TML: So Zelda also = Ganondorf? Lol even the thought of it is funny.

Dude, who the **** are you, where did you come from, and why do you think you know things?

 

[Merkuri]

Dude, who the **** are you, where did you come from, and why do you think you know things?

Unlike you I'm someone who doesn't get 2-0d by Yoshi players.

Also, Merkuri, you going to Apex?

Me going or not is dependent on my financial situation. If I get that job I'm aiming for next week then I'll be there.

 

[Kyu Puff]

Dude, who the **** are you, where did you come from, and why do you think you know things?

He's virusbluemage and he's from trinidad or something...

 

[ChivalRuse]

Unlike you I'm someone who doesn't get 2-0d by Yoshi players.

**** just got serious.

 

[john!]

Dude, who the **** are you, where did you come from, and why do you think you know things?

I just watched you vs. Bloshi cuz Merkuri''s talking about it. Unless you've gotten significantly better since then, I don't think you are in a position to criticize others for not knowing much about Melee.

And before you ask, yep let's MM if we ever meet. Even if you're better than me though, "my statement still stands".

 

[giuocob]

Dude, who the **** are you, where did you come from, and why do you think you know things?

I was sort of thinking the same thing about you, actually.

 

[Roneblaster]

this is some good MU discussion going on here.

 

[Rappster]

Dude, who the **** are you, where did you come from, and why do you think you know things?

I'm rapp. i don't know nothing. that's why i don't post anything.

 

[Kyu Puff]

Except a million word long wall of green text.

Can people stop arguing about who knows things... you should be able to tell from what someone says about a match-up if they know what they're talking about or not, and if they don't, just ignore them or try to correct them. The chart doesn't change just because a random person has an opinion...

 

[john!]

Except a million word long wall of green text.

Can people stop arguing about who knows things... you should be able to tell from what they say about a match-up if they know what they're talking about or not, and if they don't, just ignore them or try to correct them. The chart doesn't change just because a random person has an opinion...

It does though. This chart is the result of community opinion. Furthermore, people naturally seek reasons and evidence for what they already believe, rather than keeping a truly open mind. That's why it's so easy for someone with a totally wrong opinion to sound like they know what they're talking about... because it's possible to twist the facts enough to conform to almost every opinion. This is one of the main reasons why I think the opinions of random forumgoers about matchups should be given very little consideration, and we should look to tournament results almost exclusively to determine a list like this.

 

[Dark Hart]

When the **** did this turn into a hate Dark Hart thread?

@Merkuri - thanks for answering my question, ***hole
@john! - good **** at gauging my skill from a Zelda vs Yoshi set back at TO5

Since you guys can use that dumb set (WHERE THE COMMENTATORS SPECIFICALLY SAID I DIDN'T CARE BECAUSE I COULDN'T MAKE IT INTO THE BRACKET) to tell me how good I am, how about this? You guys are obviously the pinnacle of video evaluation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GkW__7kSwk

Yea take that, I brought DRPP to one stock in a recorded friendly, so take that... again.

I don't take any form of hatred towards me lightly, which makes me easy bait for trolling, so I'm warning the people who care about this thread that things are most likely going to get really dumb if **** continues.