Marth Match Up Thread. Being Redone Soon.

[xios73]

i think marth is probably 5th best although hes not that far away from the other 4. I think some people are overating the marth-sheik match up. sheik clearly wins but its no where near 70-30 as someone mentioned above.
Besides sheik, Marth doesnt have any bad match ups that really stand out. I think marth does better vs fox than sheik does (marth fox is about 50-50 whereas fox beats sheik slightly 55-45 imo). He also does better vs puff than falco and sheik do. Marth doesnt seem to have any bad match ups against fox falco and puff, who many consider to be the top characters in the current metagame.

I will agree with Niko that marth is hindered by his lack of a reliable kill move. He relies on edgeguarding and gimps. The problem is when u rely on those, its impossible to be consistent. Fox has his standard up throw uair, and shine into upsmash/grab, sheik has reliable kills out of her throws and tilts, falco has reliable stuff out of his shine and his bair is a great killing move. With marth, u might be able to get an early edgeguard or a gimp, but thats easier said than done and not reliable against really smart players who make good choices.

Also, people need to stop throwing in the Ken/Azen argument. Ken/Azen are ancient compared to todays metagame, and iirc m2k even stated himself that he ***** both of them with marth at mlg vegas, which was both ken and azen's prime. Just because they dominated 5 years ago means NOTHING as to what marth can do in todays metagame.

Overall though, there is a lot of "marth sux he cant compete in todays metagame" talk, which might actually be making him slightly UNDERATED. Overall tho, its hard to say he is better than any of the other top 4, but hes certainly close imo.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

the metagame hasn't changed very much since 06. mostly its just been perfecting things that were already there. i think the last real metagame increase was the lightshield edgehog on marth, and everything else is just using known techniques better than they were being used before.

m2k beat both of those players when they were finishing their careers. Their prime was 05-06.

 

[Tee ay eye]

I will agree with Niko that marth is hindered by his lack of a reliable kill move. He relies on edgeguarding and gimps. The problem is when u rely on those, its impossible to be consistent.

this is actually something that i'd really like to see everyone's ideas/thoughts on

 

[Staco]

Staco your argument just sucks... We don't have any good Marth players? How about Marth has no safe kill move from 100-170 on like 90% of the cast? How about the fact that unlike other top tiers he has extremely snaggy matchups that other characters don't have? Sure if Marth just has to play spacies the whole time he can win tournaments just fine, but look at HBK in the pound bracket - best Ganon followed by gayest sheik. It's extremely difficult to overcome that kind of draw with Marth. If he'd gotten foxes the whole time who knows how far he would have gone. Pretty sure IB drew KK in bracket too. The problem with Marth is you can't control who you come up against in tournament and those tough matchups will make consistency impossible with marth.

I talked about top Marth players and not just good players. (top = top 10 of the world or sth. like that)
Players like Mango, Armada, M2K etc.
People mostly just look at this players when they rate MUs.

 

[xios73]

the metagame hasn't changed very much since 06. mostly its just been perfecting things that were already there. i think the last real metagame increase was the lightshield edgehog on marth, and everything else is just using known techniques better than they were being used before.

m2k beat both of those players when they were finishing their careers. Their prime was 05-06.

the metagame has changed a lotttttttttt since 06. Its not just about techniques, such as lightsheilding. Its the fact that people are wayyyyy smarter today than they were back in 06. If ken/azen at their prime played the top sheik/falco/fox/puff players of today, i can assure u that they would get wrecked terribly. Ask any top player and they will admit that to you.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I will agree with Niko that marth is hindered by his lack of a reliable kill move. He relies on edgeguarding and gimps. The problem is when u rely on those, its impossible to be consistent. Fox has his standard up throw uair, and shine into upsmash/grab, sheik has reliable kills out of her throws and tilts, falco has reliable stuff out of his shine and his bair is a great killing move. With marth, u might be able to get an early edgeguard or a gimp, but thats easier said than done and not reliable against really smart players who make good choices.

this is actually something that i'd really like to see everyone's ideas/thoughts on

Thats reliable kill combos from stage. From the same logic, puff less kill moves because she can only combo into rests at low percents while marth can combo into fsmash and spikes up until ~90%

Marth does have kill moves, you just have to be smart with how you land them and you can't **** up when the opponent should be dead.

 

[P. O. F.]

this is actually something that i'd really like to see everyone's ideas/thoughts on

I actually think that this is one of the main reasons why Marth is actually third. Marth can turn the tide of a match so quickly with being gay near the ledge. Think about it, why is MaNg0 amazing? He's stupid off stage. Why was M2K so good for so long? He was gay off stage.

Honestly, what can Falcon, Falco, and Fox do when you are off stage? Fox is so limited to shine and bair and Falco pretty much just has bair which is still IMO risky. You literally with most of the characters in the game have to wait on stage and THEN react to what they do. People fear Marths ledge game more than anything. IMO, I'd rather deal with Jigs than a Marth.

edge guarding tier list def goes....IMO

Jigs
Marth
Sheik

Marths creativity, tech chase ability, grab game, control of platforms, and marths amazing disjointed hitboxes make him one of the most unpredictable and most shananigans like character in the entire game. I still strongly believe that Marth still has room for creativity off stage.


Think about it, if we space perfectly NOTHING beats our u tilt if we are attacked from above (this includes Falco and Falcons dairs) or our fair (jigs pound does but you can't l cancel it....) and I THINK our d tilt as well.

Marth is a magnificent character who does not struggle too much (aside from Sheik) if your spacing on stage is good and execution off stage is good. Plus his recovery is much better than Sheik and I think does better on more stages than her.



This game is about match ups and stages and being annoying/stupid and killing people in dumb ways....not "safe kill moves" or "quick combos" Combos was so 2004.

 

[otg]

I actually think that this is one of the main reasons why Marth is actually third. Marth can turn the tide of a match so quickly with being gay near the ledge. Think about it, why is MaNg0 amazing? He's stupid off stage. Why was M2K so good for so long? He was gay off stage.

I stopped reading after this paragraph, but I'm going to just enlighten you on something. Marth is brutal by the edge, but that's only if your opponent is dumb enough to just casually walk up to you and give you that opportunity. Smart player/spacies aren't going to let that **** happen unless they are forced offstage via a finisher or are tech chased there.

Also, Mango is amazing because he has some of the best tech skill, creativity in his combos and reads that are just out of this world. One of the big reasons I think he caught m2k off guard (in particular as falco) is that he never gave m2k any chances to gimp him, because he never approached the ledge and has **** near perfect tech skill which just ***** marth.

 

[P. O. F.]

I stopped reading after this paragraph, but I'm going to just enlighten you on something. Marth is brutal by the edge, but that's only if your opponent is dumb enough to just casually walk up to you and give you that opportunity. Smart player/spacies aren't going to let that **** happen unless they are forced offstage via a finisher or are tech chased there.

Ummm get a lead and camp ledge? Fox is so easy to bait into attacking you. lol.

When you have a lead in any fighter, you are forced to approach.

Falco and Sheik are different because they can camp better.

 

[AceDudeyeah]

Dreamland's usually a bad stage for marth, but in the fox matchup it's more neutral because of the high ceiling right?

What are some other CP's on fox?
I used to take almost anyone to Poke'mon stadium, my 2nd home, but doesn't it have a lower than usual ceiling?

 

[BBQ°]

I've been thinking about the Marth vs Jiggs matchup.

What if Marth camped the uppermost platform on stages like Dreamland and Battlefield?

Sure, Marth is weak from below, but I think Jiggs can only upair him right? That can be easily avoided by just stalling in the air with jumps/side b's or downairing jiggs through the platform. You can easily see her attacks coming because her jumps are too slow, and she has limited options from underneath platforms (I think?). Jiggs can try the normal strategy and back air, but she'll have to land on the lower platforms to refresh her jumps.

What do you guys think?

 

[otg]

Lasers say hi. You know, they force marth to approach and stuff, so unless he takes a stock lead he can't get away with this really.

 

[ComboTurtle]

imo someone else should write the mu thread

 

[BBQ°]

the matchup thread also needs to be redone.

A lot are outdated.

Peach 70/30?
Jiggs 75/25?

Those two are laughable. Others aren't has extreme but still need to be updated.

 

[P. O. F.]

Peach is easily 60-40 and Jigs is 60-40 as well MAYBE 50-50. I talked to Darc about it.

 

[Europhoria]

this is actually something that i'd really like to see everyone's ideas/thoughts on

It's kinda true... but not really >_> I think he's kinda limited by a reliable/efficient set up from grab/really safe moves to spam in a way that other good characters aren't like... Falcon would have down/up throw to knee, up-throw up-air, Falco moves, etc. Most of your kills are from edge guards and iunno, if you can't force them into 1 then it can be a problem and a stack can drag out long randomly.

It's a lot more obvious vs. Peach and floaties then fast fallers which is what people look at (vs. the 3 fast fallers I feel this problem never exists). I also don't think it comes up til higher % because at lower % you can always tech chase/set up into an edge guard or kill really easily. Your guarenteed kills at the higher % are just comparatively really lag heavy (f-smash, up+b, whatever)

Iunno, it's not that bad ultimately. You can still kill from a grab or a late f-air or whatever else easily, you just might have to catch them with bad DI or read a tech or whatever. Once they're off stage it'll be ok lol

 

[mintyrice]

after quite a long hiatus, i have started playing melee again ^^

sorry if this has already been posted, but does anyone have some specific tips vs samus that have NOT been covered in the matchup guide?

the problem lies in that, though camping by itself isn't too difficult (jabbing through missiles and shielding charge shots) approaching is extremely frustrating to me.

utilizing the fact that i cant really camp forever, because eventually ill mess up and take damage, he just sits there and spams jump canceled missiles. the only way suggested in this thread is to slowly walk and ftilt, but when i finally reach a good distance and begin to apply pressure, he will just wavedash in and ftilt, or CC downsmash whatever move i try. Approaching with a fair seems to fail because he sees me jump and wavedashes backward and ftilts which hits me out of it, ftilting doesnt seem to work because he crouch cancels it and downsmashes me, and of course i dont feel like fsmashing as if it misses i get an fsmash in my face in return

and if i shield then he just grabs me, down throw -> free nair (usually)

so my question is, how do players usually approach an EXTREMELY campy samus with marth
(yes, i know we arent supposed to approach, but one can't stand there forever >.< )

edit: and to make things worse, if i DO manage to hit him because he messes up, which thankfully happens more than it should, he just quickly retreats to the other end of the course and begins camping again. rushing in without abandon ensures me a CC dsmash to the face EVERY time ) :

help! any videos or advice would seriously be great

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

1. you can shield camp samus all day. you can go off reaction to see the grab start then just jump out of shield. she can't grab someone in the air, so you can come down and get a free fsmash or whatever.

2. samus can CC marth's fair, but not a spaced nair. Nair also beats spot dodge. And missles.

3. dtilt can't be CCed either, knocks him away far enough to avoid punish but allow follow up from you, and has very low lag. Once you're in close (so he can't missile) you can lock him down with dtilts, fairs and nairs.

4. if you learn to powershield missiles (as an approach), i'm sure he will think twice about spamming them all day.

 

[Dart]

yeah, that was my main problem with IHSB i haven't played enough samus' to react to that **** grab lag frames yet. so he would grab me alot more than he should. which is never.

 

[mintyrice]

1. you can shield camp samus all day. you can go off reaction to see the grab start then just jump out of shield. she can't grab someone in the air, so you can come down and get a free fsmash or whatever.

2. samus can CC marth's fair, but not a spaced nair. Nair also beats spot dodge. And missles.

3. dtilt can't be CCed either, knocks him away far enough to avoid punish but allow follow up from you, and has very low lag. Once you're in close (so he can't missile) you can lock him down with dtilts, fairs and nairs.

4. if you learn to powershield missiles (as an approach), i'm sure he will think twice about spamming them all day.

thanks! what would you follow up a dtilt with!
and also, what are some ways you prefer to edgeguard samus
(my friend likes to bomb jump, then sweetspot the ledge with the grapple; its very difficult to take a stock off him because i really am stumped as to how to keep him off the stage, consequently i have to fsmash more, which gives him more opportunities to punish me)

is there any way to punish a wavedash ftilt from samus? or is it too fast
my friend basically uses just that to space and prevent me from closing in

 

[KirbyKaze]

Samus cannot CC a spaced Marth Fair

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

At lower percents she can. I just tested in AR, and its not until around 80% that she gets knocked down from the tipper fair. She does get pushed away from marth, though, and usually a tipped fairs will go unpunished depending on how low you did it and if the opponent SDIs toward you or something.

 

[mintyrice]

my problem is more that the samus anticipates the fair..because i literally approach with it every time, and just wavedashes back and ftilts to punish

im working on using dtilt and shield camping
i have difficulty reacting fast enough when shield camping to prevent them from grabbing

if you see samus prepare for a grab should you reverse up B out of shield? or immediately jump and nair/fair? (this is if you are right next to them)

ive been watching a lot of videos...it seems as if the dtilt can hit sweetspotted recoveries if timed right...?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

what i do is jump out of shield then fast fall and charge a smash as long as you can. I wouldn't rely on it too much, but shielding is pretty safe against samus compared to other characters.

 

[mintyrice]

what i do is jump out of shield then fast fall and charge a smash as long as you can. I wouldn't rely on it too much, but shielding is pretty safe against samus compared to other characters.

genius thanks for all the help! ( :

 

[KirbyKaze]

At lower percents she can. I just tested in AR, and its not until around 80% that she gets knocked down from the tipper fair. She does get pushed away from marth, though, and usually a tipped fairs will go unpunished depending on how low you did it and if the opponent SDIs toward you or something.

I should have clarified to "she cannot punish a spaced tipped Fair via CC".

 

[P. O. F.]

I like Kirbykaze roaming my thread. I love you man.

Anytime Samus is in the air make sure you tipper every single ****ing aerial you do or nair will **** you. (Luigi Much?)

I see Samus now as being a mix of Peach and Luigi (nair stupidity) really. u throw at really low percents is nice to utilt to fairs and stuff. Later on in % F throw is better because of her bombs its not really easy to juggle her with uair/utilt.

It relates to peach because you **** the recovery....

you just need to be very patient. If Samus UpB's you should be really happy because if you get the timing right....it's a free Fsmash most of the time. It's really hard to sweetspot her upB so an fsmash is great.The speed of her upB is weeiiirrddd....but just learn it and you'll be fine. Be patient.

Fsmash > d tilt for the edge guard because good Samus's ALWAYS recover with bomb jump and tether so just get that kill. If they bomb jump just go into drop zone and get them nervous. You don't need to hit them exactly, but just getting the Samus nervous will mess up her recovery and may cause them to not space their upB right or tether too early while you fair them, etc.

and it relates to luigi because of the priority of their nairs. Err they are gay.

IMO; if you can avoid Samus's nair, be patient while edge guarding, and not get hit by stupid charge shot baits...you'll be fine. I used to HATE this match up because I kept trying to approach her. LOL. Make Samus's THINK you are going to approach...but don't.

use d tilt and fair on the ground and don't be predictable with your grab game unless you like eating UpB, NEVER nair, if Samus is in the air have a good time but make sure to tipper and space nicely.

thats it for me gentleman.




Remember: They are more afraid of us and our sword.

 

[_wzrd]

i have some problems with campy peach...some tips on either outcamping her/baiting her into approaching, what to do some against some of her approaches?
i cant think of any specific approaches etc i have a problem with, but if you start talkin maybe i can elaborate on problems as i see em?

 

[Nø Ca$h]

what the peach is trying to do is use turnips to make u SH. once u SH, peach will dash attack under u.

one of the armada vs m2k @pound4 matchs has husband and wife commentating and they explain it REALLY well (which i cant do it that well lol)

 

[Tee ay eye]

if samus uses her upB, cant you just do a shffl spike?

i always used fsmash, but someone told me to just do that yesterday

also, random question cuz im too lazy to test

which of marth's moves can edgeguard doc's up B? (and peach's)

i'd imagine a well spaced fsmash working, but im far to lazy to set up my cube (and bring my TV back into my room) and test esp cuz im about to leave for chiptle

 

[Mars-]

lol samus blows vs marth. when she is in the air she can't do anything against marth unless u do a laggy move, but u don't have to just wait for her to miss a move. a well space marth move beats nair all day long. samus also has really bad approaches like following missiles is the only safe approach vs marth but marth can nair through missiles and still hit samus with that nair. samus has u and b which is laughable in this match just space your attacks when you hit her shield lol. then if she tries it and misses u got like free hits on her until she hits the ground. cc can't punish a spaced fair is true but lol that is too hard to do unless u are mango just dair/nair. also samus' only shield options is jump/wd/up and b keep that in mind. oh also if you hit her out of her grapple while she is recovering if she goes low just grab the edge.

 

[GALE 14]

i never thougt that sheik is a problem for marth....

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Orly ?

 

[P. O. F.]

which of marth's moves can edgeguard doc's up B? (and peach's)

d tilt is your best option. Same goes for Mario and Luigi as well. Remember that Luigis up B only goes straight up so d tilt him to that weird 35 degree angle and than doing a fair is pretty nice or just edge hogging.

i never thougt that sheik is a problem for marth....

Are we playing the same game?



I swear to god I am going to do the videos very soon. Keep Forgetting. ahhh

 

[Dart]

d tilt is your best option. Same goes for Mario and Luigi as well. Remember that Luigis up B only goes straight up so d tilt him to that weird 35 degree angle and than doing a fair is pretty nice or just edge hogging.



Are we playing the same game?



I swear to god I am going to do the videos very soon. Keep Forgetting. ahhh

No johns!

i second'd the bold. if you play a sheik that knows how to space ftilt, grabs, dtilt, and fair then unless you space fair like a mutha f**** then you don't have much of a chance

 

[Tero.]

Are we playing the same game?

Actually you are not.
Guessing from his location he's probably playing PAL.

And even tho the MU might not be as bad in PAL, it's still a little bit in Sheiks favor.

 

[Dart]

Actually you are not.
Guessing from his location he's probably playing PAL.

And even tho the MU might not be as bad in PAL, it's still a little bit in Sheiks favor.

i wonder why, without those guaranteed grab combos sheik should get wrecked by marth.

 

[P. O. F.]

i wonder why, without those guaranteed grab combos sheik should get wrecked by marth.

As a character with one bad match up this is a key reason as to why I still think Marth is third best. Also, with the stages being a lot more balanced after pound 4 Marth really is pretty dominant on most stages. No more Mute City or Poke Floats. Marth is god awful on poke floats and really only is par on Mute City.

Honestly, what do you guys think of Kongo Jungle? I know it is a bad Marth stage but I personally do not mind it so much VS floaties. Falco? Fox? Falcon? Get me the hell out of there. But I don't mind it VS floaties or Sheik actually.

 

[Dart]

As a character with one bad match up this is a key reason as to why I still think Marth is third best. Also, with the stages being a lot more balanced after pound 4 Marth really is pretty dominant on most stages. No more Mute City or Poke Floats. Marth is god awful on poke floats and really only is par on Mute City.

Honestly, what do you guys think of Kongo Jungle? I know it is a bad Marth stage but I personally do not mind it so much VS floaties. Falco? Fox? Falcon? Get me the hell out of there. But I don't mind it VS floaties or Sheik actually.

Believe it or not this stage is very good against falco and i'd say this is probably your best BIG stage vs falcon. *idk but falcons seem to think this is a super bad stage for marth? i don't see it tbh* and i'd say you can stand your ground vs fox. although i'd say its not bad, fox probably has the advantage but its definitely viable vs falco IMO.

and its BADNEWSBEARS to go there vs sheik, her recovery i think is harder to beat here...while the ledge isn't very safe the stage is big enough for her jump plus recovery or switch to zelda due to it being huge will still help her out. finally verdict, definitely not a good place for you. i'd say mute city would be a great place for you if you get her off then shes got very very very very very few options recovery, but this applies to you as well so be careful.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

Believe it or not this stage is very good against falco and i'd say this is probably your best BIG stage vs falcon. *idk but falcons seem to think this is a super bad stage for marth? i don't see it tbh* and i'd say you can stand your ground vs fox. although i'd say its not bad, fox probably has the advantage but its definitely viable vs falco IMO.

and its BADNEWSBEARS to go there vs sheik, her recovery i think is harder to beat here...while the ledge isn't very safe the stage is big enough for her jump plus recovery or switch to zelda due to it being huge will still help her out. finally verdict, definitely not a good place for you. i'd say mute city would be a great place for you if you get her off then shes got very very very very very few options recovery, but this applies to you as well so be careful.

You're right about it being a bad place to face a Fox and Sheik (though Fox only if he is super gay and camps; an aggressive Fox will get wrecked), but know that Kongo Jungle is Falcon's playground. Don't **** with him there. He is a monster techchasing there, is allowed to recover top, bottom, through the stage, or into the barrel, and his high initial jumps allow him to use the platforms better than Marth.

Kongo Jungle is generally a stage that isn't friendly to Marth. It doesn't see too much play unless you are against Falcon or Sheik, so it usually isn't worth wasting your ban.